[kestak]

Greetings,

I am getting ready for a long range clinic and I would really use my M1A instead of a bolt action or my 223 AR.

After tens of tries, I can't find a load that will perform consistently in my M1A (in 308 of course).

One day, I'll get sub MOA groups with one load and the other day I'll get 4 MOA groups.

As of now, the groups who gave me one day sub MOA and crapola groups:
Nosler HPBT 168 grains, 2200 Sierra, Gameking Sierra, A-Max 168 gr
40.1 gr I4895
40 gr WC844

Yesterday I though I got the winner with Hornady SP 150 gr. with WC844 43.5 gr. The bullets holes were all touching each other in a 5 shots group. Then, the next 2 groups were 3 MOA. Moreover, when shot with my Howa 1500, I noticed quite a big flash at the muzzle that meant for me I should bring down 1 gr of powder.

BTW, with my Howa 1500, I can get very satisfying groups with those loads.

Anyway, anyone has a pet peeve load with I4895 with Sierra 2200 or Nosler HPBT 168 gr bullets?

Oh! I forgot to mention using one of those 2 powder. I did some reading and now I am trying the classical 41.5 gr of IMR 4895 under the Nosler 168 gr HPBT.
BTW, Any of you noticed a precision difference between the Sierra 2200 and the Nosler 168 HPBT?

Thank you

[Curator]

Clean all the copper out of the bore and switch to Sierra 168 HPBT bullets. Check for bullet runout, your dies might not be seating the bullets straight. Try a light crimp using the Lee "Factory crimp" die. My M1A did not shoot its best until I fed it better ammo. Nothing against Nosler but I could never get them to shoot like Sierras. The factory crimp cut my group size in half when I did it correctly.

[kestak]

I do have those Sierra 2200 and tried them. Same result.
I just loaded two times 25 Sierra 2200 and Nosler 168 HPBT with 41.5 IMR 4895 with CCI 200 primers and for the heck of it I did 10 more rounds of each with Wolf primers.

I do use FCD with each of my loads all the time.

How much not checking the runout will affect precision really?

[SlamFire1]

Stop using that Lee Factory Crimp die for one thing. Match bullets have thin jackets and all you are doing with the LFCD is permanently swaging the lead core of your match bullets.

This is what a LFCD did to 6.5 SMK’s.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/ReducedLeeCrimped65SMK.jpg

In fact, stop crimping at all for the M1a. The standard neck tension left by a sizing die is more than sufficient for a M1a. Crimping causes more problems than it solves, here is an example. Crimping bulged this case and it would no longer drop in a Wilson gage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Walkalongpicturecrimpdeformedshoulder1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Walkalongpicturecrimpdeformedshoulder2.jpg

If your rifle won’t shoot a 168 SMK, or Nosler, or Hornady Match with 40.5 to 41.5 grains IMR 4895 LC case, CCI #34 primer, then either you are not shooting to the rifle's capability, or the rifle is broke.

I have shot all of the bullets in competition and they all shoot well. Far inside what you are doing with a Howa or a M1a.

I assume you are using the post sight? You really have to work at it to shoot a post well. Get everything perfectly lined up before breaking the shot. For each shot say: "Sight alignment is more important than sight picture".

[kestak]

Thank you for the answers and pictures.

I use a scope on the M1A and when I tested my groups I used a Led Sled.
I checked many times and everything is mounted right with no movement. I use the ARMS mount with steel rings and a good quality scope.

With my other rifles, I never had any precision problem like that. It took me a while to arrive to what I wanted but the M1A is a piece of work (almost as much now that my commie PSL...:what:)

I'll load right away a batch of ammo without crimping. We'll see the results as soon as I can go put some lead down the range....:D

P.S.: I don't think the problem is me. I am an Appleseed Red hat. :)

[SlamFire1]

Well then, is your M1a glassbedded and do you have a match barrel?

An M1a in match configuration will shoot just at 1 -1.25 MOA.

A "rack grade" M1a is not as accurate.

[kestak]

Simple out of the rack M1A standard from Springfield armory.

BTW, I just pulled out one of my round and I am astonished how much the Lee FCD put a dimple in the bullet........

[morrow]

Lee factory crimp dies are absolute garbage, they are a crutch for people who make bad ammo. Stop using them. Throw them all away.

[Cosmoline]

FCD's are great for high-recoiling big bores that can pull bullets. The M1A has much less recoil than those rifles.

[jr_roosa]

Simple out of the rack M1A standard from Springfield armory.

Your sub MOA groups are probably just lucky. Use the MatchKings and if you can keep it under 3 MOA then you are probably approaching what you and the rifle can do. I'll bet if you do a few 10-shot groups, then you'll find that you and the rifle keep most of the shots around 2 MOA with some flyers out to 3 or 4 MOA. It's still worth optimizing things. With my non-accurized Garand, I get about 2.5 MOA with iron sights and SMKs, and that opens up to about 3.5 to 4 with Hornady FMJ. Different gun, but similar concept.

There's a reason that the NM and SuperMatch cost so much more than the rack rifle. Once you get off the bench, you'll find that 2-3 MOA is fine in any position other than prone or a really solid sitting position unless you shoot a lot of highpower matches. I am slowly approaching the point of diminishing returns with my 2.5 MOA rifle in matches. Saving my pennies for a National Match M1A.

-J.

[PBR Streetgang]

When I was shooting for a state team, we used IMR4895 41grains behind a Sierra Match King 168g BTHP head.It was accurate .................

[Grumulkin]

1. It's true; you don't need to crimp for an M1A but the Lee Factory Crimp Die is excellent in some other applications.

2. It used to be that Nosler and Hornady match bullets didn't give me as good results as Sierra bullets but, in more recent times, I've found Nosler bullets to be every bit as good as Sierra bullets.

3. My M1A load uses IMR 4064 with 168 grain match bullets.

[kestak]

So, you are telling me the m1a i paid a lot of noney is a POS that can hardly hit a man target at 600 yards....

If i want more accuracy, I need to buy their match rifle.

[Cosmoline]

Don't jump too quickly to conclusions. One thing my experiences with the M1A have shown me is that there are a number of potential weak spots due to the design limitations. With the standard grade rifles, they don't check as well as they should for trouble spots.

If you still have the problem ruling out bullet damage from crimping, I'd suggest looking into potential stock interference with the barrel. If your problem is getting worse as your barrel heats up, then that points strongly to something pressing where it shouldn't. And that really can throw your group off badly.

Simple way to check for that--buy a surplus $20 GI M14 stock, stick your rifle in there and fire for effect. I found my accuracy improved a notch when I ditched the Springfield plastic stock for a real wood one. I've improved it more by some bedding.

[jr_roosa]

So, you are telling me the m1a i paid a lot of noney is a POS that can hardly hit a man target at 600 yards....

If i want more accuracy, I need to buy their match rifle.

No! Sorry! I didn't mean that at all! I meant that 2moa is pretty respectable accuracy from a practical standpoint, and that your rifle should be able to do that. Also that your rifle is good enough that you should be able to tell the difference between MatchKings and reasonable quality FMJs should you want to have an accuracy load and an economical load.

My torso is well within an 18" circle, so 2moa would make me hittable to 900yds. 3moa to 600. Remember also that your wind drift at 600yds is going to be close to 1moa for every mile per hour of wind, so wind reading matters a lot more than the rifle accuracy does when you get out there a little bit. Just because somebody has a sub-moa rifle doesn't mean that they can actually hit a target at 600yds.

Their (Springfield) match rifles are advertised to do 1moa or sub-moa, and do it reliably for a long time, but that costs more to make that happen in an M1/M14 style gun.

We're all spoiled because when we shoot our ARs or bolt guns off the bench we get sub MOA at 100yds all day, even though away from the bench this level of accuracy is somewhat irrelevant without all of the other skills that go with midrange or long range shooting.

Your rack M1A is a really nice rifle, will be plenty accurate for practical shooting out to about 600yds, and will be fun to shoot at almost any rifle clinic out there especially if the shooting is away from the bench.

Someday, though, you'll probably outgrow it, but instead of getting one of their match rifles, you can have LRB, Arrington, or Fulton Armory rebuild it into a sub-moa monster.

Didn't mean to offend!

-J.

[kestak]

jr_Rosa, I was not offended. Life is too short to be offended by honest comments from fellow Americans. I just consider a 1300$ rifle should shoot better than my used rack grade M1 Garand that I bought at the CMP.

I really begin to think that rifle is overpriced now. I could live with consistent 2 MOA. But not my groups at 4 MOA and wandering. For examples, I can group one day at 100 and another day at 300. Then next group go back at 100. (I use the clock as an example of the group movement)

In fact, with what you all said, if my tests don't show up better accuracy, I plan to buy the magazine kit from Howa and simply use my 1500 with a magazine to extend the rounds capacity or maybe going to the clinic with my M1 Garand with a S&K mounted scope that shoots 1 MOA consistently.

BTW, is there a quick and dirty thing I can do with that platic stock to try to help the accuracy. With my PSL, I just had to remove some wood from my bottom handguard and it shrunk the group a little bit.

[kestak]

Nm for my question. I found the US army manual for accurising the M14...Doh

http://stevespages.com/pdf/m14_accurizing.pdf

[jr_roosa]

I was not offended. Oh good!

Is it your scope or scope mount?

Wandering groups sound like a problem with the optics.

It is frustrating to drop that kind of coin and be at the entry level with the rifle. That's the main barrier keeping me from getting one. I really want one of the high-end custom match rifles from LRB or Fulton, but my budget is in the National Match range of $1900 or so. It's tough to justify that for something that will take me from 2.5moa with the Garand to maybe 1 or 1.5 moa when for $1300 I can get a sub-moa AR15 match service rifle from Rock River. The best part about the Springfield rack grade guns is that they are good platforms to build on, which is cold comfort.

Maybe a trip back to Springfield is in order? I'm lucky because Phil Arrington is just across town from me, and he has done some excellent work on my Garand while I sat there and watched. Pretty cool experience.

You could always ship it to him and have him check it out. I'm sure that for the cost of a few hours of shop time, he can get it into the 2moa range. For a few dollars more he could make it outshoot the Super Match.

http://www.arringtonaccuracy.com/

-J.

[SlamFire1]

So, you are telling me the m1a i paid a lot of noney is a POS that can hardly hit a man target at 600 yards....

If i want more accuracy, I need to buy their match rifle.

No, your rifle is not a POS, it is a service rifle. Designed to operate through the worst environmental conditions world wide. And it does so. Service rifles are not target rifles.

My recollection was that a GI M14 had to shoot within 3.5 inches at 100 yards for acceptance at the factory. That is fine for a service rifle. The NM versions, the Marine Armorers told me 3 inches at 300 yards. That is a big difference.

If you want the ultimate in M1a accuracy you will have to spend money on the match modifications.

I looked at the referenced manual. The drilling and tapping of the gas cylinder is not the way to go. Darn screws will loosen. They did this before they had decent welding machines. I recommend having the band tack welded to the gas cylinder. I had that done for the match M1a's I had built up. My original Super Match, the screws will still work out and blow my score.

[jr_roosa]

Nm for my question. I found the US army manual for accurising the M14...Doh

Quoted on page #3

3.2: Average extreme spread for three consecutive 10 shot groups shall not exceed 6 inches at a range of 300m.

2moa out of a machine rest. And that's with the whole thing bedded and unitized and everything. If you can get your rack grade to do that with a little bit of tinkering, then you would be in good shape.

-J.

[morrow]

1. It's true; you don't need to crimp for an M1A but the Lee Factory Crimp Die is excellent in some other applications.
That's not true at all. If the FCD was such a great idea all dies companies would make their own version. They don't because it's a gimmick. It swages (deforms) the bullet and reduces accuracy. Swaging/deforming a bullet is bad no matter how you slice the pie. It's far better to put a taper crimp or even a roll crimp on rounds or guns that need it. The FCD has no place in a good reloaders toolbox.

[Cosmoline]

Morrow, it's very useful for big honking cast lead slugs in big honking leverguns. It permits the loader to get a very nice tight grip on the crimping groove. The recoil on those firearms is more than sufficient to literally pull the bullet with inertia. Likewise with big bore handguns.

[morrow]

Morrow, it's very useful for big honking cast lead slugs in big honking leverguns. It permits the loader to get a very nice tight grip on the crimping groove. The recoil on those firearms is more than sufficient to literally pull the bullet with inertia. Likewise with big bore handguns.
Way better to roll crimp those in the crimp groove. Again, deforming a bullet with a FCD is just plain stupid. There's no reason for it.

[SlamFire1]

Way better to roll crimp those in the crimp groove. Again, deforming a bullet with a FCD is just plain stupid. There's no reason for it

Words of wisdom.

I shoot with National Champions. I have been squadded at Camp Perry with the worlds best and I ask, "do you crimp your bullets?". No one, and I mean no one, crimps match bullets. If there was the tiny tiniest accuracy advantage to crimping, everyone would be doing it.

What I find laughable is the proof LFCD fans provide. You will see targets where the shooter tested "no" crimped versus “crimped” and they post results claiming crimping improves accuracy.

These guys can’t shoot straight enough to prove anything beyond that statistics works. Their shooting abilities are such that what they are getting is a huge variance between their awful groups, and they of course, pick the goods ones which support their theories.

When these crimpers start winning National Matches, then I will believe their results. When you see the test targets of Nationally ranked individuals, the targets they are creating to test their ammo and guns, what you see is a hole. Or a very cluster of shots almost making a single hole.

Only crimp for lever actions, elephant guns, and chain guns. Accuracy is not a consideration for any of these.

[morrow]

Only crimp for lever actions, elephant guns, and chain guns. Accuracy is not a consideration for any of these.
Yep, exactly, and it's way better to taper or roll crimp those (usually roll). That way you aren't deforming the bullet. You're crimping into the groove or cannelure.

I am so sick and tired of seeing absolutely horrid reloading info. The amount of new reloaders is skyrocking due to ammo availability and prices. The amount of new guys buying into LFCD is just plain sad.

What I find laughable is the proof LFCD fans provide. You will see targets where the shooter tested "no" crimped versus “crimped” and they post results claiming crimping improves accuracy.

These guys can’t shoot straight enough to prove anything beyond that statistics works. Their shooting abilities are such that what they are getting is a huge variance between their awful groups, and they of course, pick the goods ones which support their theories.
Yep, gotta love their "proof". You hit the nail on the head!

[Cosmoline]

So you hate FCD's. But I'm pretty sure FCD imprints aren't throwing him off 4 MOA, then giving him 1 MOA groups. The theory doesn't make much sense.

But, back to the thread, he needs to rule that out then look to stock interference or some other factor significant enough to cause that kind of variation in groups.

First, shoot some factory match ammo to rule out any handloading issues.

[kestak]

Hesding to the range with a bunch of different ammo...ccrimped and not crimped.
Will keep you posted.

[kestak]

I am back from the range!!!

First a question: Any of you chrono Sierra 2200 with 41.5 grains of I4895 out of their M1A? I would appreciate to know how much you clocked.

First my shooting was quite crappy and some guys came and began to talk with me. They could not understand that 2 groups were 4 MOA and one group 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. We looked at everything we saw nothing really wrong. So, one of the guy said let's put the target at 200 yards and he shot the gun...getting a 3 inch group. I shot it after him and I got....a 3 1/2 inch group but a little bit off were he put it. He was about 5 o'clock and I was 5.30 about 2 inches further from the center. I used the non crimped rounds.

BTW, the guy is a disabled US Army sniper. I was shooting at the club range of the base. Soooo... the guy found out a few things:
1 - I was shooting initially from a led sled. He made me shoot from a sandbag.
2 - The trigger sucks on my M1A (I could not notice, I am used to AR triggers and mil surp triggers...hehehehehe) and he told me to take it lower on the trigger.
3 - My scope with my prescription glasses, if I do not put my head exactly at the same place each time, makes a tiny variation that could translate to 1/2-1 MOA.

So, the lesson: This weekend I head to my friend who will make a little job on my trigger. Also, I change the scope for a better one and get and alignment cover (can't recall the name) that helps center my eyes on the scope. I think it si made by a British company. A friend has it and it does wonders.

Another thing. My bullet drop was 1 inch more than it should for a 308 168 grains sierra 2200 he said. It may be because my zero is not ok or my speed. I need to check that.

I plan to go again next week with the new setup and see if there are improvements.

Thank you

[jr_roosa]

The trigger sucks on my M1A

This makes a big difference.

My bullet drop was 1 inch more than it should for a 308 168 grains sierra 2200 he said

Don't sweat 1" at 200yd. That's why the scope and sights are adjustable.

a 3 inch group

This is spectacular. How many shots?

Now it's time do do some clinics, or even pop that scope off and shoot with the irons if the scope is giving you trouble. Get a good solid position, either off bags or sling supported prone, and you'll find that you can shoot pretty decent groups with the iron sights and not have the problems with scope alignment.

get and alignment cover

Cheek piece? Or do you mean something that goes on the scope itself?

You can even tape some foam padding to the top of the stock to get an idea of how high you need for good alignment. A scope on an M1A can be a challenge sometimes.

I hope you enjoy your rifle more now that you have a glimpse of what it can do.

-J.

[kestak]

All my groups are 5 shots. Ideally I would like 10 shots, but it would be too timely and cost prohibitive...hehehe

I'll provide a link for the gizmo. You put that on the scope rear reticule, can't recall name will have to ask my friend.

[Swampman]

My Standard M1A used to suffer from the same problem, great groups one day and lousy the next. Putting a couple of shims between the trigger group and stock helped quite a bit short term, but Devcon 10110 and a bedding job is what really made it behave. It's not a match rifle by any stretch of the imagination, but as long as I do my part, it'll stack 'em in inch and a half 5 shot groups all day. The only Mods to the rifle are the scope and mount, a trigger job and the bedding. I did the bedding last, but in my opinion, it made a far greater impact on the consistent accuracy I now enjoy than the scope or trigger job.

I load the "standard" 41.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a 168 grain MatchKing.

I use standard RCBS dies with a Hornady carbide expander ball.

I don't crimp the rounds that I load for maximum accuracy.

I do use sealant and a collet type crimping die on my "social" ammo.

Just like Lake City AAP does.

A place for everything, and everything in it's place...

Have fun, shoot straight and stay safe,
Swampman