Brass Chasers


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Remllez
May 22, 2012, 09:01 PM
I shoot center fire revolvers almost exclusively and had a very close call with a "Brass Chaser" today at an indoor range. I noticed him when I first walked in because he was shooting two lanes to my right but was picking up brass in my lane from a previous shooter and I had to tell him to move so I could set up my gear.

I don't like people hovering/flitting about when I shoot and there is no real Range Officer there just a couple counter persons who are busy doing lots of other things. For the most part self policing seems to work fairly well and any complaints brought to the staff are dealt with quickly and fairly.

I ran a target out, loaded my revolver and shot almost a box of shells dropped the empties left my cylinder open sat my gun down ran the target back in, took a half step backwards and tripped on that scavenger who was on his hands and knees directly behind me picking up brass AGAIN!

My first inclination was to drill him in the jaw and twenty years ago that's exactly what I would have done. My impulse control is much better now but I still lit him up loud enough to make the range go quiet and draw the staffs attention who were there in seconds.

All of us went into the classroom and had a spirited conversation which led to him being told to pack up and then he was escorted to his car. He will not be allowed back for a year, Personally I think he should never be allowed back.

Just recently there was a thread on THR about people not being allowed to pick up/take home their brass and I thought it was bogus, but now I have changed my mind and no longer think it's unreasonable. All manner of bad things could've happened in this situation. I'm pretty sure that because of this guy there may be a similar ban put in place at this range.

So what do you think was this guy/situation dealt with properly?

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joed
May 22, 2012, 09:13 PM
Perfect solution. There is a time to pick up brass and a time when you let it sit. I pick up brass myself but only when I deem it is safe to do so.

franx1911a
May 22, 2012, 09:15 PM
I think it just shows the difference between me policing my own brass and someone being an inconsiderate jerk. I think you and the range dealt with him properly!

B!ngo
May 22, 2012, 09:52 PM
Sounds like a perfect solution and I don't think that this is an example that illustrates why no one should be allowed to police brass at a range. Rather, the brass owner should be able to police their own brass (and any other brass) found in their stall, and any other of their brass in adjacent stalls so long as those stalls are empty.
B

DeadFlies
May 22, 2012, 10:03 PM
Perfect solution. There is a time to pick up brass and a time when you let it sit. I pick up brass myself but only when I deem it is safe to do so.
This.

I infrequently go to an indoor range and I would never think of picking up even my own brass even though I feel that it is mine and I have the right to do so. The lanes are very close together and there just isn't enough room to crawl around on the floor picking up brass without getting underfoot and creating a safety hazard as well as looking like a buffoon.

It sucks because there is always a ton of brass on the floor but sometimes you just gotta let it go...

Black Knight
May 22, 2012, 10:17 PM
You should have just stepped back and tripped over him. Then you could sue him for causing your back to be thrown out.

browningguy
May 22, 2012, 10:22 PM
Sounds like quite an overreaction to me. Probably a simple statement to move out of your range area would have been sufficient.

It worries me that people with guns can't control themselves any better than this, and a lot of people seem to support it.

rcmodel
May 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
I shot at an indoor range one time with a guy who marked his brass with a red magic-marker.

It so happens I marked mine with the same color.

By mutual friendly agreement, both of us spent more time sorting out brass by headstamp then we did shooting.

It justs shows there are extremes at both ends of the spectrum.

rc

Scimmia
May 22, 2012, 10:32 PM
Sounds like quite an overreaction to me. Probably a simple statement to move out of your range area would have been sufficient.

It worries me that people with guns can't control themselves any better than this, and a lot of people seem to support it.

Thievery itself bothers me more than people getting upset about it.

C5rider
May 22, 2012, 10:51 PM
I've recently gotten back into shooting and last year, I decided to start reloading. That said, I find myself walking around the range, looking down a lot. :D

I try to be courteous to others around me and show interest in their firearms as well as what I'm shooting. I'm always learning. Our range has a rule that if the person shooting doesn't mind, so long as the brass is on the floor, you can pick it up WHEN SAFE TO DO SO. If it goes in the trash can, it's the range's brass.

I've asked some folks around me if they reload and, if not, would they mind me picking up the brass if it's a caliber that I reload. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they don't. That's fine and I respect that but, I still can't get past the feeling of being the kid in the lunchroom saying, "Uh, yeah, you gonna eat that?"

Some say you get over it, sometimes I think it also helps keep us courteous.

Either way, I don't believe there is any place for guns around heated tempers.

Shadow 7D
May 22, 2012, 11:02 PM
Indoor range had a guy who came every 30 minutes or so and a cease fire was called as he swept the firing line, to remove the fall hazard (and they had the OSHA signs and everything)

They also clearly stated that you either policed your own brass or they policed it for you.

Powerglide
May 22, 2012, 11:04 PM
Why can't common sense win, just once? This world is becoming one big WTH!

ApacheCoTodd
May 22, 2012, 11:47 PM
Let's give it a name. You bought it, you brought it, you shot it and you were not given reasonable time to pick it up... That name is theft.

Fishslayer
May 23, 2012, 03:29 AM
That brass rat was me before I learned better.:uhoh:

I don't scurry around anymore but be assured... I am watching. ;)

I generally ask the people around me if they're saving their brass. If not, I'll clean up the area. If they are, I generally help out with their collection. I've got plenty and most at my range don't reload.

doc2rn
May 23, 2012, 03:37 AM
Personally I dont mind when someone asks if I am going to be reusing my brass, usually its a no because I only have dies for two calibers .32 and 9mm. I dont mind reloaders who wait for the line to go cold to pick up empties, but if they intrude on my AO then its a completely different matter. :cuss:
I think some manner of dicorum needs to be set forth to keep scroungers out/off the line. I have tripped over two men trying to catch my brass as it litterally hit the ground. It wasnt until later when the RO chuckling came over and said that I did it while holding my weapon in a downrange mode the whole time which really impressed him. He was happy someone told both of those idiots to "get" as he was about to the next time the line went cold...why wait? Accidents with firearms are permanent and unforgetable and its best to avoid them completely. You cant fix stupid!

danprkr
May 23, 2012, 04:00 AM
This PART of the reason I hate indoor ranges. I normally shoot at private outdoor range, we put a large tarp down, shoot all day, fold the tarp, take it home, spread it out, and pick our brass up out of it. The 22 and steel cased goes into the recycling. No fuss, no muss.

MachIVshooter
May 23, 2012, 04:06 AM
My impulse control is much better now but I still lit him up loud enough to make the range go quiet and draw the staffs attention who were there in seconds.

Hmmm.....better, but not great. What he was doing was foolish, even unsafe. However, what you did will also be judged by others and was probably not necessary. If you were loud enough to distract other shooters, you also created a potential hazard; Get a few inexperienced or careless folks on the line, you may have hot weapons facing in all the wrong directions while people crane around to see what the ruckus is.

Seems that you were both lacking manners and a bit of common sense.

I'd not be happy about nearly tripping over someone on the ground behind me doing what he was, but I certainly wouldn't begin hollering at him right off the bat. More like "Hey, woah, what are you doing? That's dangerous, and you need to wait until the range is clear. Got it?"

Try that kind of approach first. If the other fellow gets lippy, then summon an RO or staff member. Otherwise, try to handle the situation like two adults in a controlled but potentially dangerous environment with no room for tempers.

jcwit
May 23, 2012, 04:46 AM
My first inclination was to drill him in the jaw and twenty years ago that's exactly what I would have done. My impulse control is much better now but I still lit him up loud enough to make the range go quiet and draw the staffs attention who were there in seconds.

WOW, just WOW! Sounds to me like someone needs some people skills and instruction on how to handle folks without going off into an anger fit.

Regarding the drilling the guy in the jaw, try that with me, and you'd better have your attorney handy very shortly, you will be in court with all kinds of charges filed, and yes I do have a very good attorney that loves cases such as this, he's my nephew. I do not take anyone striking me for any reason lightly.

With all of the above said, what the other fellow was out of line, yes, but the whole deal was handled wrong. IMO

Zoogster
May 23, 2012, 05:18 AM
I remember when nobody paid attention to brass. I would go to some ranges with 5 years worth of old brass piled 6 inches on the ground, it was like unique artistic gravel for ranges. You could shovel it like dirt.


The only people that cared were those who reloaded and were trying to recover their own brass, they still rarely went after strange brass left on the ground even on an empty range.

This changed something like 5 years ago?


Now you got desperate Joe everywhere picking up single casings as they become available.


The word is out, the good ol days of that cool sounding metallic gravel made up of tens of thousands of pieces of brass is gone. Now you have to retrieve your own brass before it bounces if you are into reloading or some inconsiderate thief might swoop down on it before you finish your current magazine.




But my own brass, personally I wouldn't go to a range that didn't let me recover my own brass because reloading doesn't really save you money or let you shoot more for your money if you use a new case each time.
In fact I don't even like indoor ranges because the brass bounces off the stalls rather than nicely accumulating several feet to the side in a convenient spot.

Hunterdad
May 23, 2012, 07:25 AM
Regarding the drilling the guy in the jaw, try that with me, and you'd better have your attorney handy very shortly, you will be in court with all kinds of charges filed, and yes I do have a very good attorney that loves cases such as this, he's my nephew. I do not take anyone striking me for any reason lightly.

If I was the guy picking up brass, which almost caused someone to trip over me, I would expect to get drilled in the jaw. This world is full of stupid people and the last place they belong is at a range.

btg3
May 23, 2012, 07:40 AM
The outcome may be reasonable. The process in gettting there is questionable.

This could have been a win-win, instead of a win-lose... but then, the chest thumping would seem out of place.

beatledog7
May 23, 2012, 07:44 AM
Perhaps the thing most lacking in the world today is good sense. The brass snatcher in this story exhibits a lack of it, no doubt. But the earlier thread about ranges disallowing brass pick-up of any kind is another example.

To most of us who have responded to either thread, neither extreme is sensible. Therefore, the right answer must lie somewhere in between.

If I ever own a range, I'll require each shooter to police all brass that lands in his or her lane aft of the firing lane, and whether he or she keeps it or chucks it in the bucket is a personal choice. Forward of the line, I'll have a range employee sweep up, and I'll market the brass in some way.

Those policies would not preclude shooters from offering the brass they police to other shooters, but it would make brass outside any given shooter's lane off limits to that shooter, thus keeping shooters in their own lanes.

Nushif
May 23, 2012, 08:10 AM
I love how there has to be a hard rule at either end of the extreme. NOBODY EVER PICKS UP BRASS or I PICK UP MY BRASS WHEN I WANT ... and we're the ones touting "common sense" all the time?

AethelstanAegen
May 23, 2012, 10:00 AM
Quote:
My first inclination was to drill him in the jaw and twenty years ago that's exactly what I would have done. My impulse control is much better now but I still lit him up loud enough to make the range go quiet and draw the staffs attention who were there in seconds.
WOW, just WOW! Sounds to me like someone needs some people skills and instruction on how to handle folks without going off into an anger fit.

+1 I can understand why you'd be angry, but creating a huge scene and having a first instinct to escalate things by starting a fight in a room full of loaded guns just seems like poor judgement. I think a calm word between you and the range officers would have been a much safer way to go about it and would have had the same end result. Frankly, if I were the range officer and I saw you go off on a guy like that, I'd be concerned about you coming to the range as well.

340PD
May 23, 2012, 10:45 AM
As a range officer I am always on the firing line. We made a "brass sweeper" out of wood. Not much more than a floor broom without the bristles. If I see a person that is saving brass I ask them if they care if it is general range brass. If so, I can redirect enough brass of their caliber into their stall to keep them happy and not interfere with other shooters. Otherwise we sweep it out into the shooting lanes to keep it out from underfoot. Usually everyone is happy with this solution.

Prince Yamato
May 23, 2012, 11:08 AM
Was it really necessary to shame the guy? I don't reload at all but I think
yelling at him when you could calmly have told him why he can't be scurrying around would have sufficed.

Drama belongs on stage, not at the gun range.

Dentite
May 23, 2012, 11:13 AM
There are two ways to tell the guy what he's doing isn't safe.

The way you did it will cause him to forever think of you as a d-bag.

Another way could have caused him to actually take it to heart and better understand range safety.

And the way you "would have done it 20 years ago" by punching him could land you in jail and lawyer fees. But wow you are tough right?!

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
Seems like a bit of a "dogpile" at this point.

Some folks are insensitive to others, and place their desire to scavenge semi-valuable range brass above propriety, to the point that sometimes even range safety could be compromised. That is not cool, and should not be tolerated. Nobody needs to have a short fuse, though. A carefully chosen, polite but firm, word of correction -- perhaps delivered by the range Staff instead of by the shooter himself -- would be the most appropriate response.

Having said that, I think it safe to at least hope that Remllz's reaction was not quite so over-the-top as it became in the re-telling of it. We all do that from time to time, right? Find ourselves in a terse situation that ends without too much strife, but when the story comes out later there's a little, "I'd ah knocked his head CLEAN OFF iff'n he'd a gimme one reason ta!" thrown in for flavor.

Brass vultures and brass wasters have managed to get along more or less without killing each other for generations now. No real reason I can see for running to any extremes simply to head off the (rare) occasional fellow who gets out of bounds one way or another. Someone's making an unsafe situation, call the range COLD and explain the problem, maybe even use a little psychology: "Hey, we'll all stop so you can pick up that brass, if that's what you want. Maybe next time, though, you could wait for us to be done?" Someone stealing your brass? "Hey, just so you know, I was going to save that. I reload too. But if you're real short, I could spare some. Do you need more?" ;)

Be polite but firm in safety matters. Be forgiving and long-suffering in all other things. Be the good you'd like to see in the world, right?

Strange Bob
May 23, 2012, 12:18 PM
Have to agree with those who feel a measured calm response to be by far the better path to take. This thread and the guy taking pics at the range thread both picture an unneeded angry response.

I see this as our society becomes a society that percieves itself individually self important. This "me first" society will is sad to me. What happened to politeness? What happened to the common sense approach of an armed society being a polite society?

Very immature if these things went down as relayed here. Danged shame!

Rail Driver
May 23, 2012, 12:21 PM
I've stepped on the fingers of "brass-vultures" before (not on PURPOSE - I'm clumsy like that). It generally keeps them away from me on the firing line. My .45ACP brass isn't cheap, and I pay for it - taking it is no different than stealing from me.

Arkansas Paul
May 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
Why can't common sense win, just once?


This pretty much says it all for me.

I scrounge for brass myself, but not around people's lane and not when I think the brass may belong to someone else when they're still standing there.
I do watch people shoot and silently hope that they leave their brass behind when they leave. I only shoot at an outdoor range BTW. I have also seen people about to start picking up their brass, and noticed they were shooting ammo from factory boxes. I have asked if they handload. If they say yes, it has at times led to an interesting conversation. If they say no, I tell them I do and that I would be glad to pick their brass up for them. It saves them time and keeps me in brass. Win-win.

But don't be an idiot, like the guy the OP is talking about. Be respectful, and considerate. Walking near someone else and picking up brass they just shot is just plain stealing.

Double Vision
May 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
Recently a guy at my outdoor range was wandering around with one of the brass roller devices picking up everything in sight - including my .45 ACP brass while it was still being ejected!

I caught him out of the corner of my eye. Since the line was still hot I had to give him the international look and hand signal for "don't touch my brass". :)

blarby
May 23, 2012, 01:51 PM
Huge difference between the bad lot, and the good lot.

Sorry you encountered a "vulture".

Not all of us are that way.

qwert65
May 23, 2012, 02:22 PM
I usually have people ask me if I reload and since I don't they usually pick up my brass for me- win-win
However, if someone is a half step behind someone's knees on a HOT range(allowing someone to fall backward with finger on the trigger), they deserve a punch in the mouth.

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 02:30 PM
if someone is a half step behind someone's knees on a HOT range(allowing someone to fall backward with finger on the trigger), they deserve a punch in the mouth.
Why do we go right to the caveman-dumb ape response? Hey, that's guy's causing a potentially dangerous condition. I think the best thing to do is commit assault! :rolleyes:

Folks, we have GOT to be better than this.

And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man just because he was too close behind, picking up brass. Even if he was stealing (Oh, the horrors!) your brass our from under you.

And if you would -- you really, really would -- LEAVE. You're going to (rightfully) end up in jail and we don't want to be associated with you in any way!

:fire:

Rail Driver
May 23, 2012, 02:42 PM
Why do we go right to the caveman-dumb ape response? Hey, that's guy's causing a potentially dangerous condition. I think the best thing to do is commit assault! :rolleyes:

Folks, we have GOT to be better than this.

And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man just because he was too close behind, picking up brass. Even if he was stealing (Oh, the horrors!) your brass our from under you.

And if you would -- you really, really would -- LEAVE. You're going to (rightfully) end up in jail and we don't want to be associated with you in any way!

:fire:
While I agree with Sam1911, to a point - I'm also of the opinion that stupidity should be painful.

Stealing my brass is a crime - criminal negligence (crawling around on the ground at my feet while I'm shooting) is also a crime - You should hear the laughter from the county sheriff's office when you call to report something like that.

A "stern talking to" usually does about as much good as calling the cops to be laughed at.

So lets get right down to the point - We can't assault the guy for having the nerve to endanger the lives of everyone on the shooting line and the gall to steal my brass out from under me before it even has a chance to cool... Talking to him is unlikely to do any good or prevent it from happening again... The cops don't think such a petty crime is worth a response... Where does that leave us? Suck it up and deal with it or leave? Sorry, but carrying a gun imparts certain responsibilities - folding at the first sign of opposition and refusing to speak up for yourself are not part of that.

Ryanxia
May 23, 2012, 02:51 PM
Generally if you're picking up someone else's brass you ask or wait for them to pack up and leave. And that's what most people do.

Arkansas Paul
May 23, 2012, 03:02 PM
Rail Driver, you're right that while technically a crime, it would get laughed at by the authorities. However, if you resort to physical violence, they will not laugh. They will come, rather quickly, and you will be charged with battery, which is both a crime and a tort, so not only will you be in trouble legally, but likely have to pay some sort of restitution to the idiot you hit, even though he was an idiot.

It boils down to, "Is it worth it?" And it's not. Not by a long shot. Now, by all means, tell the moron to step away from you and/or your brass. You're also correct in that a stern talking will do as much good as anything. You're also right that we have a right to speak up for ourselves. But violence should be an absolute last resort in any situation, not the first thing that pops into our heads.

Sam pretty much nailed it for me. We need a "like" button on here for posts like that.

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 03:06 PM
Stealing my brass is a crimePretty petty crime, that. And quite arguable, considering that the range may have claims on the brass, and that it is a generally (though not necessarily, of course) discarded, waste item. So it falls in seriousness between someone stealing a few loose coins you left on the bench and someone stealing the sunflower seed shells you spat out on the ground. :rolleyes: We're going to "man up" and give someone hell over this? And expect the law, or society, to side with us against this outrage?

criminal negligence (crawling around on the ground at my feet while I'm shooting) is also a crimeEr...no one has been hurt or even grossly inconvenienced here. Crawling around on the ground is pretty par for the course at shooting ranges, as many of us do collect brass. We all need to watch what we're doing, but there is no crime being committed here just because this guy might have, hypothetically contributed to a dangerous condition by his presence.

And if there IS a crime being committed here, it is NOT one that rises to the standard of giving you an affirmative defense for assault.

You should hear the laughter from the county sheriff's office when you call to report something like that.Yes...quite.

A "stern talking to" usually does about as much good as calling the cops to be laughed at.That's not my experience at all. A polite word diffuses 99% (actually far more than that) of the daily potential conflicts and frictions most of us will ever face. Why should we expect this to be different?

But if a polite word doesn't do it, the range Staff certainly will (and DID!). So what are we worrying about here? We have to "man up" and bust this guy down for his mistakes? Why? What's the point? How are we so fragile that we've been insufferably harmed and must defend the right? Be the bigger man, folks. None of this comes close to being nearly within sight of shouting distance of something we aught to assault someone over, go to jail over, or maybe get ourselves KILLED over. Where in the world is our perspective? Are we this messed up?

So lets get right down to the point - We can't assault the guy for having the nerve to endanger the lives of everyone on the shooting line and the gall to steal my brass out from under me before it even has a chance to cool... ... no, we can't... OBVIOUSLY...

...Talking to him is unlikely to do any good or prevent it from happening again... ...again, in what world? It sure seems to work in mine! And if it doesn't? Oh well! I'm out a few cents worth of brass and maybe even decided to walk off the line to avoid this guy. We preach avoid, de-escalate, and escape in S,T,&T all the time. But we need to throw our street smarts and civility out the window when we're on the range of all places?

The cops don't think such a petty crime is worth a response... Where does that leave us? Suck it up and deal with it or leave? Sorry, but carrying a gun imparts certain responsibilities - folding at the first sign of opposition and refusing to speak up for yourself are not part of that.WHAT? There's a huge gap between "suck it up" and "leave" and that huge gap is the space in which polite people deal with the petty differences, annoyances, and frictions that inevitably happen between people everywhere. That's how society WORKS. Not by bluster and bluff and assault. Not by stridency and domination and demanding your due. But by discussion and compromise, and selflessness.

And if the principles of polite society don't resolve the conflict? Yeah, then you give the guy space and remove yourself from the problem. There's nothing on that line that's worth assault, injury, jail, death, or even heartburn.

We must chill.

GEM
May 23, 2012, 03:08 PM
I've seen the stern talking to some person who wanders in front of the shooter making ready at an IDPA match. Said person had to find other place to shoot for a bit.

Shoot Blazer Aluminum, solves the problem.

Rail Driver
May 23, 2012, 03:11 PM
However, if you resort to physical violence, they will not laugh. ...

It boils down to, "Is it worth it?" And it's not. Not by a long shot.

Sam pretty much nailed it for me. We need a "like" button on here for posts like that.

You'll note that nowhere in my post did I condone hitting someone.

As I mentioned before, I've dealt with brass vultures in the past, even to the point of accidentally stepping on their hands more than once and not feeling bad about it - Does that make me a cave-ape? I don't think so. Would I stomp somebody's hands purposefully in a similar situation? Of course not. Will I feel bad if I accidentally step on someone else's hands while they're cherry picking my brass as I drop it? Not a chance.

The point is that not saying something directly to the person doing these things does nothing more than confirm in their minds that what they are doing is ok. This results in the practice becoming more common as people see that nobody says or does anything about it. Eventually you've got a whole generation of shooters running around up and down the firing line, killing each other over empty brass casings and causing accidents in their rush to get that last treasured .357 casing.

Part of being a responsible shooter is educating other shooters that you see doing unsafe things - Lecturing a brass vulture is an annoyance, but I believe it's necessary.

BSA1
May 23, 2012, 03:12 PM
The brass chaser was there first policing his brass.

Was there some reason why you could not have waited until he was done?

kimbershot
May 23, 2012, 03:23 PM
i ask folks if i can chase brass if it appears that they don't want it. i get positive results, don't get in anyone's way and am not greedy. this way if i shoot 100 rounds, i generally retrieve 120--so i am always on the positive.

the range also sorts and sells once fired brass on the cheap. :)

alsaqr
May 23, 2012, 03:28 PM
But if a polite word doesn't do it, the range Staff certainly will (and DID!). So what are we worrying about here? We have to "man up" and bust this guy down for his mistakes? Why? What's the point? How are we so fragile that we've been insufferably harmed and must defend the right? Be the bigger man, folks. None of this comes close to being nearly within sight of shouting distance of something we aught to assault someone over, go to jail over, or maybe get ourselves KILLED over. Where in the world is our perspective? Are we this messed up?

What Sam 1911 said.

qwert65
May 23, 2012, 03:34 PM
punching the guy would be a dumb thing to do I agree. However, according to the OP he had already talked to the guy about it. Since there is a RO at this range the OP did the 100% correct thing.
Indulge me for a minute though on how potentially dangerous this guys actions were.
What if the OP had gotten hurt? What if it was an older frail shooter? If you're a senior citizen on a limited budget(obviously varies by location)Most of the ranges you can afford to shoot at don't have supervision. Remember this person has already been asked. The stealing to me is unimportant compared to the potential danger involved.
As for jumping straight to violence, most people who have been asked once don't respond any different a second time. In this case he was sent from the range(punished). Some people need to be reminded to be polite.

Double Vision
May 23, 2012, 03:43 PM
And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man...

Amen to that.

Yesterday I was in line at Lowes buying a huge cartload of gardening supplies. There was a problem at the register on my line, and the cashier moved to the other register to help customers. A lady with a flower pot immediately walked up and took first place in line. The guy behind me quickly fell in line behind her. Two more people jumped the line, and suddenly I'm standing alone on line at an empty register with 500 pounds of cart.

I was fuming. I thought to myself, "I'd like to punch that guy right in the nose!"

I was glad I didn't. When it was his turn, that guy waved me ahead, saying "you were next."
I thanked him, my trust in human kindness re-affirmed. :)

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 03:43 PM
Agreed -- it was resolved by talking it over. Maybe it got louder than it needed to be, which sucks, but the range staff intervened and the offending person was removed. Shame it had to come to that, but we weren't there and didn't hear the exchange.

If there's no supervision? No way to enforce your claim to the brass and your safety space? And this guy really doesn't listen the second time? Leave. Obvious answer. If we agree that we won't (in the immortal words) "go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times" in order that we may aviod the kinds of trouble that such places, people, things, and times attract -- how then can we not see our way clear to leave a bad situation we see developing at the range (or wherever else)?

"But that's not fair?" Heck. Life isn't fair. Hitting, assaulting, or even getting into a shouting match with some jerk who won't let us enjoy the range our way in peace and safety doesn't increase the quality of our range experience or our own safety in any way.

skeeziks
May 23, 2012, 03:48 PM
What I recently started doing is to bring a first-basemens glove & a big shopping bag to the range and what I do is I stand to the side of the shooter to my left and catch the brass as it's ejected and dump it in the bag (which is clearly marked with my name, so no one will think I'm stealing.)
I feel I'm doing a service to all who shoot there by keeping some of the spent casings off the floor where someone could potentially slip & fall.

Rail Driver
May 23, 2012, 03:48 PM
Agreed -- it was resolved by talking it over. Maybe it got louder than it needed to be, which sucks, but the range staff intervened and the offending person was removed. Shame it had to come to that, but we weren't there and didn't hear the exchange.

If there's no supervision? No way to enforce your claim to the brass and your safety space? And this guy really doesn't listen the second time? Leave. Obvious answer. If we agree that we won't (in the immortal words) "go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times" in order that we may aviod the kinds of trouble that such places, people, things, and times attract -- how then can we not see our way clear to leave a bad situation we see developing at the range (or wherever else)?

"But that's not fair?" Heck. Life isn't fair. Hitting, assaulting, or even getting into a shouting match with some jerk who won't let us enjoy the range our way in peace and safety doesn't increase the quality of our range experience or our own safety in any way.
So where do his rights end and mine begin? What makes his rights more important or more applicable than mine? Where's the balance? What rights are too small or unimportant to defend, or is it just the "big ones" or the "important ones" that we should defend?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue here - I'm honestly searching for the answer - I understand the value of politeness in the face of rude behavior, and even the tactical use of politeness to either de-escalate or defuse a situation.

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 04:04 PM
So where do his rights end and mine begin? What makes his rights more important or more applicable than mine? Where's the balance? What rights are too small or unimportant to defend, or is it just the "big ones" or the "important ones" that we should defend?Rights? You have rights, and you have repercussions. You can incur terrible repercussions while trying to exercise your rights. The only Constitutional guarantees are that the government is not supposed to infringe some of your rights. If another citizen infringes what you feel are your rights, you have the option to "stand up for yourself," work it out with them, or back down and let it go.

"Standing up for yourself" tends to end badly. I've got the RIGHT to walk down Warren Street in Detroit at 2:00 am wearing a pair of Rolexes on each arm and waving the Stars and Bars. Chances are I will suffer consequences because I exercised those rights. That's not fair. But it's life.

Now, you DON'T have the right to assault this guy in our scenario, period. Even if he's stealing your brass. You can say almost anything to him you like, if you feel you need to. If you're aggressive and loud trying to back him down, that may work. Or it may encourage a similar response from him (look up Rory Miller's "Monkey Dance" concept) and you may both end up in jail, or shot for what its worth.

Talking to the guy and trying to work out a solution that meets both your needs probably will work. If it doesn't, you can go to the range Staff and have THEM take it up a notch. (In larger issues, I'd put legal civil lawsuits into this category. That's still working it out with words, but you're asking the State to give you a hand.)

Again, though, if none of this works, you have to suck it up and leave. You really aren't out much. A few dollars worth of brass and a range trip cut short, maybe. That's peanuts in life's grand scheme. You lived, you're still a free man, your blood pressure's a little up, but it will come down again. (Grab a good beer and a rare steak for dinner...I hear it calms the nerves and is good for the heart! :D) Take up the matter with whatever range authority is in place -- later if you have to. They don't want unsafe conditions and rude patrons any more than you want to have to deal with them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue here - I'm honestly searching for the answer - I understand the value of politeness in the face of rude behavior, and even the tactical use of politeness to either de-escalate or defuse a situation.Yup. Those are very valuable skills, but the biggest one is just perspective. What harm has this jerk really done? What harm am I willing to do, or to suffer, to attempt to defend my own interests? Is there nothing I can do to work this out with the guy and we all go on a little better for having had this chat? If not? That's really too bad. Think I'll go grab that beer. :)

Certaindeaf
May 23, 2012, 04:13 PM
People in real life are by and large eminently gracious. Most times I am truly humbled and proud of humanity. However, when I get head butted in the groin by some brass theif, graciousness ceases.

Sam1911
May 23, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'll add one other note that may be of some merit:

When things do go very badly, like when one guy assaults or shoots another, and someone tries to claim self-defense, the prosecutor looks at the totality of the situation before he agrees to accept your self-defense claim.

(Or, if he does not accept your claim, the jury will look at the totality of the situation.)

If your actions are seen to have lead to escalating a situation to assault or homicide -- no matter how much you might have been "right" in the small initial disagreement -- your self-defense claim is shot.

Now, I can't really imagine any of us would go to guns over a few cents worth of brass, or because someone else might have been causing some potential danger, but these things start small, and you never really know this other guy you're dealing with.

If he's socially awkward enough to insist on violating your space and stealing your brass -- after being told not to -- who knows what circuits are shorted up in his head?

If you get in an argument with this guy, and it escalates, and you end up shooting him in self defense, you're going to have a real hard time proving that you were not "mutual combatants." Mutual combatants do not have the luxury of a self-defense claim. One's dead and one's guilty of manslaughter. That's a bad way to end the range trip.

The judge is not going to instruct the jury, "Now remember, the deceased DID actually steal the Defendant's brass...so maybe Mr. Jones is not really at fault here."

When you stand up for yourself, and engage in argument and low-level violence, you share the blame for whatever ends may come.

jcwit
May 23, 2012, 04:19 PM
I believe your rights end at the tip of the other persons nose or any other body part that belongs to him, unless he is doing something illegal.

Why do folks think they have the right to just go punching/assaulting other people when things do not go their way. Lot of anger out there for very little reason. Do they actually think they are that important.

kb58
May 23, 2012, 04:24 PM
Sam1911, well put. People seem to confuse freedom of speech, rights, responsiblity, and consequences. As you said, you have the freedom to do all sorts of things because you have the right to do so. Whether it's wise is the consequence of doing so. People get upset that their freedom of speech got them in trouble. Yeah well, threatening someone can make that happen. The freedom part doesn't disconnect said statements from the responsibility of making them.

I see I'm now off in the weeds... steers back onto topic. Was it wise for the guy to get right behind a shooter? No. Was it wise to trip someone who's holding a loaded pistol? No. Yelling at him for it? That could go either way.

CountryUgly
May 23, 2012, 06:07 PM
I've recently gotten back into shooting and last year, I decided to start reloading. That said, I find myself walking around the range, looking down a lot. :D

I try to be courteous to others around me and show interest in their firearms as well as what I'm shooting. I'm always learning. Our range has a rule that if the person shooting doesn't mind, so long as the brass is on the floor, you can pick it up WHEN SAFE TO DO SO. If it goes in the trash can, it's the range's brass.

I've asked some folks around me if they reload and, if not, would they mind me picking up the brass if it's a caliber that I reload. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they don't. That's fine and I respect that but, I still can't get past the feeling of being the kid in the lunchroom saying, "Uh, yeah, you gonna eat that?"

Some say you get over it, sometimes I think it also helps keep us courteous.

Either way, I don't believe there is any place for guns around heated tempers.
I see nothing wrong with you doing that and if I was in your shoes I'd wear a T-Shirt with Brass Hound on both sides and carry one of those handy grabbers (they really save your back) labeled Litter Control. Just wait till the line is cold to scavenge.

Rollis R. Karvellis
May 23, 2012, 06:13 PM
1) I, am a brass, and lead whore.
2) I, am respectful of other's brass, and expect them to be respectful of mine.
3) If a range is populated by shooter's who upon hearing a loud voice will cause them to uncontrollably spray the range down in 360 degree fire may prove the anti's are right about us.
4) Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday. It is the control of this urge that make's us the highest on the food chain.
Sometime a loud, rude remark is all that will penetrat someone's mind. The OP was not in the wrong. I, might approach it a little differently, but the urge to punch the vaulter would be there.
I, think a year suspension is a little harsh, but only a little.

treg
May 23, 2012, 07:07 PM
I fully support all the brass rats out there who gather more than they'll ever need then sell it off cheap just to get rid of it. :D

However, having never been to a public range nor planning on ever going to one, I don't have to deal with them or any of the other consequences of enjoying my hobby alongside people I don't know, trust, or care to associate with.

ETA:
And also, they ain't hafta deal with me. :D

blindhari
May 23, 2012, 07:35 PM
I have read the original post about 5 times and cannot determine if the firing line was on ready or cease fire. To me that would make a good bit of difference. Where I shoot we have no target in and out system on the pistol range. However if this was a case of someone crawling on the floor 1/2 step behind me on a firing position. I would have been yelling for a cease fire as loud as I possibly could. The individual crawling for brass would have been a safety hazard due to the possibility of tripping me with a firearm in full battery. I would not have sought physical remonstrance but would have tried to ban the guy for life, his as well as the other persons who could have been injured. Anyone crawling within a step behind a "HOT" firing position is just looking to collect thier Darwin award.

blindhari

Steve CT
May 23, 2012, 09:18 PM
So he got thrown off the range for a year, and you didn't punch him (like you would have 20 years ago) but sounds like you wanted to?

Frankly, I'm glad I'm not on the range with you.

IMHO-Sam1911 has it right here

MachIVshooter
May 23, 2012, 10:05 PM
1) I, am a brass, and lead whore.
2) I, am respectful of other's brass, and expect them to be respectful of mine.
3) If a range is populated by shooter's who upon hearing a loud voice will cause them to uncontrollably spray the range down in 360 degree fire may prove the anti's are right about us.
4) Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday. It is the control of this urge that make's us the highest on the food chain.
Sometime a loud, rude remark is all that will penetrat someone's mind. The OP was not in the wrong. I, might approach it a little differently, but the urge to punch the vaulter would be there.
I, think a year suspension is a little harsh, but only a little.

I, think commas, should, be used, with some restraint. ;)

Seriously, it can be just as difficult to follow what you're saying when you overpunctuate as when it's lacking.

On your #4 point; I don't believe "most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday". Overly hostile folks might, but I think the average person has many levels of irritation before the wanting to swing point is reached, and I don't think it happens every day to normal people.

Powerglide
May 23, 2012, 10:30 PM
Let's be real freakin honest.The feller was in the guys space at the wrong time while the guy was either shooting or standing. Period.But that doesn't mean punch or shoot.At least not that early in the confrontation.Lot's of options to go thru first.

Nushif
May 23, 2012, 10:35 PM
I don't believe "most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday". Overly hostile folks might [...]

I feel the urge to at least tackle people quite regularly, but I will be the first to admit that I am as my wife puts it "a little jumpy." Call it an occupational hazard.
But I will agree with the poster that said that impulse control is a very important trait in a person. One of the lousiest people I've met have had the least impulse control, for sure.

But to keep this forearms related, even me, who is "a little jumpy" doesn't feel this urge to punch people for carelessness. Was it careless? Sure. Does it need a new range rule to boot everyone who ever picks up a piece of brass again? Nope. Does the guy need to be told "Hey, you spiked my adrenaline real hard there. How about you keep your distance?" Absolutely.

dagerv
May 23, 2012, 10:40 PM
But to keep this forearms related

pun intended?

jcwit
May 23, 2012, 10:46 PM
Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday. It is the control of this urge that make's us the highest on the food chain.
Sometime a loud, rude remark is all that will penetrat someone's mind. The OP was not in the wrong. I, might approach it a little differently, but the urge to punch the vaulter would be there.

Then in your world I'm obviously not normal. One of the better things about being brought up and living in a small town with lots and lots of friendly helpful folks.

Arkansas Paul
May 23, 2012, 10:57 PM
4) Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday.


4) Most JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL KIDS feel the urge to punch someone everyday.

There. Fixed it for you.
Adults prefer solve problems in nonviolent ways, unless they are in physical danger and there is no other alternative.

skeeziks
May 23, 2012, 11:02 PM
I guess it all depends upon where you live....

mgmorden
May 23, 2012, 11:03 PM
As with what everyone said, I believe there may have been a tad bit of an overreaction here. The guy obviously was in the way, but it sounds like someone's pride may have been hurt a wee bit due to a stumble.

As to the brass stealing thing, there are two things that came to mind here:
1. There are a few cues in the original post that suggest to me that the OP may have been stating that this guy was picking up his own brass that was being thrown into that vicinity. If he's picking up his own brass that went over there he's still not right, but the level of response becomes even more suspect.

2. As has already been noted, though its not ALWAYS the case, brass is often regarded as a waste item. Its the trash our guns spew out. A few save it to reload, but not many (the stat is elevated somewhere like a gun forum, but the ranges as a whole aren't populated by people as dedicated as the members of such a forum). Some people may assume without asking that the person doesn't want it. Again, a bit presumptuous, but I can see somebody doing it. In particular, if it indeed was the OP's brass, then being a revolver shooter if you're dumping empties on the floor most people are going to assume you're not saving them. Still not right to touch without asking, but in reality myself and every other person I know who shoots revolvers and handloads will drop the empties into a bucket or a box or something.

And as always, I think Sam1911 is secretly the gun-Budda or something. Always wise words :).

Powerglide
May 23, 2012, 11:03 PM
Just become a corrections officer.You'll learn real quick how to "deal" with fools.You'll also learn that "making nice" can save you.

Nushif
May 24, 2012, 06:00 AM
pun intended?

Lul, actually not. But I'll claim it.

bbuddtec
May 24, 2012, 06:28 AM
not a brass chaser problem, its a moron problem. Solution seems extreme, but I wasn't there.

Rollis R. Karvellis
May 24, 2012, 01:57 PM
I, am sure the O.P. is using his dramatic license to tell his story, and to describe his feeling's about the incident.

I am pretty sure that the vast majority of people who feel moment's of anger, rage, and violence, are also able to say please, thank you, I'm sorry, and even chew with their mouth closed.

Good manner's, and politeness is something most of us will start to learn, and use at a very young age, and continue to learn, and use throw out our live's. Many of the most important of these lesson's will be learned, as stated by another poster, in junior high, and high school. Even I, a polite, and well mannered teenager growing up in the metropolis of 2000 people had to wake up in a puddle of my own blood on a couple of occasion's because of rude behavyer.
This is my long winded way of saying that someone yelling at another person when they are acting rude, and dangerous is not out of bound's.

Could the O.P. have allowed the vulture to finish scrounging the spot? Yes.
Could the vulture have asked to finish scrounging the spot? Yes. Would the O.P. have let him? I, don't know. I, would of. Should the vulture have been disciplined? Yes.

I, think that a year is a little harsh, unless this is not the first time it happened. If that is the case maybe this was the range's way of ridding themselves of a problem.

Also, just for the record, my son graduated from high school last week. He attended the 3rd largest district in the county, and we had to bring in one of the local farmer's cow to even out the ceremony. Or was she the prom queen, I couldn't tell.

For the three, or four people on THR, who have no since of humor, that last paragraph is what is known as a joke.

ny32182
May 24, 2012, 02:09 PM
If it went down like the OP said, as the RO I'd have thrown the OP out rather than the brass chaser, assuming that picking up brass is accepted at that range.

But, I think the reality is that many of us have better social skills in person than on the internet. In all my time on ranges, and I spend a lot of time on ranges, I have never once seen anyone come to blows over a few cents worth of brass. And, I've never seen anyone picking up brass when they should not have been require more than one polite reminder for them to stop.

But even then I have noticed that there is a statisticaly not-insignificant percentage of men who seem to be on edge at shooting ranges (same thing while golfing... same sport, different equipment)... the only thing I can figure is that they have some kind of performance anxiety for lack of a better term. And even then, they all can make it through without getting into a fistfight.

MTO
May 24, 2012, 02:28 PM
From the OP:

I ran a target out, loaded my revolver and shot almost a box of shells dropped the empties left my cylinder open sat my gun down ran the target back in, took a half step backwards and tripped on that scavenger who was on his hands and knees directly behind me picking up brass AGAIN!

The OP did not say "almost tripped." The OP said "tripped." To me, that means there was contact, and the OP either was sent off balance or fell to the floor.

W.E.G.
May 24, 2012, 02:47 PM
:-p

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/brassthief1.jpg

oneounceload
May 24, 2012, 03:47 PM
I ran a target out, loaded my revolver and shot almost a box of shells dropped the empties left my cylinder open sat my gun down ran the target back in, took a half step backwards and tripped on that scavenger who was on his hands and knees directly behind me picking up brass AGAIN!

Why are empties from a revolver hitting the floor in the first place?

Why was the OP not aware of his surroundings and looking around? - Isn't that what everyone who owns a gun keeps preaching here and other places - know what is happening around you?

Just sayin'....................... ;)

Rollis R. Karvellis
May 24, 2012, 07:59 PM
He didn't say that his were falling on the floor, but even if they were, that does not mean they are free for the taking.

When I'm shooting it look's like an elephant on roller skate's is on the line. I, don't think having a couple of feet to move around, to readjust your footing is to much to ask for.

Yes the firearm is always pointed in a safe direction.

This thread reminded me of the time when my son was mad at the world, and punched the kitchen wall. That house was a 100 year old dump, but it was a 100 year old dump made out of locas wood.

Needless to say he did some maturing that day.

Steve CT
May 24, 2012, 10:02 PM
Why are empties from a revolver hitting the floor in the first place?

Why was the OP not aware of his surroundings and looking around? - Isn't that what everyone who owns a gun keeps preaching here and other places - know what is happening around you?

Just sayin'....................... ;)
Big +1 on this comment. OP's (lack of) Situational Awareness played a part in this too.

goon
May 25, 2012, 01:07 PM
Seems reasonable enough to me that you wouldn't sneak up on a guy who is shooting and steal his brass while he is reloading.
Situational awareness or not, who is expecting some moron to do that while you're shooting?

dubya450
May 25, 2012, 04:41 PM
To the OP, I probably would have had the same reaction as well and yelled but not had to hold back hitting the guy lol. I wouldn't want to attack someone with guns all around or face jail time.

And to a few others who are posting about suing you for this or suing them for that, WHY? What is this country coming to? A bunch of wimps who feel entitled to a large sum of money because they got punched for being an idiot? I say punch them twice! Its just sad how fast people bring up the word sue over the dumbest things. Get real.

Warp
May 25, 2012, 06:02 PM
While I agree with Sam1911, to a point - I'm also of the opinion that stupidity should be painful.

Stealing my brass is a crime - criminal negligence (crawling around on the ground at my feet while I'm shooting) is also a crime - You should hear the laughter from the county sheriff's office when you call to report something like that.

A "stern talking to" usually does about as much good as calling the cops to be laughed at.

So lets get right down to the point - We can't assault the guy for having the nerve to endanger the lives of everyone on the shooting line and the gall to steal my brass out from under me before it even has a chance to cool... Talking to him is unlikely to do any good or prevent it from happening again... The cops don't think such a petty crime is worth a response... Where does that leave us? Suck it up and deal with it or leave? Sorry, but carrying a gun imparts certain responsibilities - folding at the first sign of opposition and refusing to speak up for yourself are not part of that.


... You bring it to the attention of the employees (management/range officer/ownership/whatever it takes).

Common sense. It goes a LOOONG way

Warp
May 25, 2012, 06:08 PM
Seems reasonable enough to me that you wouldn't sneak up on a guy who is shooting and steal his brass while he is reloading.
Situational awareness or not, who is expecting some moron to do that while you're shooting?

"Situational awareness" that only notices what you expect to happen is, well, NOT situational awareness.

I may not notice somebody grabbing brass from directly behind me, either, that is the nature of shooting at an indoor pistol range...I just happen to disagree with the thought process presented above.

jcwit
May 25, 2012, 07:21 PM
And to a few others who are posting about suing you for this or suing them for that, WHY? What is this country coming to? A bunch of wimps who feel entitled to a large sum of money because they got punched for being an idiot? I say punch them twice! Its just sad how fast people bring up the word sue over the dumbest things. Get real.

Clarifying as to what I'm entitled to. I AM NOT ENTITLED to being hit, bludgeoned, or struck in ANY MANOR by anyone for any reason unless I've done something illegal. My recourse is the courts and a DARN GOOD lawyer.

Furthermore, I'm far from being an idiot as you imply.

dubya450, Your rights end at the tip of my nose, otherwise suffer the consequences.

Warp
May 25, 2012, 07:22 PM
To the OP, I probably would have had the same reaction as well and yelled but not had to hold back hitting the guy lol. I wouldn't want to attack someone with guns all around or face jail time.

And to a few others who are posting about suing you for this or suing them for that, WHY? What is this country coming to? A bunch of wimps who feel entitled to a large sum of money because they got punched for being an idiot? I say punch them twice! Its just sad how fast people bring up the word sue over the dumbest things. Get real.

To teach the assailant that physically assaulting/battering people is not the proper, mature, or socially acceptable method for handling something like this.

Maybe, as a bonus, they will learn to control their tempers. Or, if they cannot control their tempers, maybe the law will decide for them that they are not fit to possess firearms, so that they don't end up shooting somebody the next time.

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