CZ 75 problems


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Tired_and_hungry
May 31, 2012, 05:18 AM
Let me just tell y'all what happenned when I shot my first 9mm pistol today, a NIB CZ-75 made in 1995.

I started by loading up two magazines of 115gr WWB ball ammo and was looking forward to experiencing the legendary CZ accuracy and reliability. The problem was that I got the first and not the second. Shooting at 25 yards in a standing unsupported position, I shot a 6.5" group with my first 15rd magazine but when I loaded the second magazine, the 6th round resulted in a failure to extract (the slide was locked backwards and half the empty brass cartridge was hanging out of the chamber). I thought that this simply meant that the gun needed to be broken in and I loaded up another 30rds in my two magazines while hoping for the best.

However, i ended up being disappointed when my second magazine gave me another FTE! :fire: At this point, another shooter in an adjacent lane noticed my consussive cursing and suggested that I should replace my factory recoil spring with one rated for a lower poundage. It is my understanding that the factory recoil springs are rated for 13 or 14lbs and my shooting neighbour let me try out a 12lb spring from his toolkit.

Four magazines containing a total of 60rds later, I experienced two stovepipes with two different magazine. :fire: At this stage, my newfound friend took out a recoil spring rated for 15lbs and suggested that I try that out instead. Consequently, I noticed that the recoil felt heavier, racking the slide took more effort but my last 100rounds of WWB was fired reliably without any hiccups from my pistol.

Can anyone here help me out? What's happenning with my pistol? Why did it not work accurately out of the box? I thought that all CZ pistols were tested before they left the factory?

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JDGray
May 31, 2012, 05:31 AM
Sorry about your CZ experience:(
In all my CZs, the factory recoil spring works just fine, maybe a bit light. The older pistols did have weak spring issues, the extractor spring being one of them, I would change it out as well...
A call to CZ USA may help also.

It dont sound like limp wristing, but it could cause what your seeing.

Thompsoncustom
May 31, 2012, 07:35 AM
Stock recoil spring is 16lbs. I would give CZ usa a call or start by replacing all your springs.

railroader
May 31, 2012, 08:56 AM
I use to have a 75b military that was made in 1996.It started to develop extraction problems. I ordered a new extractor and replaced it and the problem went away. The newer extractor also had a larger claw then the original. Order an extra power spring from wolf and if that doesn't fix the problem order a new extractor. The stock recoil springs are 14lbs. by the way.

ClickClickD'oh
May 31, 2012, 09:04 AM
A NIB '95 production gun?

Honestly, I'm doubting the NIB part on an 18 year old gun. I suspect you have worn out springs. Get some from CZ or Wolff.

JohnBT
May 31, 2012, 09:08 AM
"I use to have a 75b military that was made in 1996"

I still have mine. What a great gun at a tremendous price back then. That's all I know about the -75B.


"I thought that this simply meant that the gun needed to be broken in"

Did you clean it and lube it before you shot it? Were these the original factory mags? And lastly, quite a few folks have had trouble with certain batches of 9mm WWB. Have you tried other ammo brands yet?

John

ChefJeff1
May 31, 2012, 10:39 AM
Try some different ammo. WWB isn't exactly high power stuff.

Orion8472
May 31, 2012, 10:51 AM
Part of me wonders if this is just an issue of "break in period". :confused:

If his 15lb spring worked, get one and take it back out.

Tired_and_hungry
May 31, 2012, 10:54 AM
Thanks for all the replies thus far but there are a couple of things that need clarification.

1) I am based in South East Asia and won't be able to access the help provided by CZ-USA. My contract with the local branch of a US MNC will not end for another four years and my next home leave is not scheduled for another 10 months.
2) I bought the CZ-75 (its not a B model) from a local gun dealer and am 100% sure that it is NIB. When I got it, the gun still had the original preservative grease on it and the inside of the barrel still had the characteristic "insect turds" within which is basically dried grease from the factory.
3) Naturally, my magazines are the original factory fresh 15 rounders that came with the gun.
4) Lastly, the recoil spring that I put into the pistol in place of the factory spring comes from Wilson Combat and appears to be made at least 10 years ago. As stated earlier, the new spring is one pound "stronger" than the factory spring at 15lbs and oddly enough is 5mm LONGER than the factory spring.

In any case, the gun is now harder to rack but with the Wilson Combat recoil spring, my last 100 rounds of WWB were jam free. Can I assume that my problem is solved. Is 100 rounds enough proof of reliability?

Lastly, can anyone here guide me to an on-line graphical tutorial on how to replace the critical springs (apart from the main recoil spring) in the CZ-75's upper receiver?

Tcruse
May 31, 2012, 10:56 AM
Try some different ammo. WWB isn't exactly high power stuff.
WWB is not that weak when compared to the other common range ammo, see some examples below:

Federal Champion 1120 fps
Tula 1150 fps
Most factory re-manufactured 1140 fps (locally)
Remington 1145fps
CCI Blazer 1145 fps
PMC 1150 fps
Brown Bear 1180 fps
Independence 5250 - 1150 fps
S&B 1300 fps
WWB 1190 fps

jmr40
May 31, 2012, 11:25 AM
experiencing the legendary CZ accuracy and reliability.

CZ's accuracy is certainly above average. Their reliability is an internet myth. They are one of the worst performing guns on the market in this regard. This is one of many reasons you will not see any in the holsters of LE or anything but a few 3rd world militaries.

If you don't belive me do a few internet searches of CZ malfunctions. You will find more posts for problems just like this than any other gun. Pretty telling when you consider CZ only sells a tiny fraction of the guns sold by any other manufacturer.

This is a common problem. Let a gunsmith replace every spring in the gun and in all factory magazines. While he has it you might as well have the trigger worked on at the same time. When finished you will have a great range gun that will likely shoot as well as anything. But there is nothing CZ makes I'd trust my life with.

Walt Sherrill
May 31, 2012, 11:34 AM
Stock recoil spring is 16lbs. I would give CZ usa a call or start by replacing all your springs.

For the 9mm full-size gun, stock recoil spring weight is 14 lbs. It's 16 lbs for the .40 model, and 17 lbs. for both the 9mm and .40 compact models. I've never noticed much difference in performance regardless of the weight used, but prefer the lighter springs because they may the slide easier to rack.

The problems described seem to have more than one cause: early lock back of the slide could be due a bent (or out-of-position) slide stop spring, a slightly oversize slide stop (being hit by rounds as they feed or get ready to feed), or out of spec ammo). I had that happen with my 85 Combat when new, many years ago: you could see where the jacketed round was bumping the nub on the slide stop. A few light passes with a file fixed that.

The failures to properly extract or eject may be due to a weak extractor spring -- CZ had weaker extractor springs in the older models. CZ has upgraded them, and you can also get them from Wolff Springs. If it wasn't NIB, there may be junk behind the extractor.

If your gun was truly NIB, you should call CZ-USA, as suggested, and see what they have to say. You can email them. You sound frustrated, but none of this is particularly serious -- and many folks often have problems with a NEW GUN, until it is broken in, and they are more familiar with the gun.

ClickClickD'oh
May 31, 2012, 11:56 AM
CZ's accuracy is certainly above average. Their reliability is an internet myth. They are one of the worst performing guns on the market in this regard. This is one of many reasons you will not see any in the holsters of LE or anything but a few 3rd world militaries. You'll find one in my holster on duty. Last time I checked, Texas wasn't a third world anything.

If you don't belive me do a few internet searches of CZ malfunctions. You will find more posts for problems just like this than any other gun. Pretty telling when you consider CZ only sells a tiny fraction of the guns sold by any other manufacturer.
Because random google searches on the internet are a great basis for anything. I shoot my CZ-75B in IDPA all the time as well as use it for work, qualifications and training. Never had a problem with it.

That's not to say that there aren't CZs with problems out there. My CZ-40P never ran well no matter what I did to it. But CZ-75Bs that people haven't screwed with, or aren't trying their new handload in, work like clocks.

Interestingly enough, at the last IDPA match I saw a guys <insert popular brand> 1911 mag spit it's follower through the feed lips. He told me he bought them because the chatter on the internet said they were good mags. Take internet chatter with a large grain of salt.

After all, my Glock should have shot me by now, my AR-15 can't kill anything bigger than rabbits and my 1911 cost $1500. ... according to the internet.


Tired_and_hungry, if the gun really has been in packing grease for 18 years (you lucky dog), there's a good chance that what you are experiencing is because some dried up nasty has gotten behind the extractor. Failing to pull a case out of the chamber is a good indicator that the extractor is jumping off of the rim. Punch out the extractor pin to dismount the extractor then clean up in there real well.

Walt Sherrill
May 31, 2012, 12:00 PM
This is one of many reasons you will not see any in the holsters of LE or anything but a few 3rd world militaries.

Hmm. I guess that's why Ruger has never had a lot of LE or military business, huh? Too unreliable? S&W hasn't sold many guns to military units around the world in the last 25-30 years, either. Guess they're just too unreliable, too?

You may not like CZs, and I can understand that, as everyone has different tastes and likes with handguns. Lots of folks don't like Glocks, either. That said, your assertion, above, is basically fantasy (like much of what we read on the internet), based on your dislikes and not on facts.

Despite CZ's long history of firearm production, it was absorbed by the Communist economic monolith after WWII; until the fall of the Soviet Union, CZ was a government run business. (They made a lot of motorcycles and refrigerators, among other things.) When the Communist Bloc finally fell, CZ had to start all over as a capitalist business, and had to get its own funding -- not an easy thing to do at the time. In that sense, it's had to act like any other small business enterprise, basically starting over from scratch. I'm surprised they even survived. Most of the car makers in the old Communist Bloc just disappeared...

CZ can't compete with the big gun makers for LE or military business. It's a relatively small company without the deep pockets of Glock, S&W, SIG, Beretta, etc. It's also unlikely that CZ will set up a factory here in the US any time soon, either -- something required for many US LE and Military contracts. CZ is just starting to get a number of military contracts.

If you have some FACTUAL data or information to substantiate your claims, above (about why CZ hasn't sold more to LE and Military purchasers), share them with us -- but please don't give us your attitudes and expect us to treat them as facts.

Orion8472
May 31, 2012, 12:02 PM
Click, I would think you would be more right about the ejector rather than a spring issue, but not sure why the 100 rounds with Wilson spring ran flawless, . . . unless through the firing process, what was lodged no longer is.

ClickClickD'oh
May 31, 2012, 12:06 PM
It's entirely possible that shooting the gun broke down what ever was gumming it up,

Orion8472
May 31, 2012, 12:24 PM
Yes. I would be interested in the OP taking it back to the range with the spring that came with the gun and seeing how it does now.

PabloJ
May 31, 2012, 01:12 PM
CZ's accuracy is certainly above average. Their reliability is an internet myth. They are one of the worst performing guns on the market in this regard. This is one of many reasons you will not see any in the holsters of LE or anything but a few 3rd world militaries.

If you don't belive me do a few internet searches of CZ malfunctions. You will find more posts for problems just like this than any other gun. Pretty telling when you consider CZ only sells a tiny fraction of the guns sold by any other manufacturer.

This is a common problem. Let a gunsmith replace every spring in the gun and in all factory magazines. While he has it you might as well have the trigger worked on at the same time. When finished you will have a great range gun that will likely shoot as well as anything. But there is nothing CZ makes I'd trust my life with.
Members of armed forces and police of leading nations do not like their pants to keep falling off and suspenders aren't really that comfortable either. The CZ75 is product of the 1970s and when compared to modern designs like the Caracal it really shows its age. My full size .45auto unladen with magazine in place comes in at <26oz. My advice would be to eat, rest and trade that gun for something like: Glock, Caracal, M&P or XD.

Ash
May 31, 2012, 02:22 PM
Israel isn't exactly 3rd World, either, and they used a ton of them.

JDGray
May 31, 2012, 02:56 PM
CZ may have changed things over the years, like how they pack the gun. All mine came with loads of oil on everything, no grease.

razorback2003
May 31, 2012, 04:41 PM
CZ 75 makes a great range gun. I am not impressed with the QC when compared to Ruger, S&W, Sig, Glock, Beretta. There is something wrong when a lot of people are having to get extractors and extractor springs replaced. It is a good shooting gun though and if you have one with no problems then you have a keeper.

armoredman
May 31, 2012, 04:55 PM
ClickClick, ignore jmr40, he has a massive chip on his shoulder just trolling to see who he can get to respond, never with an facts but full of emotion and spew, kinda like reading the Washington Post.
I would like to see the results of what happens next range trip with both springs. You can try contacting czub.cz, they MIGHT be able to give some help over there we can't from here. If that doesn't work and you need a new spring from CZ-USA, have them ship it to me and I'll send it overseas for ya.
18 years of sitting in the box with dried bat guano grease, nice to see it works, shoulda seen the fun I had trying to get cosmo out of a Mosin that sat twice as long. BTW, what did you lube it with after stripping that ancient grease out with? Just curious what's available over there.

meanmrmustard
May 31, 2012, 06:12 PM
Searched, and none of what you say is substantiated jmr40. I see, read, hear, and know as an owner that CZs are indeed very reliable. I have no qualms putting my 75 up against anything you have or wish you had.

Don't believe everything you read, as you will be sorely confused. Not trusting your life to a CZ? Hmmm...I wouldn't trust my life to anything man made. However, for a gun that is classier than you are sir, CZ gets the nod. I would not oblige you to spread crap, unless you're a farmer.

sirgilligan
May 31, 2012, 06:30 PM
I shattered a bone in my hand this spring. I shot my CZ 85B a couple of weeks ago for the first time. Barely had the hand strength to rack the slide.

I was shooting WWB and I was struggling with a comfortable grip. I have to come up with a new grip since one finger doesn't fold the same as it used to do.

I had three failures to eject, of those one was a failure to extract.
I am confident the reason for me was a weak hold (limp wristing) combined with some weak ammo. I bought this WWB 100 round box from Wallyworld back after the last presidential elections, all I could find. It was unusually dirty (smoke everywhere).

jmr40 is one that I have read most of his posts. He has a particular beef with CZ and he often states it. I don't know if he swore to get a pound of flesh for satisfaction or feels the need to warn everyone of their mistake, or just make us feel bad about our CZ pistol choice. :-) And, I don't mind him doing it.

itchy1
May 31, 2012, 07:16 PM
"Their reliability is an internet myth. They are one of the worst performing guns on the market in this regard."

How about some actual data to back this up? We're waiting...

I have read far more positive reports on CZ than negative. I've had a 75B for nearly 9 years now and it is among my favorite pistols. The triggers tend to start out a little gritty but smooth up quite nicely before too long. I also own S&W and Sigs as well. They are all wonderful and rock solid reliable. I won't keep a pistol unless I feel that I can trust my life to it. Reliability is everything and my 75b personifies the word.

SharpsDressedMan
May 31, 2012, 07:52 PM
Not all tools work right out of the box. Especially when they have set for 17 years. As noted above, springs get tired, even sitting idle. I'd also install a new extractor spring. I curently have two pre-B CZ75's, and both have updated springs. One needed a new extractor spring, the other a magazine catch spring. After both upgrades, both guns have been 100%. I agree with the break in analysis, too. Most machines get better with a little break in.

meanmrmustard
May 31, 2012, 08:11 PM
Not all tools work right out of the box. Especially when they have set for 17 years. As noted above, springs get tired, even sitting idle. I'd also install a new extractor spring. I curently have two pre-B CZ75's, and both have updated springs. One needed a new extractor spring, the other a magazine catch spring. After both upgrades, both guns have been 100%. I agree with the break in analysis, too. Most machines get better with a little break in.
I've learned through my profession that no use wears springs nearly as fast as regular use.

1SOW
June 1, 2012, 12:25 AM
Tired_and_hungry, if the gun really has been in packing grease for 18 years (you lucky dog), there's a good chance that what you are experiencing is because some dried up nasty has gotten behind the extractor. Failing to pull a case out of the chamber is a good indicator that the extractor is jumping off of the rim. Punch out the extractor pin to dismount the extractor then clean up in there real well.

This should be your "FIRST" thing to do. Spray brake cleaner will work without stripping the pistol or strip and hand clean everything. AFTER it's cleaned, reoil all the friction surfaces with your preferred lube. Synthetic motor oil will work nicely if your options are limited.

As Walt said: the stock recoil spring is 14# and that will run WWB or similar range ammo perfectly. Ejections should be 6'-8' as a guide for a "tuned" recoil spring weight. If you shoot a really light load, then a lighter spring might be needed. If you shoot all NATO loads, a slightly heavier recoil spring might be better, especially if your brass is being thrown into the next county.

The "primary" purpose of the recoil spring is to "FEED" rds off the mag into battery. If the ammo is strong enough to fully retract the slide and feed the next rd, you're good-to-go.
Crud build-up will prevent this cycle from working smoothly.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

Kiln
June 1, 2012, 05:12 AM
Just don't use harsh solvents on the gun if it is nickel plated or you may seriously damage the finish.

My advice is to strip it and clean it by hand anyways so that you can get it cleaned really thoroughly.

JDGray
June 1, 2012, 05:12 AM
Ejections should be 6'-8' as a guide for a "tuned" recoil spring weight. If you shoot a really light load, then a lighter spring might be needed. If you shoot all NATO loads, a slightly heavier recoil spring might be better, especially if your brass is being thrown into the next county.


On a CZ, thats gonna be tough.... Mine all launch brass a good 15-30' with heavier recoil springs, my 40B being the worse offender. I would guess the low slide mass in CZs design, is the reason.

Walt Sherrill
June 1, 2012, 08:16 AM
Just don't use harsh solvents on the gun if it is nickel plated or you may seriously damage the finish.

That has NOT been my experience, and I've had several nickel-plated CZ, and have an 85 Combat (nickel) that I've had since the late 1990s. No issue. (I frequently use brake cleaner,too.)

One of the concerns about nickel finishes is using solvents which include copper-attacking ingredients. For some guns, that stuff can get into micro-cracks in a plated finish, and attack the copper base that is used with most nickel plated guns. If that happens, the nickel finish will fail where the copper is attacked. CZ does not use a copper undercoat, so THAT is not an issue with CZs.

RE: CZ recoil springs.

1) a heavier recoil spring does NOT protect the frame. The force of recoil is transferred to the frame when the slide slams forward, not when it goes to the rear. The small slide stop is all that stops the slide, and a heavier spring means that MORE force is transferred, after being stored. (If you don't use a heavier recoil spring, the force not stored is passed through the frame to your hand and arm.) Recoil force is also absorbed by the hammer spring, and a heavier spring there can help with recoil, too -- but it may make the trigger a little less pleasant. As has been previously stated, the real function of a recoil spring is not to protect the gun's frame, but to allow the gun to load the next round and to continue to function. Heavier springs and recoil buffers don't protect anything; they can (positively) change the recoil experience for some folks -- by changing the IMPULSE of recoil.

2) The Wolff springs that everyone uses are really Tanfoglio/Witness springs, designed for the larger-diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods. Wolff makes springs for the Browning Hi-Power that are a physical and functional match to the CZ springs, and that's what I use -- they have the same diameter as the CZ springs, and don't slop-around on the guide rod like the Tanfoglio/Witness springs. Recently, Wolff started offering lower weight springs for the BHP, and they work well in the CZ. (They also offer a variable-rate spring that is my next acquisition.)

3) If you reload, and you find your brass flying away, go to a heavier recoil spring or heavier recoil and hammer spring. Wolff offers "calibration" packs (use the BHP springs) that will let you try different weights to find what works best for your guns or loads. Be wary of TOO HEAVY a recoil spring, however, as it may lead to a broken slide stop.

Kiln
June 1, 2012, 09:12 AM
That has NOT been my experience, and I've had several nickel-plated CZ, and have an 85 Combat (nickel) that I've had since the late 1990s. No issue. (I frequently use brake cleaner,too.)

One of the concerns about nickel finishes is using solvents which include copper-attacking ingredients. For some guns, that stuff can get into micro-cracks in a plated finish, and attack the copper base that is used with most nickel plated guns. If that happens, the nickel finish will fail where the copper is attcked. CZ does not use a copper undercoat, so TYAT is not an issue with CZs.

RE: CZ recoil springs.

1) a heavier recoil spring does NOT protect the frame. The force of recoil is transferred to the frame when the slide slams forward, not when it goes to the rear. The small slide stop is all that stops the slide, and a heavier spring means that MORE force is transferred, after being stored. (If you don't use a heavier recoil spring, the force not stored is passed through the frame to your hand and arm.) Recoil force is also absorbed by the hammer spring, and a heavier spring there can help with recoil, too -- but it may make the trigger a little less pleasant. As has been previously stated, the real function of a recoil spring is not to protect the gun's frame, but to allow the gun to load the next round and to continue to function. Heavier springs and recoil buffers don't protect anything; they can (positively) change the recoil experience for some folks -- by changing the IMPULSE of recoil.

2) The Wolff springs that everyone uses are really Tanfoglio/Witness springs, designed for the larger-diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods. Wolff makes springs for the Browning Hi-Power that are a physical and functional match to the CZ springs, and that's what I use -- they have the same diameter as the CZ springs, and don't slop-around on the guide rod like the Tanfoglio/Witness springs. Recently, Wollf started offering lower weight springs for the BHP, and they work well in the CZ. (They also offer a variable-rate spring that is my next acquisition.)

3) If you reload, and you find your brass flying away, go to a heavier recoil spring or heavier recoil and hammer spring. Wolf offers "calibration" packs (use the BHP springs) that will let you try different weights to find what works best for your guns or loads. Be wary of TOO HEAVY a recil spring, however, as it may lead to a broken slide stop.



I wasn't for sure, I've just been told that as a rule of thumb you should never use certain cleaners on nickel plated guns. It normally says on the can or bottle if it is safe to do so or not.

Maybe not on CZ guns because of the type of finish it is but as a general rule I won't use them on mine, it isn't necessary anyways.

Walt Sherrill
June 1, 2012, 09:19 AM
For most nickel-plated guns, any solvent that contains ammonia would be a potential threat. Anything that gets copper out of the barrel could be a threat to some nickel finishes. Not so with CZs, according to CZ.

(Copper solvents are an issue with any finish that uses a copper base/foundation. Nickel doesn't bond with some steels well, which is why some have the copper base under the nickel finish.)

I corrected some typos in my original response, above.

klmspider
June 2, 2012, 05:51 AM
Odd problems from your CZ 75. I bought one (CZ75 SP-01 shadow) a few years ago.
I shoot Wolf, Hornady Critical Defense, reloads... I have NEVER found a load it doesn't digest. I've tried different springs, with little noticeable difference.
It is my most reliable, accurate, and heaviest, pistol I own. I own at least five other 9mm's.
Something is wrong, but, from my experience, what is happening is an anomaly.

miles1
June 2, 2012, 08:51 AM
NIB CZ75???And thats what the seller claims?Interesting,I'm assuming that it needs to be cleaned maybe?

Walt Sherrill
June 2, 2012, 09:39 AM
nib cz75:

I've stumbled upon two of them, over the years, and a couple that were NEARLY new in box (clearly very limited use.)

It's a shame that the triggers on new 75Bs aren't as nice as new 75s.

All of them improve with use, but with a 75B, I just get trigger/action work done on new ones -- as I hate shooting a gun with a so-so trigger (when I know better is possible.)

The trigger work will probably costs no more than all the ammo needed to put 300-400 rounds through a gun (if done locally), and you get it shooting better, more quickly.

Tired_and_hungry
June 3, 2012, 02:17 AM
Gentlemen,

I think you for all the constructive ideas thus far. Other than the fact that my pistol has a wilson combat 15# recoil spring in place of the factory 14# spring, I will do the following at my next range trip and tell y'all how it went:

1) Field strip and hose down the internals with WD40.
2) Re-lube with high grade sewing machine lubrication oil.
3) Shoot 300 rds of WWB to test for reliability.

Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Kiln
June 3, 2012, 05:55 AM
Wow, now I'm wondering what I'm missing. The CZ75B I have became amazing after I fired about 1k rounds through it. Beats out my Springfield XDM now to be honest and I shot that for years very well.

Tired_and_hungry
June 8, 2012, 12:53 PM
Took my CZ75 out to attempt to reassure myself that it was not a complete unreliable waste of money. I started by applying WD40 on all internal contact surfaces, cleaning the extractor and then relubing with Breakfree CLP. Thereafter, I started testing the pistol by shooting consecutive 30 shot strings using the two 15rd mags that the gun came with. Ammo used is WWB 115gr 9mm. This is what happened:

First 60 rounds, no problems at all.
Felt confident that the problem lay with a dirty extractor and proceeded to swap out my 15# Wilson Combat recoil spring for the 14# factory recoil spring.
Next 30 rounds, no problems.
Next magazine of 15 rounds produced a FTE at the second round. At that point, I decided to discard the factory spring since it is defective and place the 15# aftermarket spring back into the pistol. The remaining 13 rounds were fired reliably but the second magazine of 15 rounds produced a FTE at the 5rd round. :fire:
Next 120 rounds, no problems.
Next 30 rounds, FTE at the 7th round.
Next 290 rounds, no problems.
Encountered a FTE during the 1st shot of the last 33 rounds I fired. :fire:

All in all, considering only the rounds I fired with the 15# wilson combat spring, I have a grand total of 3 FTEs in 561 rounds fired. Any idea what the issue is? I managed to experience periods of troublefree shooting during the 120 round and 290 batches mentioned above so I reckon my extractor and extractor spring can't really be the issue.

SharpsDressedMan
June 8, 2012, 03:04 PM
Start with replacing the extractor spring. A relatively cheap shot at troubleshooting, and then get back with us.

Walt Sherrill
June 8, 2012, 03:31 PM
Re: an extractor spring replacement is a good suggestion. CZ-USA will probably send you one free of charge; if not, you can buy one from Wolff Springs for a relatively small fee.

WD40 is not a particularly good cleaner or lubricant; I would avoid using it on an ongoing basis. It's primarily a mineral oil and was developed as a "water displacement" tool -- hence WD. If your gun takes a bath, WD-40 is a good way to get water out of niches, etc. (A hand-held hair dryer would do that, too.)

While WD-40 can function as a lubricant it can also, if left the surfaces on which it finds itself, create a varnish-like residue that will cause problems rather than solve them. Guns have been known to lock up with over-liberal applications and long rests. (Others will claim they've used it for years without problems; perhaps, but I won't use it for cleaning or lubrication.)

Note: unless you remove the extractor, or use air or solvent under pressure inside the slot where it rests when closed, you haven't really cleaned the extractor. Problems arise with dirt/grunge buildup under the body of the extractor arm -- which keeps it from closely with full force. The stronger spring suggested in the prior message overcomes that problem. Cleaning it out with compressed air or brake cleaner can also help, but can be messy.

JDGray
June 8, 2012, 03:45 PM
If a gun does not extract, it has to be an exractor related issue, nothing else is responsible for that function. How did you rule that out??

Get rid of the WD40, get a good grease like miltec, or gun oil for the job.;)

A tight chamber that is dirty, may give you an issue on extraction, but probably would give feeding issues too.

armoredman
June 8, 2012, 04:29 PM
CZ-USA won't send him an extractor spring - they don't ship out of country. I can try to send you one if I can get them to send me one.

I'm glad you didn't leave the WD 40 on - terrible lubricant. If you can get it over there, Weapon Shield is one I've found to work well.

593 rounds in one range trip? Wow. I don't even bring that much to the range. :o .0067% failure rate. I agree, it shouldn't be happening, though, since I've gone thousands of rounds with no issues. if you want that spring, PM and I'll see what I can do.

sixgunner455
June 8, 2012, 07:56 PM
You have 3 failures to extract in a brand new gun, in nearly 600 rounds. How is that a totally unreliable waste of money? I wouldn't stress too much. Change out the extractor spring, clean the extractor well, and go to shooting it some more.

Walt Sherrill
June 8, 2012, 09:20 PM
Also, examine the casings of any future rounds that fail extract. (As someone else wrote earlier, you've got an EXTRACTOR problem, and messing with recoil springs really isn't likely to do much of anything.) Recoil spring generally don't have anything to do with extraction problems. If there's a change with a one pound difference in springs, it's just coincidence, and not relevant.

Some time back, Winchester White Box ammo had an extractor groove that was shaped differently than other ammo, and CZs (and a few others guns) had problems with it -- and couldn't grasp the rim properly. The standard groove (from the side) looked like / while the WWB looked like <. (In both cases, the rim is on the bottom of the simulated extractor groove.)

It could be that you had a bad round or two. A stronger extractor spring is likely to be your solution, and CZ-BRNO should be able to help someone who can't do business with CZ-USA.

Weevil
June 9, 2012, 01:25 PM
This is common on older CZ75s and especially the early Witness pistols.


They are notorious for having weak springs.

Wolff gunsprings makes an extra power extractor spring and get a recoil spring a # or two stronger than stock.

I picked up an early model EA-9 the pre-Witness EAA 9mm. As is typical it had fail to extract issues. Put fresh springs in it and it's been 100% ever since. I went a # over on the recoil spring, but I tell you it sure felt like more than a # when I racked the slide.

The extra power extractor spring is a good idea but it's really the recoil spring that's the issue. The slide is very light on this design and with a weak spring it starts moving too fast. It actually moves so fast it pulls the extractor off the case which is still sticking as it exits the chamber, the slide gets to moving back faster than the case can be pulled out.

A heavier recoil spring slows down the slide velocity and gives the case more time to spring back to it's original size before trying to pull it out of the chamber.

Walt Sherrill
June 9, 2012, 03:06 PM
]The extra power extractor spring is a good idea but it's really the recoil spring that's the issue. The slide is very light on this design and with a weak spring it starts moving too fast. It actually moves so fast it pulls the extractor off the case which is still sticking as it exits the chamber, the slide gets to moving back faster than the case can be pulled out.

I disagree, but would love to hear a more technical explanation of why I might be wrong...

I don't think the extractor really knows whehter the slide is moving faster or slower; the extractor will be applying the SAME FORCE against the case rim with either recoil spring when gripping the case, regardless of the recoil spring used. If you can explain how SLIDE SPEED affects extractor function, I may be able to agree with your explanation of the solution.

The original poster DID try a heavier recoil spring and the problem wasn't resolved.

The OP also cleaned the extractor, but didn't change out the extractor spring. (He may have actually removed the extractor and cleaned behind it, removing gunk too, but that's a bit more involved, and I suspect he would have mentioned it if he had done that. (Blasting out that area with spray solvent or compressed air were the only things I found helpful until new springs became available.

I would argue that if the round isn't being stripped from the chamber, or is being dropped before it hits the ejector, it is almost certainly 1) a damaged extractor, 3) junk behind the extractor arm (in a CZ) not allowing the arm to press down with full force -- not possible with some of the clones, as that area opens into the firing pin channel in those guns -- or, 3) a weak extractor spring.

Wolff offered the heavier extractor spring solution first; CZ-USA sent out Wolff springs to those with extraction problems, not heavier recoil springs. They've apparently since gone to heavier extractor springs in their production guns.

A heavier hammer spring would work just as well as a heavier recoil spring, too, if your interpretation of the problem is correct.

A heavier recoil spring slows down the slide velocity and gives the case more time to spring back to it's original size before trying to pull it out of the chamber.

A heavier recoil spring gives cases more time for the round to SPRING BACK to its original size? Didn't know that cases did that... I do know that cases fired in Glock oversize chambers don't fit in some other guns. (Wonder why they don't spring back?)

SharpsDressedMan
June 9, 2012, 04:39 PM
I'm with Walt on this one.

Weevil
June 9, 2012, 05:44 PM
I disagree, but would love to hear a more technical explanation of why I might be wrong...

I don't think the extractor really knows whehter the slide is moving faster or slower; the extractor will be applying the SAME FORCE against the case rim with either recoil spring when gripping the case, regardless of the recoil spring used. If you can explain how SLIDE SPEED affects extractor function, I may be able to agree with your explanation of the solution.


I'm sure you're aware that there's a lot of pressure inside the case and this causes it to expand and press up against the walls of the chamber.

That's why you have a resizer die for reloading, to return the expanded case back to it's proper diameter after firing, because it expands when fired.

When the case is still hot from the burning gases and pressure it is at it's maximum diameter and pressed tightly against the chamber walls. Give it a few fractions of a second and a naturally malleable metal like brass will bounce back and try to come back to it's original size.

If the extractor doesn't care about slide velocity then why does it rip loose from the rim in the first place?

Yes indeed you have the "SAME FORCE" being applied by the extractor, but if the slide is moving faster then there will be more force to pull the extractor loose from the rim than on a slower moving slide. Any time you apply a fast sudden jerk you are more likely to pull something loose than a slow steady pull.


If the case is moving rearward at the same speed from the pressure there's no way the extractor will pull loose.


The original poster DID try a heavier recoil spring and the problem wasn't resolved.

Well in my case just changing the extractor spring didn't cure the problem. It helped. FTEs went from every other mag to maybe one in a 100 rounds but they still happened, after using a new recoil spring as well they stopped and I haven't had once since. Just changing one or the other isn't the answer both of the weak springs need changed.

This wasn't an experimemnt or an original thought a local smith gave me the suggestion because of problems he's had with CZ extraction issues. His idea was the slide velocity was too high due to the weak springs, and from my personal experiences I agree. YMMV



The OP also cleaned the extractor, but didn't change out the extractor spring. (He may have actually removed the extractor and cleaned behind it, removing gunk too, but that's a bit more involved, and I suspect he would have mentioned it if he had done that. (Blasting out that area with spray solvent or compressed air were the only things I found helpful until new springs became available.

Been there done that....didn't help.



I would argue that if the round isn't being stripped from the chamber, or is being dropped before it hits the ejector, it is almost certainly 1) a damaged extractor, 3) junk behind the extractor arm (in a CZ) not allowing the arm to press down with full force -- not possible with some of the clones, as that area opens into the firing pin channel in those guns -- or, 3) a weak extractor spring.

Well I did consider getting a new extractor, but tried stiffer springs first.

Glad I did because a new extractor is $40 and since changing out the springs it has worked perfectly.

If it were a damaged extractor or gunk why does it work perfectly now?

If it were just the extractor spring then why did I still get FTEs after changing it?



Wolff offered the heavier extractor spring solution first; CZ-USA sent out Wolff springs to those with extraction problems, not heavier recoil springs. They've apparently since gone to heavier extractor springs in their production guns.

I'm quite sure that the extractor springs were too weak.

As I said these early CZ and their clones had a reputation for weak springs.

So if they're using weak extractor springs what makes you think the recoil springs are any better?

As I'm sure you're aware the CZ type guns have a relatively small light slide, don't you suppose that a weak recoil spring could contribute to the problem?

I'm sure it was a whole lot cheaper for CZ to just send out new extractor springs that will usually cure the problem, than it was to also send out new recoil springs that combined with the extractor spring will definitely cure the problem. Most companies are usually looking for the cheapest solution, even if it doesn't cure everyone's problems.



A heavier hammer spring would work just as well as a heavier recoil spring, too, if your interpretation of the problem is correct.

That may well be.

I haven't tried it, have you?

It's a lot easier to change the recoil spring and it won't effect trigger pull.

It may work too, but you will wind up with a heavier trigger pull.

But I do know what worked for me and it didn't effect the trigger pull.



I didn't say to not change the extractor spring but I am saying that may not be the only problem caused by weak springs.

Walt Sherrill
June 9, 2012, 07:39 PM
When the case is still hot from the burning gases and pressure it is at it's maximum diameter and pressed tightly against the chamber walls. Give it a few fractions of a second and a naturally malleable metal like brass will bounce back and try to come back to it's original size.

While I don't find that explanation particularly convincing I welcome technical proofs for that argument. I'm not convinced that things happen as quickly as you claim or that brass, once stretched, tries to return to its pre-stretched state as quickly as would be needed to change extraction dynamics. You may be right, but I'd need more than anecdotal proof.

On the other hand... Your original argument would suggest, too, that hotter rounds with standard springs should have extraction problems -- but that typically isn't the case: the spent brass just goes farther.

And, yes, I have used heavier hammer springs in a gun to change slide performance. Most of the time, however, I go the other direction -- to LIGHTER hammer springs.

In a hammer-fired gun, a lighter hammer spring should have exactly the same effect on extraction as a lighter recoil spring -- because the hammer spring AND recoil spring, together, modulate slide movement and speed... That said, I've never had extraction problems after going to much lighter hammer springs. I've only had "ignition" problems.

1911Tuner, who participates here from time to time, as a demo of function, will run a 1911 without a recoil spring (using only a full-length guide rod). He shows that the gun will function as normal but doesn't feed the next round -- as there's no spring to close the slide. One of the points he's trying to make with that demonstration is that the recoil spring isn't really there to control or mute recoil, but to make the gun load the next round. He does this and shows that there's no damage to the gun or the shooter.

If weak springs cause extraction failures, 1911Tuner's guns running without a recoil spring shouldn't extract rounds very well; as far as I know, they do. Similarly, if less recoil damping (lighter springs) causes extraction failures, a much lighter hammer spring should also cause extraction failures. My experience -- and the experience of many other shooters -- suggests that it doesn't.

Weevil
June 9, 2012, 08:34 PM
Well you've also got to keep in mind the 1911 has a larger heavier slide than the CZ.

There's more mass to get moving so it is always gonna open slower than the CZ. Plus the .45acp is also a much lower velocity round than 9mm.

Just relating my own personal experiences.

If you don't agree fine, but it is food for thought for those having this problem.


As to hammer spring weights I have no idea as I never tried this method, but I do know that since I went to a new slightly heavier recoil spring and extractor spring the pistol functions flawlessly. I didn't go crazy the factory rated spring according to Wolff is 14 lb and I went with a 15 lb, although I did get an 18 lb also and was prepared to try this if the 15 didn't cure the problem.

If you have the correct recoil spring that is getting the slide opening time correct and holding back the slide velocity then it really shouldn't matter what hammer spring you use.

But since the extractor and recoil spring were all probably weak changing the hammer spring would have probably helped too.

However since changing to a new correct weight recoil spring and extractor spring solved the problem I didn't try changing the hammer spring, even though it too maybe weak and contributiong to the slide velocity problems.



Like I say it worked for me just like the smith who gave me the idea said it would.

Tired_and_hungry
June 12, 2012, 05:32 AM
I went to the range today with 400 rounds of 9mm WWB. I contacted a friend who is a CZ fanatic and he agreed to meet me there with a spare extractor and spring. To cut a long story short, I arrive at the range an hour before he did and not wanting to waste anytime, I started shooting.

On my second magazine of 15 rounds, I experienced an FTE and in response to this, I disassembled the extractor and extractor spring, hosed out the extractor spring and extractor crevice, cleaned both the spring and extractor and returned to shooting.

The clean-up only produced a 90 round trouble free period and thereafter, I experienced two FTEs, one stovepipe and a premature slide lock back spread out over 120 rounds. :fire:

Finally, my friend arrived with the extractor and spring for me and after I swapped out the old extractor and spring for the factory fresh ones, I shot a trouble free string of 164 rounds.

My question is:

Is 164 rounds enough to prove that the new extractor and spring are definative cures to my reliability problems? How many more rounds should I fire to be certain?

Also, does anyone here own the factory 26 round CZ magazine? Are the last 5 rounds really hard to insert?

Thompsoncustom
June 12, 2012, 05:42 AM
I wouldn't say that 164 rounds would be enough for me 500 is a better number but its a personal preference kind of thing. I don't have a 26rd mag but I would imagine the last round would get pretty hard to insert, I run CZcustom's ex-powered mag springs and they make it a little tougher.

When I first got my CZ 75b 2 years ago my only complaint was that it was under sprung, had to replace the extractor spring right away a long with the mag springs but after that it runs like a champ. I'm sure CZ-USA would have done it for free but I got the ex-powered springs for both the extractor and the mags now about 5k rounds later there still going strong.

solvability
June 12, 2012, 05:55 AM
Consider changing ammunition - I found my CZ to be unhappy with fast powders and light bullets which WWB has - perhaps try some 124 or 147g bullets and see how it goes.

Walt Sherrill
June 12, 2012, 09:24 AM
Winchester White Box, in years past, had a poor record with many CZ shooters. Look at the extractor groove on the ammo and see if it is as deep and as clean as other ammos; in the past it was not, and offered a less clean area for the extractor to grab. They may have changed the ammo a bit since many of us noticed that problem. (As noted earlier, the groove, at one time look like this < rather than /.)

Is 164 rounds evidence of no problem? Given your experience and doubt about the gun, clearly not -- or you wouldn't be asking. Shoot a couple more boxes through it, and keep the extractor groove are on the slide clean. You don't have to pull the extractor to do that. as brake cleaner (or compressed air) under pressure will keep it cleaned out.

The CZ 9mm gun was designed around the Sellier & Bellot 124 gr round. If you can find that, you'll find a good match.

(Note: I only had extraction problems with one or two of MANY CZs, over the years, and then only when shooting WWB. A new spring fixed those problems, but I found other ammo I liked better. I often shoot Blazer, and many CZ shooters have problem with it. I never have had problems.)

miles1
June 12, 2012, 04:59 PM
I went to the range today with 400 rounds of 9mm WWB. I contacted a friend who is a CZ fanatic and he agreed to meet me there with a spare extractor and spring. To cut a long story short, I arrive at the range an hour before he did and not wanting to waste anytime, I started shooting.

On my second magazine of 15 rounds, I experienced an FTE and in response to this, I disassembled the extractor and extractor spring, hosed out the extractor spring and extractor crevice, cleaned both the spring and extractor and returned to shooting.

The clean-up only produced a 90 round trouble free period and thereafter, I experienced two FTEs, one stovepipe and a premature slide lock back spread out over 120 rounds. :fire:

Finally, my friend arrived with the extractor and spring for me and after I swapped out the old extractor and spring for the factory fresh ones, I shot a trouble free string of 164 rounds.

My question is:

Is 164 rounds enough to prove that the new extractor and spring are definative cures to my reliability problems? How many more rounds should I fire to be certain?

Also, does anyone here own the factory 26 round CZ magazine? Are the last 5 rounds really hard to insert?
Ive had a factory new CZ 75B for maybe 3 weeks now.The 2 new mags i have are kinda stiff esp/ when loading the last few rounds.

A friend of mine said that he trusts a a gun if it shoots 100 rounds without an FTE/FTF.Personally for HD i would say 200-300 IMHO.Glad your CZ is working after a new extractor/spring.

JDGray
June 13, 2012, 05:21 AM
The premature slide lock can be fixed with a simple slide stop modification. The tips of the bullets are probably hitting the nub, and it will need to be clearanced. There is plenty of contact area for the mag follower to engage, but still be carefull to not take too much off.

edfrompa
July 19, 2012, 01:44 PM
Make sure the ramp on your firearm is clean and shiny. If the ramp is cruddy you will have FTF.

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