Copper and Carbon Cleaners burning in barrel when fired


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manchuman
May 22, 2012, 10:53 PM
I have been in pursuit of non-odor gun cleaners to prevent scent on my rifle when hunting (beating a deer’s nose) and want cleaners that are effective and not time consuming in cleaning copper, carbon and lead.
I have been using Hoppe’s Elite Gun Cleaner, then Hoppe’s Copper Terminator, followed with Elite again and then Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Lube (EWL) or Slip 2000 Gun Lube for lubricant and protection. This has worked well until a recent discovery. I cleaned my 243 recently the night before shooting. I use a ziplock bag to catch the patches and when I remove the ziplock bag I run a saturated patch of Hoppe’s Elite over the metal at the end of the barrel to clean off the copper cleaner. When I did, a couple drops of the mix ended up in the end of the muzzle. It was late so I didn’t follow my standard protocol of running another dry patch and an oiled patch down the bore. The next day when shooting the rifle, I found my handloads and the factory loads were about 120 ft/s lower in velocity but couldn’t explain why. I never recovered the velocity. When I returned home to clean the gun I found that the residue from the copper terminator from swabbing the end of the barrel had burnt in the end of the barrel and looked like burnt sugar in the muzzle. So far I have been unsuccessful in cleaning it out. I know it is my fault for not cleaning it out entirely before shooting but feel that I should probably be using a cleaner that is not prone to this especially if I cannot get every bit out of the chamber, throat or bore. Here are some pictures of the muzzle with the burnt Copper Terminator in the end. 164898

I found that the Copper Terminator did work well at Copper removal. Cleaning with it for 30 minutes and then following with Butch’s Bore shine or Blue Wonder (Ammonia based) found that I got clean patches with the Butches and Blue Wonder. When I cleaned with Butch’s and Blue Wonder I cleaned until I got clean patches as instructed then used the Copper Terminator and got some nasty blue patches and cleaned a lot more out. Using this after using Hoppe’s Elite to clean carbon and powder residue then cleaning the Terminator out with a couple patches of Elite has worked great until this mishap. The burnt residue was only in the lower portion and sides of the muzzle and about a half inch into the bore. I realize I could continue to use the Copper Terminator carefully and still get the good results I have had so far. But I want to see what other products are out there.

I wanted to see if other gun oils and cleaners would char when exposed to flame so I did the following test. I took some of the following Copper Cleaners, Gun Cleaners and Gun oils and placed 1 to 3 drops like I would on a patch on a sheet of aluminum foil. I rubbed the cleaner across the foil like it had been run down a bore. I then let it dry for 7 to 8 hours like I would have overnight. I then took a butane torch and lightly passed over the cleaners and solvents to see if any of them would char like the Terminator had in my bore. Here is the list of the brands I tested that I had on hand:
Hoppe’s Copper Terminator
Hoppe’s Elite Gun Cleaner
Hoppe’s Gun Oil (orange Bottle)
Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Lube (EWL)
Slip 2000 Gun Lube
Outers Gun Oil
Outers Cleaner, Lubricant, Protectant
Butch’s Bore Shine
Krano Kroil
Remington Oil
Remington Brite Bore
WD40
Here are a few pictures of the results. 164899

All the oils and cleaners flamed up when the torch was run over them but self extinguished in about a second. The Rem Oil and Rem Brite Bore did not flame or the Outers Gun Oil. This is because they had already evaporated before running the flame over them. So I reapplied them again and this time ran the flame over them immediately. They flamed briefly and then extinguished as I expected. The Copper Terminator had left a charred area where the solvent had been and put off some dark smoke as it bubbled up. The only gun oils that had lubricant remaining after burning briefly were both the Slip 2000 products, the WD40 (faintly), the Krano Kroil (faintly) and the Hoppe’s Gun Oil. Since they had all burnt with no residue and had remaining lubricant, I continued to run the torch over them repeatedly to see when the oil would fully disappear. I found that after another repetition or two the WD40 and Krano were gone. After about 4 the Hoppes was gone. After about 10 times the Slip 2000 products were still there and when whipped with my finger easily oiled my finger. They showed good resistance to heat which would obviously be good for use in a semi automatic for a lubricant. All the oils and solvents left no residue or charring that would have lead me to believe they would damage a gun if left in the bore after a cleaning. The Copper Terminator on the other hand produced the same charred effect that I found in the end of my muzzle. It was disappointing but I realized that I have cleaned with this before and when fully removed from the bore did not burn in the bore. Prior results with the Terminator had removed enough copper to turn a Remington 700 from a 1.5” gun to a .375” gun with the same factory load.

I would like to see what other options are out there for no odor, non corrosive, effective copper cleaners. I have seen the following products are advertised to fit these characteristics:
KG-12
Bore Tech Eliminator
Bore Tech CU+2

I was wondering is if anyone has these solvents or other copper or carbon solvents, if they could conduct the same experiment and share with other readers on this thread to see if they char when exposed to flame. Obviously none of us want to have some minor left over solvent create this condition. If you can share your pictures like I did that would be great and hopefully we can create some understanding of which solvents would not have negative effects of having some in the bore when fired.

Use about 3 drops only in well ventilated areas and away from flammable materials. Keep a cup of water and fire extinguisher nearby in case of fire. I am not responsible for any damage you may induce to property or physical harm to yourself or others. Be careful and use common sense.:)

And if anyone has a recommendation as to what cleaner will remove this mess from the muzzle of my rifle without damaging metal or removing bluing, please let me know. I’ll probably take it to a gunsmith.
164898 164899

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hardluk1
May 24, 2012, 07:29 AM
It is early so I may get why all the burning of products but depending on how far up the barrel the green residual is place wet kroil patch or 3 or plug and fill the barrel over night. Then use some JB's bore polish wet patch and clean the barrel. JB's bore bright may do the job but more for a final buffing or mantaining.

All I have used for way to many years is JB products Kroil and breekfree clp. If you let your barrel soak between shooting sessions after clean with clp it really should not rust. Just patch dry before shooting. Another product that was used by shooters for years when carbs where still the norm was GM top end lubericant. Works just like kroil. I had some barnes x first year copper bullets years ago really killed a barrel for me ,Kroil and kroil jb mix cleaned it right up. Clean right up for me.

Go to youtube and search JB's and Kroil.

buckhorn_cortez
May 24, 2012, 09:30 AM
KG12 is the best copper cleaner that I've used. I haven't used Hoppe's as a bore cleaner for 30 years as Shooter's Choice is far better than any Hoppe's bore cleaning product I've ever used.

KG12 is water-based and has no scent at all and will easily clean copper from the bore. Swab the bore really wet and let it sit for about 30 minutes (depending on the amount of copper), brush and swab out again. If you still have copper repeat the process. The swabs will not come out green as KG12 has no ammonia. KG12 is yellow and the swabs come out brown depending upon the amount of copper.

I use is KG12 for copper and Shooter's Choice + Kroil for a general bore cleaner. I follow up the KG12 with Shooter's Choice mixed with Kroil (75% Shooter's Choice / 25% Kroil) and let that sit for about 30 minutes, then brush and swab again with the Shooter's Choice mixture. You may need to repeat the brush + swab again for a really dirty bore.

I've cleaned bores with Hoppe's until the patch comes out clean. Then swabbed the bore with Shooter's Choice, brushed the bore, swabbed with Shooter's Choice and had the patch come out black. That's how much better Shooter's Choice works.

The Shooter's Choice will get all of the powder fouling out of the bore while the Kroil will get under any leading and make it so you can simply brush the lead out of the bore. For badly leaded bores, I use straight Kroil, swab it really wet and let the barrel sit over night.

If needed, I use a copper Chore Boy around the brush and the lead will push out of the barrel.

I dry the bore with a couple of patches and then finish the bore with a light coating of Militec. The Militec seems to make the bore easier to clean the next time.

I like SLiP 2000 EWL, and EWG and use them on pistols and rifles for final lube. The SLiP lubricants are nice because of the extreme temperature range over which they work. I've never had trouble with the EWG on pistol slides / frames as the grease does not change viscosity with temperature.

For fun (I'm easily amused) I'm trying FrogLube on a couple of guns just to see how it works in comparison to the SLiP lubricants. I've substituted the liquid FrogLube for the Militec on several pistol barrels and am waiting to see how the barrels clean up after 200 or so rounds, and have substituted the solid FrogLube for EWG on the same pistols. FrogLube smells minty fresh...I'm not sure whether that's a bonus or not....

manchuman
May 25, 2012, 09:17 AM
Buckhorn,

Any chance you are willing to burn a couple spread out drops of the KG12 on aluminum foil? Wanted to see if any residue would burn. I'm leaning toward KG12 and if it doesn't burn like the Terminator I will go with it. I've heard other good reviews on it and have been holding off until I knew whether it would burn like the terminator or not. Thanks for the detailed reply and I appreciate Hardluk's input on cleaning out the burnt residue I have. I'm soaking in Kroil tonight.

buckhorn_cortez
May 25, 2012, 03:18 PM
I made a aluminum foil cup and put KG 12 in it. The KG 12 doesn't burn. It just evaporates. When you heat it, it bubbles and boils with a very tiny bit of smoke and then just boils away. It leaves a very slight brown residue in the bottom of the foil cup.

There are no petroleum distillates in it, it's water based so you can't light it or set it on fire. Tried it with a butane mini-torch under some foil to get it to boil and tried appyling the flame directly to the liquid.

I also put some drops on foil and let it sit in the open until it evaporated and dried. It just makes a sort of a medium yellow residue that is dry and powdery. It was still a bit sticky on the bottom when I looked at it, but it did not etch the foil.

The only other test I've seen of KG 12 is from a guy who put bullets in different copper cleaners, left them for a period of time and then weighed the bullets to see how much copper had been dissolved from the bullets. The KG 12 dissolved a significantly greater amount of copper than any other copper cleaner - with some copper cleaners not reducing the bullet weight at all.

Hope that helps.

manchuman
May 25, 2012, 09:36 PM
Thanks Buckhorn, that's what I needed to know. Would you be willing to post a picture or two of your results to compare to the results I had with the Terminator. I may or may not find a non scented, non corrosive copper cleaner that doesn't burn in some way or another. The Terminator didn't flame up either, just bubbled and burnt with brown/black residue. I was hopping to see the degree of difference to see if residue did burn whether it would be removable or not.

manchuman
May 25, 2012, 09:39 PM
Was the brown residue similar to my pictures or did it seem to have burnt less? Was it easy to remove or did it remain bonded to the aluminum like the terminator?

manchuman
May 25, 2012, 11:17 PM
Anyone out there with Bore Tech Eliminator or Bore Tech CU+2 that can check for similar results and post pictures?

Coltdriver
May 26, 2012, 12:44 AM
I use Butches Bore Shine. It is so easy and so good that cleaning is nearly effortless. One wet patch, let it sit five minutes. Another two patches to dry out the Bore Shine.

I like to treat my barrels with plate plus. Its moly disulfide. Absolutely seals the bore, noticeably reduces fouling.

After Butches I rinse and dry with denatured alcohol. Eliminates all smells and drys the barrel.

Then I run a maintenance wet patch of plate plus. Maybe two. Dry patch and the lightest CLP without the Clean. You can get a lube preserve version with no cleaner in it.

I am in Colorado so moisture is not a problem. The moly is not good for anything in the presence of moisture. So if you live in a humid place, do not use it.

But up here at a mile high and higher in the mountains the relative humidity is frequently less than 15% and gets in the single digits sometimes.

Odor free and has worked for me for years.

Seabeeken
September 16, 2014, 01:00 PM
Manchu,
I've tried everything you listed except slip 2000 which I have ordered to try on carbon. It doesn't work for copper. I've even tried many homemade concoctions. By far, the best and fastest I've used is bore tech eliminator. It removes cRbon and Copper fast when used as they recommend. As an example, I recently fired 60 rounds thru my 243 AI and cleaned with eliminator. It removed all copper and carbon with only 8 patches. A similar shooting event took Montana extreme 30+ patches to get the same rifle clean. No, I don't work for them. My bore is hand lapped so it may take more/longer with a rough bore. Also, use an aluminum jag and a nylon brush as this stuff will turn your patches green just from contact with brass jags and bronze brushes. Bore tech jags are aluminum as I bought several. I used a brass jag and it was turning the patch green while I was still wetting the patch. Fast acting stuff. As near as I can tell, it breaks the bond between the carbon and bore as a surfactant does. Eliminator has no odor at all and is said to be non toxic. Their carbon killer smells like orange though.
I cleaned an old 22 rim fire that had not been cleaned in years and was fouled bad. Eliminator took 10 patches to get it cleaned and I also got chunks of lead out. For lube, I like militec 1. A little goes a long way.
I always wash my bore with brakleen before shooting to remove oils and cleaners. My rifles show no impact shift when starting with a dry bore.
Jb bore paste will remove anything that bore tech might miss. After 49 years of shooting and looking for better ways of cleaning my guns, this is the best method and products I've found. Ken

zfk55
September 16, 2014, 03:53 PM
For the past 5 years not a single brush has touched a bore in the SP armoury. Wipe Out Foam has proven itself over and over ala Hawkeye Pro Borescope.

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