Is it just me, or...


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kb58
May 25, 2012, 11:22 PM
... is it "okay" to receive a gun you just bought and find that it's dirty? It speaks volumes to me about the seller, how he not only didn't care enough to clean it when it sold, but also that it he was apparently okay with putting obviously dirty firearms in his safe.

Oh well, in the overall scheme of things it's not a big deal; I just scratch my head, wondering why some people feel that's okay to do.

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Skribs
May 25, 2012, 11:28 PM
Some people don't clean their firearms as often as I do (every range trip). If it still works, then it still works.

kb58
May 25, 2012, 11:30 PM
Yeah I get that, I guess I somehow thought that it would be a sign of mutual... what? respect? to at least clean the darn thing before selling it. Kind of like cleaning a car before selling it, but I guess in these days of Interweb anonimity, our standards have slipped because we know that the seller will never meet us face-to-face. Said another way, I suspect the seller would have cleaned it if selling it at a gun show...

What's that saying, "Integrity: doing the right thing even when you know that no one's watching."

TimboKhan
May 25, 2012, 11:38 PM
Honestly? I don't clean my guns all that often. If they are noticeably dirty that's one thing, but I don't sweat it every range trip.

Some of it is laziness, but mostly it's just a case of knowing that it just isn't necessary for function or accuracy to scrub them after every trip. One time as an experiment, I shot my P90 without cleaning it well into a couple thousand rounds over the course of a couple of years. It functioned exactly the same that whole time, and it looked just fine.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

kb58
May 25, 2012, 11:50 PM
Well to be honest, neither do I. I guess I somehow got it in my head that something that's being sold should be cleaned before it's shipped. What was I thinking....

firesky101
May 25, 2012, 11:55 PM
Dirty means different things to different people. Some are ok with a little grime, and think that is how a gun should look.

JSpear
May 26, 2012, 12:09 AM
I like my guns clean, I clean them after every range trip, I don't order guns off line, so that I can't say, but I love when a seller has a dirty gun in a face to face, its gotten me a small price drop a couple of times, never that much but money is money!:D

MyGreenGuns
May 26, 2012, 12:11 AM
Took some new people shooting. We get back to the house and the guy starts shoving a cleaning brush in thru the muzzle of his pistol.

"Whoa! What are you doin?"

He told me it was a family gun and he wanted to clean it before he took it back. I told him its better to clean from the chamber side.

He didnt know how to take it apart, so we looked it up online. As we took it apart, he told me his uncle gave it to his dad, his dad lent it to him.

The breakdown hit a snag when the slide wouldnt come off. After fiddling with it for a bit, it finally gave.

The slide and slide rails were bare metal, covered in new and old shavings. TONS of carbon buildup all over the internals. Not a spot of oil anywhere. I'm surprised it even functioned.

Apparently, he was the first person in 14 years to disassemble the gun. I found this out later when he asked his dad and uncle how often they cleaned it.

He told me his dad had a huge collection of firearms, I wondered if they all looked like this one.

Fishslayer
May 26, 2012, 01:15 AM
I generally shop the consignment cases. Amazing how dirty some of those are.

I bought a S&W M66 no dash that had been a LEO gun. The thing was so dirty it actually tightened up noticably after cleaning.

MyGreenGuns
May 26, 2012, 01:19 AM
One time as an experiment, I shot my P90 without cleaning it well into a couple thousand rounds over the course of a couple of years. It functioned exactly the same that whole time, and it looked just fine.
My 10/22 is currently doing this experiment, it will be cleaned when it jams for the first time (ever).

Skribs
May 26, 2012, 01:19 AM
I guess I should say I'm with you OP, it should be cleaned before selling it. But some people don't keep em clean 100%.

Timbo, I clean mine every range trip because I don't get to the range that often. So they're due for a cleaning for lint and crud and new lubricants by the time I go.

ETA: I have gotten lazy though. Instead of breaking my shotguns down when I take them, I'll just run a bore snake through the barrel and rub the chamber with a rag.

TimboKhan
May 26, 2012, 01:25 AM
Well, I do clean them before selling them, and when I shoot corrosive ammo I have been known to run a rod down at the range.

For whatever it's worth, my 10/22 hasn't been cleaned in like 30 years and bazillions of rounds. It functions perfectly, though I have had to degrease some magazines.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

MyGreenGuns
May 26, 2012, 01:31 AM
my 10/22 hasn't been cleaned in like 30 years and bazillions of rounds
:what: Ok, I'll change it to "first jam or a year, whichever comes first." I dont know if I could wait 30 years to clean it, I'm a bit OCD about cleaning.

hemiram
May 26, 2012, 02:00 AM
Most of my guns were bought on gun auctions, and almost all of them came at least somewhat dirty. Some were amazingly bad. The worst of them all was a Dan Wesson Model 15 that was full of a mix of burned and unburned powder that had mixed with a lot of oil and turned into a sort of sludge. The gun still functioned, barely. A good cleaning and it was back to being nice and smooth. I got it cheap, so I didn't mind it being dirty.

B!ngo
May 26, 2012, 02:08 AM
If it's a F2F sale, and the gun is particularly dirty, you could just say 'no thanks'. To me a dirty gun is a sign that ranges from 'just didn't care to clean it' to misuse and other problems could be present.
If it's an internet sale, yea, that's the risk with the internet.
The one time I sold a gun, I scrubbed it shinier than I do for myself. Just seems like the right thing to do.
B

Ignition Override
May 26, 2012, 02:14 AM
My guns haven't been manufactured for decades (mostly from WW2-1955), and other than the Norinco SKS, the bores/actions are cleaned either each time or within a week.

Why not preserve Garands, Enfields and other historic examples as well as we can, no matter who might have carried or trained with them? Many of my heroes fought to their death with these types. In "D Day" by S. Ambrose, he mentions one 82nd (?) trooper who died alone (there were many others), found with his gun's stock broken apart, but took about nine enemy soldiers with him.

If I have time to watch tv or surf the Internut, then there is time to clean the bore/bolt for three minutes, and can wipe the oil or gun grease on a few Kleenex or extra patches before grabbing the remote control.

dubya450
May 26, 2012, 02:30 AM
I actually enjoy taking down and cleaning my guns after i use them. I did notice that a LGS/range here puts rental guns up for sale after a few hundred rounds and they never clean them between rentals or before they go in the for sale case. If it had been cleaned up I would have bought a m&p 360 they had but couldn't tell if it had marks and scuffs on it or if it was just that dirty, but they did say it had under 100 rounds through it. Weather that was true or not who knows but the guys there are pretty good and honest as far as i know.

This thread also reminds me of the time a few years ago i found a guy on the internet who was willing to trade his 2002 honda crotch rocket for my 2006 honda 450 dirtbike. I drove only 30 min to meet him and he drove over 4 hours (his choice) so we were able to take a look at eachothers bikes and decide if we want to trade. I took 2 hours cleaning every crevice I could get to on my bike better than I usually do and when i took a look at his, besides the fact it was in way worse shape than he had me believe, he didn't even clean the years of grime, grease and dirt off it. Didn't even try to make it look decent. Needless to say i decided to keep my dirtbike and he got mad of course so i had to explain to him that although I'm young I'm not stupid and don't appreciate being lied to about what was done to the bike and its maintenance (or lack thereof) and that he may have better luck with someone else if he actually washed the jalopy.

JimStC
May 26, 2012, 07:02 AM
What's that saying, "Integrity: doing the right thing even when you know that no one's watching."

KB, you answered your question. It is an observation that applies to many facets of our lives. You just got to experience it in a gun sale. I agree that it allows you to understand an element of the character of the seller.....

Sav .250
May 26, 2012, 07:17 AM
Some guys think dirtier the better . Just read posts about cleaning.

jmr40
May 26, 2012, 07:28 AM
Most rifles don't shoot nearly as accurately with a clean barrel. I my wipe off the exterior and clean crud from the action area, but never touch the barrel until accuracy starts to fall off. Once clean I need to fire 20-30 rounds through the barrel before I get it back to peak accuracy. It is usually good for 200-300 rounds before it needs to be cleaned again.

beatledog7
May 26, 2012, 07:37 AM
Over cleaning wastes time and materials. Clean them when they show signs of needing it, which could be many things.

If I were selling one, I'd sell it as is, but I'd have cleaning supplies available. That way the buyer can examine the gun in as offered condition and can then see the bore clean.

Ever buy what you think is a very "clean" used car and discover paint issues the first time you wash it?

Gunnerboy
May 26, 2012, 07:40 AM
I clean em all once a month regardless except my 10/22 and my sks

JimStC
May 26, 2012, 07:59 AM
JMR,
Interesting comment, not my experience though. My AR's will shoot the same dirty as clean. My groups open up significantly when I shoot my bolt action rifles dirty. I normally try to clean them after each shooting.
I understand that the OP's question/comment was not about our firearms cleaning habits, but rather if we would sell/buy a dirty gun. Sorry for the thread drift.

CountryUgly
May 26, 2012, 08:38 AM
You would probably hate trading with me then. I have a habit of stopping on the way to trade or sell a gun for one last goodbye shoot. Sure I give up a dirty gun but at least I can gurantee function of the weapon at the time of selling it. The bad part of doing this is it reminds me of how much I liked to shoot the gun and makes me consider calling the deal off. It's yet to happen but I've come close a time or two. Buying off the used rack at my LGS can be as dirty as it gets. The guy that owns the place doesn't inspect, clean or repair any of the used stuff. It goes straight to the rack as soon as the paper work is done and you buy them just like they came in. The upside is his prices reflect his practice and the rare occasion I've bought a busted gun he has told me to just go pick out another and has never charged a price difference even when I picked up an obiviously higher priced gun. All in all dirty can mean a deal on a gun that works well once in a while.

303tom
May 26, 2012, 09:18 AM
... is it "okay" to receive a gun you just bought and find that it's dirty? It speaks volumes to me about the seller, how he not only didn't care enough to clean it when it sold, but also that it he was apparently okay with putting obviously dirty firearms in his safe.

Oh well, in the overall scheme of things it's not a big deal; I just scratch my head, wondering why some people feel that's okay to do.
It`s just you.................LOL

kimbershot
May 26, 2012, 09:22 AM
it's all about hygiene--that's why they invented toilet paper.:uhoh:

newfalguy101
May 26, 2012, 09:30 AM
... is it "okay" to receive a gun you just bought and find that it's dirty? It speaks volumes to me about the seller, how he not only didn't care enough to clean it when it sold, but also that it he was apparently okay with putting obviously dirty firearms in his safe.

Oh well, in the overall scheme of things it's not a big deal; I just scratch my head, wondering why some people feel that's okay to do.
First of all define "dirty"

2nd, it largely depends on exactly who the seller is, a big dealer who handles hundreds of guns or an individual who is selling one or two??

I clean my personal guns, but, the guns I buy for re-sale, get sold as I buy em.

doc2rn
May 26, 2012, 09:41 AM
A lot of guys take it out the day before and shoot off the excess ammo for that particular weapon, especially if its an odd caliber like 222 swift or some such.

Ignition Override
May 26, 2012, 01:24 PM
But can people correctly evaluate a dirty bore's actual condition, even with a bore light?

Not having such a skill, it seems really strange that sellers expect us to trust what they say at a gun show. I'm talking about more than just light dust in the bore.

kb58
May 26, 2012, 02:35 PM
First of all define "dirty"
Like the owner didn't even bother to spray degreaser on the works or even wipe it with a oily rag. I can do that of course but it does say something that the person didn't mind passing on something dirty.

If you bought a car (sight-unseen) that turned out to be filthy, what would that say? OTOH, if a seller brings a filthy firearm to a gun show to sell, he'll get what he deserves, leaving with it unsold, or getting bids half his asking price because it looks like crap. If nothing else, it shows that he doesn't care.

Ignition Override
May 26, 2012, 04:25 PM
It seems to me that if a bore in a gun show piece is too dirty/grungy to see any shine at all, and the rifling is very difficult to see, that gun is not ready to be on a table, or carried around.

This is why I carry a plastic cleaning rod and patches if I visit a show and have cash to spend on a gun.
If a potential seller refused to allow a swipe or two, then that would say volumes about his character, and I would warn my gun show buddies (also middle-aged, but quite astute with many milsurps) about him.
One of my buddies bought about fifteen milsurp rifles which are in excellent condition, a year ago, and he never sells.

ChCx2744
May 26, 2012, 10:02 PM
I, personally, think it should be a courtesy to clean the gun before you sell it to someone. I always clean the gun before I sell it. It will make the person want to buy it more, especially if you're at a gun show where people encounter it for the first time without any ads. But that's just me I guess.

skt239
May 26, 2012, 11:40 PM
Clean anything before you sell it. I Don't see where there is any room for an argument against common courtesy.

JSpear
May 27, 2012, 12:02 AM
Like I posted before dirty can save you on cash when buying. I don't sell guns, I keep all I buy, but I'm young, so that's probably why, but I do agree that those that can't take 15 minutes out of their day to clean what's being sold does say worlds to the over all way they treat their guns!

Nushif
May 27, 2012, 02:26 AM
I fail to see how it's a sign of "slipping standards" or "disrespectful."

Is it less than practical especially when someone wants to inspect them, sure, but drawing some kind of statement about the moral state of society or how someone feels about you from the condition of their weapon seems odd to me.

Ignition Override
May 27, 2012, 02:54 AM
Let me rephrase what was described earlier. I should not have generalized about everybody who sells things in a very casual manner. We all can forget things, have different priorities, or have stressful lives.

My perspective is Not that a very dirty bore always means that a person is untrustworthy. But some people could be, by creating a situation where a potential buyer (who can't find/buy a cleaning rod and patches) needs to know whether the bore is in good condition, or better, and finds it necessary to trust a seller's comments.

When I bought my six Enfield #4s and #5s, they all had clean bores with sometimes a little dust, but I could see a fair bit of shine and clear rifling, using just the so-so show hall ceiling lights (Ft. Worth, Memphis or Atlanta) to reflect light in the bores.
At GB and "Joesalter.com", you can read feedback about sellers, but at a show outside your area, people are total strangers.

mljdeckard
May 27, 2012, 02:57 AM
Depends on the gun. If I look at a hammered 10/22 in a pawn shop, I don't expect it to be squeaky clean.

Look at it this way. A pawn shop owner has a finite amount of time. He has to decide if the time used to meticulously clean every gun that comes through the door is an investment that will be returned in kind. Most of the time.....I doubt it.

Bubbles
May 27, 2012, 09:37 AM
We tell consignors that if the gun is dirty, we will clean it before taking pictures and advertising it, and the fee to do so will be deducted from the amount that he gets in addition to our regular consignment fee. So far we've only had to clean one.

Serenity
May 27, 2012, 10:42 AM
I wouldn't show a house, car, horse, or anything else to a prospective buyer without cleaning it. But if I did, and they could inspect it personally, it would be on them whether to buy it or not.

But a sight-unseen sale, like on the internet, is a lot different. I can't fathom why someone would send a dirty Anything to a stranger. It's just rude. I guess the "as-is" clause in most ads covers your ass legally, but rights don't excuse good manners.

Lex Luthier
May 27, 2012, 10:44 AM
Picky is as picky does.

Some folks are just naturally more squared away than others.

kb58
May 27, 2012, 12:29 PM
... but drawing some kind of statement about the moral state of society or how someone feels about you...
No, it's a statement about how they feel about their equipment.

kb58
May 27, 2012, 12:33 PM
...A pawn shop owner has a finite amount of time. He has to decide if the time used to meticulously clean every gun that comes through the door is an investment that will be returned in kind.
I guess I should have been more clear. I'm talking about buying a firearm directly from the previous owner - the one who fired it last. Now in the case of buying from a reseller, if they want to be lazy and sell dirty stuff that's entirely up to them. If people don't buy it, maybe there's a message there, or if they still don't care, they can just wait until eventually a customer comes in that either doesn't check or doesn't care. If I saw a dirty firearm in a shop I'd use that for negotiating the price down, in other words, use the filth against them. If they're okay with the dirt they won't mind me making use of it...

Nushif
May 27, 2012, 02:38 PM
Yeah I get that, I guess I somehow thought that it would be a sign of mutual... what? respect? to at least clean the darn thing before selling it. Kind of like cleaning a car before selling it, but I guess in these days of Interweb anonimity, our standards have slipped because we know that the seller will never meet us face-to-face. Said another way, I suspect the seller would have cleaned it if selling it at a gun show...

What's that saying, "Integrity: doing the right thing even when you know that no one's watching."

No, it's a statement about how they feel about their equipment.

Looks like a character judgement to me.

WardenWolf
May 27, 2012, 02:43 PM
I sold my father's Winchester Model 70 in .225 Winchester a few years ago. I was about to pack it up to ship it when I decided to look down the barrel and realized it hadn't been cleaned before my father put it away, all those years ago. I quickly pulled out my .22 boresnake and solvent and gave it a few runthroughs.

Warp
May 27, 2012, 03:41 PM
... is it "okay" to receive a gun you just bought and find that it's dirty? It speaks volumes to me about the seller, how he not only didn't care enough to clean it when it sold, but also that it he was apparently okay with putting obviously dirty firearms in his safe.

Oh well, in the overall scheme of things it's not a big deal; I just scratch my head, wondering why some people feel that's okay to do.

Totally fine by me.

But then again who is to say that he has a safe, and that the gun was in it?

Owen Sparks
May 27, 2012, 05:51 PM
Myths and legends die hard. Guns fired with modern non-corrosive ammo can safely stay dirty for long periods of time if kept in a climate controled enviroment like your home. Like most myths and ledgends, the myth of the dirty gun rusting is based on something that used to be true. There was a time back in the days of black powder and corrosive primers that immediat cleaning was manditory. The old saying was "Never let the sun set on a dirty gun" as they could literaly start to rust over night. That no longer applies yet some people act as if it still does. I clean my guns when they need it and not before. That being said, if I want to trade something, gun, car, boat or whatever I clean it up first as that usually makes it more attractive to a potential buyer.

kb58
May 27, 2012, 08:50 PM
Looks like a character judgement to me.
If someone you knew didn't take care of firearms and didn't care if they were dirty when he sold them, would you buy a car from him? When would you judge that he'd last changed the oil? People's habits do tell a lot about them.

Warp
May 27, 2012, 10:50 PM
If someone you knew didn't take care of firearms and didn't care if they were dirty when he sold them, would you buy a car from him? When would you judge that he'd last changed the oil? People's habits do tell a lot about them.

A gun doesn't necessarily need to be cleaned every time you shoot it just like a car's oil doesn't necessarily need to be changed every time you drive it.

Hossfly68
May 27, 2012, 11:35 PM
I'd be upset about buying a used gun that was filthy, but only because I'd wonder if it had been taken care of. As it is, the first thing I do with a new gun is field strip it and clean it until it shines. Helps me get to know it and also ensures that I haven't missed anything that might be wrong with it. I have been known to talk to the gun as I cleaned it. That's not too weird is it?

MyGreenGuns
May 27, 2012, 11:50 PM
If I saw a dirty firearm in a shop I'd use that for negotiating the price down, in other words, use the filth against them. If they're okay with the dirt they won't mind me making use of it...
Good point! I've haggled down car purchases because it was dirty.

tomrkba
May 28, 2012, 12:23 AM
Why didn't you inspect the gun prior to purchase?

I never purchase a used gun if it's dirty unless there is some special circumstance (rare, known owner, etc).

Ignition Override
May 28, 2012, 01:41 AM
Some of us aren't skilled marksmen, and might never be.
I can accept a milsurp with dings and a dark wooden stock.

Wardenwolf probably brought some shine to that rifle bore in less time than we need to drink half a bottle of beer.
Some of us only want to Be Able to see a clean bore with good rifling Before we buy it, a matching bolt, but nothing sporterized.
Maybe this is an unreasonable perspective when attending a gun show......

JohnKSa
May 28, 2012, 01:50 AM
I bought one used gun that appeared to be fairly clean at first inspection. When I really started cleaning it, I found out that whatever had been used to "clean" the gun had left a sticky varnish-like residue on everything. I say "clean" because there was also a good deal of dirt, including some small leaf fragments, inside the gun.

However, I can't complain too much. The gun functioned perfectly and the price was certainly right.

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