[DinosaurJones]

Pretty crazy... both the suspect and the officer got VERY VERY lucky in this case that neither of them got shot. What I'm curious about though, is how do you have a firing pin spring missing for 2 years and have the gun be operational? Doesn't smell right to me...

...When the officer arrived at the home on Holly Tree Road, Foley — who was not the suspect officers were looking for — was standing in the road aiming a shotgun at the officer's marked police car, Mason said.

"Running into this individual was a complete surprise," Mason said Wednesday.

The officer got out of his car and sought cover before ordering Foley "numerous times" to lower the shotgun, Mason said. Another officer arrived and issued similar commands, Mason said.

The first officer, a nearly four-year veteran of the force, "saw the shotgun was still pointed at him and attempted to fire his weapon," Mason said. "When he pulled the trigger, the hammer dropped and the weapon did not discharge."

As the officer cleared his weapon, Foley began to lower his shotgun and comply with the officers' commands, Mason said. The shotgun discharged away from the officers in the process...

Full article: http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/309212

[TenDriver]

Wow! Glad this turned out well. Makes me wonder whether it was a light strike or bad ammo.

[rcmodel]

is how do you have a firing pin spring missing for 2 years and have the gun be operational?I would suspect it was not the firing pin spring.

I would suspect it was the firing pin safety block spring.

It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.

rc

[Hypnogator]

An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Position Wanted: Police Armorer

Four years experience, 200 Attaboys, only one little awsh**! :neener::neener::neener::evil:

[627PCFan]

It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.

Baring that justification, my first thought was thank god it didnt fire, after 2 years of no pistol practice, god knows who he would have actually hit.

[DinosaurJones]

Baring that justification, my first thought was thank god it didnt fire, after 2 years of no pistol practice, god knows who he would have actually hit.

well, the article says the officer used the gun in his bi-annual qualification. so he supposedly had fired it within the last 6 months, but that was my initial thought also... how do you go two years without firing the weapon you trust your life to on a daily basis.

[flyskater]

I guess someone was praying for the BG to giveup his bad habiits.

[Drail]

..firing pin safeties - just one more thing to go wrong....

[armoredman]

Tucson Police Dept switched from the HK USP to the Glock because of reliability issues with them. When I was working at the indoor range, a TPD officer stopped by in uniform to pop a few rounds from his issued USP. It failed to fire at least 50% of the time. He left looking rather pale. The TPD armorer used to come by every so often with a box full of USPs to test fire.
I would like to see how many rounds that officer fired through that particular sidearm for the spring to be that worn out.

[Loosedhorse]

1. Number one reason a gun fails to fire when the hammer drops is no round in the chamber.
2. Though I understand the concept of a "short" inertial FP, it is unclear to me how the lack of a FP spring would prevent the gun from firing since it had fired before. Also, the fact that the FP spring was apparently missing does not rule out an empty chamber.
3. The pistol did not "fail to fire." The officer either failed to chamber a round, or the armorer failed to properly maintain the pistol, or both. Not a pistol failure.
..firing pin safeties - just one more thing to go wrong.... Well, considering that dropped LE guns without drop safeties tend to attract personal injury lawyers REAL fast, it may be the lesser of two evils.It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.I believe the FP block spring pushes the block down, and a the catch lifts the FP block up when the trigger is pulled.

[Skribs]

LH, it still failed to fire, but the failure was due to lack of proper maintenance or operation.

[SabbathWolf]

Tucson Police Dept switched from the HK USP to the Glock because of reliability issues with them. When I was working at the indoor range, a TPD officer stopped by in uniform to pop a few rounds from his issued USP. It failed to fire at least 50% of the time. He left looking rather pale. The TPD armorer used to come by every so often with a box full of USPs to test fire.
I would like to see how many rounds that officer fired through that particular sidearm for the spring to be that worn out.

Got any "official" links for this?

I find this EXTREMELY difficult to believe that the TPD got rid of HKs because of "reliability" issues at all.

The HK USP45 and the HK Mark23 Socom (developed together simultaneously) have gone through more trials and torture testing than any other handgun on the planet as far as I last checked...including Glock.

Now if they got rid of HKs because of parts availability, cost analysis, difficulties in complicated maintenance, or the fact that the average officer just can't shoot a USP very well......or just happened to get a really great deal on Glocks...including future trade-ins, parts & accessories, etc....I'd buy that.

But I'm not buying that lack of "reliability" was the main driving force behind the switch. There "must" be a lot more to this story.

[armoredman]

Links? I WAS THERE. More to the story? I'd have to say very probably, no political institution does anything for just one logical or illogical reason. I only met the armorer and the officers, and the that was the story they gave me, back in 2000'ish", disremember the precise year. Very probably the was more going on, (Glock DOES sell guns to PDs at giveaway prices!), but what I heard on the street level was what I related.
I can also tell you an I WAS THERE story about HK USP pistols - we had 6 at Jensen's Arizona Sportsman indoor rental range when I started. When I left a year and a half later, we had one - 4 were at the factory for repair work, and the 5th was getting boxed up to go. I will concede rental guns are beaten, but the 10 year old HK P-7 was rented almost every day, and it was still going strong. That was a great pistol.
...or the fact that the average officer just can't shoot a USP very well...
You're kidding, right? So now you're saying the gun you are defending can't be shot well by average people? I know the old bad joke is "HK, because you suck and we hate you", but I didn't believe it...
I will say the checkering on the ones we had did seem a bit sharp, but other than that minor issue I had no difficulty shooting all of the USPs we had. They initially shot reliably and to point of aim for me, until they broke. I wasn't the gunsmith, don't remember all the issues; one that does pop up in memory was the captive recoil spring assembly disassembling itself, but that's kinda minor.
Do remember, this was 12 years ago, when the USP came out, and was THE hot ticket item of the time...every new gun has teething problems, but the USP seemed to be exceptionally bad at the time. I would hazard a good guess that HK has made improvements and that USPs sold today are fine robust pistols worth the HK logo.

[SabbathWolf]

Links? I WAS THERE. More to the story? I'd have to say very probably, no political institution does anything for just one logical or illogical reason. I only met the armorer and the officers, and the that was the story they gave me, back in 2000'ish", disremember the precise year. Very probably the was more going on, (Glock DOES sell guns to PDs at giveaway prices!), but what I heard on the street level was what I related.
I can also tell you an I WAS THERE story about HK USP pistols - we had 6 at Jensen's Arizona Sportsman indoor rental range when I started. When I left a year and a half later, we had one - 4 were at the factory for repair work, and the 5th was getting boxed up to go. I will concede rental guns are beaten, but the 10 year old HK P-7 was rented almost every day, and it was still going strong. That was a great pistol.

You're kidding, right? So now you're saying the gun you are defending can't be shot well by average people? I know the old bad joke is "HK, because you suck and we hate you", but I didn't believe it...
I will say the checkering on the ones we had did seem a bit sharp, but other than that minor issue I had no difficulty shooting all of the USPs we had. They initially shot reliably and to point of aim for me, until they broke. I wasn't the gunsmith, don't remember all the issues; one that does pop up in memory was the captive recoil spring assembly disassembling itself, but that's kinda minor.
Do remember, this was 12 years ago, when the USP came out, and was THE hot ticket item of the time...every new gun has teething problems, but the USP seemed to be exceptionally bad at the time. I would hazard a good guess that HK has made improvements and that USPs sold today are fine robust pistols worth the HK logo.

The "can't be shot well" comment is based on the fact that many people find the grip on the USP to be too large for them to be comfortable with. It has "nothing" to do with the officers being crappy with guns or anything....lol. Don't take this so personally. That's not what I meant.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif

All I can say is I've NEVER heard of anybody else, anywhere on the entire planet, who has gotten rid of USPs because of "reliability" issues what so ever.

In fact, I bought this one all the way back on 23 AUG 1996 (still have the receipt right here if ya wanna see it...lol) and it has been flawless. It has literally thousands+ of rounds through it now over all these years, and I've never had to replace a single spring, firing pin, extractor...nothing at all yet. Nothing.

So, I still stand by my assertion that there is just something weird, strange and unnatural going on in Arizona that just doesn't happen elsewhere. Don't know what else to say.....
USPs are used by various military and L/E agencies in over 16 various countries with great results. Likewise by civilians all over the world for HD and CCW as well...with likewise impressive results.
All these problems in Arizona just seem quite suspicious to me.
:D



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/d786850d.jpg

[B!ngo]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain. Somehow, I think we're missing 'the rest of the story'. I'm not a Glock lover, though I do have near-infinite respect for their design and reliability but I don't think an USP or later (or a P7 for that matter) takes a back seat to anything Glock has ever made.
Cheaper, no DA/SA complication, great marketing and deals with LEO organizations but more reliable? I think not! :)
B

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I once forgot to put the firing pin return spring back in my XD. It was like that for 3 months and only jammed twice out of the few hundred rounds I put through it in that time period. Luckily I discovered it and returned it back to 100%. All it did was cause a jam when the firing pin stopped a new round from chambering because of how far it stuck out.

[Loosedhorse]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain.The pistol did not "fail to fire." The officer either failed to chamber a round, or the armorer failed to properly maintain the pistol, or both. Not a pistol failure.And there is the trouble with saying this is a FTF. We all understand that FTF are "the gun's problem." Here, it was either the armorer's problem or the user's problem.

I know of no gun that is reliable if it reassembled without all the necessary pieces ("Hey, Sarge--what do I do with this left-over spring?" :banghead:); or that fires if its chamber is (as I still suspect) empty.

That said, yes, armoredman, I think that HK did not go in the right direction when it went from P7 to USP--but economically, they had little choice.

[SabbathWolf]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain. Somehow, I think we're missing 'the rest of the story'. I'm not a Glock lover, though I do have near-infinite respect for their design and reliability but I don't think an USP or later (or a P7 for that matter) takes a back seat to anything Glock has ever made.
Cheaper, no DA/SA complication, great marketing and deals with LEO organizations but more reliable? I think not! :)
B


+1000000000000000

"Something" just doesn't quite sound right here at ALL.

[psyopspec]

Sabbath, I agree with you said about the HK reputation, but AM is above reproach as much as a guy on the internet can be. More to the story is still definitely possible. Was the armorer competent, did one bad batch make it into the hands of the PD, etc. In past threads on the subject, I'm the only one I who had a SIG crap the bed on them, and even had to deal with the disbelief of some members ("I don't see how that could be possible..."). Guns: Made by humans, subject to error.

[SabbathWolf]

Sabbath, I agree with you said about the HK reputation, but AM is above reproach as much as a guy on the internet can be. More to the story is still definitely possible. Was the armorer competent, did one bad batch make it into the hands of the PD, etc. In past threads on the subject, I'm the only one I who had a SIG crap the bed on them, and even had to deal with the disbelief of some members ("I don't see how that could be possible..."). Guns: Made by humans, subject to error.

Absolutely and for certain.
I'm not calling the guy out or anything like that.
That's not what I mean.
But I "am" standing my ground 100% here in saying that there "MUST" be more to the story, because "something" is certainly NOT right or within the norm here at all what so ever.

[B!ngo]

Absolutely and for certain.
I'm not calling the guy out or anything like that.
That's not what I mean.
But I "am" standing my ground 100% here in saying that there "MUST" be more to the story, because "something" is certainly NOT right or within the norm here at all what so ever.

I'll see and raise.
Just re-read the article. See which paragraph you think is true or false.

Para 1:
An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Para 2:
Mason said the gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications at the county's firing range, and subsequently fired correctly during tests after the Monday incident.

So, I'm thinkin' that it would tough to figure how the gun had 'gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications' without a firing pin. As reliable as my HK's are, they tend to work better when all parts are present and accounted for.

Something is fishy in whooville. I suspect that the armorer, the officer documenting the qualifications, and the officer himself all have some 'splaining' to do.

Just fortunate that no one was hurt in this kerfuffle.

B.

[SabbathWolf]

I'll see and raise.
Just re-read the article. See which paragraph you think is true or false.

Para 1:
An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Para 2:
Mason said the gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications at the county's firing range, and subsequently fired correctly during tests after the Monday incident.

So, I'm thinkin' that it would tough to figure how the gun had 'gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications' without a firing pin. As reliable as my HK's are, they tend to work better when all parts are present and accounted for.

Something is fishy in whooville. I suspect that the armorer, the officer documenting the qualifications, and the officer himself all have some 'splaining' to do.

Just fortunate that no one was hurt in this kerfuffle.

B.

Well Ricky......lol....

That's a tough one.
But bottom line to me is "somebody" is frickin' lying through their teeth to cover their own rear ends.

How many shots are fired at a PD qualification?
And x's that by twice in the same year?
No malfunctions at all huh?
Hmmmmmm....

The armorer didn't put the spring back in. Well...OK...that could happen I guess. But not just one, but two complete qualifications after that and the gun ran just fine huh?
Hmmmmmm.....

To me, and of course this is pure unsubstantiated opinion only....
Either:

1) This cop never qualified in the first place and had a range buddy just "sign off" on his score card for the records department...or...

2) This cop never chambered a round in the first place...and so in order to save face in the eye of the public, the PD blamed it on a "fictitious" unnamed armorer who doesn't even exist so as to not embarrass the cop nor the department for their sorry training and skills.

What do "you" think?

[tarosean]

Dont a lot of LEO's qualify with weapons other than what they carry?

[Onmilo]

Murphey stikes again.

[GLOOB]

To clarify, it was a missing firing pin SPRING. Not a missing firing pin. Or an FP safety spring.

As other have noted, a gun can fire most of the time without a firing pin spring. People sometimes notice a broken spring when they inspect the gun, rather than due to serious malfunction. I've broken two FP springs, and both times, I noticed it while detail stripping.

If the FP safety spring broke the gun wouldn't be dropsafe anymore, but it would still fire just fine. At least every gun I've ever seen would. (Well, except my HP-22A, but that's a whole different story).

[Gunnerboy]

Someone forgot to have one in the chamber.....

[Jim NE]

My brand new S&W 9mm functioned perfectly from the factory without a striker bushing for the first 250 rounds. It never had one, because when I sent it back to the factory, they said "Oh, we found the problem - you forgot to put the striker bushing back after you disassembled and cleaned the slide!"

Just one problem. Id NEVER disassembled and cleaned the slide (because the owners manual says not to.) I'd only field stripped the gun.

But if I'd been one of those folks who puts 100 rounds through a new gun then puts it in the closet to be used only in the case of an emergency, I'd never have known there was a problem.

[power5]

He loaded his mag according to the H&K photos. How could it have not fired? :D

[skeeziks]

I GARRONTEE you that he failed to chamber one....

[golden]

We had two officers show up for qualification and neither could fire their gun as they were rusted shut. The H&K P 2000 did not handle the moisture in the enviorment where they were working. Very humid.

The range officer who examined their guns said they were filthy and unable to function.

To my knowledge, the previous issue gun, the GLOCK 17 did not have any problems with the enviorment.

Jim

[armoredman]

psyopspec, thanks for the backup. It's OK, I've been disbelieved many times - it's always interesting when I talk about the Glocks that have failed in my hand, ah, the screams and furor are always shrill and forceful.
To reiterate what I said earlier that was overlooked - I would hazard a good solid guess there was other factors involved - I was talking to the troops on the ground, the ones who had the repeated issues.
I also said HK makes a good product, and has a reputation that was earned, so we were very surprised to find all these issues with this first generation pistol. My boss went so far as to change what "USP" stood for, she was so disgusted with the problems. This was from a woman who loved the P-7 and the MP-5, by the way.
I also stated that this was 12 years ago or so, and any issues that many have been back then are undoubtedly fixed by now, like the famous teething issues of the CZ P-07, now completely rectified.
One last item - broken firing pin spring. Some guns, (SKS), were designed without one at all. Just a casual observation, nothing more.
golden, while I would assume the environment had something to do with the damage, incredibly poor maintenance will kill any gun, no matter how well it is built. In that case the staff needed some disciplinary action to rectify the situation.

[SabbathWolf]

psyopspec, thanks for the backup. It's OK, I've been disbelieved many times - it's always interesting when I talk about the Glocks that have failed in my hand, ah, the screams and furor are always shrill and forceful.
To reiterate what I said earlier that was overlooked - I would hazard a good solid guess there was other factors involved - I was talking to the troops on the ground, the ones who had the repeated issues.
I also said HK makes a good product, and has a reputation that was earned, so we were very surprised to find all these issues with this first generation pistol. My boss went so far as to change what "USP" stood for, she was so disgusted with the problems. This was from a woman who loved the P-7 and the MP-5, by the way.
I also stated that this was 12 years ago or so, and any issues that many have been back then are undoubtedly fixed by now, like the famous teething issues of the CZ P-07, now completely rectified.
One last item - broken firing pin spring. Some guns, (SKS), were designed without one at all. Just a casual observation, nothing more.
golden, while I would assume the environment had something to do with the damage, incredibly poor maintenance will kill any gun, no matter how well it is built. In that case the staff needed some disciplinary action to rectify the situation.


Like I said in post #20, I don't disbelieve you.

I am agreeing with the part that there must be more to the story other than all the guns just sucked for no reason.

One thing I failed to ask however is....
"Which" USPs were these guns?
Full-size or compacts?
Which caliber?
9mm, 40cal or 45acp?
I'd be interested to see if there were ever any recalls on your "specific" guns in question here?
It's possible.

[PabloJ]

The "can't be shot well" comment is based on the fact that many people find the grip on the USP to be too large for them to be comfortable with. It has "nothing" to do with the officers being crappy with guns or anything....lol. Don't take this so personally. That's not what I meant.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif

All I can say is I've NEVER heard of anybody else, anywhere on the entire planet, who has gotten rid of USPs because of "reliability" issues what so ever.

In fact, I bought this one all the way back on 23 AUG 1996 (still have the receipt right here if ya wanna see it...lol) and it has been flawless. It has literally thousands+ of rounds through it now over all these years, and I've never had to replace a single spring, firing pin, extractor...nothing at all yet. Nothing.

So, I still stand by my assertion that there is just something weird, strange and unnatural going on in Arizona that just doesn't happen elsewhere. Don't know what else to say.....
USPs are used by various military and L/E agencies in over 16 various countries with great results. Likewise by civilians all over the world for HD and CCW as well...with likewise impressive results.
All these problems in Arizona just seem quite suspicious to me.
:D



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/d786850d.jpg
The P8 is very reliable pistol I would trust in it's performance for both military and civilian use.

[jolly roger]

My PD carried USP 45Cs for several years. Quite a few firing pin breakages and broken decocking levers over 12 years or so of issue. Getting parts quick was a problem and customer service at HK was poor. Have had Glock 21SFs and 30SFs now for about 3 years. Could not be more pleased. Only issue I know of to date out of about 120 guns is one burned out rear night sight. Replaced the next DAY. Time will tell of course with the Glock but so far so good.

[armoredman]

SW, to the best of my knowledge they were full size 9mm. The ones we had on the rental range were full size and compact, 9mm and 40SW, IIRC. I don't remember any recalls issued by HK while I worked there.

[Hk Paul]

This thread reeks of BS and HK hate. Enjoy your Glocks. I, on the other hand, prefer the best.

[Certaindeaf]

Hi point taken!

[Loosedhorse]

This thread reeks of BS...I, on the other hand, prefer the best. I have no doubt there's been some BS in this thread, but the highest concentration seems to be in that post. Enjoy your HK; others, enjoy your Glocks. Keep them in good repair (no missing pieces, please :D), and make sure the chamber's loaded if you need to use it.

[mr.trooper]

The department armorers I've met tend to be fickle souls. Sometimes they say certain things in order to avoid in-depth conversations with people.

[skeeziks]

OK....you guys over here, enjoy your Glocks. And you guys over there, enjoy your HK's.
Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying my SIG! (West German...not the Exeter-made.)

[aliveisalive]

Suprised I didnt hear about this, as I work with Roanoke city. Guess thats why city cops carry glocks?

[armoredman]

The funny thing about his comment is I don't like Glocks, (they don't fit me), and the only Hk pistol I really would love to own is, (ready for this?) is a VP70z. :)
But because someone said there is HK hate on here, I'll say it AGAIN, HK makes some damn fine firearms, love the MP-5, niftiest subgun I ever fired was an HK MP-5/10 FBI issue. Everyone stumbles now and then, CZ-100, Colt All American 2000, anything ever butchered by Century Arms, etc., it happens.
Mr Trooper, I've known about 4 Dept Armorers, one was a self centered egotistical idiot, the others were pretty good guys. :)

[Hk Paul]

HK is the best gun manufacturer in the world. <-Period.
Normally I would apologize for making such a blanket statement that "Joe-the-Plumber" types would find to be arrogant, condescending, and opinionated. But this is HK- they really are the best!

If you can't tell, I am in love.

[Weevil]

Always nice to hear an unbiased opinion.


:D

[SabbathWolf]

SW, to the best of my knowledge they were full size 9mm. The ones we had on the rental range were full size and compact, 9mm and 40SW, IIRC. I don't remember any recalls issued by HK while I worked there.


Hmmmm.
Interesting.

[SabbathWolf]

HK is the best gun manufacturer in the world. <-Period.
Normally I would apologize for making such a blanket statement that "Joe-the-Plumber" types would find to be arrogant, condescending, and opinionated. But this is HK- they really are the best!

If you can't tell, I am in love.


Yes...well...
I'll agree that I've owned so many pistols over the years that I lost count.
And my HK by far and away is the single "BEST" pistol I've ever owed. Period.

This whole thing has me wondering if HK just specifically hates Arizona for some reason and just sent them all their factory rejects?
:D

[NMGonzo]

Baring that justification, my first thought was thank god it didnt fire, after 2 years of no pistol practice, god knows who he would have actually hit.

He did not test fire his weapon after service.

Yeah ... the armorer messed up; but I test the brakes on the car before leaving the parking lot, man.

[armoredman]

No, they just sent the ones that had the rounds in backwards...like the catalog...:)

[SabbathWolf]

He did not test fire his weapon after service.

Yeah ... the armorer messed up; but I test the brakes on the car before leaving the parking lot, man.

Yep.
I agree 100% with this.
I always test fire everything repeatedly before I just "assume" it's fine and go to depending my life on it.

What bothers me though is "what if" the spring really was missing?
And "what if" the gun "did" fire fine through 2 qualifications?
"What if" the officer really "did" test his weapon out before this incident?"

...Then "why" would it just mysteriously fail after functioning just fine, right during a moment of high stress?
I still don't think he had a round in the chamber....lol
:D

[SabbathWolf]

No, they just sent the ones that had the rounds in backwards...like the catalog...:)


LOL!

I've not seen that catalog, but that would be pretty funny!
:D

[armoredman]

You didn't? It was an HK catalog from a few years ago, collectors item now, USP and magazine on the front, and the rounds in the mag were in backwards. They tried to get them all back.

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2009/10/perils-of-marketing-technical-product.html

[Onmilo]

My little tribute to the H&K ad blunder
http://www.fototime.com/EE7ED825FE05758/standard.jpg

[SabbathWolf]

You didn't? It was an HK catalog from a few years ago, collectors item now, USP and magazine on the front, and the rounds in the mag were in backwards. They tried to get them all back.

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2009/10/perils-of-marketing-technical-product.html


I read the whole thing.
FUNNY stuff....lol!

[SabbathWolf]

My little tribute to the H&K ad blunder
http://www.fototime.com/EE7ED825FE05758/standard.jpg


LOL....
gotta luv them backwards bullets.....lol

[wally]

If its got the LEM trigger and someone put the wrong hammer spring in, or tried to "improve" the second strike long pull, its pretty easy to make them not fire. My LEM kit unexpectedly came with a pair of hammer springs and the lighter one wouldn't set off rounds reliably although it had a wonderful second strike (slide not cycled) trigger pull. The heavier spring worked fine, although the second strike trigger pull was little better than the original DAO trigger. The LEM kit gives a nice "Glock-like" trigger with a second strike capability, sorta like the Walther P99 AS.

[918v]

I've been carrying and shooting my USP since 2007 and have not had one single malfunction over several thousand rounds. The double action pull is crappy, I agree, but the single action pull is awesome. It does get better over time.

If an armorer gave me a gun with springs missing, he would certainly know about it before the gun went on duty because such things are easily discovered during cleaning. This officer is as much to blame as the armorer.

In addition, and I see this all the time on the range, people need to look at the rounds they are loading into the magazine. I see people loading 9mm into .40's. I see people loading defective rounds, i.e. primers seated upsidedown, sideways, or missing altogether, crushed case mouths, etc. Then they proceed to call the gun a POS when it malfunctions. And these people are supposedly trained.

Guns aren't perfect, ammo isn't perfect. People with half a brain are few and far between.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I believe that a gun can be fired without a firing pin spring for the most part, reliably. I forgot to but it back in my XD and it was fine for the most part. Only jammed twice in 500 rounds.

This thread reeks of BS and HK hate. Enjoy your Glocks. I, on the other hand, prefer the best.

The best? Really? Show me what is the best and please, back that up with something. Just saying that it's the best is just fanboyism. I see these claims all the time and every single person that made the claim, could never back it up. No one appeared to be bashing HK. Any gun could be made to malfunction if it's missing parts.

[GLOOB]

I believe that a gun can be fired without a firing pin spring for the most part, reliably. I forgot to but it back in my XD and it was fine for the most part. Only jammed twice in 500 rounds.
I can imagine that a single shot hammer fired pistol racked immediately before firing the first shot might work 100% at the range (or during qualifications), sans firing pin spring.

But a gun that is chambered then carried muzzle-down in a holster doesn't seem like it should fire on the first shot. Gravity would pull the firing pin down to below flush with the breechface.

And an XD firing without a firing pin spring, I'm having a hard time to imagine. Oh, I suppose you meant firing pin safety spring?? I don't see how a striker fired gun would fire without a striker spring? As I've said before, most any gun will fire without a firing pin safety spring. Every passive firing pin safety I've seen needs the spring to ACTIVATE the safety. Moving the trigger pushes the safety out of the way.

[dom1104]

I have never seen a HK USP fail myself.

I have however, seen a lot of first shots tossed into the dirt at the lower left of the target when they try to compete with striker guns speed.

Its funny sometimes, but honestly thats all DA / SA pistols.

[GLOOB]

^ I have made an HK with frame decocker fail from user error. I've heard some shoot it with a revolver grip, with support thumb locked over shooting thumb, to keep their thumb below the decocker.

I like how some of their guns decock by pressing a button on the back of the slide. That's definitely out of the way.

[Walt Sherrill]

As noted in the prior message, it was a firing pin spring, not a firing pin block spring that was mentioned.

If the gun doesn't have a firing pin spring, the firing pin won't always be positioned to the rear where it can be struck by the hammer. If it has moved forward -- and there is a gap it must jump to engage the primer -- the hammer may not even hit the rear of the firing pin when it drops.

If the armorer didn't install the firing pin spring, a misfire could have happened exactly as described.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

And an XD firing without a firing pin spring, I'm having a hard time to imagine. Oh, I suppose you meant firing pin safety spring?? I don't see how a striker fired gun would fire without a striker spring? As I've said before, most any gun will fire without a firing pin safety spring. Every passive firing pin safety I've seen needs the spring to ACTIVATE the safety. Moving the trigger pushes the safety out of the way.

It was the return spring to keep it from protruding beyond the breach face. It acts like a spring does in a hammer fired auto by pushing the firing pin back from the primer. Without it, it can stay forward and stop the next round from chambering by being in the way.

Here is the thread I made on it thinking it was a design flaw before discovering my mistake. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=636523

[KenW.]

well, the article says the officer used the gun in his bi-annual qualification. so he supposedly had fired it within the last 6 months, but that was my initial thought also... how do you go two years without firing the weapon you trust your life to on a daily basis.

Bi- annual is every two years; whereas semi annual is twice a year.

We got rid of our HKs because they were showing a lot of wear and are a pain to maintain. I understand they were at the end of their service life. They were great guns for a few years.

[DC3-CVN-72]

I'm calling B.S. This officer did not chamber a round. I smell C.Y.A. He probably did not qual. either. :uhoh:

[GLOOB]

It was the return spring to keep it from protruding beyond the breach face. It acts like a spring does in a hammer fired auto by pushing the firing pin back from the primer. Without it, it can stay forward and stop the next round from chambering by being in the way.
Interesting. But it doesn't act the same as a firing pin spring in a hammer fired auto. Glocks don't have that spring. After pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, the striker just flops around. The striker obviously can't interfere with the next round chambering in either gun, because when the slide comes back to battery, the striker gets left behind. It gets caught by the sear.

So now, I'm not surprised that an XD would fire 100% without that spring. In an HK, it would be a gamble. That spring makes sure the inertial firing pin is protruding from the breechface so the hammer can hit it.

[Walt Sherrill]

After pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, the striker just flops around. The striker obviously can't interfere with the next round chambering in either gun...

As soon as the slide moves just a small distance -- necessary to load the next round -- the spring is, again, almost fully recharged, and there's no slop.

If the striker spring wasn't present (as with an absent firing pin spring), I don't think the trigger would even work, but the striker COULD interfere with the next round being loaded. There's nothing to keep it out of the way, if the gun was in just the right position. I don't think the striker-fired gun could be made to fire, but the hammer-fired gun COULD be, if things were just right.