[Martel]

Looking to buy a revolver for the wife, and the Ruger LCR is at the top of my list. A friend owns one, and let me shoot a few cylinders through it. Awesome gun. Amazingly light and accurate. My geekyness kicked in and I started researching .38 special, since I don't know much about revolvers in general and as a hand loader I was curious.

Turns out a .38 special standard load is under 200 foot lbs of energy? And that's from a 4 inch barrel!

I have found some +p loads that range in energy from 250 ft lbs to over 400. I had no idea there was that much range in the +p loads....or am I missing something?

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?

[19-3Ben]

I have found some +p loads that range in energy from 250 ft lbs to over 400. I had no idea there was that much range in the +p loads....or am I missing something?

Part of the beauty of revolvers is the ability to take an incredible range of power levels in ammo. Without relying on pressure from the cartridge to drive the mechanism and the eject/feed cycle you can get light target loads all the way up to serious defensive stuff.

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?

Keep in mind that there's a lot more than KE at play. There is bullet weight, bullet shapes, sectional densities, etc.. etc...

In the end, I don't think they're different enough to matter to the guy at the end of the muzzle.

[Bubba613]

The old "FBI load" has a long record of putting people in the ground. That is generally my preferred load. It works just fine.

[R.W.Dale]

From a snub nosed revolver I'm finding that 9mm is much closer to 357 mag in performance than it is 38spl

For example from a 2" bbl speers 124g +p gold dot loading makes 1155 fps. This is within 100 fps of what most 357 loads do with this bullet weight in a 2" bbl.

38 from what I've been researching struggles to hit 1000 fps in a snubby in +p trim with this bullet weight.

But perhaps best of all 9mm from a snubby revolver has only a fraction of the cataclysmic blast and flash 357 does in short short barrels.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/2012-04-12114158.jpg

[Loosedhorse]

My .38 has only five shots, so it's worse than 9mm.

And fires a 158 gr soft lead SWCHP, so it's better than 9mm.

[jrdolall]

I notice a BIG difference in recoil when using +p in the 642. I don't chronogaph anything but follow up shots at 20 feet with the +p are much more difficult for me to put on target. Standard 9mm from my PF9 have less felt recoil than the +p from the 642.

[easyg]

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?
No, this is not the case.

All other things being equal, the 9mm Para will out-perform the .38 special.

But the .38 special is still enough to stop most men.

[jmr40]

A 9mm +P from a full size pistol with at least 4" of barrel is running right with 357 mag revolvers with 4" or less barrels when shooting 125 gr bullets. The 9mm will be shooting a 124 gr bullet 1200-1250 fps while the 357 mag will only get 1250-1300 fps with the same bullet weights.

38 special, even 38+p is not in the same power class as 9mm.

[ArchAngelCD]

Martel,
Don't get so hung up on the numbers and look at results. The .38 Special when loaded with a good bullet has been stopping bad guys for over 100 years now. I guess those guys didn't know the numbers were different for the .38 Special compared to the 9mm, they just got dead...

If you like to carry a semi-auto buy a 9mm. If your a revolver guy like me but a .38 Special. Both will do their jib if you do yours. Hit what you aim at and the rest will take care of itself...

[19-3Ben]

A 9mm +P from a full size pistol with at least 4" of barrel is running right with 357 mag revolvers with 4" or less barrels when shooting 125 gr bullets. The 9mm will be shooting a 124 gr bullet 1200-1250 fps while the 357 mag will only get 1250-1300 fps with the same bullet weights.


You're telling a partial truth. Let's tell the rest of that story though. The 124gr. 9mm+p rounds that are 1200-1250 fps are about as fast as it gets for 9mm. That's like Buffalo Bore's territory. Even their +p+ loads in 124gr. only get to 1300fps. The 125gr. .357mag loads that are shooting at that velocity in a 4"bbl, are moderate level loads.

So what you are telling is in fact the truth, so long as you ignore that you are comparing the hottest 9mm to the midlevel .357mag.

Going back to Buffalo Bore, their 125 gr. .357mag load hits 1591fps from a 4"bbl.
That's a gain in the range of 350fps in favor of the .357mag when you compare apples to apples.
In fact, even BB's 158gr. loading hits 1485fps from a 4" bbls. So with a load that is 34 grains heavier, they still best the 124gr. 9mm by over 200fps.

And that's not taking into account that bullet profiles can be optimized for reliable expansion because they don't have to account for reliable feeding up a feed ramp. That is a nice bonus for any revolver load.

But this is a thread about the .38spl. ON PAPER, the 9mm beats .38spl almost every time. As I said toward the top, I don't know that it makes any difference though. A 158gr. .38spl slug chugging a long at a moderate pace still can stop as bad just as well as it has been doing for over 100 years.

If you like to carry a semi-auto buy a 9mm. If your a revolver guy like me but a .38 Special. Both will do their jib if you do yours. Hit what you aim at and the rest will take care of itself...

Wise words.

[RalphS]

I did some chrono testing with a friends LCR shooting 38 and 38+P loads

Reloads:
158 grain lead SWC (4.5 gr. Universal) - 775 fps
158 grain +P lead SWC (5.0 gr. Universal) - 827 fps
Factory Loads:
125 grain Nyclad - 841 fps
130 grain PMC - 794 fps
125 grain Speer Gold Dot +P - 928 fps

Now compare that to some factory loads with a 9mm 3 inch barrel XD9-SC -
WWB 115 gr 1080 fps
Winchester NATO 124 gr. 1104 fps
Speer GDHP 124 gr. 1127 fps
Win Ranger T (RA9T) 147 gr. 944 fps

These guns are about the same size. The most interesting comparison is the 125 gr. 38+P Speer Gold Dot (928 fps) to the 124 gr. 9mm Speer Gold Dot (1127 fps). Based on that, I decided against the LCR and will probably get a M&P Shield in 9mm.

The results make sense since 9mm operates at higher pressures than 38 Special.

[Zeke/PA]

I own 3 revolvers that are .38 Special capable, an old K-38 full target,a 686 Smith in .357 and my daily carry which is a Smith 638.
I shoot reloads at the range and +P Gold Dots in my daily carry.
I just love the .38 Special, a cartridge that is not given it's just due.
IMHO, this is due to the popularity of high cap mags these days.
To each his own, I'm sticking with the silplicity and 5/6 shot capacity of the revolvers.

[mnhntr]

If I were a betting man I would bet my money on a 158gr LSWC at +p velocity making better work of a bad guy than a 124gr JHP 9mm. But that is just an opinion. I have seen more than my share of gunshot wounds and the 9mm does not impress me. Maybe with a better bullet it would, but factory ammo seems to be limited to JHPs and FMJs. IMO JHPs only perform to their full potential at higher velocity or higher bullet weights. I believe to acheive good stopping power in lower velocities and bullet weights such as the 25acp-9mm or 38spl you need a cutting/pentrating bullet. It is very similar to broadheads in archery. The less you have in KE the more you need a cut on contact BH as opposed to a mechanical BH.

[fastbolt]

38 special equals 9mm?

How well can your wife shoot either caliber choice, in any proposed handgun being considered?

I've seen CCW & LE folks who were shooting both calibers sometimes do significantly better with one compared to the other.

As long as the caliber under discussion is one of the common service-type/defensive calibers (such as .38 Spl & 9mm, in this case) I tend to put more emphasis on effectively placed hits. Which caliber & platform can the particular shooter use to good effect?

I carry smallish 9's & .38's, myself.

[easyg]

So what you are telling is in fact the truth, so long as you ignore that you are comparing the hottest 9mm to the midlevel .357mag.
I believe his point was this:

The 9mm, at its hottest, can reach the power of a mid-level .357 magnum, while the .38 special, at its hottest simply cannot.

[Jim NE]

Here's what I don't quite understand: .38 and 9mm have the same bullet dia. (basically)...and the 9mm's are loaded hotter, yet the casings on .38 Spec ammo are longer. Do they just not load .38 ammo up to capacity or what? Because of old fragile guns?

Thing is, 9mm luger has been out there a long time, too, and there must be old warn out fragile 9 mm's as well.

[R.W.Dale]

Here's what I don't quite understand: .38 and 9mm have the same bullet dia. (basically)...and the 9mm's are loaded hotter, yet the casings on .38 Spec ammo are longer. Do they just not load .38 ammo up to capacity or what? Because of old fragile guns?

Thing is, 9mm luger has been out there a long time, too, and there must be old warn out fragile 9 mm's as well.

Way back when it was thought that autoloaders could withstand higher pressures than the revolvers of the day. And at the time this was probably true comparing period revolvers to the p08 Luger.

38 spl has a saami pressure rating of only 17k psi. 9x19 is loaded to 35k psi. The same as 357 magnum

[Ditchtiger]

---

[jbr]

Carrying either is better than carrying neither! I believe the 9 is overall a more powerful choice but i agree with Fastbolt - Which ever she shoots better - is probably the better choice for her.

[exbrit49]

I swear this is becoming a monthly topic~!
Cant we find some more scintilating discussions?

Fed up with the onging "Mine is better than yours!"

[Certaindeaf]

This is interesting..

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=660680

[ArchAngelCD]

From the Hodgdon Load data site:
9mm 124gr Sierra FMJ 1162 fps Max load
38 Spl 125gr Hornady XTP 1068 fps Max load
38 Spl +P 125gr Hornady XTP 1228 fps Max load
357 Mag 125gr Hornady XTP 1996 fps Max load

The above data shows that the .38 Special +P will generate more velocity than a 9mm with the sane bullet weight and the standard pressure .38 Special comes close. As for the 9mm coming close to the .357 Magnum, not likely in this lifetime!!!

DoubleTap ammo:
125gr .38 Special +P 1175 fps 4" barrel
124gr 9mm +P 1295 fps Glock 19
125gr .357 Mag 1600 fps 4" barrel

Again, a 9mm running up with a .357 Magnum, not going to happen... BTW, revolvers will show a lower velocity because of the cylinder gap whereas a semi-auto has no such gap.

[R.W.Dale]

From the Hodgdon Load data site:
9mm 124gr Sierra FMJ 1162 fps Max load
38 Spl 125gr Hornady XTP 1068 fps Max load
38 Spl +P 125gr Hornady XTP 1228 fps Max load
357 Mag 125gr Hornady XTP 1996 fps Max load

The above data shows that the .38 Special +P will generate more velocity than a 9mm with the sane bullet weight and the standard pressure .38 Special comes close. As for the 9mm coming close to the .357 Magnum, not likely in this lifetime!!!

DoubleTap ammo:
125gr .38 Special +P 1175 fps 4" barrel
124gr 9mm +P 1295 fps Glock 19
125gr .357 Mag 1600 fps 4" barrel

Again, a 9mm running up with a .357 Magnum, not going to happen... BTW, revolvers will show a lower velocity because of the cylinder gap whereas a semi-auto has no such gap.

First off experienced handloaders understand that the velocity claims in load manual have essentially no bearing in the realm of reality.

Secontly your 357 magnum load shows RIFLE velocities.

THIRD $50 a box non saami doubletap loads that aren't safe in all firearms aren't an especially valid means of comparison.

No 38 spl load at the same bullet weight loaded to approximately half the pressure is going to best 9x19 in a similar platform. If it is its loaded to a great deal more pressure than 17k psi

[ArchAngelCD]

We all know load velocities can not be obtained by reloaders but all are from the same data so they are all wrong but correct when comparing each to the other.

The .357 Magnum 125gr data is not from the rifle load data, it's from the pistol data using W296/H110. The rifle data on the sight lists a 125gr bullet from a 18'5" barrel @2276 fps.

Again, I know that won't happen but all the calibers won't happen and are correct when comparing each against the other. (since they are all too high)

So you think DoubleTap ammo is not safe but buffalo Bore ammo is? Really??? I didn't tell anyone to buy either. I just used their data so we weren't comparing Buffalo Bore to CCI or MagTech to DoubleTap.

[Weevil]

If the .38 spl has been doing such a great job of stopping people for a 100 years then why'd they come up with the .357 magnum?

[TarDevil]

If the .38 spl has been doing such a great job of stopping people for a 100 years then why'd they come up with the .357 magnum?
'Cause the Pinkertons wanted to shoot through car doors.

[Weevil]

So the .38 is lousy at barrier penetration.

[R.W.Dale]

We all know load velocities can not be obtained by reloaders but all are from the same data so they are all wrong but correct when comparing each to the other.<br />
<br />
The .357 Magnum 125gr data is not from the rifle load data, it's from the pistol data using W296/H110. The rifle data on the sight lists a 125gr bullet from a 18'5&quot; barrel @2276 fps.<br />
<br />
Again, I know that won't happen but all the calibers won't happen and are correct when comparing each against the other. (since they are all too high)<br />
<br />
So you think DoubleTap ammo is not safe but buffalo Bore ammo is? Really??? I didn't tell anyone to buy either. I just used their data so we weren't comparing Buffalo Bore to CCI or MagTech to DoubleTap.


I'm sorry I don't see anywhere I mentioned Buffalo bore? Do you?

No you can't cross compare reloading data and assume uniformity in the deviation even from one source.

For example hodgdons 38+p data represents a 7.7" test barrel. The 357 is from a 10" tube and 9mm from a short 4" tube.

No comparisons at all can be derived because of this discrepancy

[CountryUgly]

The only thing I can add is shooting the Win. PDX1 130gr +p .38spl out of my 442 is brutal on my end so I'd sure hate to be on the other end of it. My 92fs even loaded with +P+ is a cake walk to shoot but I'd still rather not be on the business end of that one either.

[Martel]

I'm quite aware of the various bullet weights vs velocity and the whole "KE vs Momentum" debate, being a physics teacher.

I just find it very odd that some people seem to think that .38 is perfectly adequate and a 9mm is woefully underpowered.

Haha I don't worry too much about numbers usually (heck I've carried a 9mm loaded with Federal Premium reduced recoil hollowpoints for years) but again with the physics aspect...I was just a little shocked to see such low numbers for some .38 sp standard loads. Doing some more research and looking at some of the data you guys have posted, it looks like they are in fact closer than the 200 ft lbs I was seeing for .38 and the 450 ft lbs for 9mm.

The wife shoots my 9mm fine but I doubt she'd ever carry anything so big, and my PF-9 just had WAY too much recoil for her to handle. It's a snappy little devil.

I'm thinking I'll get the wife the first good deal I see on an LCR, whether it is a .357 or a .38. I doubt she'd ever carry .357 loads...but I might on occasion. :)

[Doghandler]

The only way to solve this question is to have a crony picnic with SP101s , 9mm, .38 Special and .357s. Sounds like a good way to spend a day.

[R.W.Dale]

The only way to solve this question is to have a crony picnic with SP101s , 9mm, .38 Special and .357s. Sounds like a good way to spend a day.

I have a 9mm snubby. Perhaps we can get some other thehighroadies with chronographs and 38/357 snubbies to chrony some ammo and loads so we can start a database


Snubnosed files has a plethora of 2" 38 chrony data.
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/snubby_ballistics.htm

Note how no 125 g loads crack 1000 fps even in +p format

[easyg]

I swear this is becoming a monthly topic~!
Cant we find some more scintilating discussions?

Fed up with the onging "Mine is better than yours!"
Nobody is forcing you to open and read or participate in any particular thead.

If the topic bothers you then just ignore it and move on.

Stress kills.

[R.W.Dale]

Nobody is forcing you to open and read or participate in any particular thead.

If the topic bothers you then just ignore it and move on.

Stress kills.

I know right. If we're not going to discuss and compare various cartridges and forearms on a GUN FORUM then what the heck are we going to post about?

[coalman]

38 special equals 9mm?

If the bullets are the same weight and speed, yes. Otherwise, no. I consider the two very comparable comparing optimal modern HP loads.

[beatledog7]

Nothing = anything in firearms. Everything is a compromise, which is why we have so many choices.

Yay choice!

[Big Lew in NC]

New member here....

WOW I have been shooting 20 years and it's amazing to see the 9 v. 38 debate boiling at the same intensity of 2 decades ago. Going back to the original post, gun for the wife, either the 38 +p or 9 would be fine. Let me throw something else: If you are looking at Ruger (good) then look at their new 32 remington magnum chambering. It has better energy than both the 38 and 9 and low recoil and blast. I recommended that to my father-in-law for my mother-in-law. Within the original context, the 158g 38+p would work fine and so would the 124 g 9. I don't happen to like 9s in general, but they perform well and cannot be denied consideration.

[KJS]

Looking to buy a revolver for the wife, and the Ruger LCR is at the top of my list.

Turns out a .38 special standard load is under 200 foot lbs of energy? And that's from a 4 inch barrel!

Yeah, a 158 grain bullet moving at 755 ft/sec for 200 ft/lbs of energy. Though a published review I saw of the LCR showed that such a load moved at only 590 ft/sec out of the 1.9" LCR barrel and produced I think 120 ft/lbs of energy only. Well, I'm quite sure that was the speed. You can play with energy equals mass times velocity squared to check if the calculation is right.

In any case, the LCR takes a pretty slow round & make it a really slow round.

I too have often wondered why so many think 9mm is some wimpy load barely adequte to take down a small rodent, yet the LCR is a well-reviewed gun owned by a great many people who feel it's fully sufficient to protect against big bad guys.

[Dean1818]

A few tests have shown the 158 grain to penetrate to 18+ inches in ballistics gel.
That would seem to me to be a danger of overpenetration

For my own personal CCW needs, i carry a CM9 for pocket and a M&P 45C when I dont tuck my shirt in.......

But..... I tried a LCR the other day and have been reading up on ballistics of 38

For me the CM9 is nice but is MUCH slower to draw from the pocket than the LCR


There is a Gold dot 135 g 38 +P that seems to have some punch

I may be picking up an LCR soon

[Old judge creek]

Caliber wars are the biggest waste of bandwidth on the net IMO.

Reality is that the 38 Special was the darling of Police Departments across the US for a century. It worked well for them then and will still get the job done, and then some.

Are there better stoppers out there? You betcha! I'd prefer the 45 ACP over any handgun SD caliber - period.

That said, I armed my late wife with a J Frame S&W because she could handle it and shoot it with great accuracy. As well, she could carry it (as she did on occasion) in her jacket pocket.

Many women are far better off IMO with a simple DA wheel gun. Often the movement of the slide on an auto intimidates their becoming relaxed and at ease with "their gun" as they go through the learn of process of self defense. (otherwise, I would have given my wife a Glock 19)

Is the 38 better than the 9mm? I dunno, the 9mm is a great round. Heck, Germany lost not one but TWO World Wars with the 9mm. (I am not a huge fan - couldja guess?) All kidding aside, I don't believe one truly excels over the other.

Frankly, I personally would not want to be without a J Frame 38 in my battery. Mine get more pocket use than any other handgun I own because when I go outdoors to see what the problem is, I can slip one into my pocket and it, unlike my Glock 30, is not noticeable. That's important to city dwellers. On my ranch, when I step outside to see whats the matter, I usually have either a 45 in my hands or a shotgun... thats a whole different world.

My youngest son, has a CCW for his Glock 19. He almost has me convinced that I need to add one to my battery as I get older and my hands become more arthritic. I just might do that... my point being, your choices need to factor in who will be the user and what their needs might be. No handgun or caliber is useful if you cannot shoot it well.

[TarDevil]

If you are looking at Ruger (good) then look at their new 32 remington magnum chambering.
You lost me there.

Can you elaborate on this round?

[mr.trooper]

Gunshots wounds will NEVER be boiled down into an equivalency. Thinking that way is to do yourself a disservice.


You lost me there.

Can you elaborate on this round?

He meant 327 Federal. I wouldn't call that "low blast" though.

[Haywood]

Don't get caught up in all the stopping power crap. What she shoots well and what she wants is #1. If it is a Snub the Gold Dot 38+p 135g has been proven an excellent performer by the NYPD and LAPD. what more could you ask for?

[TarDevil]

He meant 327 Federal. I wouldn't call that "low blast" though.

Ok, thanks. And agreed!

[Martel]

.327 Federal Magnum may be a great cartridge, but again, we're interested in more than just the amount of energy it produces.

Also, someone said "energy equals mass times velocity squared" earlier....which is not the case. Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)

Momentum is simply mass times velocity. Which is more important? Both!

The .327, being a "fringe" cartridge, is not that interesting to me, as I MUCH prefer to stick with popular cartridges. As a hand-loader you might think that strange, but I can only load for so many calibers and I want to be able to supply my friends with practice ammo. Further, it simply is not as energetic nor does it posses the momentum of the immortal .357. AND, it operates at an insane pressure of 45,000 psi, compared to the 36,000 psi 44 mag and the 35,000 psi .357.

That creates all sorts of limitations, especially:uhoh::uhoh: with cast lead bullets, that do not exist with the .38 or even the 9mm. I suppose one could just use a drastically reduced load....

Nah, I'll stick with the beforementioned.

Methinks one could compare this to a 9mm vs .45 acp debate; it may be that the difference in energy (or momentum) is mitigated with proper bullet design, and the 9mm is at such a disadvantage because so many armies use 9mm FMJs (as they must by international treaty) and have limited success. For me it is clear; the 9mm is a superior cartridge, factors being equal, because of the higher pressure. And as I said, I think I'd be happy with .38 +p, and when the time comes to pick up a revolver it will probably all come down to what I can find a good deal on. :)

[spotch]

Martel,

One thing that makes the 9mm vs 38spl stopping power a moot point is the fact that many shooters are like your wife in that they hate the recoil of 9mm out of lcr-sized~ guns (like the pf9). My wife hated the Ruger lc9 we had (not just the recoil but the trigger too... She was right on both counts IMHO).

The problem with 9mm semi autos for recoil sensitive shooters is that youre pretty much stuck with a round putting out 300ft/lbs of energy or more (out of say, a 4" barrel which isnt far off the lc9/pf9 barrel length). Even if you can find substantially weaker ammo, you can't be sure it will cycle reliably because the recoil springs are tuned for regular power loads.

The beauty of a 38spl revolver is that because it doesn't rely on bullet energy to function, there's a HUGE energy range for ammo that functions flawlessly. For practice you can find factory Remington ammo that only makes about 170-180 ft/lbs out of a 4" barrel, and if you get the 357 you can go as high as 400++ ft/lbs of energy. And this doesn't take into consideration the infinite possibilities available from reloaders making lighter rounds.

You customize the recoil to a level you're comfortable with, and practice with and carry that ammo. That Remington target stuff is nowhere near 9pm power, but it's still strong enough to make a deep (fatal) hole in an attacker. A weak bullet that you practice with and can actually get on target is ALWAYS better than one you're afraid to shoot or hate to shoot.

And when she gets used to firing the low power stuff like a champ, move her up to regular power or even plus p. Maybe one day shell be shooting 357 out of it :)

Btw I would recommend getting the 357 one... The extra weight of the gun makes it recoil a little softer and IMHO just feels better in the hand. It also means your ammo choices are that much more unlimited.

[R.W.Dale]

One of the main reasons I'm such a proponent of a 9mm revolver jives with pooches post. Most of what we precive as recoil from a 357 snubby is the overwhelming flash and muzzle blast 357 produces in a short bbl.

9mm in a snubby even though you get 7/8ths of the performance of a 357 feels much more like a 38 because you don't get that obnoxious blast and flash. Getting practice ammunition for $10per 50 doesn't hurt either.

I really lament there not being more choices in 9mm wheelguns. If ruger came out with a 9mm lcr I would buy one TOMORROW!

[wankerjake]

I'd buy an SP101 in 9mm tomorrow :)

[Deaf Smith]

Ask yourselves this guys...

Will a bad guy, being shot, be able to tell the difference between a 127gr +p+ JHP Winchester T series 9mm at 1240 fps (I chronoed from my Glock 26), and a 158gr LSWHP Buffalo Bore .38 Spl. at 1100 fps from a Ruger Speed Six (I again, chronoed from MY Speed Six)??

I think not!

As long as your gun is reasonable powerful, it is YOU and how well YOU can shoot that makes the difference. And it's not how many shots your gun holds, it's how well you can place 'em that matters.

So get out and practice and not worry so much about 9mm .vs. .38 or .40 .vs. .357 , or such.

Deaf

[R.W.Dale]

I'd buy an SP101 in 9mm tomorrow :)

I probably would too.

[Old krow]

I'd buy an SP101 in 9mm tomorrow

http://www.armslist.com/posts/403030/tampa-handguns-for-sale--ruger-sp101-9mm

I've never used these guys before, but according to the page they can turn quite a few revolvers (even a J-frame smith) into 9mm.

http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

[wankerjake]

I'll take a look, both sites are blocked (I'm at work).

I've seen the occaisional SP101 in 9mm for sale and prices are ridiculous. I should say I'd buy a new one for the same price as a 357 which is ~$500 out the door. The ones I've seen in 9mm have been upwards of $600 used.

[Old krow]

The ones I've seen in 9mm have been upwards of $600 used.
That one is no different. I think it's $650. I don't know if it is really worth it or not, but, a new Smith is going to cost even more. An older Smith chambered in 9mm is even more than that from what I have seen.

Personally I like revos chambered in 9mm. If mine were a little smaller I'd carry it.

[jimniowa]

My wife has a carry permit and carried a 2" .32 H&R mag. To qualify for a concealed permit she had to shoot a .38sp minimum. She shoots the class with a S&W 686 4" with 148g wc loads. We recently bought for her a Ruger LCR in .38 sp and it is a great gun for a small frame woman. She now shoots 158g jsp at +P loads with ease. We have 3 woman shooters in the family and only one can shoot a 9mm smi auto with out jaming (limp wristing).
Jim

[R.W.Dale]

http://www.armslist.com/posts/403030/tampa-handguns-for-sale--ruger-sp101-9mm

I've never used these guys before, but according to the page they can turn quite a few revolvers (even a J-frame smith) into 9mm.

http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

The thing that keeps me from having a 38 converted is that you don't have the ability to fire rounds WITHOUT the moon clips you have with a 9mm specific cylinder.

Another slight issue for me is a 38 reamed to 9mm will have to be a goodly bit oversized for a large part of the chambers throat.

[Old krow]

The thing that keeps me from having a 38 converted is that you don't have the ability to fire rounds WITHOUT the moon clips you have with a 9mm specific cylinder.

I don't mind shooting with moon clips, it makes the reloads pretty quick.

[R.W.Dale]

I don't mind shooting with moon clips, it makes the reloads pretty quick.

I like being able to not use them while practicing or just general plinking. Plus I can carry a reload from a speed strip like I would a normal 38

[skoro]

Here's my take...

The 9mm is a little faster. The 38 can be had in some very wicked hollowpoints that simply wouldn't work in a semiauto. I have both calibers in carry weapons and feel confident that either would do the trick if called on.

So, they may not be "equal" but I think they're both "effective."

[CZF]

Can anyone report on the Double Tap 125 gr +P load out of a LCR?

The idea of virtually no muzzle flash sounds like a good idea for my
Mother, who will be picking up a LCR very soon.

[jimbo555]

All I know is a 45 can't shrink!:D

[Remllez]

I own Smith and Colt 2 inch snubbies and shoot Wadcutters and semi Wadcutters out of them and never feel under gunned. However when I feel the need for a little more pop, I always grab my 3 inch SP-101 in 9mm.

[Rob0321]

Can anyone report on the Double Tap 125 gr +P load out of a LCR?

The idea of virtually no muzzle flash sounds like a good idea for my
Mother, who will be picking up a LCR very soon.


I've put some through my 642 which has the same length barrel as an LCR. There is a LOT of muzzle flash and concussion.

[foghornl]

Hmmm someone raised the question about the brass length, 9mm being rather short, while .38Spl is a longer shell.

Was the .38Spl originally a blackpowder load, or was it made longer so that no one one stuff .38Spl ammo into the older (Don't remember which) 38S&W or 38Colt guns? Same reason as the .44Mag was made longer, so it wouldn't fit on older .44Spl guns.

[Remllez]

Yep, it was and stil can be loadedl as a black powder round. You may be thinking about the .357 case being made a 1/10 of inch longer so it wouldn't fit in a .38 special cylinder/charge hole.

[JohnBT]

I don't know the history, but the .38 Long Colt has a 1.03" case and the .38 Special is 1.16".

[BP Hunter]

We have all been caught up with ft lb energy,fps, etc. A .38 and even a .380 is more than sufficient enough to stop a bad guy by a proficent shooter. So..make the shooter more proficient.:D

[oneounceload]

You said YOU shot it, but did your wife? Maybe before buying, SHE should shoot it - she might want something different

[ljnowell]

If the .38 spl has been doing such a great job of stopping people for a 100 years then why'd they come up with the .357 magnum?

If 9mm is so good why is there a 9x23 or a 357 sig? Works both ways.

[easyg]

The thing that keeps me from having a 38 converted is that you don't have the ability to fire rounds WITHOUT the moon clips you have with a 9mm specific cylinder.

You don't need moon clips to fire 9mm rounds from this one...

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/HPIM5676.jpg



http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/HPIM5678.jpg

[easyg]

Turns out a .38 special standard load is under 200 foot lbs of energy? And that's from a 4 inch barrel!

I have found some +p loads that range in energy from 250 ft lbs to over 400.
Where did you find a .38+P load that delivers 400 ft. lbs. of energy?

[voicomp]

IMHO, toss small capacity for either both. If you want compact try something like a 5 shot .357 mag 2.25" barrel ruger sp101 or, if you can get a good one (and many are good) a charter .44 special bulldog 2.5" barrel DAO. If size is a lesser consideration, get a double stack magazine small to midsize semi auto (but if you are doing that, I think .357 sig or .40 would be better than 9mm)

[One_Jackal]

The flaw in this thread is velocity is used instead of energy. At the muzzle a +p 158gr 38spcl is comparable to a 357. Go 25 yards downrange the 357 is still making almost the same amount of energy as it did at the muzzle. Yet both the 9mm and 38spcl are slowing quickly. Go 50 yards downrange and the 357 is clearly superior.

One other thing the 357mag doesn't do much besides make a lot of noise from a 2" barrel. The 357 was meant to be shot from a long barrel.

Cheaper than Dirt is good about listing factory ballistics for it's ammo.

[R.W.Dale]

The flaw in this thread is velocity is used instead of energy. At the muzzle a +p 158gr 38spcl is comparable to a 357. Go 25 yards downrange the 357 is still making almost the same amount of energy as it did at the muzzle. Yet both the 9mm and 38spcl are slowing quickly. Go 50 yards downrange and the 357 is clearly superior.

One other thing the 357mag doesn't do much besides make a lot of noise from a 2" barrel. The 357 was meant to be shot from a long barrel.

Cheaper than Dirt is good about listing factory ballistics for it's ammo.

Think of it this way

Velocity and not energy is the fuel that bullets use to expand.

At the muzzle from s snubby revolver even in. +p trim a 38 will struggle to make 800fps with 158g bullets. A 357 from the same barrel will do 1100 pretty easily.

IMO at any speeds below 1000fps expansion from even the most modern jhp's gets to be a dodgey prospect. I am not a fan of 158g bullets in either cartridge for defense. Save the 158's for the deer woods and get yourself a quality 12x grain hollow point or at most a 147 hardcast wadcutter in your gun can't drive jhp's hard enough to expand.

[Ky Larry]

This ia an interesting topic. In the real world, the choice would probably come down to which platform you like, auto or wheelgun. I shoot both calibers and platforms, plus others too. I doubt that a bad guy would care



Thank you guys for not turning this into a caliber war.

[ArchAngelCD]

I guess the marketing weenies have won. They have convinced a large portion of the buyers they need a super fast round to do a good job and that round comes at a premium price. Marketing Weenies one, buyers nothing but the higher prices!

Well, if that were true, how do you explain rounds like the 45-70 just to mention one. The .45-70 will push a 405gr lead bullet clear through a Buffalo and at only 1400 fps from the muzzle. Heavy and slow works and works well. Sure a 9mm 124gr bullet @1200 fps will hit hard but a .38 Special 158gr bullet @950 fps will hit harder. It will also create a larger permanent wound cavity and that's important. Don't let the marketing weenies win, velocity alone isn't everything. Carry what you shoot best, both will stop the bad guy but the .38 Spl will do it better. :neener:

[lloveless]

Charter arms has 9mm and .40 in a snub revolver. Neither uses moon clips.
http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Pitbull_79920.asp
ll

[R.W.Dale]

I guess the marketing weenies have won. They have convinced a large portion of the buyers they need a super fast round to do a good job and that round comes at a premium price. Marketing Weenies one, buyers nothing but the higher prices!

Well, if that were true, how do you explain rounds like the 45-70 just to mention one. The .45-70 will push a 405gr lead bullet clear through a Buffalo and at only 1400 fps from the muzzle. Heavy and slow works and works well. Sure a 9mm 124gr bullet @1200 fps will hit hard but a .38 Special 158gr bullet @950 fps will hit harder. It will also create a larger permanent wound cavity and that's important. Don't let the marketing weenies win, velocity alone isn't everything. Carry what you shoot best, both will stop the bad guy but the .38 Spl will do it better. :neener:


so 45-70 = 38spl I'll remember that next time I plan to go out and shoot through a buffalo :rolleyes: In the meantime getting an unsuspecting buffalo to die somewhere within eyeshot of where shot on the great plains and preventing a methhead from stabbing you in the face with a screwdriver in a wal mart parking lot require very diffrent things from a bullet.

9mm from a snubby will do this (124 GD +P @1150fps) I assure you your 158g 38 load ISN'T hitting harder than this.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/snubby%20revolvers/2012-08-18102747-1.jpg

[ArchAngelCD]

so 45-70 = 38spl I'll remember that next time I plan to go out and shoot through a buffalo :rolleyes: In the meantime getting an unsuspecting buffalo to die somewhere within eyeshot of where shot on the great plains and preventing a methhead from stabbing you in the face with a screwdriver in a wal mart parking lot require very diffrent things from a bullet.

9mm from a snubby will do this (124 GD +P @1150fps) I assure you your 158g 38 load ISN'T hitting harder than this.
Don't be a wise guy and talk down to me! You know darn well I did not say a 45-70 = .38 Special. I was making a point that is a slow and big rifle round works well on very tough game a slightly slower and heavier handgun round will work well on a soft target like a man. Besides, most of my post was aimed at not letting marketing push your decision making in one direction or another but you you didn't mention those parts of my thread.

You trying to make me sound like a fool was uncalled for and not very High Road!

[jad0110]

IMHO, there is no appreciable difference in quality loadings of either. Heck, you can say the same for most medium and big bore handgun calibers. Pick the platform and chambering that work for you and don't worry about it. :cool:

[jad0110]

Where did you find a .38+P load that delivers 400 ft. lbs. of energy?

These make over 450 from a 4" barrel:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

But, like others here, I'm not as concerned as much with energy. As long as the projectile has enough of it to do what I want it to (namely, penetrate adequately and offer expansion as a bonus), I'm happy. The advertised ft-lbs don't mean a lot if a crummy bullet is being pushed.

Very nice Taurus BTW :cool:! The bluing on that one looks much better than many of the newer Smiths I've seen in the last few years.

[R.W.Dale]

Buffalo bore ballistics are quick and easy to quote from various bbl lengths.

The problem is that in lower pressure rounds I don't believe for a second they're loaded within saami specifications. Especially when they come with a cleverly worded warning stating that they're not recommended in all guns so chambered

"These 38SPL+P loads are generating low-end 357 magnum, ballistics. If you have an older or more fragile 38SPL, or if you are recoil sensitive, consider using our HVY Standard Pressure 38SPL ammunition. It is safe to be fired in any 38SPL revolver and it still packs much more punch than ordinary 38SPL ammo."

Now does anyone who knows anything about ammunition or reloading actually believe that almost 1200fps from a 4" 38spl w 158 grain bullets is going to happen at only 18,500 psi?

Or is this another instance of "magic powders" we can't get :rolleyes:

[ljnowell]

Don't be a wise guy and talk down to me! You know darn well I did not say a 45-70 = .38 Special. I was making a point that is a slow and big rifle round works well on very tough game a slightly slower and heavier handgun round will work well on a soft target like a man. Besides, most of my post was aimed at not letting marketing push your decision making in one direction or another but you you didn't mention those parts of my thread.

You trying to make me sound like a fool was uncalled for and not very High Road!


Thats typical in any 9mm vs ? thread. The super fanboys come out and try every analogy to put anything they can into the other sides mouth. I noticed earlier when someone said "If 38 is so great, why is there a 357?" I posted back, "if 9mm is so great why is there a 357 sig and a 9x23?" No answer there.

Fact is, I will take my 158gr LSWC-HP that expands just as well as any 9mm hollowpoint. Its heavier, expands just as well, and packs a wallop. 9mm is going to kill something any better than dead.

[R.W.Dale]

Don't be a wise guy and talk down to me! You know darn well I did not say a 45-70 = .38 Special. I was making a point that is a slow and big rifle round works well on very tough game a slightly slower and heavier handgun round will work well on a soft target like a man. Besides, most of my post was aimed at not letting marketing push your decision making in one direction or another but you you didn't mention those parts of my thread.

You trying to make me sound like a fool was uncalled for and not very High Road!

Spare me the contrived sanctimony

So its high road to imply that if you understand ballistics and basic physics that you're merely a simple mind falling for marketing hype.

But its not high road to explain how what the Buffalo hunters on the plains need from a bullet is vastly different than what the average ccw'er needs. Even though you did ask "how do you explain"

38 has only been around a few years longer than 9x19. Both were designed when Victoria was still queen. You're hardly falling for the "marketing Weenies hype" by selecting the latter.


This is the only thing that matters and explains everything said so far

38spl +p 18,500 psi saami Max
9mm +p 38,000 psi saami Max

Loaded with the same bullets in the same length barrels to their respective pressure limits NO 38 spl load WILL EVER match the ballistics of 9mm

[R.W.Dale]

Thats typical in any 9mm vs ? thread. The super fanboys come out and try every analogy to put anything they can into the other sides mouth. I noticed earlier when someone said "If 38 is so great, why is there a 357?" I posted back, "if 9mm is so great why is there a 357 sig and a 9x23?" No answer there. .


Are 357 sig-9x23 as popular in comparison to 9mm as 357 is relative to 38 spl?

How many 9x23 or 357 sig cases do you pick up on the range compared to 9mm?

Do any major police forces or military branches still issue 38? Many did including our USAF just a few years ago. Do they now? If not what did they replace it with?

I'm fully convinced that in 1901 the German high command invented the perfect handgun cartridge that's only gotten better with more modern bullets as evidenced by the fact that even today most even new pistol cartridges run similar pressure envelopes.

300 years from now after we've perfected FTL travel and are buzzing around the galaxy in spaceships those spaceships will still have a 9mm handgun in their escape pod emergency survival kits.

[ljnowell]

Are 357 sig-9x23 as popular in comparison to 9mm as 357 is relative to 38 spl?

How many 9x23 or 357 sig cases do you pick up on the range compared to 9mm?


Sounds like I touched a nerve. Doeswnt matter how common, they were created after the 9mm, same as 357 and 38.

9mm isnt as popular as it is because of its terrific manstopping abilities. If you think that you are lost.

[R.W.Dale]

9mm isnt as popular as it is because of its terrific manstopping abilities. If you think that you are lost.

OK then why is it if its largely ineffective? And what does that say about the significantly weaker 38spl?

Any way shape or form of derision against 9mm applies even more so to 38spl. Its the same diameter bullet at even less velocity from the same lenght barrel. I'm sorry physics always apply even if you are a fanboi of the less powerful chambering

I got news for ya 38 is not exactly a manstopping caliber either

[poco loco]

Here.is.the.apples.to.apples,comparison......great.site...great.info.and.very.accurate

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

I.know.one.of.the.testers.and.they.did.good.work

sorry.about.the.formatting...broken.spacebar....

[R.W.Dale]

Here.is.the.apples.to.apples,comparison......great.site...great.info.and.very.accurate

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

I.know.one.of.the.testers.and.they.did.good.work

sorry.about.the.formatting...broken.spacebar....

It bears stressing though that a 2" barrel as tested by BBTI is NOT the same as a 2" barrel on a revolver where the cylinders length is not factored in.

The BBTI encore data is apples to apples. The actual handgun data however isn't.

[Propforce]

This is the only thing that matters and explains everything said so far

38spl +p 18,500 psi saami Max
9mm +p 38,000 psi saami Max

Loaded with the same bullets in the same length barrels to their respective pressure limits NO 38 spl load WILL EVER match the ballistics of 9mm

Hi guys, a newbie here. I have a geniune question and not meant to stir the pot.

If the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure than the .38, then why doesn't one load the 9mm with 158 grain bullet?

I think this will settle "velocity" vs. "mass" argument.

[Propforce]

Another question is

If I were to pack a side arm in the woods against 4-leg animals, which one will be more effective, the 9mm or the .38 spcl ?

[X-Rap]

The 9mm shines in its ability to carry 2-3 x the rounds of a compact revolver in a similar package and faster reloads.
I'm betting the data reporting the potency of either cartridge in actual shootings would be quite inconclusive given the various bullet style, weights, and velocities in use.

[R.W.Dale]

Hi guys, a newbie here. I have a geniune question and not meant to stir the pot.

If the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure than the .38, then why doesn't one load the 9mm with 158 grain bullet?

I think this will settle "velocity" vs. "mass" argument.

Why do you assume they don't?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/621134/sbr-special-application-subsonic-sas-ammunition-9mm-luger-158-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/295755/fiocchi-shooting-dynamics-ammunition-9mm-luger-158-grain-full-metal-jacket-subsonic-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/690306/prvi-partizan-ammunition-9mm-luger-158-grain-full-metal-jacket-box-of-50

[R.W.Dale]

Another question is

If I were to pack a side arm in the woods against 4-leg animals, which one will be more effective, the 9mm or the .38 spcl ?

What kind of four legged critters?

If up north with either round the "grind the front sight off" quip seems appropriate to describe the situation

[Propforce]

Originally Posted by Propforce
Hi guys, a newbie here. I have a geniune question and not meant to stir the pot.

If the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure than the .38, then why doesn't one load the 9mm with 158 grain bullet?

I think this will settle "velocity" vs. "mass" argument.

Why do you assume they don't?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/621...oint-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/295...onic-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/690...cket-box-of-50
__________________

Thanks for the link. I did not realize they do sell 158 grain subsonic in 9mm

From your links

SBR Special Application Subsonic (SAS) Ammunition 9mm Luger 158 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 50
Ballistics Information:
•Muzzle Velocity: 845 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 250 ft. lbs.

Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics Ammunition 9mm Luger 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket Subsonic Box of 50
Ballistics Information:
•Muzzle Velocity: 940 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 309 ft. lbs.

Prvi Partizan Ammunition 9mm Luger 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 50
Ballistics Information:
•Muzzle Velocity: 951 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 317 ft. lbs


Also from the same website

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/548921/remington-express-ammunition-38-special-p-158-grain-lead-hollow-point-box-of-50
Remington Express Ammunition 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Hollow Point Box of 50
Technical Information
Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171388/buffalo-bore-ammunition-38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check-box-of-20
Buffalo Bore Ammunition 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point Gas Check Box of 20
Ballistics Information:
•Muzzle Velocity: 1000 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 351 ft. lbs.

•S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
•S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
•Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
•S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)


So it would seem, given the same bullet diameter & weight, the 9mm can only go subsonic. As such the performance are on-par with each other, depending on manufacturers.

It maybe a better comparison if the 9mm has the 158 grn with +P?

[Propforce]

What kind of four legged critters?

If up north with either round the "grind the front sight off" quip seems appropriate to describe the situation

LOL. So neither is suitable against 4-legged animals?

[R.W.Dale]

__________________

Thanks for the link. I did not realize they do sell 158 grain subsonic in 9mm

From your links


Also from the same website


So it would seem, given the same bullet diameter & weight, the 9mm can only go subsonic. As such the performance are on-par with each other, depending on manufacturers.

It maybe a better comparison if the 9mm has the 158 grn with +P?

On the box ballistics are usually so far off base as to make such comparisons pointless. And we've discussed ad nauseaum how Buffalo bore overloads are just that overloads.

147g+ 9mm is loaded subsonic on purpose for use in suppressed weapons

But in either case the point is clear even with the heaviest loads for both 9mm does the same thing as 38 and with lighter more common SD bullet weights there's simply no comparison. The fact that the 38 is so special fans keep going back to one Buffalo Bore loading instead of citing the plethora of real world chrony reports is quite telling.

I have revolvers in both cartridges and a Chronograph. I KNOW wich is more powerful. Its you guys without the equipment nor the desire to find out for yourselves who want to convince yourselves of an outcome that runs contrary to the numbers

[R.W.Dale]

LOL. So neither is suitable against 4-legged animals?

No you grind the front sight off so when a bear takes that 38/9mm away from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine it wont hurt as much

[JohnKSa]

Velocity and not energy is the fuel that bullets use to expand.Actually, velocity and energy are exactly the fuel that cause bullets to expand.

However, these days, the bullet designers can achieve reliable expansion with lower energy/velocity numbers than in the past--with less fuel than before, if you will.

I agree that while there are reasons to choose either the 9mm or the .38spl over the other, terminal performance isn't really one of them.

[R.W.Dale]

Actually, velocity and energy are exactly the fuel that cause bullets to expand.

However, these days, the bullet designers can achieve reliable expansion with lower energy/velocity numbers than in the past.

I agree that while there are reasons to choose either the 9mm or the .38spl over the other, terminal performance isn't really one of them.

I don't agree.

I've been studying gel test after gel test for defense loads in short revolvers. I see a common theme. If the velocity is under 1000fps you are either going to get expansion with very shallow penatration or no expansion with very deep penatration. Being a firm believer in the forged in blood 12" min FBI penatration requirements I feel this is very important.


I think a common mistake folks make when selecting a load is they assume a load tested in a 4" 686 will do the same thing in their 2" m60. If you look at brassfetchers testing on the round and sort out the BB overloads it reads like a what's what list of ammunition that doesn't make 12"

Here's some more recent numbers from my 2" 9mm revolver.

124g hornady custom XTP
1076-1085-1090-1088

124g Speer gold dot +p
1178-1166-1143-1140-1139

These compare VERY favorably to brassfetchers 38 tests even allowing for the use of BB ammo

[Library Guy]

Thirty years ago the results of this debate would have beeen very different. Back then, a 9mm was a belt holster pistol firing FMJ ammunition. At this same time, the .38 (revolver & ammunition) came in all sizes and performance levels.

If you wanted a concealable auto you were confined to the .380 ACP- again in mostly FMJ loadings.

Since then, development of the .38 (revolver & ammunition) has remained mostly static. While the 9mm has been around all our lives, the changes in these pistols and ammunition in the last two decades have been dramatic. The 9mm is now a highly refined and potent CCW option.

[Propforce]

But in either case the point is clear even with the heaviest loads for both 9mm does the same thing as 38 and with lighter more common SD bullet weights there's simply no comparison. The fact that the 38 is so special fans keep going back to one Buffalo Bore loading instead of citing the plethora of real world chrony reports is quite telling.

I have revolvers in both cartridges and a Chronograph. I KNOW wich is more powerful. Its you guys without the equipment nor the desire to find out for yourselves who want to convince yourselves of an outcome that runs contrary to the numbers

I concede that what's advertised on the box is not the same as what you tested in your gun. But at the lack of one-to-one comparison, at least the 'advertised' ballistic info can be used as a ballpark number to categorized these info, at least for newbies like me.

Just for fun I also checked the 124/ 125 grain ballistic comparison between the 9mm and the 38 spcl, both +P's. My reason for doing so is an attempt to compare both caliber to as much of apple-to-apple as possible.

The .38 specl with 125 grain +P

Remington UMC Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
Ballistic Information
•Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs.

Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Point
Muzzle velocity: 975 fps
Muzzle energy: 264 ft/lb

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1050 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 306 ft. lbs.


The 9mm with 124 grain +P

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 364 ft. lbs

Black Hills Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 430 ft. lbs.

So it is true that, at lower bullet weight, the 9mm performs better (in terms of velocity, since mass is ~ equal) at the muzzle.

So it would seem, if one has 9mm he/she would want to use lighter bullet. For a .38 spcl, he/she would want to use heavier bullet. The question is, can a bad guy tell the difference when hit?

This is not to start a caliber war. As a newbie I am still processing these infromation as to what is better to use on which caliber, etc.

I also recognize that energy discharged (at muzzle) is NOT the same as energy absorbed by the target (human flesh, paper, etc.). There are a lot more factors that go into that equation.

The other consideration is also the felt-recoil by each gun/ caliber, and that is not categorize by the muzzle energy, but is by muzzle momentum (bullet mass * velocity) minus the momentum absorbed by the gun (weight, slide movements, etc.) and finally what is felt by the shooter (width of the grip, the wider the grip the lower the felt recoil, and shock absorbing materials).

Ultimately regardless of caliber, it is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

[Tcruse]

The weight and speed of the bullet is only one factor. .38Spl, .357Mag, .357Sig, and 9mm all have overlap on weight and speed (depending on load and gun). Now, the bigger question is bullet design. If we look at only the best bullets available then the manufactures have done a really fine job of making the service level calibers match the FBI "specifications". Now, I am not sure that the .38 spl provides the same level of compensation to the ammo manufactures to put the design work on these. The market place seems to have choosen 9mm (with .40S&W and .45ACP second)

Some interesting links:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#9mm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/Winchester_LE_Catalog.pdf

[R.W.Dale]

Ultimately regardless of caliber, it is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

On that we are in absolute agreement with the caveat that you have the penatration to make that shot count.

That's why my 32 h&r snubby is stoked with 98g hardcast wadcutters.

[murf]

post #11 tells the story: 9mm is better with 124 grain bullets; both equal with 158 grain bullets; 38 special better with heavier (180 grain) bullets.

am limiting this to internal ballistics only. platform, bullet type/construction, and terminal ballistics are a different story.

murf

[Propforce]

Hi Murf,

Yes post 11 summarized well. I guess my brain process information differently. Thanks for the reminder.

[ljnowell]

I'm fully convinced that in 1901 the German high command invented the perfect handgun cartridge that's only gotten better with more modern bullets as evidenced by the fact that even today most even new pistol cartridges run similar pressure envelopes.



I think that says it all right there. You are a fanboy. Nothing wrong with that. I am a 45 colt fanboy.

Also, Just to mention, pressure really isnt always everything about ballistics. You do understand how case capacity can measure into this as well, right?

[R.W.Dale]

Also, Just to mention, pressure really isnt always everything about ballistics. You do understand how case capacity can measure into this as well, right?

Its not so much I'm a fanboi its just that I have rifles and revolvers in both cartridges and the 9mm clearly and resoundingly out paces 38spl every time. If you had both platforms in both cartridges you'd be in agreement with me on this.

Yes and I also know that in short 3 inch or less handgun barrels its almost completely a function of pressure.

Get the barrel length up there to 5" + or even in a carbine and the higher expansion ratio really has legs.

But with a low pressure rating even in a long barrel 38 just doesn't really gain much. It all comes down to how much propellant (think fuel) you can burn and stay within saami pressures. Look at 9mm and 38 charge weights for given powders and this will become readily evident. 17k psi effectively keeps you from being able to use 38's greater capacity.

As a 45 colt fan you of all folks know what it takes to get long barrelled performance from the round. It involves raising pressures.

[ljnowell]

As a 45 colt fan you of all folks know what it takes to get long barrelled performance from the round. It involves raising pressures.


Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important. I can load a max pressure load of Bullseye and a max pressure load of 2400 and I can guarantee you they will NOT be the same muzzle velocity. Pressure alone does not dictate performance.

My opinion is this, I can load a 158gr LSWC-HP in my 38 and be just as effective as a 9mm. There is no real difference as far as impact and effectiveness.

[R.W.Dale]

Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important. I can load a max pressure load of Bullseye and a max pressure load of 2400 and I can guarantee you they will NOT be the same muzzle velocity. Pressure alone does not dictate performance.

My opinion is this, I can load a 158gr LSWC-HP in my 38 and be just as effective as a 9mm. There is no real difference as far as impact and effectiveness.

Can you get that kind of performance from 2400 UNDER 17K psi?

No you can't.

Case capacity and pressure rating dictate what propellants will be suitable.

I'm sorry there's no barrel length that will make a 17k psi cartridge outperform a 35k psi round firing THE SAME BULLETS

One only need to compare cartridges like 7mm-08 to 7x57 within saami pressures to see that case capacity almost never makes up enough to offset lower pressures

[ljnowell]

Can you get that kind of performance from 2400 UNDER 17K psi?

No you can't.

Case capacity and pressure rating dictate what propellants will be suitable.

I'm sorry there's no barrel length that will make a 17k psi cartridge outperform a 35k psi round firing THE SAME BULLETS

NO one says there is. Im not sure why you feel the need to argue with everyones statements no matter what is said. What I said above is fact, why argue with it? I never said that I would make it outperform. BTW, I have owned both in a similar platform. I now only own one of those. Im not the one arguing that 38 is better than 9mm, argue with someone else.

[Propforce]

Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important.

Can someone tell me the difference in the powders between 9mm and 38 spcl catridges? I know .38 spcl uses black powder so presumable a slower burn rate than the 9 mm who probably use smokeless powder?

Do they load the same amount of powder in each catridge? If not, which one has more powder in them?

[R.W.Dale]

Can someone tell me the difference in the powders between 9mm and 38 spcl catridges? I know .38 spcl uses black powder so presumable a slower burn rate than the 9 mm who probably use smokeless powder?

Do they load the same amount of powder in each catridge? If not, which one has more powder in them?

With the exclusion of CAS shooters loading 38 with black for cowboy action games for all intents and purposes 9mm and 38 not only use the same powders but use them in similar quantities.

[R.W.Dale]

NO one says there is. Im not sure why you feel the need to argue with everyones statements no matter what is said. What I said above is fact, why argue with it? I never said that I would make it outperform. BTW, I have owned both in a similar platform. I now only own one of those. Im not the one arguing that 38 is better than 9mm, argue with someone else.

I apologize if I come across argumentative. I don't mean to at all I just really enjoy these more "nerdy" caliber wars where the internal ballistics come up for debate as with this one.

[ljnowell]

I apologize if I come across argumentative. I don't mean to at all I just really enjoy these more "nerdy" caliber wars where the internal ballistics come up for debate as with this one.


I can appreciate that. I think that this is right up there with the 40 S&W vs 45 acp debate. There is a lot to be said for either. In my opinion, I like my 38 special and my 45 acp.

[R.W.Dale]

I can appreciate that. I think that this is right up there with the 40 S&W vs 45 acp debate. There is a lot to be said for either. In my opinion, I like my 38 special and my 45 acp.

I really like both 38/357 and 9mm I recently moved away from the larger bore stuff purely because the $$ per shot equation wasn't coming out as I liked.

[Propforce]

With the exclusion of CAS shooters loading 38 with black for cowboy action games for all intents and purposes 9mm and 38 not only use the same powders but use them in similar quantities.
Thanks.

So with the same powders and similar quantities, yet the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure. This must has to do with the case volume.

I also imagine that the 9mm need the pressure to cycle the slide whereas the .38 spcl does not. But the .38 spcl loses a bit of pressure in the gap between the cyclinder and the barrel.

[Propforce]

I really like both 38/357 and 9mm I recently moved away from the larger bore stuff purely because the $$ per shot equation wasn't coming out as I liked.
I have 38/357, 9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP. I enjoy shooting them all. I am using my "stocked" ammo as the price of ammo these days are quite high, even a .38 spcl is 30+ cents/ round in today's prices.

BTW, if anyone has a good lead on where to buy bulk on .38 spcl 158 gr +P LSWC-HP, please let me know. I like to get them down to 35 cents/round.

[ljnowell]

BTW, if anyone has a good lead on where to buy bulk on .38 spcl 158 gr +P LSWC-HP, please let me know. I like to get them down to 35 cents/round.
I reload so I get them much cheaper than that! As far as your earlier comment, I do agree with you, in the 38 special the heavier bullets are the better choice, in my opinion. Everyone wants to base decisions on FT lbs of energy, but the strength of the 38 is being able to get that 158gr lswc-hp up to the velocity it does, it performs great there!

[Propforce]

I reload so I get them much cheaper than that! As far as your earlier comment, I do agree with you, in the 38 special the heavier bullets are the better choice, in my opinion. Everyone wants to base decisions on FT lbs of energy, but the strength of the 38 is being able to get that 158gr lswc-hp up to the velocity it does, it performs great there!
Thanks. I'd figure that each caliber has an optimal range where it shines. I just like to figure what range for each caliber. Both the 9mm and the .38 spcl do not kick particularly hard in a right gun, so both can be learned how to shoot well.

I should look into learning about reloading, but that's another ramp on the learning curve. I will get there, just give it time. :)

[C0untZer0]

That's a cool picture of the Taurus 905.

I'm chompin at the bit for that Charter Arms 9mm PITBULL

Should actually be arriving at gun stores any month now...

[ljnowell]

I should look into learning about reloading, but that's another ramp on the learning curve. I will get there, just give it time.

We have a great reloading forum here! I would encourage you to come over and read all you can for a while, ask questions, you will be a leg up when you do decide to reload.

[orionengnr]

If you prefer a revolver, there are a number of small, light .38 Spl revolvers. I have owned a bunch of them.

At a certain point I realized that my 9mm (Kahr PM9) was smaller and easier to carry, held +2 rounds compared to the j-frame, and was capable of being reloaded far more quickly. The fact that I shoot the PM9 better did not hurt one bit. :)

After putting enough rounds through the PM9 to trust it, all six of my j-frames went up for sale.

I miss them, once in a while. But not enough to buy another one. :)

[Elm Creek Smith]

My wife doesn't like "guns that shoot back," so semiautomatics in any caliber were pretty much a dead issue for her. Many women (and, to be fair, some men) have issues working the slide on a 9mm semiautomatic of any size, let alone a small one.

My wife's carry gun (yes, concealed) is a 4 inch S&W Model 681 loaded with Speer 135 grain Gold Dot .38 Special +P "Short Barrel" ammunition. It chronos at just a bit over 1000 fps out of that revolver with no flash.

My younger daughter's carry gun is a KelTec P11 9mm that won't feed heavy bullet loads worth a d@&%, but with 115 grain standard pressure Silvertips she's fast and accurate with it.

I just erased a bunch of stuff that was unnecessary to the discussion. The key is to let her pick the gun which should drive the caliber. A .38 Special with modern defensive ammunition (need not be Buffalo Bore) or a 9X19mm with modern defensive ammunition will do the trick. Whatever she can shoot quickly and accurately is what she should carry.

I habitually carry a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3 loaded with Speer 135 grain Gold Dot .357 "Short Barrel" ammunition (the same as my duty load) and a 1⅞ inch S&W Model 37 loaded with Buffalo Bore SAAMI standard pressure 158 grain LSWCHP-GC .38 Special ammo when off duty. I trust them both.

ECS

[S&Wfan]

The wimpy .38 Special round is lame . . . ESPECIALLY in the cheap ol' 158gn. lead ROUNDNOSE version, and fired out of a snubby, like this Colt Detective Special!

Heck, the shooter didn't even bother aiming either.

Folks, obscess all your want over velocities, bullet type, "stopping power," but the .38 Special is a fine, fine round for concealed self defense.

Just ask Lee Harvey Oswald how it felt! Oops, I forgot . . . he ain't talkin!

And . . . wasn't it just the day before that when Oswald shot Officer Tippit with a .38, out of the barrel of an old surplus S&W Victory revolver. Tippit ain't talking either.

http://www.foothilltech.org/ccrouch/photography/gallery_images/life/images/lee%20harvery%20oswald%20shot.jpg

[Certaindeaf]

^
I think they were both trying to fight their way to their rifles.

[ljnowell]

I think they were both trying to fight their way to their rifles.

Looks like they didnt make it either.

[Confederate]

Bullet configuration plays a great deal in stopping power, and the 9mm took a few years to come into its own. I now have a great deal of respect for the 9mm, especially the 115 grain JHP and the Federal 135 grain JHP Hydra-Shok 20-round pack. On the other hand, the round nose configuration is considered one of the worst, and there are numerous cases where people have been shot repeatedly and still keep on coming.

That said, many of the soldiers I've talked to returning from overseas have said they prefer the round nose. The high capacity appeals to them as well as its ability to penetrate heavy clothing and home made body armor.

There are a lot of great guns made for 9mm, especially the second- and third-generation S&Ws and the stainless Taurus models.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/Taurus92_4a.jpg

The Taurus stainless 9mm.

.

[tnelson31]

I know right. If we're not going to discuss and compare various cartridges and forearms on a GUN FORUM then what the heck are we going to post about?
The man?

[Certaindeaf]

^
We have a right to bare them.

[R.W.Dale]

^
We have a right to bare them.

Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to catch every stupid nonsensical substitution that android's autocomplete makes.

I used to keep tapatalks sig on so you guys could know why but folks got all bent out of shape over it.

Either way though it does provided some great comedy

[easyg]

Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to catch every stupid nonsensical substitution that android's autocomplete makes.
Disable it and it will save you a lot of grief.

[Propforce]

Whatever she can shoot quickly and accurately is what she should carry.

ECS
And one of key points to be able to shoot accurately is to be able to manage that RECOIL. I find that I can shoot much more accurately with a heavier gun regardless of the caliber. I can shoot more accurately on a .357 magnum with S&W 686 than I could on a .38 with a J frame, same thing on a 9 mm with a S&W 5906 than a 6906. The 5906 almost has no recoil. But also recognizing that a J frame serves a different purpose than a 686.

[Martel]

Well, you're not going to believe this, but I actually got her a .32 acp Kel tec. She likes it but doesn't shoot it much... I use it as a back-up carry most of the time. She is just going to take more time before she is interested in carrying a firearm for self-defense.