I have some doubters about the 1500 FPS 9mm +P+


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intercooler
May 24, 2012, 10:35 PM
I thought it was kind of nuts too that a 115gr GD did that out of a 4" barrel. Has anyone witnessed or heard of one doing that? I posted the YouTube video but had some questions on it. Someone messaged me and thought I read it wrong, maybe it was 1400.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zaAaDlFmFo&feature=plcp


I'm going shooting again tomorrow and was debating putting the camera in a way to capture the XD and the reading if possible.

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murphys_law
May 24, 2012, 10:50 PM
whoah.

intercooler
May 24, 2012, 10:55 PM
I need another good tripod/camera to zoom out and catch everything. Only problem is not being able to close-up the display at the same time. I'm going to try some stuff tomorrow to capture it.

intercooler
May 24, 2012, 11:37 PM
It's in strong 10mm territory I know. If shot out of a 5" barrel using BBTI charts that's 1600 FPS/ 653 LBS. May not hold together but nasty!

Zoogster
May 25, 2012, 12:29 AM
Does it explode if there is a piece of lint in the barrel?

What if you put a drop of oil in there, or fire it in the rain?




With the right powders you can certainly play well into proof load territory on many calibers, it is just foolish to do so as you remove the margin of error that is added for slightly off cartridges, minor powder changes over time, unexpected barrel or firearm conditions, and many other slight variances that occur in real life.


Most likely a contact shot in self defense with such a load for example would result in a bulged or burst barrel or case rupture venting pressure into the firearm and/or out the ejection port.

1911Tuner
May 25, 2012, 06:07 AM
Concur with Zoog's statements. I think that there's way yonder too much emphasis placed on velocity. It leads people to take unnecessary risks in pursuit of the "magic numbers."

As a wise man once noted: (paraphrased)

The pressures required to accelerate a 115-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 4 inches of barrel are more than sufficient to blow your eyes through the back of your head."

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 09:57 AM
Back in the old days, standard factory 115's were loaded closer to 1250-1300 than the now usual 1150 or so so a 115 +P+ at 1500+ seems normal and "proper".

intercooler
May 25, 2012, 10:09 AM
They were rated 1400 and I didn't see any pressure signs. I'm off to shoot some more with a better video. FWIW Kevin said the webbing is very strong on 9mm. Possibly one of the strongest out there.

LeonCarr
May 25, 2012, 10:11 AM
I do not doubt the OP's velocity figures.

115 grain Double Tap 9mm +P is advertised at 1415 fps from a Glock 17. I have chronographed Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ at an average 1372 fps from a Glock 17, beating the factory ballistics for a .357 Sig.

I do wonder why it is necessary for people to want to blow up their guns in the search for that extra 50-100 fps.

Bragging rights? Showing off their mangled/missing hands and arms?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

The Lone Haranguer
May 25, 2012, 12:37 PM
115 grain Double Tap 9mm +P is advertised at 1415 fps from a Glock 17. I have chronographed Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ at an average 1372 fps from a Glock 17, beating the factory ballistics for a .357 Sig.
Those are still a long way from 1500.

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 12:40 PM
Is there any documentation of these rounds causing mangled/missing hands and arms, blowing your eyes through the back of your head, or exploding if there is a piece of lint etc. in the barrel?

I shot around 50,000 essentially proof loads through a forged Hi-Power many years ago and had to replace the firing pin stop once (I dry fired a lot) and the slide developed a hairline crack.. I sold that gun for more than I paid for it retail.. with the crack.

intercooler
May 25, 2012, 01:31 PM
I had a couple hit 1500 again today, so no fluke. Just waiting for the video to upload. I must be a give me hot and I shoot better freak, because I hit center better with these than I did with the 1300 FPS standard 115's from Kevin. They shot excellent and all my fingers, hands, eyes are still intact. Starline brass looked excellent!

intercooler
May 25, 2012, 01:54 PM
Here you go. It rained hard yesterday and was overcast 78 degrees with 80% humidity.

http://youtu.be/R538vH9p5PE

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 02:11 PM
That'd make a fine varmint load.. eyeballs meet back of head indeed.

1911Tuner
May 25, 2012, 03:33 PM
Is there any documentation of these rounds causing mangled/missing hands and arms, blowing your eyes through the back of your head.

Not documented, but I knew of one young lion about 20 years ago who lost a finger and severely damaged his thumb from an overloaded .45 Colt round, and totaled a nice old SAA in the process. The kid's sunglasses saved his eyes.

When you pull the trigger, you're essentially touching off a controlled explosion 18 inches from the end of your nose. Is another 50-100 fps really worth the risk?

I shot around 50,000 essentially proof loads through a forged Hi-Power many years ago and had to replace the firing pin stop once (I dry fired a lot) and the slide developed a hairline crack.

Where was the crack? If it was in the port, adjacent to the breechface...it'll be a ka-blooey event sooner rather than later.

And just in case you missed the point, I'll say it again.

"The pressure required to accelerate a 115-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 4 inches of barrel is more than enough to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.

Doubt it?

http://www.google.com/search?q=pictures%20of%20blown%20up%20revolvers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 04:05 PM
Not documented, but I knew of one young lion about 20 years ago who lost a finger and severely damaged his thumb from an overloaded .45 Colt round, and totaled a nice old SAA in the process. The kid's sunglasses saved his eyes.

When you pull the trigger, you're essentially touching off a controlled explosion 18 inches from the end of your nose. Is another 50-100 fps really worth the risk?

Where was the crack? If it was in the port, adjacent to the breechface...it'll be a ka-blooey event sooner rather than later.

And just in case you missed the point, I'll say it again.

"The pressure required to accelerate a 115-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 4 inches of barrel is more than enough to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.

Doubt it?

http://www.google.com/search?q=pictures%20of%20blown%20up%20revolvers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np
I operate under no assumption that bad things don't/won't happen in the world.
I asked if the chicken littles had documentation of this load causing what was posited/asserted above.
Your link to Google of "pictures of blown up revolvers" is a red herring and not germaine to my query.
Oh, and that Browning cracked above the ejection port, as would be/is expected.

BSA1
May 25, 2012, 06:17 PM
I have personally witnessed three revolver blow ups due to overpressure loads. Revolvers are much safer for the shooter in this type of accident as the pressure is vented upwards carrying parts of the gun with it. Risk to bystanders is very much a factor.

I have also witnessed overloads in semi-auto. In those instances the pressure blew downwards into the magazine cooking off some of the loaded rounds. Results were usually injury to the shooters hand. I would hate to see the result if the slide came off the frame into the shooters face.

I too would like to see a target that could tell the difference of 100 fps. in max loads.

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 06:29 PM
.I too would like to see a target that could tell the difference of 100 fps..
It is generally conceded that 400fps and 45fpe is what it takes to kill a man.

CountryUgly
May 25, 2012, 06:34 PM
I've seen a Judge blow out a cylinder(.410 brown bear shotshell):eek: and had a kel tec 9mm blow the slide off in my hand (the takedown pin broke):uhoh: so ya stuff happens but I think:neener: my 92FS can handle those Gold Dots:neener: so off to the LGS I go:neener:. I got a pesky opossum that's been wrecking havoc for weeks and he's been too quick for me so far but I'm gonna bet he can't outrun these smokin' hot babies:evil:.

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 06:48 PM
Back on track..

1500 is sweet!

1911Tuner
May 25, 2012, 06:56 PM
Your link to Google of "pictures of blown up revolvers" is a red herring and not germaine to my query.

Well, then...do carry on! After all...it was proofed with proof-level ammo.
Right?

I guess those ballisticians who had a hand in setting maximum data in the manuals were Chicken Little types who were way scared.

That "expected crack" above the port...Does it run vertically from the port...about an eighth of an inch forward of the breechface...toward the rail?

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 07:08 PM
Well, then...do carry on!.
Alrighty!

1911Tuner
May 25, 2012, 07:26 PM
Just curious...

Did the slide crack look like either of the ones in this illustration?

Tell me, do.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/StressCracks.jpg

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 07:28 PM
^
Don't pray for me. Don't. I told you the dirt so calm thy freaking self.

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2012, 08:33 PM
Perhaps... I forgot the perhaps part.

1911Tuner
May 31, 2012, 07:49 AM
So...Is that the cracK or not? If it is, you should think about what that crack means. Hint: It's a way bad thing. Eventual kaboom bad...and it came from recoil stress imposed on the slide by your proof-level ammunition. Hope the guy you sold it to spots the crack and understands it.

Don't pray for me. Don't. I told you the dirt so calm thy freaking self.

Oh, I'm fine. I've learned that about all I can do is warn against foolish and/or reckless behavior and hope for the best. Beyond that, about all I can do is get out of the way whenever I hear: "Hold my beer and watch this!"

Nothin' but love, Deaf. ;)

JohnBT
May 31, 2012, 09:48 AM
"I shot around 50,000 essentially proof loads through a forged Hi-Power"

I once got a '65 VW bug up to 100 mph going downhill. I'm smarter now. ;)

Certaindeaf
May 31, 2012, 12:44 PM
I once got a '65 VW bug up to 100 mph going downhill. I'm smarter now. ;)
I busted a couple '68's a few times way back when too. lolz

bds
May 31, 2012, 08:47 PM
Surprised no one brought up 9mm Major loads that pushes 124/125 gr bullets to ~1450 fps (of course these loads are beyond published load data and require careful powder workup - use them at your own risk) - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=131578&view=findpost&p=1482066


DCammo sells commercial 9mm major ammunition for match shooting - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142316

This ammunition will work in STI/Para/Caspian based guns and Glock based open guns as well.

SPECS:
True once fired processed/rollsized same headstamp brass.
124CMJ bullets
Small rifle primers
Loaded to 1.145 OAL

Chrono results:

5in STI based full size open gun
(10 round string) 1410-1464 FPS 176 PF

4.25 STI based shorty open gun
(10 round string) 1367-1423 FPS 172 PFD

EddieNFL
June 1, 2012, 08:20 PM
I operate under no assumption that bad things don't/won't happen in the world.

Me too. And now that I'm older, I try to not (intentionally) increase the odds.

1911Tuner
June 2, 2012, 05:11 AM
Me too. And now that I'm older, I try to not (intentionally) increase the odds.

Roger that.

Over the nearly 50 years that I've been rolling my own ammo, I learned that the caveats pertaining to powder charges issued by the educated folks who write the loading manuals was and is very good advice. When they say not to exceed maximums, they ain't kiddin'.

Some of this came from seeing other people ignore that advice and trash some very nice rifles, pistols, and revolvers...and part of it came from my own destruction of a pair of Ruger Super Blackhawks and a half-dozen Model 29s during my Metallic Silhouette addiction. (Stretched frames and a few bulged chambers.)

Chasing that last 25 fps of velocity is counterproductive, destructive, and completely unnecessary for anything more than establishing bragging rights down at the local gun store on Saturday morning. It amazes the noobs, but among the knowledgeable people...the ones who understand the question...the velocity and energy freaks who chase that last squeek of velocity for its own sake are viewed as idiots, and whenever we happen to run into them on the firing range...we stay well out of their way. On two occasions, I've been glad that I did.

Browns Fan
June 2, 2012, 06:26 PM
This would probably "kaboom" a glock, huh?

Certaindeaf
June 2, 2012, 07:27 PM
.freaks who chase that last squeek of velocity for its own sake are viewed as idiots..
Did you just backhandedly call me a freak and an idiot?

Certaindeaf
June 2, 2012, 07:31 PM
It seems that the tuner needs a tune up.

Jim Watson
June 2, 2012, 08:40 PM
the slide developed a hairline crack.. I sold that gun for more than I paid for it retail.. with the crack.

Amazing.
What was the sucker going to do with a gun that he knew was broken?
He did know, didn't he?


I would be very wary of a minor brand of ammunition with extravagant claims for muzzle velocity that actually exceeded said extravagant claims. What is the next step above +P+?

Certaindeaf
June 2, 2012, 08:46 PM
Amazing.
What was the sucker going to do with a gun that he knew was broken?
He did know, didn't he?.
If you say so.
Who knows?
Yes, he knew.

intercooler
June 2, 2012, 08:46 PM
Man this ammo has everyone running for the hills LOL :what:

bds
June 2, 2012, 08:58 PM
I would be very wary of a minor brand of ammunition with extravagant claims for muzzle velocity
dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

I am currently looking into load developing 9mm major loads for my G22 using 40-9 conversion barrel with thicker chamber/barrel and posted about 9mm major loads to indicate ~1500 fps was attainable with 115 gr bullet, but not as an endorsement of shooting such loads.

Believe me, shooting anything over +P in factory pistols is discouraged. Even for match shooters, it takes a lot of time and careful load development to produce 9mm major loads.

1911Tuner
June 2, 2012, 09:29 PM
Did you just backhandedly call me a freak and an idiot?

No. I was relating my own experience. I stopped speaking to you directly when I asked you if the slide crack was the same as the one shown in the illustration.

Yes, he knew.

Did he understand the significance of that crack? I doubt it, because you don't understand it, nor do you seem to believe it.

Did you tell him that it was normal and nothing to worry about? If you did, and he keeps firing the gun...when he winds up with steel shards in his eyes and the rear half of the slide imbedded in his sinuses...you're culpable.

If you know him, you have a responsibility to go and warn him that he's holding a grenade.

1911Tuner
June 2, 2012, 09:38 PM
dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

Back in the day when the racegunners discovered that they could make major with the .38 Super by overloading it, one of the first things that they also discovered was they were blowing cases at the unsupported area of the barrel ramps in 1911-pattern pistols. That led to the fully ramped barrels that offered full support. They still blew cases occasionally...never being satisfied with enough...but they didn't vent the hot gases and brass shards into the magazine...which can result in sympathetic detonation of some of the rounds stored there. If can get pretty ugly in quick time. I've seen it happen.

Pushing a cartridge far beyond what it and the gun that chambers it was designed for is dangerous and foolish.

Jim Watson
June 2, 2012, 09:48 PM
dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

Ah, but the OP was blasting with Underwood ammunition. What are THEIR qualifications, experience, and caveats?

Rock185
June 2, 2012, 09:51 PM
intercooler, I believe those velocities. I have done quite a bit of chronographing. I don't have an XD, but the XD may have barrel/chamber dimensions that, like Glocks, tend to be fast for the barrel length involved.


I have cronographed a fair amount of 9MM +P and +P+. None of the revolvers, pistols and carbines I used, ever showed signs of unusual wear or damage due to +P or +P+ use. Never had any pierced primers,or other issues with any of the +P or +P+ ammo I tested by Winchester or Federal. Just never happened to acquire any of the LE type Speer +P+ ammo to try,but would not hesitate to use it my guns.


Just a couple examples of velocities and Barrel lengths with +P+:

Federal 9BPLE: 115 +P+; 5" auto - 1468 fps, 16.25" bbl.-1587 fps.

Winchester Ranger: 115+P+; 3.25' revolver-1324 fps, 5" auto- 1437 fps, 16.25' bbl.-1528 fps.

I've been chronographing since 1977, but just when I think I can predict what a particular gun and load should do, I get surprised. For instance, I recently chronographed some 9MM Speer "Lawman" 147 grain TMJ ( non +P ) practice ammo. I figured perhaps 950-1000 fps in a 5" barrel. Wrong again, it chronographed a consistent 1134 fps. Pretty energetic for a 147 practice load I thought.

Just my .02 worth on +P+. That +P+ ammo is sold on hold harmless type contracts with what ever agency desires to purchase it. A fair amount is available on the open market. I have spent most of my adult life in LE. It has been my experience that agencies do not intentionally buy products of questionable reliability or safety. Products that may cause the agency to incur some liability due to damages or injuries to officers or citizens,etc. LE tends to be very cautious about such things. The firearms used in LE, that are be used to fire +P+, are the same as the public owns and uses, not some super strong special guns made of unobtanium, etc. Apparently there are enough law enforcement agencies that see enough advantage in +P+ ammo to purchase in sufficient quantities to cause the major manufacturers to continue to produce it. So use it or don't, but I don't worry about using any American manufacturer's +P or +P+ ammo in any quality, properly maintained gun... ymmv

Walkalong
June 2, 2012, 10:03 PM
It just doesn't make sense to push ones luck with pressure in a handgun in front of your face. They make bigger guns for when one needs more power.

90% of my loads are under max. I like it that way.

You keep over stressing steel and it will let loose one day. Simple as that.

Proof loads are to make sure a barrel/action can handle thousands of normal pressure loads without coming apart, not thousands of proof loads.

Keep playing with fire and you get burned sooner or later. :)

Quat
June 3, 2012, 12:35 AM
That was a reason a lot of guides used to, and still do frequently, prefer lower pressure rounds. Lot less likely to stick and cause a malfunction feeding.

Maybe the pistol can take it fine for thousands of rounds, but maybe the case will be the 1 in 1,000 that ruptures or expands too much and you wind up with a single shot when you really need the follow up.

1911Tuner
June 3, 2012, 07:06 AM
It just doesn't make sense to push ones luck with pressure in a handgun in front of your face. They make bigger guns for when one needs more power.

This.

The trend of attempting to turn the 9mmP into a .357 Magnum traces back to Marshal and Sanow's little book that's been shown to be flawed at its core. The 9mm isn't a .357 Magnum and it never will be. It doesn't have the case capacity to safely do it. That it can be pushed to those levels doesn't change that reality. The pistols are proofed for 9mm levels...not .357 Magnum.

If .357 performance is desired in an autopistol, there are much better choices. The .357 Sig and the 9X23 are two examples.

Finally...in case it hasn't been clear...THR is liable for any information...bad or good...that is allowed to stand. If illegal, dangerous, or irresponsible advice is given without rebuttal, and somebody else follows it and is hurt because of it...the board can be sued into oblivion. We have to issue the warning and discourage such things. To do less is to be derelict in our duties to the forum owners and to the community.

In truth, I probably should have deleted the "50,000 rounds of proof level" post with all due haste, because sooner or later some poor inexperienced handloader will stumble onto it and load up hot...possible blinding or disfiguring himself as a result. At least the rebuttal is in place, so he will have no one to blame but himself and the man who told him that it'd be okay.

Certain Deaf...I sincerely hope that the guy who bought your pistol discovers what that crack means before he hurts himself.

Pilot
June 3, 2012, 07:47 AM
I've been reloading for years. Mostly 9MM, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, and .38 Spl. Most of my loads have been mid-range in velocity. I like it that way. Many have been lighter loads to see how much accuracy I can squeeze out of my different pistols. The accuracy is the fun part for me, not the power, recoil or louder bang.

I carry factory rounds, so it is not a "defense" issue. I also think pushing the limits, and stuffing more powder in a round that is recommended is irresponsible, especially for the people next to you at the range who have no ideas.

intercooler
June 3, 2012, 08:09 AM
Poor DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo. Making those dirty little Widow makers.

1911Tuner
June 3, 2012, 08:51 AM
Poor DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo. Making those dirty little Widow makers.

First...Commercial ammunition manufacturers have access to pressure testing equipment that takes the guesswork out of it. Handloaders don't. They also have access to non canister-grade powders that can be blended and tailored to produce the desired results.
Handloaders don't.

That makes exceeding the listed data a crapshoot, because the handloader doesn't know what he's dealing with.

He goes by unreliable indications like primer appearance and sticking cases which can only suggest that he's approaching safe and sane limits. Sometimes, a half-grain of powder or less can make a difference in whether the gun stays together or comes unwrapped. These indications are unreliable because there are too many variables in the components...even within the same lots of powders, primers, and bullets.

As the man said: "I only know what I can measure. All else is guesswork."

Again, I speak from experience and what I've seen happen. When you're touching off what is essentially a controlled explosion 18 inches from the end of your nose, it's wise and prudent to err on the side of caution. A man who is well-educated in the matters of internal ballistics once told me that if people really understood what sort of destructive forces that they were unleashing, most of'em would never pull another trigger on anything higher than .22 rimfire.

Old loading manuals were known for some pretty fanciful data because back in the day, all they had was the copper crusher method for measuring pressure. When more modern methods were developed, they were shocked to discover the truth...and the data has been altered. Not because they're liability conscious...but because they discovered that peak pressure only tells part of the story, and not the most important part at that.

Finally, those firms that you mentioned don't market proof-level ammunition...and that's essentially what this evolving flame war is about...not SAAMI standard +P or +P+ ammunition. Proof-level is intended to be used once...once...to prove the gun...not every time that the trigger is pulled.

Robert
June 3, 2012, 11:06 AM
I don't doubt you can do it. I do have grave doubts about how smart it is. But it is your life so carry on. Folks have tried to warn and help you but you seem little concerned for your own safety. So by all mean keep pushing well beyond the max. But don't come crying to us when it does blow up, and it will sooner or later, and you mangle your hand or worse. We are all adults and as such may take stupid risks if we so desire. But do not try to convince me it is a perfectly safe thing that anyone else should be doing. God forbid a new reloader see this and think "bet I can do that."

1911Tuner
June 3, 2012, 11:53 AM
God forbid a new reloader see this and think "bet I can do that."

Which is exactly why I got involved with the thread.

MachIVshooter
June 3, 2012, 11:53 AM
Too hot.

Sure, you can push a 9mm to those levels-for awhile. You can also juice a Honda 1.6l and make 600 HP. But unlike the 600 HP LSX V8, that little 4 banger is gonna disassemble itself violently from the stress it was not designed to handle. It might take a little while, but it will happen. Same thing with hot rodding guns.

If I want 550-600 FPE in a hi cap autoloader, I'll do it with very moderate 10mm loads, not a 9x19 that (I'm pretty sure) is running well over the 35k PSI max.

That said, if you guys wanna hammer your guns and risk your body parts, go right ahead.

intercooler
June 3, 2012, 01:22 PM
I didn't buy this one box of ammo to shoot 1500+. It was rated 1400 and so I gave it a whirl to see how close it was (is 1400 safe?). Maybe someone else gets 1400? The box is long gone, the 9mm is my Fiance's and won't ever see a box of +P+ again. It was still a hoot to shoot ONCE.

Certaindeaf
June 3, 2012, 03:13 PM
.Certain Deaf...I sincerely hope that the guy who bought your pistol discovers what that crack means before he hurts himself.
I understand. Hand wringing is not against the law so knock yourself right out. As said before, the buyer did know and was much my senior for whatever that's worth to you. This was right around thirty years ago. The pistol served me quite well.

Walkalong
June 3, 2012, 09:37 PM
It is irresponsible to run machinery beyond its limits for a long time, and then sell it to someone who may know it has what looks like minimal damage, but not how it got there, or what it means.

Guns, cars, you name it.

rswartsell
June 3, 2012, 09:52 PM
Uhh.. so then, It's cool to run high pressure ammo if it's someone else's gun or at least you then sell it off.

Guys, what do you run in YOUR guns or your KEEPERS?

1911Tuner
June 4, 2012, 06:57 AM
Over the years, I've seen some pretty silly behavior in the pursuit of velocity. From people complaining to the ammunition manufacturers because their .357 125 JHP "only" produced 1400 fps instead of the magical 1450 as advertised...and they arrived at those numbers by testing it over a 90-dollar Shooting Chrony. *cough*

They've complained or even returned revolvers because the velocities advertised by the ammo companies were 75 or 80 fps lower than expected.

I've known handloaders to do some even sillier things...determined to achieve higher and higher velocities...and often damaging expensive handguns in the bargain, and then angrily demanding replacement under warranty.

I have to ask: "Why?" To what end? Above a certain level, more velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory. There is precious little terminal effect to be gained over an additional 50-100 fps. If we assume that the .357/125 and other cartridge/gun combos...like the 9mm/115 have a self-defense niche, and that the average SD shooting takes place at less than 25 yards...with the preponderance occurring at 10-20 feet...How flat does the trajectory need to be?

There is also the matter of the bullet's construction itself. Expanding bullets are designed for optimum performance within a fairly narrow velocity window. Too low, and they don't expand reliably. Too high, and they expand so violently that they may not penetrate to the vitals...or actually blow up in the first 3-4 inches. It's counterproductive. There's a reason that the .357/110 grain JHP isn't loaded to screaming velocities by the commercial manufacturers.

I can understand the need for a flatter trajectory and more downrange energy/momentum for hunting purposes when the ranges can exceed 75 yards...but for close-range self defense? Please.

Boge
June 7, 2012, 06:50 AM
I've shot some of the Underwood 9mm 124 gr. +p+ using the Gold Dot bullet. VERY accurate and same recoil impulse as with the factory Speer 124 gr. +p.


I understand some people's concern about this. However, many state & Federal agencies used +p+ for years. The Secret Service even issued the Speer 115 gr. +p+ Gold Dot for awhile and I never heard of any gun blowing up.

Remember, a jet is stressed very much every time it goes to altitude and we don't hear of them raining out of the skies every day. A former Capt. in the IL State Police during the time they issued the Federal BPLE & Win. Ranger +p+ said one of the officers there shot over 50,000 + rds. of 9mm +p+ though his 3rd Gen. S&W and it was still running the last he knew.

I've seen a photo of the Underwood 124 gr. +p+ dismantled & the charge weighed 6.6 gr. No idea what powder. Maybe a special blend from a mill. :confused:

Besides, these are MODERN guns 1911Tuner, not flintlocks like a 1911!! :neener: ;)

intercooler
June 7, 2012, 04:14 PM
I don't know anything about 9mm powder charge but is 6.6 gr's very much? I have seen claims of 1350 FPS for those but no video. Where is that picture located?

1911Tuner
June 7, 2012, 05:11 PM
Boge...Do straw man a lot, or just this one?

If you'll go back and read what I've written, you'll see that I haven't been overly concerned with +P or even +P+ ammunition, even thought that does exceed the pressures and forces that the SAAMI established for the cartridge and for the guns that the manufacturers proof them for..

My concerns centered around Certaindeaf's "50,000 rounds of proof-level" ammunition...which I have my doubts about, but that's neither here nor there.

My concerns were...and remain...with handloading ammunition ever hotter in the search for turning the cartridge into something that it's not, and was never meant to be. i.e trying to equal .357 Magnum performance with a 9mm Parabellum or trying to equal .44 Magnum performance with the .45 Colt without firing it in a gun that is specifically designed to withstand the pressures and forces generated by that class of ammunition.

And my point and my questions were...and are..."To what end? What do you hope to accomplish by striving for ever higher velocities? What advantage is gained with an additional 50 fps...with a gun and caliber that by definition will likely be used at 10-20 feet?" Shot to shot velocities within the same lot can vary 40 fps.

Will that magically turn a marginal cartridge into the Hammer of Thor?

So, it raises a final question. "What is the point, other than to be able to say that it was done?"

Another unknown is the accuracy of the chronograph itself. I've learned that chronographs are notorious liars, and will show a different velocity on Monday than the one it showed on Saturday...sometimes dramatically different.

So it comes back to my earlier observations.

To wit:

"The pressures required to accelerate a 115-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 4 inches of rifled barrel are more than sufficient to blow your eyes through the back of your head."

What is the point?

1911Tuner
June 7, 2012, 08:25 PM
Hand wringing is not against the law so knock yourself right out.

Oh, I'm not the hand-wringin' type, Deaf. I've done foolish things with handloads my ownself. I learned the error of my ways before I did any serious damage. Mostly I'm hopin' that I can keep some young newcomer to the "Roll Your Own" fraternity from following your lead.

Certaindeaf
June 7, 2012, 08:31 PM
Well heck!

Boge
June 7, 2012, 08:49 PM
1911Tuner, you of all people should know that there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major. This is nothing new. Sure, on a 1911 it beats the frame to death just as it would if I put a hemi in a 1911 Stutz Bearcat. I have seen several people blow up guns but it was almost always due to faulty reloads, i.e., someone not paying attention while reloading and not max loads.


People have a choice here. No one is putting a gun to their head to force them to buy Underwood Ammo. If it blows that's what lawyers and liability insurance is for. In your opinion you think it is foolish and that's OK. However, one still has the right to be foolish in the USA. ;)

rswartsell
June 7, 2012, 09:01 PM
"No one is putting a gun to their head to force them to buy Underwood Ammo. If it blows that's what lawyers and liability insurance is for."

And prosthesis, and glass eyes, and life insurance too Boge. I'm a little surprised, are you the Boge from Gunblast?

I'm not specifically cutting the knees of Underwood, I have no experience to base an opinion on. Simply the reckless quest for ultra high velocity.

1911Tuner
June 7, 2012, 09:08 PM
1911Tuner, you of all people should know that there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major.

I do, and I've seen'em break guns. The overloaded .38 Super was instgrumental in ushering in the ramped barrels because they were blowing case heads while-u-wait. None of those loads are proof-level, though...and ONE MORE TIME...that was why I got involved here.

A few years back, a guy had spent megabucks for an Ed Brown pistol. He was having a few issues with it, and he called Ed on the phone. The question of ammo came up, as usual. Told Ed that it was 200-grain Hornady XTPs loaded to 950 fps.

Ed's response:

"Whoa, man! You're gonna break my gun!"

That's a true story.

Also one more time...

Whenever I or any of the other mods see a post that advises or advocates illegal actions or irresponsible handloading data...we have to refute it. If we let it stand, and somebody runs in the ditch, the forum can be held liable. Many times we simply delete it. That's probably what I should have done, but since no actual data was given for the claimed proof level ammunition...I pointed out the folly of over stressing the guns and stated my reasons.

Certaindeaf
June 7, 2012, 10:47 PM
You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.

Lost Sheep
June 7, 2012, 11:02 PM
You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.
Certaindeaf, pardon me for jumping in here, but I feel compelled to comment.

Your comment seems to me to be uncalled for.

What I have read in 1911Tuner's posts is; If an experienced handloader wants to push the limits of brass, steel and lead, that is his choice. If a novice reads of those practices and tries to do the same without the background experience, tragic results could follow.

1911Tuner is moderating (in the sense that a neutron moderator slows a nuclear reaction). That is one of his duties.

Certainly, 1911Tuner's last post is not deserving of snark.

Thank you for reading.

Lost Sheep

Coal Dragger
June 8, 2012, 12:00 AM
Lessons learned in this thread:

1.) Stressing brass and guns to pressures beyond intended design limits on a regular intentional basis is stupid.

2.) Some shooters/reloaders feel that lesson #1 doesn't apply to them, and should be avoided at the range.

3.) Never buy a gun from Certaindeaf, it has most likely been abused.

ljnowell
June 8, 2012, 12:21 AM
You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.
That post sure says a lot about your character. This website is ran on polite conversation, manners, and good ethics. I dont think I have seen you bring any of those three to this thread. Disappointing.

ArchAngelCD
June 8, 2012, 03:01 AM
You could always write your congressman or cry into your pillow.
Not very High Road IMO and not called for. If I were a Mod you would be taking a time out for a few days at least.

1911Tuner
June 8, 2012, 06:22 AM
I noticed that Certaindeaf gives contradictory advice on this in a cast rifle bullet reloading question. Very good advice, I might add. I can't figure why he feels that a bolt-action rifle...which is far more capable of absorbing excessive pressure and the stresses caused by it...but the cautions can be ignored with a Browning High Power, which is a fine pistol, but it's not an exceptionally strong pistol.

Here is the post in its entirety.

If you do it right, you can drive a GC'd lead slug to around 2800 and paper patched to around 3300 accurately. I think you'd certainly blow a .308 up trying to drive a 200+gr slug to those velocities so of course you'd have to use a lighter bullet to achieve those speeds.

So, it's apparent that he understands the issue and the risks involved. I'm starting to think that he just likes to argue.

bikerdoc
June 8, 2012, 07:07 AM
Rule #4 from the THR Code of Conduct


4. Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Is Tuner the only one aware of this?

Hangingrock
June 8, 2012, 08:58 AM
This topic makes me think of Elmer Keith’s experimentation resulting in fracturing single action Colts in his quest for enhanced performance. I wonder how many top strap re-welds were done before moving on to Smith&Wesson revolvers of the period.

Then we have the Speer Number (?) 8 (?) manual with its energetic loads of SR4756 that some swear by and others swear at.

I do recall when S&W introduced the M640 With serial number prefix CEN**** in the frame window for the cylinder “TESTED FOR +P+” wording was inscribed. Follow on production this inscription was deleted because there was no standard for +P+.

With out pressure firearms would not function thus pressure is not a bad thing but we can have too much of a good thing which Elmer Keith and lesser known individuals have found out .

1911Tuner
June 8, 2012, 09:19 AM
With out pressure firearms would not function thus pressure is not a bad thing but we can have too much of a good thing which Elmer Keith and lesser known individuals have found out .

True that, but as I've tried to point out for years...and this is the part that so many struggle to understand...pressure isn't the only concern. It may not even be the main concern. The recoil forces and the tensile stresses are what ultimately ruins guns in most instances. Of course, there's the occasional double or triple charge that that actually blow the chamber...but these are fairly rare compared to the other one.

I saw a double charge of Bullseye fired in a 1911...after the fact...in which the gun stayed together, but cracked the slide on both sides of the port. The slide was ruined. The shooter got lucky. He didn't ignore the gases and powder particles that stung his face, and investigated...noticed the cracks...and stopped firing. He brought the gun straight to me from the range. If he'd have pulled the trigger again...well...he got lucky.

When a top strap stretches...or worst case scenario...fractures, the gun literally "opens up" and lets the case back out of the chamber and lose head support. If it's a matter of excessive headspace, the blow isn't normally catastrophic except with pressures over 45,000 psi. If the topstrap or the slide actually gives way suddenly, it can get pretty ugly in quick time.

Tensile stresses are cumulative in their effect. Not only in the amount of stretching that the top strap or the slide incur...but in work-hardening and loss of tensile strength and the resulting lowered yield point of the steel. You may get away with it for a thousand rounds, and have the gun come unwrapped at number 1001. Sometimes the warnings are subtle. Sometimes they're not. The cracked slide on the subject Browning High Power was a clear warning that things were fixin' to go to hell in a handbasket. With a revolver, the warning is excessive endshake. The frame has stretched, and the headspace is compromised. Don't ignore these things. You can't regrow eyes and fingers.

Prosser
June 8, 2012, 06:55 PM
In defense of the high velocity desire:

S&M pushed that stuff for a long time. Isn't the 125 at 1400 fps the ultimate man stopper, better then a .308 rifle? :banghead:

The concept that the last 20% in velocity is achieved at a cost of excessive
recoil and excessive wear on a pistol is certainly a VERY valid position.

My last batches of ammunition were loaded on the bottom of the reloading scale for calibers. Problem is the bottom end of the scale is not always the best for consistent velocity, which means accuracy suffers.

Finding a load that is consistent in velocity and ignition usually requries a full, or near full case, which also stops you from double charging. It also leaves out most of the faster powders. Quick spikes to high pressure are not particularly good for firearms, either. The faster the powder, the closer it is to a true explosion. That can't be good for metal, over a long repeated period of time.

My brief list of experiences with maximum loads:
Detonics Mark VI and VII
These guns, with extra strong springs, shot .451 Detonics level loads, 200 grains @ 1200 fps, every other day, for two hours, for 5 years, and that's conservative, no damage.

230 grain hardball out of a Linebaugh 6 shot Seville, full case of H110, 45 Colt. The Linebaugh was so overbuilt that with that slow a powder excessive pressure was not an issue. If you upped the bullet weight, then
you could create excessive pressure, but not with light bullets.

Sig Sauer P 226:

I couldn't get the gun to cycle with 115 grain bullets, and over maximum charges. I had to move to 130 grain bullets and maximum, or over maximum charges to get the gun to cycle. This was in the 80's, so I might have the number wrong on the Sig Sauer.

I wonder if the new Sigs are as strongly built, with such stiff springs?

Depending on the gun, and how tight the chamber is cut, SOME guns might be safe for such long term use of such heavy loads.

What I did find was a bit of .45 ACP brass was stretched beyond recovery by being shot in guns with sloppy chambers(at my range that was LEO who used Glocks). I'm sure the same is true with 9mm.

Finally a 240 grain HP in .44 Special in a Charter Arms bulldog. Loads in the low .44 Magnum range: slightly under 1200 fps.

Gun shot loose and froze. Too much for the little bulldog.

It's hard to say that the ballistics in 9mm are truly excessive when the .357 Sig, in the right gun, loads to such pressures.

The problem is finding the right gun.

While all I can do is guess at this point, I do wonder if the Sig Sauer P226 X Six or five can stand up to this kind of pressure for a long period of time?

The problem with light bullets at such velocities is they require a fast burning powder in a normal length barrel, or a slower burning powder in a long barrel.

I don't see much point in going past 32k psi CUP in automatics, or 50K in a revolver, and it has to be the right revolver.

Still, the Magnum Research autos in .357 and .44 Magnum work.
So did Lee Jurras' autos in heavy calibers.
Tight chambers, strong brass, and proper design and it can be done.

Don't the submachine loads go near this kind of pressure, but with heavier bullets.

EddieNFL
June 8, 2012, 08:33 PM
...there are tons of IPSC shooters who load the 9mm & .38 Super to the nth degree to make Major. This is nothing new.

Stupid has been around a while, too.

1911Tuner
June 8, 2012, 09:04 PM
Prosser...Velocity is a good thing. Trying to push a gun beyond its design limits in pursuit of the nth degree of velocity is dangerous and destructive for relatively little gain. At the very least, it's hard on the gun. Carrying a cylinder or magazine full strictly for business is one thing. Every time the trigger is pulled is quite another matter.

The commercial manufacturers of uber-hot ammunition have the advantage of knowing exactly what pressures and pressure curves they're dealing with. They also blend powders to get the desired results within sane limits. Handloaders don't. If commercial loaders don't actually have the equipment on hand, they send it to a laboratory for testing. They're not going to package and sell a lawsuit in a box. Bet on it.

As the man said: "I only know what I can measure."

Back during my metallic silhouette addiction, I stretched the frames of two Super Blackhawks and a half-dozen Model 29s in my pursuit of ever-higher velocities...for the purposes of a clean knockdown on those pesky rams, and for a flatter trajectory...so I didn't have to move the rear sights so much when I changed stations. One of the Blackhawks was stretched so badly that Ruger couldn't repair it, and they cautioned me to "take it easy" on the other one. I stopped short of completely ruining the Smiths.

MCgunner
June 8, 2012, 09:18 PM
To each his own. That's way too hot for MY 9s and one of 'em is a Ruger P85. I'll stick with +P stuff max. It pushes a 115 JHP XTP at 1340 from the Ruger, 1263 from my Kel Tec. I don't know if I could cram any more Unique into the case, either, 6.4 grains and a compressed load. It's the max load in the Speer no. 11 manual. That load is laying down 410 ft lbs from the little Kel Tec, which to me is pretty impressive compared to a 125 grain .357 magnum load making no more from a 2" snubby and gettin' enough muzzle blast to get a sunburn off of.

Normally, I shoot a standard pressure load with Bullseye as a propellent. More pleasant, easier on the guns, and I can actually find my brass afterwards. :D The hot stuff gets shot very little and mostly in the Ruger to use it up as the KT is "limited use" +P. I've fired enough in the gun to test it, a few to kill hogs in the trap, that's it.

If I need more gun, I'll move up to my longer barreled .357s shooting heavies or my .45 Colt Ruger blackhawk, or one of my TC Contender barrels.

orionengnr
June 8, 2012, 10:00 PM
No one is putting a gun to their head to force them to buy Underwood Ammo. If it blows that's what lawyers and liability insurance is for.
The latter sentence is one that concerns me greatly. It speaks volumes about your mentality and value system, and (IMHO) casts the credibility of any of your future posts in a very dim light...

Prosser
June 8, 2012, 10:21 PM
"Prosser...Velocity is a good thing. Trying to push a gun beyond its design limits in pursuit of the nth degree of velocity is dangerous and destructive for relatively little gain. At the very least, it's hard on the gun. Carrying a cylinder or magazine full strictly for business is one thing. Every time the trigger is pulled is quite another matter. "

I guess that was the point of my post. There ARE guns that might be able to, or actually require, such hot ammo. I used my reloading issues with the old Sig 9mm in the 80's as an example. Machine guns are another example.

Loading hot stuff in a .45 Colt Ruger is considerably different if it's put in a .454 FA 83 or BFR?

I did ask if any modern guns are designed to function with such ammo?

Prosser
June 8, 2012, 10:29 PM
DTap

MCgunner
June 8, 2012, 10:31 PM
My main use for 9mm is pocket carry concealment. I down own a sub gun. Not too many pocket 9s are rated for more than +P, the Rohrbaugh not even THAT. That's okay, I have confidence in what I carry.

Now, if I need to carry a big gun to handle heavy handloads, I can get an X frame Smith and Wesson in .500 S&W Magnum. Why would I wanna blow up my Ruger 9mm trying to load it for bear?

Reminds me of an old saying, if you want a .357, buy one. Don't try to make one out of your .38.

Hangingrock
June 8, 2012, 11:06 PM
I really don’t see +P+ ammunition being problematic as long as end users are knowledgeable and willing to accept service life consequences to meet performance criteria.

GRIZ22
June 9, 2012, 12:58 AM
Zoogster, thanks for being the first to inject common sense in this thread.

My idea of a +P+ 9mm is called a 357 SIG.

ArchAngelCD
June 9, 2012, 01:18 AM
I fail to see why anyone would need to use +P+ 9mm ammo. If normal 9mm ammo can't do the job you want done you can always buy and shoot a 40 S&W.

SAAMI sets limits for a good reason, to protect the shooter and their guns. Why shoot something that's beyond the SAAMI pressure limits when there are other safer options?

YankeeFlyr
June 9, 2012, 02:30 AM
I'm with the attitude/tone of 1911Tuner all the way. 100%.

Look, if Certaindeaf wants to blow himself up, that's his choice. But he transferred the piece to someone else who may well know NOTHING about the progressive effects of stress concentrations resulting from small-radius tensile loadings, and so he put his philosophy onto someone else, it seems.

He's not gonna change his mind, so anything else is wasted breath. :banghead:

1911Tuner
June 9, 2012, 06:02 AM
transferred the piece to someone else who may well know NOTHING about the progressive effects of stress concentrations resulting from small-radius tensile loadings,

This. Whenever a slide stretches anywhere between the breechface and the first lug wall, it's the same thing as a stretched top strap on a revolver. It's a big red flag telling you to put on the brakes. If either one fractures, the game is over. Hang the revolver on the wall or replace the slide.


As for +P and +P+...I'm not adverse to it in limited quantities. The guns are proofed at 25% above SAAMI standard pressures and the stresses that it generates. They'll stand up to it, but understand that any time those stresses are ramped up, the effects on the gun are detrimental and cumulative over the long run, and its service life is shortened. There's no way around that. Fire 100,000 rounds of .38 target wadcutter through a Model 19 and it'll be almost as good as new. Start using 15 grains of 2400 behind a 160-grain cast SWC...nearly the equivalent to the original .357 loading...and it'll loosen up pretty quickly. Use the same load in a Model 27 or 28...the size revolver that the cartridge was developed for...and it'll do much better.

There were some very good reasons that Smith & Wesson advised: ".38s for practice and .357s for business" in their K-frames. Many shooters ignored it, and they shot their Model 19s apart in short order. Smith threw in the towel and introduced the L-frames for the high velocity crowd, and...you guessed it...the handloaders started jacking up the pressures, and the L-frames started getting battered. I have a 681 here that had been fired almost exclusively for years with my home cast 160-grain SWCs and 14.5 grains of 2400...long accepted as a fine .357 load...and it is. It's also pretty rambunctious. Not at the level of the original ZOMG! .357 offering, but still plenty thumpy.

The gun also developed a little endshake about 5,000 rounds into it. Not excessive, but enough to let me know that I needed to step back...so I cut the charge a full grain, and the endshake hasn't progressed. Velocities are still a bit higher (at around 1300 fps) than today's average commercial ammo produces...and the damage stopped. Even so, the revolver is semi-retired, and I rarely shoot it any more.

Jim Watson
June 9, 2012, 07:45 AM
Tuner (anybody) do you have the American Rifleman of the 1960s when the feds commissioned H.P. White Laboratories to "test" handguns for "safety?"

As I recall, they got two samples of each major make and model and shot them for durability, one with standard loads and a proof round every thousand, the other with a steady diet of proof loads. None of the ones shot with all proof loads lasted very long and a lot of the others showed wear and tear in advance of what you might expect.


Of course the real purpose was looking for a route to repressive gun control under the guise of "safety." It didn't work because the results were inconsistent, some of the name brands folded up, some of the cheap guns lasted.

1911Tuner
June 9, 2012, 08:03 AM
Jim, I (vaguely) remember the article, but I don't know of anybody who would have a copy.

I also seem to remember a destruction test in which...somebody...established a maximum charge of 2400 with 240-grain jacketed bullets in a Model 29, then bumped up the powder charge by one grain...and proceeded to rattle the gun apart within a couple thousand rounds. Headspace went from .005 inch to .010 inch. In another Model 29, they stuck with the established maximum for that gun, and it took 5,000 rounds to get there. In a third...firing only commercially loaded ammunition...it still had good headspace after 10,000 rounds. IIRC, the commercial ammunition was Remington 240 JSP. The real surprise was there was relatively little difference in chronographed velocities between the 1-grain overload and the safe maximum. Seems like it was about 50-60 fps.

If I concentrate, more of the details will come to me.

Hangingrock
June 9, 2012, 01:15 PM
When one alludes to the S&W K frame revolver demise the 125gr 357Mag loading was the beginning of the end. As law enforcement standardized on that particular loading durability issues became apparent. Training practices changed also from 38Spl usage to training with the service carry load.

The general issues of +P and +P+ in my opinion is driven by law enforcement agency requirements.

Now you do have the steel pig, goat and chicken society and the power factor sports shooters that value performance over weapon service life in order to be competitive in their game of choice.

In the end a weapon is nothing more than a tool. How the tool is used translates into service life and maintenance issues.

Prosser
June 10, 2012, 01:58 AM
Just occured to me my old Mac 11 ate ANYTHING. My hottest loads? no problem. That very heavy bolt couldn't really tell what the minimal differences in recoil in 9mm were doing to it.

1911Tuner
June 10, 2012, 05:56 AM
Straight blowback is a little different, Prosser. The breech opening is delayed by bolt mass. It's a solid bolt...not a slide.

Barrel and breech aren't mechanically locked. There's nothing to stretch. The chamber walls are heavy in the M-10/M-11 pistols, so they can handle a lot of chamber pressure...more than is generated by any pistol cartridge that they're chambered for.

Those tensile stresses are high, and they're very real. That's the one aspect that so many have a problem understanding, but it's the big reason that slides aren't made of aluminum and the reason that the early Smith "Airweight" models would stretch with as few as 50-60 rounds of the old 110-grain +P+ "Treasury" loads.

I keep getting the feeling that a few people have the idea that the limits set by the SAAMI are merely suggestions, and that the people who set them are a pack of scared, hand-wringing wimps who don't understand anything about ballistics or yield properties of ordnance steels...but they do.

The caveats are posted. Do as you think best.

Prosser
June 12, 2012, 05:48 AM
I'm with you 100% on your position of reloading to sane levels.

I'm being very specific in saying that CERTAIN firearms can handle very high pressure 9mm rounds. Most of those are machine guns, or semi-auto versions of machine guns.

That said, I would be VERY careful in putting such high pressure loads in any gun not designed, or design capable of taking such loads.

Given a choice I would rather have a heavier for caliber bullet then a light for caliber 9mm. My choice is the 147 grain HST, mainly because I got a great deal on them. Second is 147 grain flat points.

My 9mm is rated for plus P 9mm, but, it's barrel is so short, I think I'm better off with heavier for caliber bullets, creating more pressure, and better velocity out of the short barrel.

IF I wanted a 115 grain bullet in 9mm, at that velocity, it would be a flat point. I would allow the velocity to create the wound channel, and the flat point to penetrate straight and deep. A 115 grain HP is a penetration failure waiting to happen.

nelson133
June 12, 2012, 09:23 AM
Having gotten older, I no longer have the need to prove my manhood with the power of my reloads. Lighter loads are just fine for practice.
My social use 9mms are loaded with Federal 9BPLE, I have shot just enough in each gun to make sure it functions and no more. As far as the concern about the non-performance of a 115 grain hollow point, I have seen the ballistic gelatin tests and the street reports on this bullet and have no fears.
I have also seen many reports on the lack of performance of any non-expanding 9mm bullet. The reason the Illinois State Police went to the federal load was the failures to stop with the solids. I you chose to carry solids, I hope I'm not standing behind whatever you are shooting at.

Armed012002
June 13, 2012, 01:41 AM
I sure don't want to be standing next to someone when their gun blows up.

I know, because I still have the memories of a fellow blowing up his Smith & Wesson 629. A small piece of his revolver actually hit my glasses. If I didn't have glasses on, there's a good chance I would have damage to my right eye. The owner of the 629 had minor cuts and burns on one of his hands.

Do think of those around you when you reload. Especially when you're pushing the limits.

1911Tuner
June 13, 2012, 06:33 AM
Do think of those around you when you reload. Especially when you're pushing the limits.

That's the catch. Handloaders don't have more than a general idea that they're approaching or exceeding the limits, and sometimes that line is crossed with maximum published data. Guns vary. What is completely safe in one may be pushing your luck in another, outwardly identical gun, or a different gun in the same caliber. I had a 4-inch Python years ago that would stick cases hard with certain listed safe loads, and the chambers were fine. When the same load was fired in a 4-inch Model 27 and a 4.625-inch Blackhawk, the cases fell out of the chambers.


Ballisticians have progressed in the last 25 years. Not only is the equimpent used to measure pressures much better, but in their discovery that peak pressure isn't the only concern. How long that peak pressure is maintained, and the area under the curve is as critical as the peak...and maybe even moreso.

Prosser
June 13, 2012, 05:45 PM
There is NO reason to push a 9mm that hot, in a standard gun. It's just stupid.
If you want more, get a bigger caliber, bigger case, and less pressure.

Deaf Smith
June 14, 2012, 12:16 AM
British L7A1 9mm 'Hirtenberger' ammo gets almost 1400 fps (124 gr slug) from my Glock 17 with Bar-Sto conventionally rifled barrel. Chronoed it myself.

So I guess it can be done.

Deaf

ljnowell
June 14, 2012, 12:33 AM
British L7A1 9mm 'Hirtenberger' ammo gets almost 1400 fps (124 gr slug) from my Glock 17 with Bar-Sto conventionally rifled barrel. Chronoed it myself.

So I guess it can be done.


A quick search of that ammo description brings this up at the top of the first page:

"L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it

Interesting.

1911Tuner
June 14, 2012, 05:23 AM
Interesting.

Indeed. I remember the Israeli black tipped 9mm "Uzi" ammunition that included the caution:

"For Submachine Gun use only. Do not fire this ammunition in a pistol" printed clearly on the box...and it didn't approach the pressures of the Hirtenberger lots. The people who ignored that advice busted Beretta 92 slides like popcorn.

So it can be done.

Lots of things can be done that probably shouldn't be done.

JohnBT
June 15, 2012, 12:16 AM
Department of the Treasury
ATF Office of Public Information

For Immediate Release FY-97-6
Contact: Vickie Saunders
Date: November 7, 1996

HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION

Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm
caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any handgun.

The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the cartridge case

12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle

This ammunition should not be fired.

Prosser
June 15, 2012, 02:09 AM
"Adverse conditions":confused: Does extreme cold lower pressure? Maybe they had an op in Antartica?

MASTARBLASTER
June 15, 2012, 09:09 AM
Straight blowback is a little different, Prosser. The breech opening is delayed by bolt mass. It's a solid bolt...not a slide.

Barrel and breech aren't mechanically locked. There's nothing to stretch. The chamber walls are heavy in the M-10/M-11 pistols, so they can handle a lot of chamber pressure...more than is generated by any pistol cartridge that they're chambered for.

Those tensile stresses are high, and they're very real. That's the one aspect that so many have a problem understanding, but it's the big reason that slides aren't made of aluminum and the reason that the early Smith "Airweight" models would stretch with as few as 50-60 rounds of the old 110-grain +P+ "Treasury" loads.

I keep getting the feeling that a few people have the idea that the limits set by the SAAMI are merely suggestions, and that the people who set them are a pack of scared, hand-wringing wimps who don't understand anything about ballistics or yield properties of ordnance steels...but they do.

The caveats are posted. Do as you think best.
1911TUNER Your well informed posts throughout this topic are the elements that make THR live up to its name THE HIGH ROAD. I have read with increasing interest this complete discussion revolving around the risks/rewards of seeking higher velocity performance that approaches or exceeds maximum SAAMI specs. This specific thread focused on 9mm +P ammo @ 1500 fps, but the cautionary responses apply to any caliber in principle. As I was reading this thread from the start and encountered the over stressed gun sold to a "friend" scenario I was quite alarmed at sudh a low road approach. I continued to read with a bit of apprehension realizing that a fellow shooter will likely be seriously injured as a direct result, just a matter of time. Fortunately you established THE HIGH ROAD in your responses. with all kinds of compelling evidence including links to pics that showed the results of too hot loads and other catastrophic failures.
KEEP ESTABLISHING AN ETHICAL STAND ON THE HIGH ROAD AND OTHER WELL ARMED MEN WILL GIVE A HELPING HAND IN THE HUNT.

Certaindeaf
June 15, 2012, 12:33 PM
People, as I said many times before, I sold the gun to him "as is" with his full knowledge of said issue.. this was thirty years ago. High road indeed.

intercooler
July 15, 2012, 09:13 PM
One of the best tested it. His results were a little lower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ7ri9wa728

Deaf Smith
July 15, 2012, 11:11 PM
Department of the Treasury
ATF Office of Public Information

For Immediate Release FY-97-6
Contact: Vickie Saunders
Date: November 7, 1996

HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION

Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm
caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any handgun.

The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the cartridge case

12 O'clock position: HP
3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
6 O'clock position: L7Al
9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle

This ammunition should not be fired.
Yep but it fired fine, no pressure signs on the primers, no case bulge, no nothing.

Kicked only a bit more than normal.

So at least for MY Glock, it worked real well.

Deaf

RetiredUSNChief
July 15, 2012, 11:38 PM
"Adverse conditions":confused: Does extreme cold lower pressure? Maybe they had an op in Antartica?
"Extreme cold" may lower peak pressure. However, from a fracture mechanics standpoint, the metals of the pistol tend to become less ductile and more brittle.

This means brittle fracture becomes more of a concern as temperatures drop; which means that, even if peak pressure decreases, you may actually be closer to a brittle fracture limit.

Food for thought.

:):)

JohnBT
July 15, 2012, 11:46 PM
I know folks who have fired the hot Hirtenberg in handguns. I figure maybe the ammo maker is a little closer to the facts and has more hands on experience with the ammo.

The Hindenberg didn't burn up immediately after launch, but it did eventually fail because it was a bad idea.

I know folks who have hunted geese with steel and Hevishot using old full choke Remingtons. They've never blown a barrel, but I try not to stand close to them.

silicosys4
July 16, 2012, 07:44 PM
"Finally a 240 grain HP in .44 Special in a Charter Arms bulldog. Loads in the low .44 Magnum range: slightly under 1200 fps.

Gun shot loose and froze. Too much for the little bulldog."

Wow. I was shooting 240 grains out of my bulldog last night, at a whopping 550 fps. Thought it had a bit of a kick to it even at those levels.

silicosys4
July 16, 2012, 07:45 PM
I'm with 1911tuned. Kids, use the excuse to buy a bigger gun, not to load hotter rounds.

Prosser
July 16, 2012, 08:14 PM
"Finally a 240 grain HP in .44 Special in a Charter Arms bulldog. Loads in the low .44 Magnum range: slightly under 1200 fps.

Gun shot loose and froze. Too much for the little bulldog."

Wow. I was shooting 240 grains out of my bulldog last night, at a whopping 550 fps. Thought it had a bit of a kick to it even at those levels."

I was young and stupid. In my defense:
The Remington factory ammo had huge blast, no accuracy, and was so slow you could see the bullets going down range. It combined these excellent factors with huge blast, and a lot of recoil. Seemed almost like black powder.

My loads probably went around 950-1000 fps out of my bulldog. I could easily control the rounds, and put them all on a head sized target easily at 7 yards.

No big blast either.

intercooler
July 17, 2012, 12:20 AM
Man .890" is huge :what:

Prosser
July 17, 2012, 12:43 AM
NO. THIS is huge:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/expanded475275grainbullet.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/quartersand275grainbullet.jpg
2 bore anyone?
275 grain speer HP. Guess what caliber and velocity?
HUGE and 9MM do NOT compute.

intercooler
July 17, 2012, 01:02 AM
If you go to tnoutdoors9 and look at all the .40, .45 and .357 videos this little 9mm HP is bigger than any I could find. Yea it's huge!

PabloJ
July 17, 2012, 01:48 AM
I thought it was kind of nuts too that a 115gr GD did that out of a 4" barrel. Has anyone witnessed or heard of one doing that? I posted the YouTube video but had some questions on it. Someone messaged me and thought I read it wrong, maybe it was 1400.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zaAaDlFmFo&feature=plcp


I'm going shooting again tomorrow and was debating putting the camera in a way to capture the XD and the reading if possible.
I see no evidence that the gun fired is actually chambered for the 9x19 cartridge. Did I miss something in the video?

intercooler
July 17, 2012, 01:55 AM
Which video Pablo? Their has been a couple posted here???

As for tnoutdoors9 he starts off telling EVERYONE it is a Glock 19 9mm.

As for mine it's in the details/comments section.

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