[Jim, West PA]

I've heard all kinds of theories on this subject.
Such as...
Now that S&W owns Thompson Center, they are sellin out to the antis by makin the price of T/C BP guns unafordable for the average buyer.
They are makin the prices so high so that the average buyer won't want one therefore he/she won't be owning any 'explosives', as in ,black powder.
Therefore they can curb the ownership and keep better track of the powder.
S&W is just outright greedy.
S&W wants rid alltogether of BP firearms.
S&W wants to be rid completely of all civilian sales and sell strictly to Military and LE contracts.

Now as for the Ruger Old Army.
The theory i hear most is that since a .45LC cylinder can be purchased for that gun and a black powder gun is not an FFL regulated gun that people denied a firearm purchase do to criminal records can buy a ROA and then simply purchase a drop in .45 LC cylinder and now have an unregistered center fire handgun.
Also, law abiding citizens can also do the same thing and have posession of a firearm that does not require registering. Hence, a gun ,'under the radar' for when this country finaly reaches the point of 'feces being violently propelled from the ocilating device'.:rolleyes:

Whatever the reason(s), The price of BP firearms is indeed way out of control.
NOTHING justifies a T/C Hawken flintlock rifle being worth $700-$800 :mad:

What say ye on these matters ?

[hang fire]

One can buy excellent Pietta BP revolvers from Cabela's for a ridiculously low price.

Just my opine, but the Peitta 1858 Remington is the best of the lot, (other's mileage may vary) I find it hard to believe at $200.00 or less, is the price for a revolver of that quality.

I have a Pietta 1858 target model, yeah, I know Remington never made one, but I wanted to see just how accurate the 1858 could be with a set of adjustable sights. At 25 yards with RB and BP, it can more than hold it's own for accuracy with modern top of the line handguns.


Two taped hole were sight adjusting shots.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Target.jpg

[Tim the student]

What? No.

[JohnBT]

"They are makin the prices so high so that the average buyer won't want one therefore he/she won't be owning any 'explosives', as in ,black powder."

Or maybe some folks will skip buying the gun and just stock up on black powder with the savings. Do they make you show your gun to buy black powder where you live?

John

[SlamFire1]

You have lived too long. Money is just not worth what it used to be when you were young.

Live long enough and you will be buying a cup of coffee for $100.00.

I remember those $12.00 Lee Enfields and $89.00 Garands.

[T Bran]

To be honest the only conspiracy is to take $ from your pocket and put it in theirs.
I say this because you can make your own BP if you really want some bad enough to put in the effort.
It does make me wish I'd have stocked up better years ago but as they say hind site is 20/20.
T

[joecil]

You need to set up a group buy, like my group did. We paid on a 25 lb order the following prices which I bought 2 lbs of each. Oh and we could order what every brand or size powder we wanted. I'm sorry I don't know where they got it but will try to find out as they ordered on a Monday and had it on Thursday.

KiK 2f $13.00
Goex 2f $14.50
Schuetzen 2f $15.00
Swiss 2f $22.30

[Carl N. Brown]

A lot of us oldsters sometimes remember old prices, like Mauser 98k for 29.95, and complain. But I remember when I griped about the prices of military surplus when imports resumed after the FOPA, I was reminded that between 1968 and 1986, the inflation in all prices was 360%.

Look over a longer span of years, the $2 allowance I got in 1960 as a kid could buy what $15 would buy in 2010.

[FROGO207]

It's them dang civil war enthusiasts gearing up for reenactment day or the recent popularity of gong shooting with smoke poles that are raising the prices don't ya know.:D

Seriously I don't see the big problem. I see better built firearms for a reasonable price in today's market. Along with the dollar loosing ground with the countries that export said firearms.

[HGUNHNTR]

Yeah dude, firearms companie have a lot to gain by pricing products outside of the reach of their target market. If there is one thing in this world that trumps politics, its profit.

[dev_null]

I'm out of tinfoil, will Reynolds Wrap do? ;->

[JSpear]

^^^^^i had to clean off my comp After that!! Soda everywhere!!

[scythefwd]

The theory i hear most is that since a .45LC cylinder can be purchased for that gun and a black powder gun is not an FFL regulated gun that people denied a firearm purchase do to criminal records can buy a ROA and then simply purchase a drop in .45 LC cylinder and now have an unregistered center fire handgun.

This is wrong. Any gun that has a drop in center fire conversion is considered a firearm and requires a background check as if they were buying a center fire firearm. Encores, Contenders, CVA Optima Elite, CVA APEX... all require background checks even if they are considered BP firearms by most (legally, they are centerfire because the frames can become centerfire without modification).

If you cant afford a TC, look to other brands.. there are plenty that aren't 400 yet.

[Mike OTDP]

It's a crock. The makers set the price it takes to turn a profit. The dollar has lost value thanks to the last 3.5 years. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Euro taking a hit in value...especially if Italy leaves it.

[Hanshi]

Many bp guns are over priced IMHO; but not all. The Lyman GPR costs less than the T/C Hawken and the GPR prices vary as much as $200 depending on where you buy them. Myself, I have three that I bought years ago at cheap to very good prices. Now it seem harder to find a good deal. The last few BP guns I bought were bought directly from a custom builder and weren't all that much more than a comparable Pedersoli (which are well made, by the way).

[oneounceload]

NOTHING is over priced if folks are buying the item. YOU might be "under-funded", or living in the past as regards what regular pricing is, but that's about it. It's the same when folks scream about "gouging" on items they voluntarily bought

[HGUNHNTR]

^^+1 Tru dat^^

[wanderinwalker]

What about them makes them so much less expensive to manufacture than centerfire firearms? They have smaller production runs but the tooling still needs to be changed over. This costs the manufacturers money. The TC and Ruger are American-manufactured firearms, I suspect the companies actually have to pay their employees every payday.

Seriously, it is the price to pay to play. I cannot for the life of me understand why people complain about the cost of items manufactured stateside even when they want to buy American. I bet you would be thrilled if your employer cut your wages just to offer the products you make at a lower price point.

Sorry, I get into the same rant mode when people say "It's only a .22, why so expensive" or "Why pay that much for a bicycle?" (Or anything that is "overpriced" for that matter.)

[mr.trooper]

Conspiracy abounds.

[treg]

So start making them and selling them for $500.

[Davek1977]

quality goods demand quality prices....would you rather pay x amount for somehting safe, reliable, and one can take pride in ownership in....or would you rather 1/2 the budget for dodgy, unsafe, gun that may or may not go boom when you want it to.....or even worse, one that goes boom when you DON'T want it to? I don't buy the conspiracy theories in the slightest. Black power guns have gone up in price.....but.....SO HAS *EVERYTHING* else. Gas, milk, raw materials, you name it....its gone up in price. Why would black powder firearms be the one item to buck the trend of prices climbing upwards?

[MAKster]

In general, mass produced black powder guns are very inexpensive. The only exception seems to be the TC Hawken. You can buy almost identical rifles made by Investarms of Italy under the Cabelas and Lyman brand name for $200-300 less.

[Cosmoline]

There are a lot of factors at play. For starters the Euro went absolutely crazy for a few years there, creating a major leap in imports esp. the higher end ones. This has calmed down a bit thanks to Greece. But the days of cheap production in Italy are probably gone. You can, however, still get used Italian C&B's for very reasonable prices. Pedersoli smoke poles--not so much.

The US makers are mostly custom or semi-custom, and because production levels are so low there's going to be a hike in price. In most cases you are actually buying from *A GUY* or a guy in his family. I believe the true factory US makers are either out of black powder or getting out if. Ruger no longer makes the OA, and TC has been on the skids for years.

Of course, there are cheap alternatives. From India! But I'm not going to open that can o worms right now.

[pat701]

I sure do agree.

[zimmerstutzen]

When I first started in muzzleloading in 1973, I bought a CVA flint pistol kit for $29 dollars. A color Tv set cost $400 dollars. A new import economy car was about $2,000.00. A new american made vehicle was about $500 more. A brand new fancy Bear Target bow cost $120.00. IIRC a barrel of oil went up to $14. One thing that helped CVA was incredible price, a crazy lopsided exchange rate in which the dollar could buy a lot. Spain is no longer the backward place it was.

I still think it is possible to make reasonably priced quality PLAIN muzzle loaders for under $400, maybe even closer to $300. But the problem is whether there are sufficient buyers to justify the tooling expense, insurance, payroll, etc.

[Shultzhaus]

George Washington was able to throw a silver dollar across the river, because back then a dollar went a lot farther.

[junkman_01]

This is wrong. Any gun that has a drop in center fire conversion is considered a firearm and requires a background check as if they were buying a center fire firearm.


This is NOT wrong, it's how it really is. You can buy a C&B revolver with NO background check, and then order a drop in center fire cylinder any day of the week. Put them together and you have an 'under the radar' center fire handgun. Is this a great country or what? :evil:

[brushhippie]

Ive got to say for the convenience of being able to send and receive them through the mail and not having paperwork they are a steal.

[Loyalist Dave]

This is wrong. Any gun that has a drop in center fire conversion is considered a firearm and requires a background check as if they were buying a center fire firearm.

You are either misinformed or simply didn't understand the reference. A reproduction cap-n-ball revolver, such as the Pietta 1858 Remington can be purchased OTC or by mail. No background check. An additional cylinder for that revolver may also be purchased OTC or by mail, that allows the use of .45 Colt cartridges loaded with BP or smokeless "Cowboy" loads, and no background check is needed. These cylinders drop-in, or after a few minutes of filing on the revolver receiver, drop-in. Thus the revolver is converted at home to a center fire handgun.

The simplest form one adds the ammunition to the cylinder, then adds the cylinder to the revolver, but there are other types out there that convert the cap-n-ball revolver to a revolver with a gate to allow reloads with less mechanical manipulation. These, though, require more modification to install. The saving grace of these conversion cylinders (http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/Conversion-Cylinders-c250.htm) is their price generally makes the cost of the combined revolver very close to a factory made "conversion", and the revolver is still single-action and thus are not flooding the streets with cowboy guns as Badguys seem to prefer more modern designs.

Whether or not this conversion is legal in one's state is another matter, but it's not illegal to own either, so long as one is not a convicted fellon. If it is illegal, it's only when the cylinder is added to the revolver frame, in most states. They are available for Colt and Remington repros.

LD

[Busyhands94]

I think Piettas are great in my experience, I got my brass framed Remington on sale for $179 dollars. It has lasted me at least 1500 shots, still tight as a drum even with 30 grains being my standard load. The action is as slick as glass due to brass being a natural bearing surface, it feels just about as good as my S&W. The action is buttery smooth and the trigger pull is excellent! The timing is excellent, the accuracy is phenomenal, and the reliability is so good that I trust it as my home defense revolver.

I think the price is right on this one! Any cheaper and they'd be giving them away! :D

[junkman_01]

The action is as slick as glass due to brass being a natural bearing surface

Every part that moves in a brass framed revolver is moving on steel, not brass. The trigger and bolt are steel. The screws that they move on in the frame are steel. The steel cylinder rotates on a steel pin, and the steel hammer rotates on a steel screw. And, oh yes, the springs are steel too. So just where is brass an advantage? Huh? :banghead:

[CraigC]

They may appear slicker because the steel innards grind away the high spots quicker on a brass frame than steel. ;)

As for the OP, it makes no sense whatsoever.

[scythefwd]

I stand corrected. Why is it that the interchangable barrel systems require the 4473 then when these cap and ball systems dont?

[junkman_01]

Because a C&B revolver is not chambered for a cartridge. A drop in cylinder is only a gun part. Under federal law neither requires tracking.

Shhhhhhhhhhh...don't tell the feds! :cool:

[scythefwd]

junk.. neither is the frame on my cva.. but because there are centerfire barrels, the frame is considered a firearm, regardless if there is a CF barrel with it or not. Wonder if its because the gun was designed with that function in mind.. and ships as a CF rifle from the factory some times where the conversion kits aren't usually produced by the same company (are they) and they require a modification to fit them to the gun? Are there any truely drop in conversions?

[junkman_01]

ships as a CF rifle from the factory some times

I think you answered your own question.

[kBob]

Too Expensive?

Compared to what? That 1858 Remmie repro I just got cost about half what a comperable centerfire Single Action Revolver might cost. If some brand of a single shot rifle cost too much for you, look for something else or look for used locally. I got my first BP rifle not that long ago call it ten years for $20 at a yard sale. Needed some TLC, but I just pretended it was a kit gun that needed everything done to it and did. Most have spent oh all of another $20 on stains sand paper and browning solution and had a ball doing the work.

my last three BP revolvers before this one were all used and cost $75 (plusabout $10 in parts as it was not working when bought), $100 and works darned good and $150 or about sixty bucks less than if new. All three together are less than my last centerfire revolver which was also used( all be it a desirable one).

-kBob

[Captain*kirk]

I completely disagree with the OP....no disrespect intended.
Anyone can buy a $100.00 BP revolver on Gun Broker or the other gun auction sites any week of the year if you're not too picky. A little spit & polish and you have a $200.00 gun. Done it five times already this past year.
I agree with Busyhands; again, no disrespect, Junkman, but all my brassers are smoother and easier action guns than their steel brethren. Maybe less drag by the hammer on the frame? I dunno, but every brasser I own is a sweetheart. I have six at present, sold three others this year but they were just as nice.
Something about brass....:D

[Busyhands94]

all my brassers are smoother and easier action guns than their steel brethren. Maybe less drag by the hammer on the frame? I dunno, but every brasser I own is a sweetheart.
Something about brass....:D

I'm thinking you are right about the frame acting as a bearing surface for the hammer. Brass is a natural bearing surface as I mentioned, I like how smooth my brass framed Pietta is. It's buttery smooth and crisp, I like it a lot.

[wittzo]

If anything, I think centerfire guns are overpriced compared to how inexpensive good BP guns can be made.

The ROA is a good example. It's got more complexity and more machining and it's just as tough as a Blackhawk, but a Blackhawk costs more. They made a lot more Blackhawks than ROA's when the ROA was in full production, but most of the time the Blackhawk sold for $100-$200 more.

[4v50 Gary]

I concur with Slamfire1 in that our money does not command the purchasing power it once did. $350 back in the '70s bought a lot more than it does today. You could buy a HK-91 or an AR for that kind of money back then.

[zimmerstutzen]

Geesh, Mrs. mentioned wanting to see a movie last weekend. Checked the prices, since we hadn't been to a movie theater in ten years. $10.50 a person for the evening shows. And it is not the highest priced theater. Although with the European debt thing, it seems the Italian revolvers have been stable for the past three or four years. By now, the tooling set ups should be paid for.

[unknwn]

It might not be completely in line with the OPs rant, but...
My complaint rests with the skyrocketing prices for ROAs after the replacement parts are no longer produced, and the available supply of said parts dried up completely.
I was most fortunate to have purchased two unfired examples last year, but am somewhat fearfull of a point in time where I would need a repair part.
What does one do? Buy a complete gun to canabalize, and consequently drive the prices up even higher.
Come on Ruger, service your customer base.

[alsask]

Black powder guns are not too expensive at all. The problem is my paycheck is too small!

[CraigC]

Sounds like somebody is falling into Obama's war on the rich and capitalism in general. :rolleyes:

[arcticap]

Sounds like somebody is falling into Obama's war on the rich and capitalism in general.

Actually there was an extension of the 2 percentage point Social Security payroll tax cut that was passed by both the House & Senate and signed by the POTUS back in Feb., 2012.
The result is that everyone continues to receive a larger paycheck through the end of 2012. :)

Payroll tax cut is back

http://www.bankrate.com/financing/taxes/payroll-tax-cut-is-back/

[CraigC]

So???

[arcticap]

So???

So everyone has more money to stash away to buy guns. :D

I didn't bring up the subject, I simply replied to it. ;)

[CraigC]

Doesn't really address the silly sentiments expressed in the OP (like the notion that S&W is "selling out" to the anti's by overpricing their products) but okay. ;)

PS, all that bill really did was change where that 2% came from. It's a feel-good illusion.

[tinman080]

Anyone one complaining about import prices should look at the dollar. Congress's spending excesses have run the dollar into the ground. Any country operating on totally borrowed money effectively RUINS their currency. Welcome to the real world. I don't think Obama plotted to raise the prices of black powder guns, but I could be wrong.....:neener:

[Deltaboy]

I am going to buy some more BP!