[JimStC]

I know that the topic of this thread is Survival Knife and it has moved into a somewhat broader topic. In my Bug Out kit I also have a tomahawk designed like the Viet Nam era combat tomahawk. Multiple cutting edges, not easy to get real sharp, but lightweight and indestructible. It was made by American Tomahawk using the Peter LaGana design. Hence the VTAC LaGana model name.
I apologize if this is too much of a thread drift and if so Mods please move it as appropriate.

Here is the Company's description:
Overall length approx. 14 inches. Drop forged 0-1 steel axe head with a Rockwell of 52-54. Indestructible ST modified nylon handle. This hawk designed by Peter Lagana is the standard by which all other axes are judged. Lagana's head design has been in every major conflict since the Vietnam war. 2 5/8 inch cutting edge. Toothpick end is sharpened on both sides. Includes a heavy leather sheath. Perfect for campers. U.S. made.

I will appreciate your thoughts and comments,
Jim

[hso]

The vietnam hawk is one of the last one's I'd pick for a woodscraft role because of all the deficiencies mentioned, but a good hawk/hatchet is a great woodscraft tool and allows you to do a lot more work more easily than a big knife.

Any knife expected to do all woodscraft roles will be a set of compromises. Big and heavy for chopping and prying moves you away from more detailed tool making/food prep needs. Small enough to be a precision tool for making other tools and you lose some of the digging/prying/chopping power inherent in a big knife. Picking tools to do the job and accepting that you'll need more than one to do all the jobs well is sometimes needed.

[JimStC]

What do you recommend as a replacement? Actually, yesterday I put a pretty good edge on the main cutting blade, but in all honesty after doing that I realized what a poorly built blade it is.....
I have an Ontario Machete that is old but is salvageable but have yet to start working on its edge. Two different tools or overlap of applications??

[Nematocyst]

Jim, even though I don't own one, I've always fancied the SOG T'hawk (http://sogknives.com/store/F01T-N.html). Not at the top of my wish list anymore, mainly due to weight, though I may score one eventually.

I suspect that many here would scoff at it, and perhaps rightfully so. The first one's had production issues - notably a poor handle (don't remember the details) - but I'm guessing they fixed those.

I sort of like the spike for digging, so to save the blade edge for cutting.

PS added by edit. Indeed, the videos at the bottom of the page confirm they've fixed the handle issue. Originals were wood; new ones are a polymer capable of withstanding being run over by a car.

[hso]

You're much better off with real tool for using in the woods from Gransfors Bruks, Wetterlings or Snow & Nealley than something made like fishing lures (made to catch more fishermen than fish).

[Nematocyst]

You're much better off with real tool for using in the woods from Gransfors Bruks, Wetterlings or Snow & Nealley than something made like fishing lures (made to catch more fishermen than fish).

Probable translation: "I don't like the SOG Tomahawk."

Maybe if we ask him real nice, he'll tell us why. :scrutiny:

[22-rimfire]

Hso is not a SOG guy. He usually just does not comment one way or the other. I think the SOG Seal Pup Elite is a very good knife, but it isn't big enough for the OP.

[hso]

Hso is not a SOG guy.

Incorrect, I have several.

The SOG is probably the finest example of the tactical tomahawk genre and it isn't expensive. The problem is the genre. It serves no real purpose except to separate buyers from their money. You can get a traditional spike hawk if you want such a thing that will serve well to split small wood (I've paid much more for the 3 custom spike hawks on display). You can spring for a real tool like a hatchet, small axe or heavy machete that will save your bacon in the backwoods (I obviously paid more to have a Gransfors Bruks in the vehicle and by the fireplace and an Estwing in the garage, but I have 2 or 3 hatchets around that I've picked up as used tools). It's just that nothing in the tacticewl tommyhawk market does as well as a good hatchet you can get used for the same amount of money when it comes to actually surviving in the backwoods. Need a weapon, use the hatchet/axe to make a spear or pull the thing off your belt/pack and whack some malefactor in the melon with either the blade or the pol.

[Nematocyst]

Ah. OK, now we're getting somewhere.

Next question: what's the weight of that Gransfors Bruks in oz?

[ArfinGreebly]

Reference article here: Gränsfors Bruks Small Forest Axe (http://www.briangreen.net/2010/03/gransfors-bruks-small-forest-axe.html).


Head weight 24 oz.
Face width 3.25"
Hickory handle soaked in linseed oil
Handle length 19"
Comes with "The Axe Book" (.pdf link (http://www.gransfors.com/downloads/pdf/yxboken_eng.pdf))
Split grain leather sheath
20-Year guarantee


There is a smaller one, the Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet (http://www.bensbackwoods.com/servlet/Detail?no=228) (see also here (http://www.fine-tools.com/grans.htm)), having a 13.5 inch overall length and a slightly smaller head. Total weight is 24.7 oz, qualifying it as a "light" hatchet.
Wildlife Hatchet
A hatchet (short-handled axe) for trekking, easy to stow in a rucksack. The leather sheath stops the blade piercing the rucksack. This hatchet has a 36 cm handle and weighs only 0.7 kg. A reliable companion on all trips into wild country!
165216

Knife shoppe near me sells the GB line. I go drool over them from time to time.

[Nematocyst]

Thanks, Arf.
__________

Added by edit.

I need to point out one important detail.

Head weight is 24 oz, but the total weight is "2lb 2.5oz", or 34.5 oz.

For us oz counters (backpackers), that's a big diff.

There is a smaller one, the Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet (see also here), having a 13.5 inch overall length...

And for us short stick (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646068) guys, a 16" handle (SOG) is already on the short side, but a 13.5" handle is a long kubotan.

[22-rimfire]

The SOG is probably the finest example of the tactical tomahawk genre and it isn't expensive. The problem is the genre. It serves no real purpose except to separate buyers from their money.

Glad you spoke up. I agree with this and I don't particularly like SOG's tomahawk. I think you are better off with a good hatchet or small axe made by say Gransfors. I keep looking at them in the store, but I just can bring myself to buy one knowing full well, that fine tool would mostly sit in my garage unused most of the time.

[usmcchet9296]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/6978116079_826fa35971.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhermesmeyer/6978116079/)
IMG_0156 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhermesmeyer/6978116079/) by usmcchet92_96 (http://www.flickr.com/people/jhermesmeyer/), on Flickr

[JimStC]

John,
Who made that hawk?

Jim

[usmcchet9296]

Jim its a Cold Steel Trailhawk repainted by me

[JimStC]

Thanks. Nice looking.

[JimStC]

Worked on my Ontario machete today with stones. I was able to get a great edge on a somewhat old tool. Bought from my LGS in pretty bad shape.
I also oiled it and am very pleased for what I got for $30.
As I asked earlier what is the overlap with a hawk or hatchet? Blade is 18" and oal is 22.875". Looks like a plastic handle but seems sturdy. Has three pins through the handle.
Jim

[Texan Scott]

Just my 2 cents:

I'm more likely to choose a 30-30 for survival over an ar-15 because i'm more likely to need the gun to shoot food than people, and while both rifles can be used for either, the 30-30 is more appropriate for what i'm most likely to need, or need most of the time.

In the same way, I'm more likely to choose a hatchet or smallish camp axe over a combat tomohawk. Either will chop both wood and flesh, but since hacking off tree limbs is more likely in prospect than hacking off human limbs, bias goes to the tool -primary hatchet rather than the weapon-primary 'hawk.

Again, just my Texas hillbilly perspective,

[rcmodel]

I think I'd rather have an old shinglers hatchet then the Viet Nam "Hawk".

At least it has a good sharp ax edge on one side and a hammer head on the other side for driving tent stakes, and pounding rocks in rat holes when you get bored camping.

rc

[hso]

The Vietnam 'hawk was more of a demolition tool/weapon than a edged weapon. They weren't expected to take a shaving edge.

[Dr.Rob]

I good camp hachet/hawk should have a hammer back. The pointed back end of the Vietnam era hawks are of limited utility to me.

[Brian Williams]

Look at a Norlund Hudson Bay axe.

[whetrock]

I own several hawks including a Vtac and a Devin Price War Beast as well as a Cold Steel Norse Hawk. While I find Tomahawks asthetically pleasing and appreciate their historical and cultural value for all practical purposes I find them inferior to similar sized hatchets and axes for woodworking and general utility purposes. With that being said the experts say hawks make for better weapons. If you like hawks and want something that's sort of utilitarian take a look at some of Devin Price's work. IMO they're pretty reasonable as far as the price is concerned and pretty tough.

[leadcounsel]

Estwing makes an excellent hatchet and hammer combo for around $40. All steel. That's my camping ax/hammer combo.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=estwing+axe&hl=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1093&bih=457&wrapid=tlif133844823651410&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9237728085893244339&sa=X&ei=chnHT4TJIMbg2AW2w5yDCw&ved=0CIcBEPMCMAY

[IlikeSA]

I too am a fan of the Cold Steel trail hawk. It has very good balance and is an efficient chopper. It has a hammer poll on the back for pounding stakes. The handle is long enough to get good speed on a hit and the wood, if taken care of, is tough. Pair it with a good knife, like a BK7 or BK9, and you have a good woods combo. I would recommend a hawk to anyone over a hatchet.

My problem with hatchets is the unbalanced factor. It does a good job for what it is designed for, but all the weight at the head makes my arm and hand grow tired after a short time. I like machetes but I don't live in a swamp or a jungle, so they don't serve much of a purpose for me. My question to the OP is "Where do you plan on using it?"

[JimStC]

LC, what kind of an edge can you put on that Estwing? Do you know its weight?

Whetrock, you focused on my primary reason for owning the VTAC: Self defense. I have one in my truck and fishing boat, although in all honesty it will probably be the second or third tool I would grab when needed. My disappointment is the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade which I guess does relegate it to a defense tool. A friend who is retired LEO, when I showed it to him said " I would rather be shot than hit with that".
All that said, I am starting to recognize that there are other non-firearm tools which are as useful as my hawks. For a long time I have been a traditionalist in terms of self defense : concealed carry and a good knife. Upon reading some of the threads on THR, my thoughts concerning self defense are evolving toward a much broader concept of the term self defense and the tools for that purpose.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice

Jim

[JimStC]

My question to the OP is "Where do you plan on using it?"

I was posting at the same time as you and missed this until I hit submit.

Anyway, as I mentioned above I bought my hawks as back up defense tools.
I live in a rural setting and can barely see my neighbor and I like that a lot.
I have lived this way for 15 years and have developed a strong sense of self reliance. My wife and I spend most of our time alone and outside caring for our place. By that I don't mean gardening, rather clearing brush, cutting down dead trees to burn the next winter, clearing pond banks and such.
When I used the term "bug out kit" I meant it to be my go to necessities at a time of emergency.

[hso]

I guess does relegate it to a defense tool.

Not necessarily. As a blunt instrument that will focus the impact into that smaller area it is capable of causing serious injuries. Then smashing instead of chopping. If you were planning on chopping with it, it just won't deliver for you because of the very wide edge and possibly the materials.

[JimStC]

HSO,
My intent was to communicate that it is a defense tool, not a camping, wood cutting tool.

[hso]

It'll work for that, it just won't serve as a sharpened/chopping tool.

[Cosmoline]

Personally I'd want something with a lot more power and cutting surface. If you go back in history and look at actual combat axes, used in actual combat, they tended to maximize blade area and leverage. Blades were swept down, as with beard axes, or up, as with Francisca, or both up and down. Steel was stretched as far as possible to make as much cutting surface as possible. It was kept thin, too.

With tactical hawks, they almost seem to be closer to war hammers than a battle axe. And those were made for punching through heavy steel and padded armor so they're of questionable utility now.

And as much as I love my G-B's, they are indeed balanced and designed for wood chopping and particular carpentry chores. The steel is thick and heavy, with typically wedge-profile blades. They'd inflict a nasty wound, but are not balanced for speed of recovery and would also tend to get wedged in any obstacle they hit.

To put it buntly, if you are fighting for your life with an axe, you will want something that will deliver as big a flesh wound as possible in the first stroke while leaving momentum for a followup stroke. Not something that will punch in and stick. It should be able to deliver nasty wounds whether swung, stabbed, slashed or sat upon. Google around for actual historical combat axes from the days when they were used for that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Dane_Axe.JPG/601px-Dane_Axe.JPG

[Nematocyst]

Now that there's ^ what I'd call a battle blade. :eek:

[mdauben]

The Vietnam 'hawk was more of a demolition tool/weapon than a edged weapon. They weren't expected to take a shaving edge.

While many of the modern interperetations of the "tactical" tomahawk are intended more as breaching tools or heavy utility blades than CQC weapons, every account I have read about Peter LaGana's creation of the original Vietnam Tomahawk was that it was designed specifically for use as a weapon.

Now, whether they could actually take a sharp edge or not, I couldn't say. ;)

[whetrock]

Whetrock, you focused on my primary reason for owning the VTAC: Self defense. I have one in my truck and fishing boat, although in all honesty it will probably be the second or third tool I would grab when needed. My disappointment is the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade which I guess does relegate it to a defense tool. A friend who is retired LEO, when I showed it to him said " I would rather be shot than hit with that".
All that said, I am starting to recognize that there are other non-firearm tools which are as useful as my hawks. For a long time I have been a traditionalist in terms of self defense : concealed carry and a good knife. Upon reading some of the threads on THR, my thoughts concerning self defense are evolving toward a much broader concept of the term self defense and the tools for that purpose.

I hear ya while I'm not a fan of edged weapons for defensive purposes by any means I understand their usefulness in certain situations were a firearm may be prohibited. If I lived in an anti-gun state or country and was in need of a defensive arm of some sort I'd take a harder look at hawks and probably keep one handy. With proper training they can be very effective from what I understand. Also they can go under the radar as a tool if found in your vehicle. I keep a Machete in my truck as a tool but it could suffice as a weapon if the need arise but I'd rather not go there, but it doesn't hurt to have options. I believe my Vtac was made out of 1060 rather than O1 by the way. If your on a budget or don't want to invest a whole lot in a tomahawk Cold Steel makes a variety of patterns in 1055 carbon at a reasonable price.

[wheelgunslinger]

Defensive, I'd rather not have a tomahawk and have a longish blade instead.
You're looking for something you can pick up and use in a crisis. A tomahawk requires the establishment and maintenance of a perishable skillset. If you don't learn to use it well and maintain that, you can turn a nice swing into a glancing blow, then you're off balance (weight forward) and a bad guy gets a nice open shot at you.
Just my 2 cents.

[JimStC]

That is some great advice. The dynamics of a miss or poor hit. I haven't thought that though. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Coincidentally, I just bought a Kabar 1248.

[Nematocyst]

Coincidentally, I just bought a Kabar 1248 (http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/9).

Well, now, for obvious reasons (see other threads), I can't wait to read your review on that blade. :)

[JimStC]

Nem, I'll post up as soon as I receive it. Price wise vs the others discussed it was a lay up. We shall see. Probably should have it in a week. $54 shipped. I think I did ok??
Also just bought a Kellam Puukko on Ebay. Nice looking knife

[Nematocyst]

Yah, I think yah did fine. ;)

[whetrock]

I'll echo that also. I wanna see a review of your Ka-Bar Cutlass as well(if it's no problem). While some may turn their nose up at them, Ka-Bar's imported offerings are of excellent quality and compare quite nicely to their domestic knives IMO. It should prove to be an excellent "camp knife" and handle a wide array of tasks quite well. I think you'll enjoy it. The Kellam you mentioned is also a fine knife as well and a fine example of scandinvaian cultery as far as I'm concerned.

[Deltaboy]

Estwings are solid axes and tools.

[JimStC]

Very interesting realization today. As I have mentioned I have two VTAC hawks. My issue was the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade. Well, last night I got out my second one and did some work with stones. Surprisingly, I got a good edge on it with a reasonable effort. So today I went to my wood pile and did some testing against my 18" blade Ontario machete that I have recently "restored". If I were to score the outcome on a scale of 1 to 10 (chopping effectiveness) I would rate the Ontario an 8 and the VTAC a 6.5. I cut both flexible, brush cutting type of stuff, and some 4"+/- logs.
My question is why the difference in the two hawks? I probably bought them 5years apart. In a pinch the second would be a decent chopping/cutting tool while the other I would score as a 4.5 out of 10. That much difference in QC and materials. Wonder how I can research that?

[JimStC]

Received the Kabar 1248 today and headed to the wood pile. Nice Kydex sheath with leather closing straps, belt loop and sheath back that rests against your leg.
At the wood pile I did some chopping and batoning. While chopping it felt like the handle was slightly too short. This impacted the balance as my hand was off the end of the handle. I'll try a firmer grip next time out. I wasn't limp handing it. I was holding it with a hammer-type grip. Some flexibility to cushion the impact. It may also be due to the shape of the grip which has a swell and curve. It is well thought out. I just wasn't accustomed to the shape. The more I look at it I see how it is intended to actually enhance your grip. The grip material is great
Batoning gets an A+. Very, very sharp and I used a small round log as the driver. Cut half way through a 6" log very quickly.
I am very glad I made this purchase. I will need to try some different gripping techniques but for the price I'd buy another and another and..........

[Nematocyst]

Good to know you're happy with it, Jim. Thanks for the update. Looking forward to more.

[JimStC]

Update: I have a locust tree down on the back part of my place. I decided to harvest some branches for "sticks". The 1248 is a cutter. As mentioned in another thread, a few strikes and I am cutting through 2-4" branches. I am still using it to clean the branches of bark but it is getting trumped by my BK 7. Anyone looking for that size knife should take a hard look at the BK 7. I now have three Ka Bar knives, two American made. The balance of the BK 7 is outstanding...
Disclaimer: I do not own Cutco stock (parent company of Ka Bar:D)

I also found some nice tan micarta slabs for the BK 7. Bling, bling.
Seriously, they do look good

[EnglishmanInArizona]

For those looking at the hawk/hatchet/axe as a weapon:

This came up in the epic "Short Sticks" thread, and it closely resembles hawk techniques I've been taught. Utterly brutal with a hawk:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/coldsteel.html

With a hawk, pulling it out of the belt means that you are usually choked right by the head. The haft along your forearm is excellent for blocking with. The beard, if you have one, will hook hands, knees, necks and is an excellent pain compliance tool. Bludgeoning with the eye is a hell of a lot better than a hammerfist. Putting a second hand on the haft (if it's long enough) makes thrusts with the eye or the haft very effective.

All of those techniques are very close measure, can be done in tight spaces, and I think they are easier than trying to control a hawk held in a woodcutting position. The nice thing, of course, is that you can always bump the end of the haft against part of your body and push the hawk further out from your hand for a strong chop when you have more room/time.

I bring this up because (a) it's a cool set of techniques and (b) a mid-sized axe/hatchet (18"+) is as well or better adapted for it than a lot of the "Tactical Hawks" out there.

The shape of the haft is important. On a tactical type, you want the grip scales to come all the way up to the head. On an axe/hatchet, you don't want the haft to be too dramatically wiggly (along it's length) or too flat near the head (in section). This example is bad: http://work949.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/hatchet.jpg

So, my humble suggestion is to get a tool that actually cuts wood (for 99.99% of use) and fight with it like it's a stick with a sharp bit on one end (the other 0.01% of use). If things are really bad, knock your enemy about a bit and THEN split his head in two like Robert the Bruce did to my ancestor at Bannockburn. The real tool will probably do a better job of that, too!