Gun Deaths Outpace Motor Vehicle Deaths in 10 States in 2009 New Analysis Shows


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Sky
May 25, 2012, 11:36 PM
http://www.vpc.org/press/1205gunsvscars.htm

Interesting: WASHINGTON, DC--A new Violence Policy Center (VPC) state-by-state analysis of government data comparing firearm deaths and motor vehicle deaths shows that gun deaths outpaced motor vehicle deaths in 10 states in 2009, the most recent year for which state level data is available.

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T Bran
May 25, 2012, 11:46 PM
Probably because they havent started putting airbags in hollow points yet but give them time.
All kidding aside it is hard to beleive as the number of cars on the road increases yearly here thus the accidents as well. Though this may not be true in other states.
As the population increases in an ideal world the stats should remain the same but we dont live in an ideal world. Cars do get safer every year.

rcmodel
May 25, 2012, 11:51 PM
All this proves to me is more gang bangers use guns then cars to kill people with.

It's to the point I can't turn on KCTV5 news at 5:00 every evening without another unsolved drive-by murder or four in Kansas City MO.

Whats even worse, even with 137 witnesses standing around or running away?
Nobody saw nothing, or heard anything!!
And won't talk to the cops if they did.

And there are several worse gang banger cities then KC in the country.

rc

R.W.Dale
May 25, 2012, 11:57 PM
Times are tough and lots of folks are taking that permanent self checkout line.

Eliminate suicides and I'll bet the number drops off precipitously

atomd
May 25, 2012, 11:57 PM
oops...previous comment was not about this article. doh!

Lost Sheep
May 26, 2012, 12:04 AM
The quote from VPC "It is time to end firearms’ status as the last unregulated consumer product." shows their bias. They went hunting for statistics that supports their agenda and published what they could find supporting their position.

The fact that automobiles are killing less is a good thing and implies that cars are getting better designed at what they do, transport people and things safely. The fact that more people die from gunshot also implies that guns (or more accurately, bullets) are also getting better designed at what they do.

Whether the "right people" are getting run over or the "right people" are getting shot, and in the proper quantities is a question I do not trust agenda-driven researchers to advise on.

In my opinion, VPC is trading in nonsense.

I wonder how many of each source's deaths were attributable to justifiable homicide in defense of one's own or another's life and how the numbers would stack up if the "Self-Defense" automobile deaths were subtracted from the automobile deaths and the "Self-Defense" firearms deaths were subtracted from the firearms deaths?

Lost Sheep

JohnM
May 26, 2012, 12:50 AM
VPC's data is loaded. They work hand in hand with the Brady Committee, etc.

Shimitup
May 26, 2012, 01:08 AM
Isn't it interesting how the likes of VPC and Brady Campaign never elaborate on their research methodology. Pretty much makes it all senseless blathering.

CSC_Saint
May 26, 2012, 01:28 AM
But guns are evil, making innocent, impressionable people do things they would never do without a gun in their hands.
Agreed with lost Sheep, always good that cars killing less, and it does sound like an agenda oriented report.

ApacheCoTodd
May 26, 2012, 01:37 AM
Wow... I got nothin' to argue with in the form of hard numbers but more than 2 1/3 gun related deaths every (average) day in Arizona? News to me!

Of course there is the inter-scum shooting gallery surrounding the importation/kidnapping of illegals and the drug trade so I'm sure most of us are not privy to the numbers used in the statistics presented. Now just back the heck off on this before the statement is used to veer the topic, I'm just saying that Arizona residents who care to know, are aware that there is a level of violence surrounding these activities which seems to be deliberately ignored till the numbers are allowed to serve on some level or other.

I do know the VPC has been nothing but stand-up and unemotional in their presentation of "facts" in the past.:barf:

I'd really love to see if the car deaths are the same as NTSB stats or those of or other bodies.

You know what the man said about "... Lies, damned lies and statistics?

JellyJar
May 26, 2012, 01:49 AM
The VPC is dishonestly trying to convince people with biased, distorted and dishonest evidence that only bad things come from gun ownership.

Fortunately, more and more people are seeing through their [ non-highroad language ] and are ignoring them!

happygeek
May 26, 2012, 01:49 AM
Wow... I got nothin' to argue with in the form of hard numbers but more than 2 1/3 gun related deaths every (average) day in Arizona? News to me!

Of course there is the inter-scum shooting gallery surrounding the importation/kidnapping of illegals and the drug trade so I'm sure most of us are not privy to the numbers used in the statistics presented.


'Gun deaths' includes everything from justifiable homicides to suicides to people who are shot by the cops. From what I've read suicides tend to make up about 55% of 'gun deaths' in any given year.

ApacheCoTodd
May 26, 2012, 02:27 AM
'Gun deaths' includes everything from justifiable homicides to suicides to people who are shot by the cops. From what I've read suicides tend to make up about 55% of 'gun deaths' in any given year.
Now, that's fascinating. I hadn't thought of suicides, self defense or Officer Involveds being part of the stats. Thanks.

dogmush
May 26, 2012, 08:51 AM
FWIW, CDC reports (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm) 18,735 suicides by firearm in 2009. And while that's tragic, I don't think it reflects on, or could be changed very much by, firearms laws. That works out to 60% of the firearms deaths reported by VPC are self inflicted.

The Lone Haranguer
May 26, 2012, 09:05 AM
If the total number of deaths by gunshot are included, that figure might be true. But it is deceptive in that it doesn't take the circumstances into account. Certainly, many deaths are the result of murder, negligence or suicide. But people shot righteously by LEOs and civilians are not taken into account. These ultimately, IMO, save more lives than they take.

CountryUgly
May 26, 2012, 09:15 AM
No surprise Virginia is on the list. Really if the drive into D.C. doesn't kill you it's also a great gun free area to get mugged and shot. I'd of been shocked if Michigan wasn't on the list and I'll bet since the stats are so close the car and gun deaths are closely related in most cases. Same for Indiana. Let's say you stop at a 4-way in Detroit, East Chicago or Gary and someone tries to carjack you. You or BG gets shot then tossed in front of the car then bam you got a "2 fer" on the stat sheet. The rest can be explained very simply, they are low population states with only one major city which makes it far easier to skew the numbers in the favor of the antis.

JohnBT
May 26, 2012, 09:15 AM
Gee, I wonder if they factored in the national decrease in the annual miles driven due to the increase in the price of gas? I've seen lots of articles on the mileage drop.

Sgt_R
May 26, 2012, 09:43 AM
TTAG deconstructed this argument pretty well HERE. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/bruce-krafft/comparing-car-and-gun-fatalities-is-misleading-and-irrelevant/)

TL;DR: Once you adjust for suicides, gun deaths come in way behind motor vehicle deaths in the US.

R

Robert
May 26, 2012, 09:50 AM
I stopped reading after this:
A new Violence Policy Center (VPC)

The VPC is not known for truthful unbiased figures. And like others have pointed out, their numbers include ALL firearms related deaths. <Helen Lovejoy> Won't someone please think of the children!?<Helen Lovejoy>

Pigoutultra
May 26, 2012, 10:08 AM
it really puts it into perspective


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2009_release.pdf

Carl N. Brown
May 26, 2012, 10:28 AM
This horse was beat to death at Volokh Conspiracy over a editorial about Michigan that cited VPC.

I'll repeat the arguments I made there. Using the WISQARS statistics for 2009 Michigan (962 accidental motor vehicle deaths, 12 accidental gun deaths, 572 gun suicides, 495 gun homicides):

The relevant product safety stats are the accidental deaths: 962 accidental motor vehicle deaths versus 12 accidental gun deaths. Consumer product safety regulation can have an impact on accidental deaths. Do those numbers represent a product safety problem with guns?

Intentional deaths are the result of the lethal intentions of those who commit homicide or suicide with firearms. Look at it this way: would federal product safety regulation impact intentional deaths (suicides or homicides) with motor vehicles? Do airbags or seat belts prevent deliberate vehicular homicides?

Criminologist Marvin Wolfgang (who personally hated guns) studied 588 homicides in depth and concluded that few homicides due to shooting would be avoided in the absence of the gun. Motive and opportunity determined the outcome more than the presence or absence of a given means. The same has been observed in suicides by restricting various means.

ADDED: What I suspect VPC is shooting for is Consumer Product Safety laws that would say, for example, if a revolver or lever action rifle does not have manual safety switch or crossbolt, it will be condemned as "unsafe at any range" and ordered confiscated and destroyed in the name of safety.

DavidMS
May 26, 2012, 10:47 AM
Can we title this one "Lying with Statistics"?

I see a few problems.


Automotive deaths are calculated on a vehicles miles driven basis, not ownership.
Firearms deaths should be calculated based on per 100K guns in the US.
Guns are already regulated by SAMMI. We could get into an argument about mandating proofing but this isn't the place.
Years ago I saw a chart showing the historical trend of firearms deaths in the US. It was sloped downwards.
Want to reduce death from firearms? Improve access to mental health services. Don't restrict guns.

I don't think we need to discredit the VPC. They do a good job on their own. They could use some help in the publicity department.

Double Naught Spy
May 26, 2012, 11:23 AM
Years ago I saw a chart showing the historical trend of firearms deaths in the US. It was sloped downwards.

And where did this data come from?

7.62 Nato
May 26, 2012, 11:31 AM
"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."


VPC is nothing but lying statisticians.

Mr.Davis
May 26, 2012, 11:48 AM
VPC is in the same class with the Brady Campaign, and this nothing they say should be trusted.

ConstitutionCowboy
May 26, 2012, 12:12 PM
Does the VPC's data differentiate between murder, suicide, self defense, and accident? How can anyone rightly compare auto accident deaths to anything other than accidental deaths via other means?

Oh, right. I forgot. Sorry. The ends justify their means.

Woody

Telekinesis
May 26, 2012, 12:14 PM
Isn't it interesting how the likes of VPC and Brady Campaign never elaborate on their research methodology. Pretty much makes it all senseless blathering.

I forget which study it was, but several years ago I was able to find the actual study cited by either the VPC or Brady and it was so full of holes it should have been laughed out of the peer review before being published!

Guns are already regulated by SAMMI. We could get into an argument about mandating proofing but this isn't the place.

SAMMI is far from regulation because it sets standards which are followed voluntarily by manufacturers. No wildcat or +P+ loadings are listed/specified by SAMMI, but that doesn't make them illegal.

Sky
May 26, 2012, 01:31 PM
http://www.nramedia.org/t/590443/6565905/14712/0/


Fast forward to the present. This week, the VPC claimed that in 2009, firearm-related deaths outnumbered motor vehicle accident deaths in 10 states. It said, "Motor vehicle deaths are on the decline as the result of a successful decades-long public health-based injury prevention strategy that includes safety-related changes to vehicles and highway design informed by comprehensive data collection and analysis. Meanwhile, firearms are the only consumer product not regulated by the federal government for health and safety."

That's baloney, of course. The reason that anti-gun activists dropped their "cars and guns" propaganda more than a decade ago is that after 1993, motor vehicle accident deaths began increasing sharply, despite massive government regulation of vehicles, drivers and roads, while deaths involving firearms began decreasing. So great did the disparity between the two trends eventually become, that by 2004 there were 15,364 more motor vehicle accident deaths than all firearm-related deaths combined.

happygeek
May 26, 2012, 02:23 PM
Years ago I saw a chart showing the historical trend of firearms deaths in the US. It was sloped downwards.


And where did this data come from?


He was possibly referring to this:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 26, 2012, 02:39 PM
Guns are already regulated by SAMMI. We could get into an argument about mandating proofing but this isn't the place
SAAMI is a voluntary industry association. It's a little misleading to call that regulation.

SAMMI only deals with ammunition specifications, not with the guns themselves.
You might want to let SAAMI know that, otherwise they'll keep cranking out documents like this:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/207.pdf

But it might be that the SAMMI you two are talking about is different from the SAAMI I am thinking of. :)

Wanderling
May 26, 2012, 03:38 PM
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. ;)

The cars did indeed get a whole lot safer in the last 20 years. That's a good thing.

brickeyee
May 26, 2012, 04:32 PM
That works out to 60% of the firearms deaths reported by VPC are self inflicted.

This would tend to invalidate the conclusion they are driving at.

It tanks right up there with only counting cases were a gun is used to kill someone as the sole metric for using a gun defensively.

Another common shibboleth of bad studies often sourced from the left.

Telekinesis
May 27, 2012, 02:04 AM
Hmm, I stand corrected. I've only heard SAAMI mentioned in discussions about ammo, so I thought they were only involved in the proofing of loads.

Cosmoline
May 27, 2012, 02:58 AM
Alaska: 104 gun deaths, 84 motor vehicle deaths

They're absolutely, positively including suicides in this figure. So a depressed guy shoots himself in the head, and they count that as a "gun death" even though, absent a firearm, he would have just as easy a time ending his life by, say, taking a swim. Or hopping off any of our millions of cliffs. Or throwing a rope over a tree branch or joist.

If you compare accidental killings involving a firearm with accidental killings involving a car, the numbers aren't even in the same universe.

Complete hogwash, basically. What else would you expect from VPC?

Forage
May 27, 2012, 05:13 AM
I think there were something like double the amount of suicides as there were motor vehicle fatalities last year in Canada, which has less guns per person than the States. So I could see how it would be pretty easy for gun deaths to surpass traffic deaths if there were a lot more guns available.

I'm also pretty sure that Canada actually has a higher per-capita suicide rate than America, while still having way less guns per person. This does somewhat undermine any link between gun ownership and increased rates of suicide. Although you still have to consider external circumstances: ie, how many nights in a row can you sit in an igloo eating boiled moose wang in the dark before you end it all?

Sky
May 27, 2012, 10:28 AM
I'm also pretty sure that Canada actually has a higher per-capita suicide rate than America, while still having way less guns per person. This does somewhat undermine any link between gun ownership and increased rates of suicide. Although you still have to consider external circumstances: ie, how many nights in a row can you sit in an igloo eating boiled moose wang in the dark before you end it all?

Hummmmmm

NavyLCDR
May 27, 2012, 12:01 PM
Now, that's fascinating. I hadn't thought of suicides, self defense or Officer Involveds being part of the stats. Thanks.
Probably because the Violence Policy Center will never tell you that because it lessens the emotional, brain-washing impact of their statements.

IndianaBoy
May 27, 2012, 12:07 PM
VPC is a bunch of scumbags.

Their studies aren't useful for anything but lining the floor of a kennel.


When they quote firearms deaths, they include suicides, justifiable self defense killings, justifiable police shootings, gang bangers killing other gang bangers... etc.


If I recall correctly, they even include gang bangers still in their teens... (19? perhaps even older), in their data set for 'children killed by handguns'.


:barf:

Biased morons desperately trying to stay relevant.

Neverwinter
May 27, 2012, 02:11 PM
When they quote firearms deaths, they include suicides, justifiable self defense killings, justifiable police shootings, gang bangers killing other gang bangers... etc.

One of these things is not like the others...

Sent using Tapatalk 2

Nicky Santoro
May 27, 2012, 02:24 PM
A new Violence Policy Center (VPC) state-by-state analysis of government data....

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The day I believe anything that comes out of the VPC is the day pigs fly.

leadcounsel
May 27, 2012, 02:30 PM
I get annoyed with bogus stats...

For instance, it's often said that "texting while driving is responsible for more deaths than drunk driving..." Well, it doesn't take a genious to figure out that more people text and drive, and it occurs during larger periods of the 24 hour day, with more frequency, by more people, during periods of the day when there are more people statistically on the roads. Whereas drunk driving typically occurs from 10pm-4am by a small number of people when there are not as many people on the roads...

Getting back on topic, we don't know why those "gun deaths" occurred. Self defense? Police shootings? Suicides...?

Also, cars are much safer today than ever. ABS, 8 air bags, AWD, crumple zones, shatter-safe glass, better materials and crash testing proceedures, the free market making better cars, seatbelt laws, etc. 30 years ago you'd ride around in a hunk of steel with rear wheel drive and poor breaks and bald tires and steering and possibly no seatbelts being used...

arizona98tj
May 27, 2012, 06:09 PM
Read pages 39 & 40....regarding accidental gun deaths (they have a number of interesting comparisons and the data comes for the Center for Disease Control).

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

If you don't have a copy of this handy, download it. Put it on your hard drive, cell phone, tablet, etc. I've used it before.....it is the easiest tool to use to slap down a BS firearms discussion with a coworker, neighbor, etc.

Warp
May 27, 2012, 06:16 PM
Does the VPC's data differentiate between murder, suicide, self defense, and accident? How can anyone rightly compare auto accident deaths to anything other than accidental deaths via other means?

Oh, right. I forgot. Sorry. The ends justify their means.

Woody

BINGO.

The first thing I tell every single person who will listen, is that when evaluating statistics or numbers one must be very clear on the definition of terms. Find out how the term is defined, and then ask (yourself and the provider of the info) why that term and definition were chosen.

A very, VERY common strategy for deception from the antis is to lump all "gun violence" or "gun deaths" into one singular category with the implication that all of them were negative.

PS: Another area to especially look for this is when they use the term child or kid.

mstreddy
May 27, 2012, 06:31 PM
Folks,

VPC's data is skewed, to say the least. Obviously, they have an agenda -- an Anti-Gun agenda. The CDC has the numbers for mortality/death rates here: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/mortality/lcwk9.htm. I only see up to 2008 available, but haven't dug too much. The FBI maintains crime stats that you can use to compare as well, and I'm sure the NTSB has numbers for motor vehicle accidents.
By far, the numbers from VPC are misleading at best. Yes, they seem to be including suicide, police involved shootings and the like in their "gun deaths" numbers, but I don't expect much better from them.

EM

Edit - just found the 2009 data: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2009_release.pdf

p2000sk
May 27, 2012, 06:47 PM
http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/nexus.pdf (http://http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/nexus.pdf)

I found this report from a search of "drug nexus" (nexus, meaning of connection). The summary is on page 13 of 17.

The antis beat their drum without filtering out the drug culture related deaths.

As an example, little Jimmy gets shot while practicing his vocation of streetcorner pharmaceutical sales. Little Jimmy dies as a result of his wounds. Little Jimmy becomes a statistical number as a gun/homicide victim.
A statistical number which happens to be used as fuel on the anti-gun fire.

If a death is relative to narcotic trafficking, how is it fair that such a number not be statistically separated in a way that it could not be used against the pro-gun community?

Warp
May 27, 2012, 07:07 PM
http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/nexus.pdf (http://http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/nexus.pdf)

I found this report from a search of "drug nexus" (nexus, meaning of connection). The summary is on page 13 of 17.

The antis beat their drum without filtering out the drug culture related deaths.

As an example, little Jimmy gets shot while practicing his vocation of streetcorner pharmaceutical sales. Little Jimmy dies as a result of his wounds. Little Jimmy becomes a statistical number as a gun/homicide victim.
A statistical number which happens to be used as fuel on the anti-gun fire.

If a death is relative to narcotic trafficking, how is it fair that such a number not be statistically separated in a way that it could not be used against the pro-gun community?

And what I am more concerned with is when Little Jimmy attempts armed robbery to get money to pay his pharmaceutical dealer and the intended victim shoots/kills Little Jimmy. Bang...gun death. But the kind of gun death that is precisely why we do NOT want to restrict firearms ownership, and why we need to stop deceiving and misleading the general public in an attempt to disarm them

Carl N. Brown
May 27, 2012, 11:39 PM
How can anyone rightly compare auto accident deaths to anything other than accidental deaths via other means?

It bears repeating: VPC wants guns regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, like gas grills and teddy bears, with mandatory recalls of "unsafe products"; in the case of firearms, that could be declaring leveraction rifles without crossbolt safeties "unsafe".

The vast majority of gun death numbers used by VPC are intentional homicide or suicide, not accidents, and comparing those intentional deaths to deaths by auto accidents and implying additional safety features would prevent them is :what:

hAkron
May 27, 2012, 11:48 PM
Handguns were designed SPECIFICALLY for self protection. Cars were designed for transportation. The fact that anybody is shocked that guns were responsible for more deaths than cars in only 10 of the 50 states is a horrifying commentary on how unsafe cars are.

Shimitup
May 28, 2012, 01:56 AM
Having given this some thought, my safety is guaranteed by any gun I own. I have absolute certainty that I can load any one of them and pull the trigger and it will go bang every time. Why in the world would I want CPSC messing with a perfect track record like that. :rolleyes:

303tom
May 28, 2012, 10:26 AM
Cars are getting safer & people are not..............

Deanimator
May 28, 2012, 11:03 AM
I would no more trust VPC on gun control than I'd trust the Institute for Historical Review on the Holocaust.

They have an agenda, and one which they never allow truth to get in the way of.

Loosedhorse
May 28, 2012, 03:38 PM
For me personally, none of my firearms died this year. One of my motor vehicles did.

I guess MA is an outlier.

gamestalker
May 29, 2012, 07:47 PM
About 25 yrs. ago time life printed similar statistics that only displayed a number, leaving out the circumstances. The only thing wrong with these type of stats is that they don't include the reason for the gun related deaths, or the automobile related ones for that matter. Stats can be manipulated to imply anything, obviously! Self defense, accidental, and criminal perpetuated deaths by use of a firearm are all very different in perception and reality. How many of the automobile related deaths were caused by impaired drivers or someone being behind the wheel illegally?

These type of statistics are worthless and nothing more than a bunch of BS. Take a look at the FBI's list of gun related stats. They have them boken down into circumstancial cause. Such as states that don't restrict it's residents from defending their selves with deadly force, have an average of more than 30% lower violent crime, than states that don't allow one to defend their life and property, per capita.
GS

wacki
May 30, 2012, 12:57 AM
Times are tough and lots of folks are taking that permanent self checkout line.

Eliminate the war on drugs and I'll bet the number drops off precipitously

I personally won't touch anything harder than Italian wine, but there are some pretty potent arguments for legalizing and regulating the hard stuff.

NMPOPS
May 30, 2012, 02:23 AM
Times are tough and lots of folks are taking that permanent self checkout line.

Eliminate suicides and I'll bet the number drops off precipitously
I totally agree and would seriously question any stats that come from VPC.

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