You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun Mythbusting VIDEO

It's surprising how often I hear people say that the shotgun is the best home defense weapon because...."you don't have to aim it, just point and shoot." This video explains and shows why that is ridiculous, a bit of shotgun mythbusting, if you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsN2AugB5pw

And the pistol grip with no stock is stupid to shoot from the hip.

Ha.

I have tried that at 3-gun events, and have video proof that not aiming gets me nowhere. Well, I do get a bunch of cat calls from the peanut gallery.

I don't know about not aiming, but if you put your head on the stock with a proper fit gun, it will shoot where you look/point. I shot competition clay targets for several years when I was younger like this. Maybe thats what some people mean by you dont have to aim.

Sir, with respect, may I please say that shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot is a much different thing than using .00 against a home intruder.

Anyone who intends to use their shotgun in a home defense situation needs to spend a lot of time at the range practicing with the defense load they intend to use.

Sir, with respect, may I please say that shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot is a much different thing than using .00 against a home intruder.

Anyone who intends to use their shotgun in a home defense situation needs to spend a lot of time at the range practicing with the defense load they intend to use.
Absolutely, and don't expect bird shot to get the job done. What I think quite a few overlook is where your load will pattern. So if you think that you are honky dory to just stick the muzzle somewhere in the direction and get a direct hit .. think again. It's better to get to the range and figure out FIRST just at what distance/how close your buckshot will spread (if at all in your HD situation)

Sir, with respect, may I please say that shooting at clay pigeons with bird shot is a much different thing than using .00 against a home intruder.

Anyone who intends to use their shotgun in a home defense situation needs to spend a lot of time at the range practicing with the defense load they intend to use.
I have to disagree skills transfer from skeet field to SD, if you're having trouble hitting without aiming get on the clays course and pratice.

I'm not sure of the point that youtube warrior is trying to make other than patterns and range and I think some Definition of aim and point is needed

A shotgun is a close range tool best suited for indoors home defense. So, the 70' example is kind of meaningless. Indoors, a bad guy trying to kill you most likely while moving (you will probably be moving too). A shotgun is best used POINT SHOOTING. You will be fixated on the threat and point shoot. You can point shoot a shotgun accurately at room distances faster than traditional aiming and accurately enough to get the job done which is, incapacitate your attacker before he incapacitates you.

Point shooting, not aiming for a shotgun.

and I think some Definition of aim and point is needed

Absolutely!

Everything said so far is actually worth consideration, IMHO. Semantics can be a pain in the butt... especially in a forum on the net discussing these topics :banghead:

Personally, if I say that I "point" a shotgun (and I actually did just say that in a different thread recently), then I'm making a distinction of only using the bead or front sight. If I say I'm "aiming", then I'm lining up both front and rear sights. Either way, I'm forming a "sight picture".

I agree wholeheartedly with what I believe the OP's assertion is here though. I can "thrust" a shotgun in the general direction of my intended target and hit it; but I would only do that if my intended target was the broad side of a barn from a few yards away.

For those who would say "well, the BG in an HD scenario may only be a few yards away"... they're Not the same size as the broad side of a barn either :)

If you don't aim, same as with a handgun, chances are you will miss, unless you are really good at point shooting .. and that takes practice at the range .. and not at 70'.

Lol....
I was just recently involved in another thread where I too say you must "aim" a shotgun.
But evidently, I'm a down-talking, narrow-minded and insulting person for stating the obvious.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif


huntsman.....back at ya brother.
No disrespect intended here at all....but....

I have hunted off and on my whole life.
I also spent 20 years in the army and just retired in 2009.
What I can tell you is this:
Not only is there a difference between shooting clays and combat...
But the difference itself is "HUGE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only are the clays not shooting back at you like in a possible HD situation...
But also, I don't know a single "sane" person who would depend on skeet loads to protect the very lives of their adored loved ones, nor themselves either.
It's absolutely foolish at best, and completely detrimental at worst.

Buckshot patterns in a completely different manner.
I don't care if you can hit 10 out of 10 clays 100 times in a row with trap/skeet/clay loads.
Do it with buckshot, and then we will have something to discuss about transferable skills.
;)

Shotguns are not rifles. They are tools for room distance type situations. You can EASILY point shoot a shotgun under these circumstances.

A shotgun is a close range tool best suited for indoors home defense. So, the 70' example is kind of meaningless. Indoors, a bad guy trying to kill you most likely while moving (you will probably be moving too). A shotgun is best used POINT SHOOTING. You will be fixated on the threat and point shoot. You can point shoot a shotgun accurately at room distances faster than traditional aiming and accurately enough to get the job done which is, incapacitate your attacker before he incapacitates you.

Point shooting, not aiming for a shotgun.


There are variables here for certain.
For example...at "room" distances, I can point shoot a handgun too.
But I can miss.
With a shotgun at "room" distances...the shot barely spreads at all, and I can miss with that too just as easily.
Don't believe me?
Go pattern your shotgun at 15 feet...or average room distances.
:rolleyes:

Most rooms in a home would be a 20 ft or less shooting solution.

I agree with OldGuy870. A proper fitting shotgun used by a shooter who knows how to use it and practices with it doesn't having an "aiming" problem. The training will take care of the shooter.

None of my shotguns have a rear sight to line up and aim with in the first place. However, I do hit what I shoot with regular accuracy at much greater distances than 20 feet.

I think sometimes this whole subject has more to do with semantics than a real problem. I see the same issue when people are discussing recoil or "felt" recoil. Ease up folks. Spend more time shooting and less arguing. In a few decades none of us will care one way or the other.

I think the term "point shooting" is undervaluing a very good shotgun technique that works for clay targets and HD. With practice and a good fitting gun, the gun can be made to shoot where the shooter is looking using target focus and hand eye coordination. It takes practice but I think most serious clay target shooters will tell you that the skills are transferable. Don't get me wrong I know low light conditions and adrenalene will play a big part in a HD situation, but I think great hand eye coordination and target focus will work better than lining up sights or beads. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do this guys, just personal preference.

I agree with the semantics being a problem here.
I mean, at 20ft or less, I can "point shoot" any and every single weapon I own.
I'm not debating that part at all really.
Going from "point shooting" to "aiming" has a LOT to do with "distance" as much as anything else.
Even with a shotgun, I definately "aim" at farther targets when firing slugs just as an example.
Same with buckshot too because it spreads so wide.

But .. at what distance will it spread? And you can assume that your target will be moving, not standing still.

I took a four day class and we did a lot of shooting at steel torso size targets at 25 and 35 yards with 00 buck. Many would argue that is a very sweet distance for a shotgun. On day four they gave a test to add some stress to the training. Mind younfirnthe past four days we had been shooting and even under timed conditions and we were engaging anywhere from one to four targets. I was amazed at how easy it is to miss at this distance. This was my third shotgun class and I'm pretty good with it. Toss in some simulated stress and things really get much more difficult.

Thanks bro for supporting my point, good stuff.

But .. at what distance will it spread? And you can assume that your target will be moving, not standing still.


What distance will it spread and how much?
Depends on your gun and your load.
This where your highly endorsed suggestion of range time and practice comes in.
You MUST know your gun "and" your loads.

That is what I was getting at. How many will do just that before SHTF situation will happen to KNOW for certain where/what distance when the spread will occur? Too many will assume and possibly .. Oops it didn't pattern where they thought it would.

20 gauge tactical 00 by Paraklese Technologies

http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=20%2EGA%2E00%2E234%2E25

I took a four day class and we did a lot of shooting at steel torso size targets at 25 and 35 yards with 00 buck. Many would argue that is a very sweet distance for a shotgun. On day four they gave a test to add some stress to the training. Mind younfirnthe past four days we had been shooting and even under timed conditions and we were engaging anywhere from one to four targets. I was amazed at how easy it is to miss at this distance. This was my third shotgun class and I'm pretty good with it. Toss in some simulated stress and things really get much more difficult.
Good for you and thanks for sharing your training experience. I suspect there will be a lot more misses in a SHTF with shotgunners thinking just pointing in the direction will get the job done.

i tend to think that saying was fostered from short bbl shotguns with open chokes firing down a 30 foot hallway. pointing it in the center will cover quite a bit of area.

my mossy 88 with 18.5" bbl and 00 buck with pattern about 1.5 feet at 10 yards.

At a distance the length or width of a room, buckshot, even from a cylinder bore, will group the pellets in about the size of a coffee cup. You very definitely need to aim the shotgun somehow. And point shooting at clays or birds, even though you may not focus on the front sight, is still aiming it.

Point shooting is a skill that must be learned and can be done with either a shotgun or a single projectile firearm. But it takes a lot of practice to be effective and confident.

Thanks for the good discussion, guys, and I agree that pointing/aiming...it's all being intentional about where the shot is going, not simply pulling the trigger from the hip, spraying and praying.

back in the day of muzzle-loaders, the shotgun had a larger pattern being controlled by the length of the barrel and some choking.In the advent of the shot-cup that contains the pellets, the spread was closed up and a pattern was created.Some law enforcement shotguns go as far as having a muzzle attachment that can alter the spread of their pattern vertically or horizontally.
Statistically most confrontations occur within 6 feet 75% of the time and within 21 feet 85% of the time. With shotgun shells ,the spread at those distances is minimal.
As far as the matter of birdshot ,I've personally seen numerous persons shot at that distance and they didn't survive .It was as if they were shot with a powdered slug,the majority of time the shot-cup was found inside of the wound.

i tend to think that saying was fostered from short bbl shotguns with open chokes firing down a 30 foot hallway. pointing it in the center will cover quite a bit of area.

my mossy 88 with 18.5" bbl and 00 buck with pattern about 1.5 feet at 10 yards.
Have you checked for sure?

back in the day of muzzle-loaders, the shotgun had a larger pattern being controlled by the length of the barrel and some choking.In the advent of the shot-cup that contains the pellets, the spread was closed up and a pattern was created.Some law enforcement shotguns go as far as having a muzzle attachment that can alter the spread of their pattern vertically or horizontally.
Statistically most confrontations occur within 6 feet 75% of the time and within 21 feet 85% of the time. With shotgun shells ,the spread at those distances is minimal.
As far as the matter of birdshot ,I've personally seen numerous persons shot at that distance and they didn't survive .It was as if they were shot with a powdered slug,the majority of time the shot-cup was found inside of the wound.

That sounds to a bit of a stretch. I would NEVER use bird shot for HD. Only buck or slug.

Have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds? ;)


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You mean the movie? lol Of course, when it first aired back in the 60's

Kris, I'm not advocating using birdshot for personal defense, but spent part of my career as a LEO investigator covering shooting incidents in a prominent city in the northeast US.
Most of the shotguns used were sawed off single barrel types, and were stolen.

Quick question to clarify...For those who are saying that you must aim a shotgun in a home defense situation, am I reading you properly that you don't believe you can make good hits from 3-7 yards (in home distances) by simply pulling a shotgun up to your shoulder and pointing the barrel at your intruder without even taking a sight picture?

I don't shoot a lot of shotgun, so I'm not going to boldly stand and proclaim anything, but I know that I can do said activity from 3-5 yards with a handgun that's much smaller and easier to tweak the angle of and throw the shot off. I would think that anybody who spends much time shooting a long gun (rifle or shotgun - length of gun is the issue, not the spread) would be able to pull off hits at this distance. Note: I'm not talking about hip shooting here.

*moving target* aiming under stress = more misses than you would expect. Throw in the possibility of low light/no light ...

If you realistically expect bad guys at 25-35 yards, you need to choose a rifle not a shotgun. In the situation a shotgun should be used in, it will be 3-5 yards. It you can't point a shotgun at a man sized target 3-5 yards away and get hits, you deserve to die so your poor-shooting genes are not spread to the rest of society.

Have you checked for sure?

of course not, i pulled those numbers out of midair. what do you think?

As far as patterns,I've fired my share of scatterguns and have learned each gun is a bit different. Shotguns can be finicky of what shells it likes. I've shot consecutively serial numbered shotguns that shot different patterns with shells out of the same box. A serious shotgunner will try various loads and find what works for their shotgun.
I've also found that the different brands of shells will pattern different due to their loading and shotcup construction.
The only way to get proficient is to get out there and shoot!!!!!!!!

Lol....
I was just recently involved in another thread where I too say you must "aim" a shotgun.
But evidently, I'm a down-talking, narrow-minded and insulting person for stating the obvious.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/smilies/b53ddb2d.gif


huntsman.....back at ya brother.
No disrespect intended here at all....but....

I have hunted off and on my whole life.
I also spent 20 years in the army and just retired in 2009.
What I can tell you is this:
Not only is there a difference between shooting clays and combat...
But the difference itself is "HUGE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only are the clays not shooting back at you like in a possible HD situation...
But also, I don't know a single "sane" person who would depend on skeet loads to protect the very lives of their adored loved ones, nor themselves either.
It's absolutely foolish at best, and completely detrimental at worst.

Buckshot patterns in a completely different manner.
I don't care if you can hit 10 out of 10 clays 100 times in a row with trap/skeet/clay loads.
Do it with buckshot, and then we will have something to discuss about transferable skills.
;)
Read this and take it to heart. What I am getting at.

I took a four day class and we did a lot of shooting at steel torso size targets at 25 and 35 yards with 00 buck. Many would argue that is a very sweet distance for a shotgun. On day four they gave a test to add some stress to the training. Mind younfirnthe past four days we had been shooting and even under timed conditions and we were engaging anywhere from one to four targets. I was amazed at how easy it is to miss at this distance. This was my third shotgun class and I'm pretty good with it. Toss in some simulated stress and things really get much more difficult.
And this ...

I have been patterning different buckshot loads for going on 16 years in private indoor range. I have a chopped (but still legal) 20 gauge Ithica Featherweight that won't consistently keep all of the pellets from most manufacturers on a B-27 target at 50'. Then also have a chopped 12 gauge that, with Federal's Flight Control wad, puts all 9 pellets into a 4" group at 50feet. Buddy's 18" barrel Mossberg with supposedly same "cylinder" barrel, puts that same load (including the shotcup) at the same distance into a 2" hole.

And having hunted with 'em for pushing 50 years now, I'm in the camp that believes that, yes, point shooting skills aquired at fast-movers (whether clays, quail, jack rabbits or feral hogs) are indeed transferrable to self defense.

Bottom line though: Many variables with shotguns and loads, but the only way to know for sure is to get out and shoot 'em!

A properly fitted shotgun will hit right where you are looking. I won a tactical shotgun match once and did not realize that my Hi-Viz front sight had come off until someone found it picking up empty shells afterward.

I’m an instinctive shooter and it works, from birds to deer and bipedal targets as well I’d think, buck and bird shot or slugs you can shoot it all with proper gun fit just let the onboard computer do it’s thing.

As far as shot spread aiding hit probability goes, I've always found that "up close", I don't need it anyway, it's only as the distance increases is it likely to make a big difference, and even then more in the way of catching a more difficult target that's moving and/or mostly behind cover.

I've never understood the attitude of "it doesn't spread much up close, so what's the point?"

I guess we need three definitions, then. If "aim" is using a front and rear sight, "point" is using a good fit and a front sight, what is it called when you use no sights and just put the muzzle in the general direction of the target?

As to this video, I don't think it really answered the myth it set out to. There are numerous videos out there already showing the spread of 00B and what it means. What SHOULD be done is the difference between aiming and just guessing.

Skribs, that's a very good point, I do a "with/without" aiming video as a "Part Two" appreciate your input.

But, for the purpose of this video, I wanted to demonstrate how a 00 buck blast patterns, to demonstrate that it is a really tight group and needs aiming, not just "let's see how this goes..." blasting from the hip, etc.

I always appreciate constructive criticism and intelligent feedback. Thanks!

Don't have to aim, just go out and do some slug work and you will find out you do have to aim.

A properly fitted shotgun will hit right where you are looking. I won a tactical shotgun match once and did not realize that my Hi-Viz front sight had come off until someone found it picking up empty shells afterward.

I know that a few national/international level competitive trap shooters completely remove their beads and just shoot based off of the ramp. I always preferred the beads though. I don't look at them when I'm shooting, but they provide a good reference point when you're mounting the gun.

I'm of the opinion that rifle/pistol shooting and shotgun shooting are just fundamentally different. Rifle and pistols, you're lining up sights to intersect with one point on the target. But with shotguns (at least the technique I and the vast majority of competitive shooters I've shot with use) you get on the gun, line up the sights, and then look over the sights and focus on the target. Its not really aiming because you're not looking at sights while shooting, but its not point shooting either because you are actively tracking the targets. The shot goes where you are looking, not where a bead/front sight would be (which is why comb height is so important).

I'm not sure where I heard it (could have very likely been on here somewhere) but I've always thought this quote was a good summary of the topic:

"Of course you have to aim it! Its a shotgun, not a claymore on a stick!" :D

I'd still say there's a difference between using a perfect fit and looking where you're shooting vs. just guess-and-click.

"Not a claymore on a stick."

That's a keeper.

I've been shooting a shotgun every hunting season for the last 50 years on ducks, doves, and geese, mostly. A few rabbits when I was younger. NONE of my shotguns have sights and one doesn't even have a bead. I figure if I can go 1 for 2 on DOVES, I am not going to have a problem on a person across the room. :rolleyes: I don't know how much I could "practice" on stationary targets with 00 and get any better with my shotguns. Hitting a bird is much more a function of fit and feel with the firearm and skill through repetition by the shooter than is shooting at a stationary target with rifle sights. Any IDIOT can hit a stationary target at 10 yards with a shotgun with aimed fire. If that stationary target is ducking for cover, it becomes more difficult. Jump a rabbit at 10 yards and hit him. Now, do that with a .22 rifle. I've done that, too, but I don't hit 'em with as much regularity as with a shotgun. But, either is much more a point shooting thing. You don't have time to aim. But, in effect, you ARE aiming, just not using sights. You shoot where you look. But, fit of the gun is very important. You don't do that from the hip, you do it from the shoulder looking down the rib. That is kinda like aiming, but you don't use sights.

Clays is better practice than any stationary targets with a shotgun IMHO.

Any IDIOT can post what you just put on here. Congrats.

I hear the myth about not needing to aim a shotgun several times a day. Sometimes I will say something, but I hear it so often, I stay silent most of the time. Sometimes I will tell them that 00 buck across a room makes a "rat hole". All you have to do, is shoot some steel plates. You will quickly see that when you are 15 ft away, you can shoot one plate between two others and not hit the plates on the outside.

Don't have to aim, just go out and do some slug work and you will find out you do have to aim

Then you are using it like a rifle firing a single projectile at a stationary target - what are you hunting in NV with slugs? When I lived in Carson we used rifles for those situations and shotguns for clays, chukar, grouse and quail - and for those times, the shotguns were pointed, not aimed.

If you are sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to come to your food plot in a state where shotguns are mandatory, that is one thing, you are actually using a rifle more or less; otherwise if you aim, you miss

"Any IDIOT can post what you just put on here."

So you're saying you disagree with that point of view? What are you saying?

Nevermind, I figured it out after watching your video and reading the comments. Everybody is stupid except you.

John

http://www.shootwhereyoulook.com/

MCGunner, that's what I'm trying to get at, I guess. Maybe I should revise my previous definitions:

Aim: Using at least two sight planes on the firearm to line up the shot with the front sight and the target.
Shotgunner's Point: Using the fit of the firearm (and possibly one sight plane) to line up the shot with where you're looking and the target.
Layman's Point: Using the fact that the muzzle is in the general direction of the target and the "fact" that shotguns spread and create a cone-of-death to hit the target.

Shotgunner's Point, for the idea of "you don't have to aim a shotgun" is aiming the shotgun. You know exactly where the pellets are going.

Layman's Point, for the idea of "you don't have to aim a shotgun, just point" is the pointing that we're talking about.

My 2 cents from a previous post:

What seems to be overlooked is that we are discussing using the same basic tool in two entirely different applications.

As I've said in previous posts, I'm all about shooting moving clays by putting the shot pattern where they are going to be, rather then where they are. (B class Trapper and A class Skeeter) I focus on the bird and swing the gun. But when shooting slugs, the shotgun is a de-facto rifle that requires aiming. I don't point a slug loaded shotgun, except at contact distances.

Again, same basic tool, but entirely different methods of utilization.
__________________

Addendum: I also aim, not point when utilizing tight patterning 00 Buck.

As always, YMMV.

Good discussion, for the most part, thanks guys. Appreciate it.

This thread is just one personal attack away from closure.

Remember the rules we all agreed to and STICK TO THE ISSUES....