[TreeDoc]

Have looking at some data about the 410 shotgun loads, it seems out of a 18 1/ inch shotgun, velocity of 1200 and #4 buck (350 grains) would pretty leathal. Have a female friend who wants one, she's tried the 12, NO. She's tried the 20, NO. 410 she likes. What say the experts?

[gp911]

I like the 3" 5 pellet 000 buckshot for HD. Period. I've shot a lot of materials with it and it hits hard while patterning well in my guns. Ymmv.

[duns]

410 for home defense might be better than 12 ga because of lower blast, noise, and recoil. On the other hand, 12 ga will fire more pellets of any given size, so might be better than 410. Looks to me like a case of balancing the pros and cons and no clear cut winner in general. Since your friend feels she can't handle a 12 ga or even a 20 ga, then that would seem to tip the balance in favor of the 410, at least for her.

[RMc]

Before the final decision, have your friend try a light weight 12 gauge loaded with reduced recoil LE 8 pellet 00B. This 1 ounce 1145 fps load has less recoil than 20 gauge buckshot. Recoil should be similar to a 11/16th ounce load from a lighter .410 bore.

This tight patterning 8 pellet Federal LE 00B load with Flite-Control wad is now the most popular youth and ladies buckshot load in Southern deer camps.

[pps]

If .410 is the only thing she is willing to use, then get her a .410. Throw in the load mentioned above with 5 000bk pellets. I wouldn't want to get hit with that crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ

[Rail Driver]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the 12ga and the 20ga that your friend tried were NOT fitted to her properly, and/or she didn't mount the guns properly - With heavier kicking firearms such as shotguns and large bore rifles, the fundamentals are so much more important - If you don't or can't hold the weapon properly either due to lack of experience or a gun that doesn't fit you, you'll end up sore or injured as well as being less accurate than with a gun that fits properly and is held/shouldered properly. My 90lb sister goes through just as many boxes of slugs as I do every time I visit up north and take her shooting - her shotgun fits her properly, and she's been taught the proper way to shoot a shotgun.

[Pfletch83]

With the right loads a .410 is on fairly equal footing with the other gauges mentioned (maybe even better due to the low weight and recoil of the .410,plus ammo load out will be boosted quite a bit over the 12 and 20)

#4 Buck-'000' buck are still booking it out the muzzle at a good velocity,and at home defense ranges anyone on the bad side of it will be in for a time and a half.

I would recommend the DFG Mk-1 (wood stock) or DFG Mk-2 (synthetic stock)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLllXhNvMI&feature=plcp

The DFG Mk-1 has a 14-inch L.O.P while the DFG Mk-2 has an inch shorter 13-inch L.O.P.

(If the stock is still too long the best way to go might be to trim the synthetic stock down to fit)

[snooperman]

A proper fitting gun makes all the difference whether for home defense, hunting , or clay shoots. My wife shoots a 12 ga , and hunts with one too. The Ithaca gun was fitted for her. Recoil is not a problem even though she weighs about 130lbs. My 2 cents

[Skribs]

One of the basic strategies for choosing a self defense caliber is to use the biggest caliber you can reliably handle. If that is a .410, go with that.

However, I have to ask if she would be better off with a rifle than with a .410? There's definite power in the 12-gauge, but you have about half the power in a 3" .410 as you do in a 2.75" 12-gauge. At that point, you might be better served with a .223 instead.

[303tom]

A load of 3 in.# 4`s out of a .410 shotgun at 15 to 25 feet is just going to poke a big hole in ya............

[303tom]

What ever you use, at Home Defense range, 10 to 30 feet the shot is not even going to get out of the shot cup.............

[oneounceload]

There's definite power in the 12-gauge, but you have about half the power in a 3" .410

Not necessarily - folks talk about using handguns for HD - 1200 fps is faster than a 38 and nipping on the heels of the 357 while being typically faster than a lot of 9mm
A 410 buckshot load will do the job if the person can't handle the 12 and 20, better to get her something she WILL use and feel comfortable practicing with than something she is afraid of and won't practice with

[Skribs]

What I mean is you typically have 9 pellets of 00B in a 2.75" 12-ga load and 5 pellets of 000B in a 3" .410 load (okay, so not half the power, but you still lose a lot of pattern and lead going downrange).

I'm also not saying the .410 is bad, but if you're wanting HD power with less recoil, switching from the shotgun platform to a rifle is probably a better bet, because of how the rifle does its wounding.

I do advocate the use of .410 revolvers for SD, but .410 vs. .357 magnum is a big difference between .410 vs. .223 Remington. In my personal situation, I probably would go with a .410 over an AR, simply because I can use .410 at the range I go to and there aren't any rifle ranges nearby. I'm just saying it's something to consider.

[rcmodel]

The Mossberg 510 Mini Super-Bantam in .410 looks awful interesting to me for a small person.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=41&section=products

I pity the fool that gets in front of one!

rc

[pps]

To everyone who recommended a properly fitting 20 or 12ga....no argument here that fit is paramount importance. However, if mama has it in her head already that 20 and 12ga are just too much to handle...I'll get her a .410. If my wife tells me a 410 is the only way she will agree to shoot...then I'm not arguing with mama about fit...I'm getting her the 410. If mama isn't happy...nobody is going to be happy.

[Samari Jack]

A quality double .410 with appropriately short or shortened barrels would be quick handling and easy to use.

[oneounceload]

Of course, in between there IS the 28 gauge..........:D

Just sayin'................;)

[Rail Driver]

My point wasn't to try and talk her into a 12 or 20 - my point was to get her a properly fitted .410 so that she can learn to shoot properly. Eventually she'll see the potential and veritable shortcomings of the .410 versus a larger bore, and may be willing to try something stouter (and properly fitted) in the future.

Fit is very important - but so is proper fundamentals.

[oneounceload]

ANY gun needs proper fitting - even handguns for someone to enjoy shooting them and also to allow them to hit their intended target - goes without question

Many women shy away from 12 gauge guns because somewhere in their past, someone thought it would be funny to have them touch some uber-powerful round, almost knocking them on the butt - there are too many you tubes with jerks gladly filming that;
hopefully that isn't the case here as that will be hard to overcome

[451 Detonics]

The Mossberg pump with the 2 1/2 Federal 000 buck load would be my recommendation as well. This shell makes about 1350 fps with 4 000 pellet out of a 18 inch barrel.

Personally I would prefer a small stature person go with a M1 Carbine instead of the 410 shotgun for home defense. Having 20 rounds of CorBon DPX on hand would be very effective in discouraging aggressive behavior.

I would prescribe:

100gr Cu, I.M., PRN
2 refills

[pps]

oneounceload
Member


Join Date: April 24, 2008
Location: Hot and Humid FL
Posts: 8,448

Of course, in between there IS the 28 gauge..........

Just sayin'................

Oh dear Lord...that's all I need is one more caliber/gauge to add to my reloading bench. My wife would kill me....and I don't think I can pull off, "But precious...I bought this for YOU!"....Don't think she'll fall for that again.

[IMTHDUKE]

Just tell her to eat her wheaties and just show this to a home invader and it will change his attitude.:D
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/Mossberg.jpg

[SHR970]

The bore that shall not be mentioned (410) aka 1/2 a 12 gauge that she is not intimidated by and she will consider / practice with is far better than a 12 gauge that she is now / probably unwilling to try again. At across the room distances, the 410 with decent buck loads will make an interesting wound channel, does not suffer for lack of penetration, and delivers adequate energy to the target. Pity the fool who is on the wrong end of one and scoffs at the size of the muzzle....he is either crazy, on drugs, or both. The 410 with a proper load can cure him of these maladies PDQ.

[au_prospector]

The Mossberg 510 Mini Super-Bantam in .410 looks awful interesting to me for a small person.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/def...ction=products

I pity the fool that gets in front of one!

rc

I was looking at that exact shotgun for my daughter. Comes with adjustable LOP too!
Personally, I would avoid a rifle platform for HD, for the massive penetration thing. Would not want the liability of .223 or .308 rounds leaving my home when I pull the trigger. #3 or #4 buck is plenty mean, even in a .410

[Skribs]

Au_prospector, self defense rounds from a .223 or .308 are designed not to overpenetrate, and actually are safer after going through a wall than buckshot is. They have more energy, yes, but at the velocity rifle rounds go, the bullet engineers are able to control how that energy is spent.

[CountryUgly]

I've seen a lot of deer fall to the old .410 and I'd expect it would have the same effect on a man. 3 inch buck shot out of a .410 ain't no joke. I think it'll work just fine.

[Pfletch83]

The four pellet 2-1/2 inch load from Federal has a higher velocity than the 3-inch stuff.

Plus the 2-1/2 inch load allows a pump or autoloader to be loaded to it's total magazine capacity.

The 2-1/2 inch shell offers the best properties of the .410 defensive load even though it carries one less pellet than the 3-inch shell.

[Fred Fuller]

Nothing at all wrong with a good .410 for defensive use, in steady hands. But the shooter is still far more important than the gun. She needs good training, to build skill and confidence.

The new PDN video on pump shotguns is a good starting point for beginners, if that's the action style she's getting - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=659169.

[gp911]

I've heard others echo what pfletch said about the 2-1/2" 4 pellet buckshot, but I haven't tested any to corroborate the claims yet. I'll have to give it a shot, no pun intended.

[TreeDoc]

Thanks for all the replies. As to fit, yes she was using my shotguns, but both are fitted with limb savers to tame recoil, but they are probably an inch to long. Fundamentals, I feel that I have a fair amount of experience and have taught her well, she does very good on the ruger 10 22. I think recoil is a very subjective thing. On forums, I always read about someone's 12 year old dauther the shoots full house 44 magnums all day with no complaint. I grew up hunting and shooting and I don't prefer the 44 magnum. I think we'll be going shopping for a 410.

[Pfletch83]

Glad to hear,make sure to post some pics.

[Nicky Santoro]

OP,
5 pellets of 000 in the airbags? Is 12 ga more effective? Yes. Is .410 shabby? Not hardly. I'm guessing that Mr. Intruder would have some issues catching his breath after a dose of that magic.

[Deltaboy]

Any pump or auto loading 410 with buckshot and rifled slugs will do the job inside a home.

As I posted the other day I seen a guy in the cooler with 6 22 long rifles in his chest. The Dr said the police said he took 2 steps and dropped dead.

[Texan Scott]

On a related note, can anyone point me at a good 410 bore pump for HD/ truck gun? I know mossberg makes a couple, but i'm not pleased with either, for a couple reasons. remi870 is a kid's trap gun, not really a social gun... i'd have thought that with the judge/sw govnr thing being so popular, somebody would make a good 18.5", extend-tube cylander bore without unneccessary googaws.

[jeepnik]

On a related note, can anyone point me at a good 410 bore pump for HD/ truck gun? I know mossberg makes a couple, but i'm not pleased with either, for a couple reasons. remi870 is a kid's trap gun, not really a social gun... i'd have thought that with the judge/sw govnr thing being so popular, somebody would make a good 18.5", extend-tube cylander bore without unneccessary googaws.
The Mossberg .410 while out of the box isn't really a great truck gun. It's a bit "long".

I needed a new "Jeep" gun after deciding that my .22 AR-7 was a bit light (mine is accurate and reliable). While casting about I came across my first shotgun a Model 500 .410. With the original barrel, even broken down into two pieces it was still "long".

What I did was shorten the barrel to 18.5". Picked up a synthetic youth stock. Made a new stock bolt that was longer and ended in a sort of butterfly arrangement. And lastly, I removed the buttplate screws and use heavy duty velcro to attach it.

What I ended up with is a shotgun that breaks down to about 20" in length. Takes about 30 seconds to assemble (if I need a quick reation weapon, that's what my handgun is for). And with an assortment of shot and slugs is capable of handling everything from birds to bunnies to bears (well, tiny bears anyway.:D

So, here it is, "THE PERFECT JEEP GUN".

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/Jeepnik/GUNS/IMG_4674.jpg

Shown with my AR-7 for size comparison.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/Jeepnik/GUNS/JEEPGUNS5.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f271/Jeepnik/GUNS/JEEPGUNS4.jpg

[heeler]

Pretty neat set up Jeepnik.
I actually knew a guy several years ago that had one of those AR-7 .22's,but his was not reliable.

[jeepnik]

Pretty neat set up Jeepnik.
I actually knew a guy several years ago that had one of those AR-7 .22's,but his was not reliable.
Mine's a Charter Arms. I got a good one. I think you have a better chance of getting one that functions reliably and is accurate if you get an old C A rather than the newer Henrys or Suvival Arms.

[Hapworth]

Echoing others, for home defense a .410 shotgun using 2-3/4" buck load (I'm a fan of Federal's) is an excellent platform: light; very low recoil; posts good ballistic numbers in standardized tests.

Suggest one of the Mossberg 500E variants; either the Cruiser with the bantam synthetic buttstock added, or the Field swapped out with an 18.5" barrel.

[Old judge creek]

Tellya this... I'd LOVE to have a 410 SxS Coach Gun choked Full and Modified and wearing a slender 19th century style stock and forend.

The Stoeger's I looked at were the closest I've seen to even approach that configuration. I have a Stoeger Uplander 410 with (I think) 24" barrels fore sure with Full & Mod chokes. Its one of the most fun bird guns I ever owned.

I patterned a variety of loads with it at a measured 100 feet. The 3" #3 Buck loads surprised me. I'd feel very comfortable defending myself with them in close quarters if I had a shotgun built for CQ work.

Red Circled hits were fired from the right barrel (Modified Choke)
Black Circled Hits were fired from the left barrel (Full Choke)
Range was a measured 100 feet

Across the room or down a hallway, these would be about fist sized groups, if that.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/OldJudgeCreek/gubs/410No3Buckbothbbls2.jpg

[heeler]

After reading all of these posts I have come away with a wee bit more respect for the old 410.
I will be going to the local gun show this weekend and if there is an old non rust bucket 410 in single shot available for a reasonable price( sub $100 or close enough) I think I might just bite.
What the hell.

[Jaymo]

.410 from a shotgun barrel has about the same muzzle energy as .41 Mag.
There's nothing anemic about that.
I bought my wife the Mossberg HS410. She won't shoot my 590 or my 870, but she likes the HS410.
She's a lot better protected with a .410 that she's not afraid to shoot, than she is with a 12 or 20 that she is afraid to shoot.

[Pfletch83]

I still have a soft spot for an ex (the soft spot most likely being my head but at any rate) I've been thinking of having an inexpensive single shot done up to work well with larger sized shot (slugs and '000' buck for the most part) she lives in Southern California and I have problems sleeping at night knowing that she doesn't have anything to really defend herself with out there (shy of a short Ka-bar that I bought for her when we lived together)

Am I an idiot for wanting to help?

[Crowcifier666]

Yes.

[HKGuns]

This right here is my tacti-cool HD shottie. (.410) Armed with this and a bit of indigestion and I'm a room clearing fool!

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v31/p301321537-5.jpg

[Boomie]

idk. I tested a bunch of 12 and 20 gauge slugs to see if they matched up with the published specs and not one brand did. They were usually 200ish fps slow.

So, now that you are using something comparable to pistol velocities, why not use a PCC? .410 would "git 'er done" but a PCC would have similar (or better) penetration, less noise, less recoil and a larger magazine. Probably cheaper to practice with too.

[SHR970]

So, now that you are using something comparable to pistol velocities, why not use a PCC? .410 would "git 'er done" but a PCC would have similar (or better) penetration, less noise, less recoil and a larger magazine. Probably cheaper to practice with too.

In some states many PCC's aren't an option...if they are you have a 10 round limit, bullet buttons, or other wonderful restrictions. My glorious state contains over 12% of the US population so 1 in 8 people have limited options in that department just counting us.

[Mohawk]

Lots of various factors to consider when choosing shotgun calibers for HD.

I had an "Expert" survey my situation and limitations and he custom built me the perfect HD platform for my circumstances.

My situation was
1. I'm old, with medical challenges
2. Because of my blood thinner meds, whenever I shoot 12 ga. my whole shoulder turns Black and Blue and hurts for days afterwards.
3. I've sold the big homestead and moved into a much smaller home in a high density neighborhood
4. The HD platform must be effective for all to use if need be. That includes the 5'0" wife.
5. Must not overpenetrate and kill my neighbors through the walls.
6. Must be light and easy to handle with lots of firepower.
7. Must pattern well at ranges between 10 and 30 feet. This gun pattarns orange sized at 30 feet.
8. Must stop a meth crazed intruder dead in his tracks.
9. must travel well when we go on long trips. We don't do Hiltons because of finances. We do Motel 6s or Best Westerns on the edge of strange towns. The shotgun comes in at night with our luggage.

Here is what he built for me. It's always loaded with Winchester XXX OO Buck, 5 pellets to the 3" load.
Saiga, 410 with 8.5" barrel, Choate folder, 10rd mag, HK foregrip with HK sights. SBS stamp lives with the gun.
We keep the shotgun readily available in hanging brackets by the door , inside the bedroom with no mag in it to keep it safe from the Grandkids when they visit. The full mag is well hidden, a second away.
LOL, someone said that it looked like a Russian Saiga and a German HK got drunk one night and had a baby. I like that :)

I'm not saying that this is the very best option and "better" than a 12ga. But for us, it is the perfect platform that meets all our needs. Others have different needs and will use a different HD weapon. We practice with it often and it is lots of fun to shoot. On family outings, everyone gets in line to shoot the watermellons with it.

[au_prospector]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663363

One just posted on our forums Rem 870 18 inch bbl in 20 GA.
Might work for you. I have heard most Remmys in this config are 12 GA.