ATF regs are not clear to me: Need some help on a possible purchase.


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Gun Geezer
May 27, 2012, 08:27 AM
Given the ATF info below, is it legal to buy a shotgun from a person from another state (no FFL involved) if that person drives to my state to sell it to me? It would seem that would be a purchse "within the person's own state" and thus legal for me.

I don't want to take any chances.

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

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doc2rn
May 27, 2012, 08:33 AM
I believe it is legal if the transfer happens at a liscenced FFL in your state.

Gun Geezer
May 27, 2012, 08:41 AM
Doc2rn,

I agree. But my question is only about if no FFL involved.

The sale would occur in my state. So would that be legal without an FFL?

rromeo
May 27, 2012, 08:56 AM
If you two are not residents of the same state, you need an FFL. It can be in your state or his state (long guns only), but it has to go through an FFL. Thanks LBJ.

Bubbles
May 27, 2012, 09:33 AM
As has been pointed out, the issue is not where you and the seller happen to be standing, it's the residency of the buyer and the seller.

Since the seller is coming to you anyway, do the transfer at a local FFL.

Gun Geezer
May 27, 2012, 09:38 AM
Well, I don't like but that's about the conclusion I had come to.

Thanks.

303tom
May 27, 2012, 09:48 AM
The poster would not be committing a felony...........

Sales between individuals

Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun. An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a modern firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state. Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence. Likewise, antique firearms are exempt from these sections of the law in most states. (Antique firearms are defined as those manufactured pre-1899 by US federal law, or modern replicas thereof that do not use cartridges. State law definitions on antique firearms vary considerably from state to state.)

MedWheeler
May 27, 2012, 09:55 AM
303tom, in the hypothetical case the OP describes, the seller is not a resident of the same state as is the buyer.

Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun.

Scimmia
May 27, 2012, 10:08 AM
The poster would not be committing a felony...........

At the very least, the seller would be. The law is a bit unclear about whether the buyer would be as well. I'm looking at the itself law, not some FAQ. 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) states that it is illegal:

for any person ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State

It could easily be argued that the firearm was obtained out of state if the seller is delivering it from such.

forgottenson
May 27, 2012, 10:19 AM
wouldn't it be legal if they lived in connecting states? For a long gun that is......

Scimmia
May 27, 2012, 10:24 AM
wouldn't it be legal if they lived in connecting states? For a long gun that is......

No. The whole "connecting states" thing is state law, not federal law. Under federal law, you can buy a long gun in person from an FFL while out of state. Some states restrict this so that it only applies to "connecting states".

treg
May 27, 2012, 10:30 AM
Ya know, it might just be easier to repeal GCA68 than to live with it.

Yes, we must follow the law, but we sure seem groomed to believe "that's just the way it is".

forgottenson
May 27, 2012, 10:33 AM
OK, I wasn't for sure on that with a ftf

Carl N. Brown
May 27, 2012, 10:43 AM
I believe FTF transfer of used guns between non-FFL licensees must be between residents of the same state.

NavyLCDR
May 27, 2012, 10:48 AM
No. The whole "connecting states" thing is state law, not federal law. Under federal law, you can buy a long gun in person from an FFL while out of state. Some states restrict this so that it only applies to "connecting states".
The real story on that is that prior to 1986 the Federal Gun Control Act (of 1968) only allowed rifle/shotgun sales by FFLs to residents of their own states; or IF state law allowed it, to residents of contiguous states. The Federal law, prior to 1986, required the state to have a specific law on the books that declared the sales of rifles/shotguns to residents of contiguous states to be lawful, and that still only applied to sales by FFLs.

In 1986 the Federal Gun Control Act was amended to allow FFLs to sell rifles/shotguns to residents of any state, so long as the laws of both states (purchaser and FFL) were followed. There is no longer a requirement for contiguous states and no longer a requirement for specific state laws allowing the transactions. The only requirement is that there be no state laws that PROHIBIT the transactions.

Many states have never repealed their laws that ALLOWED contiguous state transactions that were required prior to 1986. However, most of those state laws prohibit nothing because the prohibition was contained in Federal law which was repealed in 1986. Since those state laws prohibit nothing, and are no longer required by the Federal Gun Control Act, they are completely meaningless.

Owen Sparks
May 27, 2012, 10:58 AM
is it lllegal to buy a shotgun from a person from another state, or is it only illegal to KNOWINGLY buy a shotgun from a person from another state?

Are you required to ask?

Even if you did ask how would you know if the seller was lying?

Scimmia
May 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
However, most of those state laws prohibit nothing because the prohibition was contained in Federal law which was repealed in 1986. Since those state laws prohibit nothing, and are no longer required by the Federal Gun Control Act, they are completely meaningless.

Great information, thank you! As my state doesn't have this law, I hadn't read into it in depth.

is it lllegal to buy a shotgun from a person from another state, or is it only illegal to KNOWINGLY buy a shotgun from a person from another state?

Are you required to ask?

Even if you did ask how would you know if the seller was lying?

For the seller atleast, it's "knows or has reasonable cause to believe". In this case, the seller is coming in from out of state, so that's pretty reasonable cause.

Owen Sparks
May 27, 2012, 11:37 AM
If the potential seller does not tell you and you do not ask,
then you would not 'know or have a reasonable cause to believe' that he was from out of state.

SaxonPig
May 27, 2012, 11:58 AM
There is no way to legally sell a gun to a resident of another state without transferring it through an FFL. And only rifles and shotguns may be sold by a dealer to a resident of another state. Never a handgun. That sale would require the gun be sent to an FFL in the buyer's home state for transfer.

I'm sure the criminals find all these laws a big impediment.

303tom
May 27, 2012, 01:39 PM
If the potential seller does not tell you and you do not ask,
then you would not 'know or have a reasonable cause to believe' that he was from out of state.
My meaning exactly............

oneounceload
May 27, 2012, 01:44 PM
If the potential seller does not tell you and you do not ask,
then you would not 'know or have a reasonable cause to believe' that he was from out of state.

Is it worth the felony charges, loss of all gun rights and a stay at the graybar hotel with your bunk buddy for a FFL transfer fee?

I would think not

brickeyee
May 27, 2012, 01:57 PM
I believe it is legal if the transfer happens at a liscenced FFL in your state.

NOT "at a liscenced FFL" [sic] but trough an FFL's books

He has to log it in from the seller, then do a 4473 to transfer it to the buyer, with all the required checks.

Just like buying a brand new gun from the FFL.

Gun Geezer
May 27, 2012, 02:08 PM
Is it worth the felony charges, loss of all gun rights and a stay at the graybar hotel with your bunk buddy for a FFL transfer fee?

I would think not
That's what I'm thinking.

natman
May 29, 2012, 09:27 AM
The poster would not be committing a felony...........

Sales between individuals

Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun.

Since the seller and purchaser are NOT from the same state, it's illegal.

Bubbles
May 29, 2012, 09:54 AM
Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun.
The part in bold is incorrect. Federal law is 18 years old for handguns for in-state private transfers, and 21 to get one from an FFL. Some states may set the age at 21.

TITAN308
May 29, 2012, 01:08 PM
As I am sure has been mentioned, the sale of any firearms that has one of the parties (seller or buyer) crossing state lines must be filtered through an FFL to be legal.

Dumb? Yes.

The law? Yes.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 29, 2012, 01:22 PM
Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age or older, 21 for a handgun.

As stated before, it's not illegal to sell a handgun to someone under 21 unless they are a minor on the Federal level. States may set different laws.

deadin
May 29, 2012, 01:25 PM
Let's see.... I go to a gunshow in another State and buy a long gun from a resident of that State. I know that I am committing an illegal act per the statutes, so I am liable for prosecution. The Seller didn't ask, so they don't know that I am from a different State and thereby "should" be safe under the written law. The exact opposite is true should a non-resident come to a gunshow in my State and buy or sell a gun to me. He's liable, I'm not. (Maybe)
Just to be safe, I always ask for ID to make sure I don't have to explain all this to a judge.

Shadow 7D
May 29, 2012, 01:43 PM
ALWAYS read the law, the ATF has openly admitted that they have incorrect and misleading information
(that isn't technically wrong, just not a accurate or complete explanation of the applicable law)

So take it with a grain of salt, and understand that law is seen as a whole, not just the federal statute but also all the legal decisions, rulings and judgements (the precedents) based on that law.

FROGO207
May 29, 2012, 06:18 PM
Add to all that above that IF you have a legal ID that is issued by a government agency stating that you reside within a state (not necessarily full time) showing a physical address you are considered a resident of that state by the BATF also.

dogtown tom
May 29, 2012, 06:48 PM
FROGO207 Add to all that above that IF you have a legal ID that is issued by a government agency stating that you reside within a state (not necessarily full time) showing a physical address you are considered a resident of that state by the BATF also.
That is not exactly correct.
What address your "government issued photo identification" shows is not proof that you actually reside in the state that issued that ID.

Your "current residence address" and "state of residence" is what a buyer puts on his Form 4473 when buying a gun from a licensed dealer.

example 1: You are a US citizen living and working in London, England. While you may have a Texas drivers license showing an address in Texas.......you are not considered a resident of Texas because you are not living in Texas.


example 2: A college student whose family home is in Texas and has a TX Drivers License goes to college in Oklahoma. While he is living in Oklahoma and going to school he is an Oklahoma resident.......not a Texas resident.

oneounceload
May 29, 2012, 06:54 PM
example 2: A college student whose family home is in Texas and has a TX Drivers License goes to college in Oklahoma. While he is living in Oklahoma and going to school he is an Oklahoma resident.......not a Texas resident.

Except when it comes to paying those college tuition fees - then he is still an out of state student - funny how that works

mgkdrgn
May 29, 2012, 08:15 PM
Let's see.... I go to a gunshow in another State and buy a long gun from a resident of that State. I know that I am committing an illegal act per the statutes, so I am liable for prosecution. The Seller didn't ask, so they don't know that I am from a different State and thereby "should" be safe under the written law.

Then the seller is stupid ... and yes, you can be arrested for doing something stupid. Happens every day.

You can only purchase, legally, FTF from residents of your home state. End of story.

FROGO207
May 30, 2012, 06:52 PM
So you are saying that if I have a secondary residence in a second state that I stay at for some lengths of time (vacation home, yearly rental) and have a state or federal issued ID (I have a drivers license from primary state) showing that I reside (sometimes) at that location and currently do reside at that location, I do not qualify per BATF to buy a firearm in that state?? I do not agree with this.:scrutiny:

NavyLCDR
May 30, 2012, 07:15 PM
So you are saying that if I have a secondary residence in a second state that I stay at for some lengths of time (vacation home, yearly rental) and have a state or federal issued ID (I have a drivers license from primary state) showing that I reside (sometimes) at that location and currently do reside at that location, I do not qualify per BATF to buy a firearm in that state?? I do not agree with this.:scrutiny:

No FROGO, that is not what dogtown tom is saying. What dogtown tom is saying is that a state or federal issued ID showing that you reside (sometimes) at that location is NOT REQUIRED to establish residency there. A secondary government document that proves the current residence address can be used to prove residency, even though that document by itself does not prove identity.

I can present a driver's license from state X to prove my identity, and produce something like a hunting license, vehicle registration, or tax document to prove residency in state Y in order to purchase firearms in state Y during the time that I am physically living in state Y. It's right there in the instructions to the dealer on the form 4473.

deadin
May 30, 2012, 07:45 PM
Then the seller is stupid ... and yes, you can be arrested for doing something stupid.

So, in your opinion the phrase "does not know or have a reasonable cause to believe" isn't worth the paper it's printed on??

A decent lawyer should be able to cast enough doubt to invoke the above piece of the law. (Nowhere does it require you ask for proof, but you're just a fool if you dont.):rolleyes:

YJake
May 30, 2012, 07:47 PM
I copy the seller/buyer's driver's license and have them sign it (If possible). I then log the gun in/out of my log book.

I am not an FFL holder, but having worked for several I prefer to cover my ass.

-Jake

FROGO207
May 30, 2012, 08:20 PM
Gotcha:cool: I was reading it wrong I guess.:o Thanks for the clarification. I did this a time or two in the past and had whatever was needed so I was able to purchase but don't remember exactly what I did use that they asked for.:) FWIW they will not take just my DL as it only has a PO box on it and even after asking DMV they would not add my physical address to DL. So I just add my hunting license which has both.

Owen Sparks
May 30, 2012, 10:47 PM
If you don't ask and he does not tell then there is no illegal act because you did not "knowingly" sell to an out of state resident.

mgkdrgn
May 30, 2012, 10:55 PM
So, in your opinion the phrase "does not know or have a reasonable cause to believe" isn't worth the paper it's printed on??

A decent lawyer should be able to cast enough doubt to invoke the above piece of the law. (Nowhere does it require you ask for proof, but you're just a fool if you dont.):rolleyes:
And the difference between a "fool" and someone "stupid" is ...

Scimmia
May 30, 2012, 11:37 PM
If you don't ask and he does not tell then there is no illegal act because you did not "knowingly" sell to an out of state resident.

Unless the ATF determines that you should have known for some reason. "Reasonable cause to believe" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. They could argue that someone wanting to buy from a private seller instead of a dealer is enough reasonable cause that you should have questioned it. If you live anywhere near the border of your state, they could argue that you should be suspicious of any transaction because the other person could be from across the border.

All they have to do it think that you should have known for whatever reason, and you're gonna be up the proverbial creek. "Knowingly" has nothing to do with it.

303tom
May 30, 2012, 11:47 PM
All they have to do it think that you should have known for whatever reason, and you're gonna be up the proverbial creek. "Knowingly" has nothing to do with it.

Same place our RIGHTS have gone, especially our 2nd....................

deadin
May 30, 2012, 11:57 PM
And the difference between a "fool" and someone "stupid" is ...

Stupid is dumb enough not to know any better. A fool is someone that thinks they're smarter than the system and can get away with "gaming" it.:rolleyes:

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