5.7x28 - gimmick or useful SD round?


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dubya450
June 1, 2012, 05:15 PM
I'm sure most of you know what the FN Five-seveN is and if anyone has knowledge about the 5.7x28 round I'd like to hear what you think about it. I picked up a Five-seveN a few months ago along with 1000 rounds and 2 extra mags from cabelas. I really think it's a cool gun, accurate, reliable, light and high capacity. I get alot of mixed opinions from friends/family and strangers at the range. Anything from its the best SD round available to its a useless gimmick (both of which I know aren't true) but what do you all think? Is it a worthy SD round or not? The 1000 rounds I picked up were the ss197 factory ammo with 40gr v-max bullet but i also ordered 50 Elite Ammunition's T6 55gr all copper round. I know there are probably better SD pistol's/calibers and i own many other pistol's from 9mm 10mm 45acp ect. just think the Five-seveN is a cool, different gun.

So, what's your view on the Five-seveN, or more specifically, the 5.7x28 round?

Cory

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Shipwreck
June 1, 2012, 05:20 PM
I have two PS90 carbines. I keep a lot of extra ammo. I will only shoot factory ammo, however. I do prefer the 197 over the 195 ammo.

I have owned other rifles in the past, but these are the only two I have now. I am satisfied with the guns and caliber, and I love the 50 round mags.

Realize, that EVERY 5.7 thread generally breaks down, with the same handful of guys who have no experience with the round coming to say how much it sucks. They seem to search out the mere mention of the caliber, and swoop down. After many years, I generally avoid these threads because they always end up the same. No one will ever agree.

Just do what you feel comfortable with.

Texan Scott
June 1, 2012, 05:25 PM
the five-seven was designed to be an effective, controllable FULL AUTO AP ROUND. If you can't have AP or full auto, it's kind of like .22 hornet repackaged for semi-autos. If it's what I had, i'd use it- and empty the mag. It'd be LETHAL, for sure; as a MANSTOPPER, it'd probably work in large numbers. Given that i'm likely to empty WHATEVER into my target no matter what, that's probably a non-issue for me.
Personally, i don't own semi-autos. I have in the past, and I'd LOVE to have another 10/22, but i don't. For hunting, i like lever guns; they're what i know.
If i had semi-autos in the stable, i suspect a 5.7 ballistic tip would be my feral cat round of choice. :evil:

Orion8472
June 1, 2012, 05:26 PM
You need to run a search on this topic because it has be hashed and rehashed more than it needs to be. There is no reason to start it all back up again.

What you will get are those who think it is "just a plinking round. . . and too expensive". Others will state that the round is a very viable round for SD. Others will exclaim it as the best round ever.

Bottom line is. . . . .search and find.

el Godfather
June 1, 2012, 05:27 PM
It is as useful as you want it to be.

longhair75
June 1, 2012, 05:28 PM
I handled one at the last gun show, and it felt pretty light. What is the recoil like? It would seem to me that it be pretty heavy.

dubya450
June 1, 2012, 05:34 PM
The recoil is very controllable. With a good grip and stance you can stay on target through rapid fire and still group good. Personally I'd say its 50% of the recoil my glock 19 has. Other people may think more or less but either way the felt recoil just isn't there really.

Skribs
June 1, 2012, 05:44 PM
If the 5.7x28mm is a "glorified .22", then the .357 magnum is a glorified .380.

Honestly, the 5.7x28mm imitates rifle capabilities in a pistol package. It comes in a light gun, has light recoil, and has a wound channel bigger than what caliber alone would suggest. And it comes with a bigger flush magazine than any 9mm handgun out there. It does more than just work well full-auto and pierce armor, the energy dump causes enough cavitation trauma to increase the size of the wound channel, and low recoil is good for semi-auto as well.

On the other hand, there is not a lot of support for the 5.7 yet (its only available in a single-action or a few noname-brand models), there isn't much ammo availability, people don't like reloading bottlenecked cases, and it is loud. Most of these are availability issues as opposed to engineering issues. There's also the problem of the velocity when using it at some pistol ranges (since it functions more like a rifle round) and lack of ammo commonality with a smaller gun (I can get a LC9 and XD9 and use the same ammo in both).

I think the 5.7x28mm is a great round, and it would have a significant amount of success if another well-known manufacturer (HK, Sig, Beretta, Glock, Springfield, S&W, Ruger, etc) would come out with a few models to spruce up the interest, and more ammunition for this caliber were produced. As it is, it is in sort of a flux where people don't want it due to availability, and it's not available because people don't want it.

In short, it is definitely a good SD round.

G|0cKbYtE
June 1, 2012, 06:24 PM
I own a Five-seveN and have carried it for well over a year now. I have also participated in some of the forum's exhaustive caliber debates already alluded to. I would recommend you do a search and read through a couple. It will be enlightening for sure.

As far as your original question; the Five-seveN - like many other pistol calibers - will be just as effective as your aim. The Five-seveN is a pistol, it isn't a death ray. If you shoot somebody in an extremity like the arm, their arm will break, but they won't die.

The good news is, you have 21 shots to hit the "off button" which is the central nervous system. The gun also exhibits very light recoil relative to other common pistol calibers allowing faster shots on target from less than professional shooters.

If you have some of EA's new T6 rounds, then you have some of the nastiest Five-seveN rounds available. Any threat to you will not be safe behind car doors, Level IIIa body armor, or other barriers that stop many other pistol rounds. Just aim for center mass and the gun will do the rest.

TimboKhan
June 1, 2012, 07:00 PM
Fellow high roaders

Feel free to discuss this, but make sure it stays civil. For whatever reason this round brings out the worst in posters. It's just a round, not a reason to resort to zealotry, so keep it civil and factual, please!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

G|0cKbYtE
June 1, 2012, 07:44 PM
No kidding! I'm almost convinced that discussions regarding the 5.7 platform should be treated like religion and politics and relegated to a separate part of the forum. It's that bad.

Several small forums heavily populated with law enforcement are abnormally set against the platform. But if you think about it, they probably have a point. The Five-seveN in the wrong hands could be a problem due to its unique characteristics. Fortunately, we still have a bit of the 2nd amendment left declaring our rights to protect ourselves from threats - including the government.

Cosmoline
June 1, 2012, 07:54 PM
I'd be interested in seeing the differences in actual performance in gel and other media between 5.7 from the pistol vs. 5.7 from the rifle. Out of a rifle, even a .22 LR can have impressive results.

dubya450
June 1, 2012, 08:15 PM
Not that i wish anyone to be shot or have to shoot someone but I'd like to see the real life statistics of actual man stopping power of the 5.7x28 as far as police who use weapons chambered for the round. I have heard that its a pretty nasty varmit load though! it just hasn't been popular enough yet to see major use I guess.

ClickClickD'oh
June 1, 2012, 08:21 PM
Instead of relying on the internet, I just shot some dead pigs with my 5.7 (they come free with the ranch). I'm entirely confident in the performance of the 5.7x28mm round after having done so.

G|0cKbYtE
June 1, 2012, 08:39 PM
Instead of relying on the internet, I just shot some dead pigs with my 5.7 (they come free with the ranch). I'm entirely confident in the performance of the 5.7x28mm round after having done so.

Please share your pictures or notes if you have any. I have a lot of pictures and statements saved of people who have taken game with the 5.7 platform.

Edit: I just noticed you said "dead pigs". I take that to mean they weren't live when you shot them? :)

beex215
June 1, 2012, 08:39 PM
looks to be an interesting round and ive always wanted a ps90 sbr. looks to be a very fun toy to play with. its rather expensive for the weapons that chamber that round though.

G|0cKbYtE
June 1, 2012, 08:41 PM
Not that i wish anyone to be shot or have to shoot someone but I'd like to see the real life statistics of actual man stopping power of the 5.7x28 as far as police who use weapons chambered for the round. I have heard that its a pretty nasty varmit load though! it just hasn't been popular enough yet to see major use I guess.

If you do a search of my name in this forum you will stumble into several extremely comprehensive threads providing exactly what you asked for.

EddieNFL
June 1, 2012, 08:54 PM
I'm almost convinced that discussions regarding the 5.7 platform should be treated like religion and politics and relegated to a separate part of the forum.

Where is that?

G|0cKbYtE
June 1, 2012, 09:04 PM
I don't know if this forum has a separate place for religion and politics, but many do. That way those that aren't interested in all the bickering can just avoid all the discussions easily.

TimboKhan
June 1, 2012, 09:06 PM
He is joking. THR does not have religion or politics forum.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

dubya450
June 1, 2012, 09:33 PM
G|OcKbYtE I just read through some of it, thats a pretty good thread. That was a few months before i joined this forum. SORRY to all who have to be bored by yet another 5-7 thread, I should have checked the archives first. :)

zoom6zoom
June 1, 2012, 09:44 PM
Not that i wish anyone to be shot or have to shoot someone but I'd like to see the real life statistics of actual man stopping power of the 5.7x28 as far as police who use weapons chambered for the round.
Fort Hood.

sturmgewehr
June 1, 2012, 09:58 PM
Is it a worthy SD round or not? The 1000 rounds I picked up were the ss197 factory ammo with 40gr v-max bullet but i also ordered 50 Elite Ammunition's T6 55gr all copper round. I know there are probably better SD pistol's/calibers and i own many other pistol's from 9mm 10mm 45acp ect. just think the Five-seveN is a cool, different gun.
With the VMAX bullet you might get 7" of penetration before the bullet completely explodes into tiny fragments in soft tissue - far short of what most people would deem to be acceptable performance for self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDQmmqszUmY

The Elite Ammo loads would be much better suited for defensive carry. Do I think it's an ideal cartridge for defensive carry? No. But is it ineffective? It will put a hole in someone which is all that's required. As long as it penetrates 12"-18" of soft tissue and the bullet maintains its mass (doesn't explode into tiny bits), it's good to go.

I think most people that carry it do so because it's interesting and new - it has a certain novelty to it. Others like to carry a proven round with proven ammo and won't stray from that path. Which is right? Who knows. Do what flops your mop, it's your life to live! :D

LightningMan
June 2, 2012, 12:05 AM
I personally think the SS197 round is watered down, and not up to the cartridges potental. Elite Ammuntion, is loaded quite to the max, as they advise not to reload the emptys. I know as I had some Super Raptors, S4 cases, which expanded enough that they would no longer fit in the shell holder or even hold a primer in place. Plus EA is expensive, and you may have to wait a while to get it. I myself prefer to reload, I can get better performance than the SS197 and even if I load to the max of published data, I can still get 2 maybe 3 loadings out of the brass, before it's no good. LM

barnbwt
June 2, 2012, 01:10 AM
The 5.7 is controversial in gun circles as an extension of the epic/ongoing "Momentum v. Energy Wars" everyone seems to take sides on. The 5.7 is pretty much the fastest, littlest bullet out there (that is still pistol-able), and that bugs the hell out of folks who believe damage comes from mass (not speed). If there was a super heavy, super slow round that would still fit in a pistol (.45 long colt cowboy load?) similar bashing would probably come from the 5.7 and magnum guys.

Myself, I'm a hot-rodder. I own a Five-seven, a .357 Magnum, and a CZ-52. Those are all well on the side of Energy as opposed to momentum, as far as ballistics (yes, .357 is more flexible in this regard.) I personally find sharper, shorter recoil more controllable in handguns. I feel like the bulk of my mass is pushed around less after each shot (momentum).

However, my taste is opposite in rifles, I prefer slower, heavy bullets. Unlike pistol shooting, your elbows don't really absorb much energy before the impulse meets your (relatively) fixed shoulder, so your tissue must dissipate the momentum transfer directly (ouch). Though a slow, heavy round hurts, the impact is softened by duration, your "fixed" shoulder is better suited to soaking up momentum than a skinny arm (well, mine anyway). My next rifles will be 7.62x39 and 45-70. I currently have. 308s, but I have come to the conclusion their high-speed flat trajectories are unnecessary for the distances I shoot.

Ultimately, to claim energy or momentum to be paramount is silly, since the same two terms (mass and velocity) show up in the equations for both, they are two sides of the same coin. An infinitely heavy bullet cannot move, and can do no harm. A completely weightless bullet will come to rest instantly without penetrating, and can do no harm. In my completely unqualified opinion, I think we crossed a threshold with smokeless powder, where any centerfire round has the energy and momentum to be effective, and the argument is therefore moot. Let's instead debate whether a flared-end on your Blunderbuss improves your patterns!;)

It's a personal preference thing, and you won't know where you stand until you shoot a five-seven, and satisfy your interest in its capabilities. Personally, I have found my arms are better at quickly dissipating energy without losing my sights, than my overall stance is at recovering from momentum transfer. I chose rounds that fit me best :cool: (but boy are they LOUD! :D)

TCB

PS: "He is joking. THR does not have religion or politics forum." Coulda fooled me...:D

PPS: Forgot to answer the OP's question: Both. It's a bullet, it will maim or kill depending on what it hits. The real truth of the 5.7x28 round is satisfying to neither the fanboys nor the haters. Reality rarely is.

HKGuns
June 2, 2012, 01:12 AM
I've read both theories on this subject and I think it is similar to the debate around the 5.56 being ineffective. When you consider the velocity and that the round will tumble once it hits soft tissue......I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with one. Until I purchased this pistol I owned only 9mm and 45ACP. (Not a revolver guy) I don't feel under gunned with this pistol.

Recoil is about 1/2 of a run of the mill 9mm and it holds 20 rounds. The drawbacks are that the rounds are "somewhat" expensive and can be hard to find. All of this and the pistol is "REALLY" light weight. The increased effective range of the round is also a factor to consider.

I have pretty small hands and the large grip is just about all I can handle, but it is a necessity because of the size of the rounds.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v53/p593300868-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v47/p580903971-5.jpg

dubya450
June 2, 2012, 01:18 AM
Man the black ones are sharp! I chose a FDE one because it was the only one I've seen locally in the 3 years I've seen the Five-seveN around. Thinking about getting a black one too but I'm trying to save up for a Colt Special Combat Government 1911. Decisions...

HKGuns
June 2, 2012, 01:20 AM
I agree dubya, I fondled both and liked the black a "lot" better.

barnbwt
June 2, 2012, 01:47 AM
Flat-Dark-Earth is so "2010" :rolleyes:;) That's why I got my Five-seveN in Black. It's a Tuxedo gun! Plus, I got a sweet black leather Galco OWB duty-style holster "free" with the purchase (decent deal on the pistol itself, too.)

As far as the grip size (the primary complaint I feel is "legitimate" about the platform), I wish someone would make a pistol with a more swept back grip. I would think that could reduce the finger reach somewhat. Oh, and the stupid magazine safety that FNH added so the pistols could be imported (at least, that's what I heard). It will always freak me out a little having to put a mag in and then pull the trigger to decock (no decocking lever).

Although, I still say a single-stack, crazy-thin pistol would make the best use of the round's capabilities (.5" thick 10-shot, anyone?)

Oh, and a quickie review of my pistol for anyone interested: ~300 rounds, only one malfunction of any sort, but a show-stopper. The stupid, cheap, paper-clip-like mag release spring got snagged on a protruding bullet tip and came out. Without a tensioned mag release, the magazine wouldn't stay in (without my hand holding it in), and because of the mag safety, the gun couldn't fire. Very first trip to the range. To their credit, FNH came through big-time; they sent a new (and improved) flat-leaf un-snag-able replacement spring, as well as a replacement mag-release button (which I didn't need, but gladly accept). Apparently very early Five-seveN's had plastic mag catches/buttons that could wear down over time, thus the metal replacement. To reiterate, FNH responded to a design flaw by replacing a defective part not with more of the same crud, but with an improved design. I wish every manufacturer would do this.

TCB

dubya450
June 2, 2012, 01:56 AM
Eventually ill pick up a black one and bury the FDE one somewhere to stash for when the ATF bans the pistol lol. Btw it may be absurd but is that something that is possible? The banning of 5-7's? Something thats crossed my mind before with all the ignorance in the media.

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 02:03 AM
I've said it before, and I think FiveTwoSeven has something similar in his sig, I'm waiting for FN to make a DAO or striker-fired variant, or Springfield/Ruger/Glock/S&W to make one. I know I left Taurus off the list, but after seeing pictures of a FiveseveN KB, I don't want Taurus to make one.

mljdeckard
June 2, 2012, 02:09 AM
Shoot what you want. What am I, the tactical soundness sheriff?

I wouldn't use it, I subscribe to the cavity trauma theory. Bigger holes.

Having said that, if I had to use one for one reason or another, I would probably try to take advantage of the high capacity and low recoil, and see how many little holes I could make center-of-mass in the shortest possible time.

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 02:13 AM
I wouldn't use it, I subscribe to the cavity trauma theory. Bigger holes.

That's the thing. The fiveseven does its damage with cavitation trauma. The bullet is traveling fast enough to cause the stretch cavity to expand beyond the tissue's elastic point, thus increasing the size of the wound. It is why the 5.7 is even viable compared to the 9mm.

It's a big reason why rifle rounds (be it the 5.56/5.45mm variety or the larger 7.62mm variaty) cause bigger holes than pistol rounds (which are 9-11.43mm).

Dr.Rob
June 2, 2012, 02:20 AM
It's a very flat shooting pistol from everything I've seen. That makes it interesting. Top Shot made me want one.. the darn things are spendy though.

barnbwt
June 2, 2012, 02:26 AM
...when the ATF bans the pistol lol

Ugh, not that old chestnut :banghead: (not your fault, it would've come up eventually anyway, always does...these threads really are repetitive:))

They might as well have banned the things; the ignoramuses are so ginned up over the 5.7 that we're scared use them for self-defense, and "ban-gouging" drove prices so high that would-be buyers became disgusted with the whole thing. There's nothing worse than uncertainty. For everybody.:mad:

"...You better buy one-uh-these quick, ya-know, Oh-Bama's gunna ban'em soon" :barf::barf::barf: Bet they'll still use that line when he's been out for 5 years, a better driver of gun-sales there never was...

TCB

mljdeckard
June 2, 2012, 02:47 AM
I'm sure it can cause cavity trauma. I'm still sticking to my .45 HSTs.

flyskater
June 2, 2012, 03:35 AM
If it can take down a 200+ lb piggy with one shot at 50 years, I think it can take down a person.
The 5.7 thrives on the type of ammo used. Most of the 5.7 rounds that are available to civilians are watered down. Elite makes the best ammo for this round.
I love my hot loaded 10mm, but if I can acquire my target faster while maintaing accuracy than any handgun, I'll take a 5.7

Pete D.
June 2, 2012, 05:13 AM
This,so far, has been the most reasonable and even handed discussion of the 5.7 and it's pistol that I have read in years.
I like the pistol....a varmint rifle that fits in my pocket.

Pete

ClickClickD'oh
June 2, 2012, 10:14 AM
Please share your pictures or notes if you have any. I have a lot of pictures and statements saved of people who have taken game with the 5.7 platform.

Edit: I just noticed you said "dead pigs". I take that to mean they weren't live when you shot them?

Sorry, didnt' think to take pictures. And yes, they already had a run in with a .45-70. I'm a little off, but I'm not quite yet up to hunting hogs in thick cedars with a handgun.

bluetopper
June 2, 2012, 11:48 AM
I'd like to see a list of handguns that are available in the 5.7x28 caliber. It always has perked my interest.

They should make one in a 1911 platform.

If I got one I would have to reload for it as I don't buy factory ammo.

dubya450
June 2, 2012, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure but i haven't heard of any other pistol's using the 5-7 round. I wish there were though. I know you can buy AR57 uppers but other than that, again, I'm not sure. It would be cool to get the upper and some FMJ rounds for my future bobcat hunt though!

Something I want to mention before i forget to. Does anyone else love the placement of the manual safety on the Five-seveN? I find it to be very ergonomic especially when drawing from a holster. My finger is right on the safety from draw, a quick flick and I'm on the trigger if need be.

barnbwt
June 2, 2012, 01:53 PM
I too like the safety position; it reinforces good trigger discipline as well as giving a tactial indication of the safety setting. Mine is slightly harder to flip than I would like, more due to not having much of a safety lever to push (the thing is nearly flush).

I think FNH actually made a DA version of the Five-seveN early on. It had a decocker as well, I think (Wikipedia). Wiki also says the grip profile is the same as an M9, so I suppose we shouldn't be asking why the FNH's grip is so long, but the Beretta's.:scrutiny:

They should make one in a 1911 platform.

Just think how thin they could make one of these as a single stack 5.7...

Some alternatives to the Five-seveN are the ST Kinetics CPW (top) and VBR-QCBM (bottom). :barf: I don't think either are for sale (methinks FNH is being stingy with licensing/design assistance to outside companies attempting to use this cartridge)

TCB

PabloJ
June 2, 2012, 02:07 PM
I'm sure most of you know what the FN Five-seveN is and if anyone has knowledge about the 5.7x28 round I'd like to hear what you think about it. I picked up a Five-seveN a few months ago along with 1000 rounds and 2 extra mags from cabelas. I really think it's a cool gun, accurate, reliable, light and high capacity. I get alot of mixed opinions from friends/family and strangers at the range. Anything from its the best SD round available to its a useless gimmick (both of which I know aren't true) but what do you all think? Is it a worthy SD round or not? The 1000 rounds I picked up were the ss197 factory ammo with 40gr v-max bullet but i also ordered 50 Elite Ammunition's T6 55gr all copper round. I know there are probably better SD pistol's/calibers and i own many other pistol's from 9mm 10mm 45acp ect. just think the Five-seveN is a cool, different gun.

So, what's your view on the Five-seveN, or more specifically, the 5.7x28 round?

Cory
Very useful when coupled with the SS190 cartridge. I passed on boxed second-hand pistol at last lgs. The price was $750 cash which is the lowest I have seen for little used specimen.

dubya450
June 2, 2012, 02:13 PM
Agreed, a single stack compact would be nice but I'm not sure if one is plausible. I'm no expert but i thought I've heard the timing with the 5-7 is very tricky and why its not a good idea to reload for it. I thought Ive seen on the Five-seveN forum someone was explaining why a compact version couldn't work properly. It was probably at 3am so i don't remember for sure.

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 02:50 PM
From what I understand, I don't think a short-barrel fiveseven would be a good idea, because you take away the advantage (velocity). Out of a compact-size barrel the fiveseven WOULD be a glorified .22. As it is, it only maintains the "rifle threshold" (I'm calling it) where most experts say the tissue stretching is enough to cause an increase in the PWC.

The problem with those off-brand 5.7 pistols is 1) they're uglier than a last call pickup, and 2) we don't know much about them - they could be very well made by an up-and-comer, or they could be junk. We don't know, and not knowing makes us not want to get them.

G|0cKbYtE
June 2, 2012, 08:59 PM
Shoot what you want. What am I, the tactical soundness sheriff?

I wouldn't use it, I subscribe to the cavity trauma theory. Bigger holes.

Having said that, if I had to use one for one reason or another, I would probably try to take advantage of the high capacity and low recoil, and see how many little holes I could make center-of-mass in the shortest possible time.

Just a couple comments on the "cavity trauma theory":

Let's start with the size of a 9mm bullet vs a 5.7mm bullet. The 5.7mm bullet is .224 inches wide (the same as NATO 5.56 which I'm sure everybody is familiar with). A 9mm bullet is .355 inches wide. That comes to one hundred thirty-one thousandths difference which is roughly equal to the size of the following underscore mark _. As you can see, we are dealing with very small measurements.

"But wait!" you say, "You're not taking into account the expansion of a modern hollowpoint round!" I didn't mention the fact that the 5.7mm hollowpoint is nearly an inch long and consistently tumbles after penetration either.

Dr. Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 40 years experience in his field is recognized by numerous independent sources as the nation's leading authority on gunshot wounds. Drawing on his experience and credibility, he illustrates how illogical the common obsession with bullet diameter and/or expansion is, and stresses shot placement and medical response time as being much more critical in the following quotes:

"One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet."


"Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."


"There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet."


"In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 09:09 PM
Glockbyte, the problem with the comments made by that doctor is that it wouldn't matter then if you used the 5.7 or the 9mm, because the different wound tract wouldn't make a difference. I agree there is no objective "proof" (because there never will be without extensive testing), but obviously a bigger hole will cause the target to bleed out faster.

You are right, ignoring cavitation, the tumbling effect creates a large wound tract. But a rectangle that is 0.23"x1" has a surface area of 0.23"^2 (rounding up a bit here, of course). A circle that is 0.6" (an average expanded size for a 9mm) has a surface area of 0.29"^2 *again, rounding up to the nearest hundredth). That means there is a difference of about 26% in favor of the 9mm if you ignore the cavitation trauma. Still, to be objective, you can't ignore that, and I think the 5.7 wins out.

G|0cKbYtE
June 2, 2012, 09:56 PM
Human tissue is extremely elastic. Most of the tissue closes back down as the projectile passes through. That is why it is so important to hit vital areas. You can literally fill a person with lead (.45, .40, 9mm, 5.7, 4.6, etc.), and if you don't hit something vital, and they are highly motivated, the fight will continue.

Survival is dependent upon the speed at which a victim receives medical care.

Stopping a fight immediately requires a shot to the central nervous system or the attacker having a change of heart.

You could literally have the #!$@ beaten out of you before your attacker collapses from blood loss due to numerous non-vital gun shot wounds.

mljdeckard
June 2, 2012, 10:10 PM
You are comparing first with 9mm NATO, which is the worst pistol round you can get. And you have SOME people who say that it will or may tumble and do more damage. I'll STILL stick to my .45 HSTs. It is one theory and obviously the rest of the world hasn't agreed with it yet.

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 10:29 PM
9mm NATO is the worst pistol round you can get? I'd have thought .380 ACP, .38 SPL, .32 ACP, .25 ACP, .22 LR (or anything .22 rimfire) were all worse than that.

The comparisons to 9mm NATO are because it is the closest to what the five-seven is in other areas, namely recoil and capacity (which a lot of people believe are more important than caliber, and the 5-7 has it beat in both areas). Compare it to a .45 and you have at least 33% more capacity (compared with FNP 45) and significantly less recoil.

MachIVshooter
June 3, 2012, 12:10 AM
It's not a "gimmick", but in the Five-seveN platform, I don't consider it a serious self defense round either. The cartridge was created for a very specific purpose in a specific weapon, and that cartridge/bullet/weapon combo performs as designed. Handicap the ammo and then further diminish it's performance by putting it into a short handgun barrel, and now you have what is, IMO, an expensive plinker.

That's the thing. The fiveseven does its damage with cavitation trauma. The bullet is traveling fast enough to cause the stretch cavity to expand beyond the tissue's elastic point

No, it's really not. Around 2,000 FPS is where we see that effect start to factor in, but it does not really become a reliable wounding mechanism until you get over 2,500-2,600 FPS. There is a great deal of information out there showing how dramatically decreased the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO is once velocity drops below that point.

Even the hottest botique 5.7mm ammo barely gets into the 2,500 FPS range from the Five-seveN pistol. Most loads are 1,800-2,000 FPS.

That comes to one hundred thirty-one thousandths difference which is roughly equal to the size of the following underscore mark _.

Dude, you need a micrometer or a set of feeler gauges. .130" is more than 1/8", which is about the height of a capitalized letter character on most screens. The underscore is more like 0.008".

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 12:20 AM
No, it's really not. Around 2,000 FPS is where we see that effect start to factor in, but it does not really become a reliable wounding mechanism until you get over 2,500-2,600 FPS. There is a great deal of information out there showing how dramatically decreased the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO is once velocity drops below that point.

It always factors in, in the form of the temporary wound channel, 2000 FPS is the threshold where it starts breaking the elastic point. The thing about the 5.56 is the military ammo doesn't reliably fracture below 2700 FPS, which is why the M4 isn't good out past 300 yards (but the M16 is) and just zips through, creating a smaller wound channel.

Dude, you need a micrometer or a set of feeler gauges. .130" is more than 1/8", which is about the height of a lower case letter character on most screens. The underscore is more like 0.008".

I think he meant width, not height of the underscore, and that will be different based on screen size/resolution. But I agree, 0.13 inches (easier stated as "thirteen hundredths" than "one-hundred-thirty thousandths) isn't a small difference. 0.13 inches is bigger than the difference between 9mm and .45. But, the yawing aspect adds to the size of the wound channel before cavitation is factored in, and the damage by the cavitation makes up for it.

HKGuns
June 3, 2012, 12:32 AM
You are comparing first with 9mm NATO, which is the worst pistol round you can get.

Somebody just lost all credibility. I like 45ACP as much as the next person, but to call 9mm the worst pistol round you can get is simply not true.

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 12:32 AM
Ok. It's magical. It's the next new thing. It is to ballistics what Glock is to pistol design.

I don't consider anything smaller than a 9mm a service pistol round. (And for you pocket pistol fans, save it.) And actually, there are now a lot of .380 rounds that will outperform a 9mm NATO. As for recoil......I guess I just picked up a .45 and never had a problem with it. But even in that direct comparison, I'm going to trust the 15+1 147 gr HSTs in my XD-9.

Call it a feeling, in ten years, It won't have MORE of the market share than it has now. If I'm wrong, you can hold it up in front of my face.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 12:38 AM
Ml, whether or not you're right depends entirely on what other manufacturers decide. If FN is still the only one to make it, you're right. If others decide to take the plunge and design a new frame for their models to house the round, then you will most likely be wrong.

Like I said, there's a lot of people on the fence about it, and the price/availability of the gun and the ammo, as well as the lack of options for the caliber (your only option from a known manufacturer is a single-action with safety, I don't see DA/SA, DAO, or Striker variants), is what is really holding people back from getting it. When more guns are made for it, more ammo will be made for it, prices will drop, and people will actually get it.

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 12:39 AM
I don't consider anything smaller than a 9mm a service pistol round.


By that standard, a NATO 556 is too small for you.

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 12:46 AM
I said SERVICE PISTOL ROUND.

I really don't think there are that many people on the fence. It's been several years, it's not a secret. If it hasn't caught on yet, what will make the difference?

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 12:49 AM
I said SERVICE PISTOL ROUND.

That didn't escape me, I even quoted it.

If a pistol could be made with it, by the standard you set - the NATO 556 wouldn't be good enough for you.

Point is, the caliber isn't the only factor. Clearly rounds smaller in diameter than a 9mm can vastly out perform it.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 12:55 AM
A 5.56 pistol wouldn't be a very good service round in an AR pistol. To low velocity for military ammo (below 2700 FPS it doesn't reliably fracture).

Nothing smaller than 9mm is a service pistol round, but the original comment in post #49 was that it is the worst pistol round. While it is the weakest, I'd hardly say it's the worst. There are redeeming qualities to the 9 over the .40 or .45 (hence why many people use it).

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 12:58 AM
I never said that. And as MachIV pointed out, there's a big difference in how a given bullet performs from a 5.7 shell casing and a 5.56 shell casing, or a pistol barrel or a rifle barrel. 5.56 NATO does a LOT of damage for the size of bullet it is. But that performance drops way off out of shorter barrels and with lower velocity. I can deliver a lot more accurate fire with an M-4 at greater distances. I plan on hitting targets repeatedly.

On the other hand, if I were hunting game the same size as a human, I would want a round that is going to do the job decisively with one good hit. The reason there are so many different cartridges, even for the same bullet, is that there are many different applications. No one but YOU was comparing a 9mm pistol round to a 5.56 rifle round.

barnbwt
June 3, 2012, 01:02 AM
Around 2,000 FPS is where we see that effect start to factor in

the hottest botique 5.7mm ammo barely gets into the 2,500 FPS range

So, the 5.7x28 should be capable of at least some of the "cavitation" damage that was mentioned, right? Even if not terribly reliably? That's still a pretty unique ability among current pistol calibers, you'd have to admit, and implies the round does more damage (potentially) than its small size would indicate.

Now, whether that increased damage is worth the trouble, is a question I can't answer or take opinion on without an expensive scientific study just yet. Since I don't have one of those, and I'm a gun-optimist, I give the 5.7 the benefit of the doubt, knowing that it will at least seriously mess up an attacker if I do my part. The fact I can shoot well with it justifies that decision (is that good logic? :o)

I'm sure it can cause cavity trauma. I'm still sticking to my .45 HSTs.
I commend you on your choice of caliber, since you appear to have put real thought into the decision. I believe the 5.7x28 is a viable round for most SD scenarios, since I have satisfied myself of its ability to inflict sufficient damage. Let's all of us hold hands and join in some swaying... :D

Having said that, since we're now treading into the more, "esoteric" traits of the round (wounding mechanics, soon to be followed by psi/velocity quotes, and the Fort Hood Shooting, I'm sure), the conversation will most likely become more heated, and less relevant to interested shooters :(. I'd just like to thank everyone so far for providing good, chill commentary on this undeniably interesting round and its platforms :). Always good to hear there is still interest in it, even if it provokes strong opinions in people.

Hopefully the OP is now up to speed on what the 5.7x28 is all about, and can make an informed decision about which side of the "pitched battle" they will be on ;). Try to keep it civil; there is a lot of good info on this thread that people will refer back to...

TCB

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 01:09 AM
The reason there are so many different cartridges, even for the same bullet, is that there are many different applications..

Agreed. Like multiple targets (21rds) or targets with bullet proof vests....

barnbwt
June 3, 2012, 01:10 AM
I don't consider anything smaller than a 9mm a service pistol round.

Pretty sure MLJ was referring to the relative "power" brought to bear by the 9mm, not the bullet's physical size, right? I think the 5.7 catridge is at the extreme limit for pistols, as far as overall length is concerned. But it's narrow profile is at the minimum, allowing for extremely high capacity. The round is literally the polar opposite of the .45ACP, which also gets frequent grip-size complaints. Go figure. I'm not saying that the Five-seveN is as powerful/effective as a .45 pistol, I'm saying it's intended for a different role, despite also being a large sized pistol.

If I am engaging something that 8+1 won't solve, or people actually wearing armor, NO PISTOL is going to save me.

Amen

TCB

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 01:16 AM
I never said that. And as MachIV pointed out, there's a big difference in how a given bullet performs from a 5.7 shell casing and a 5.56 shell casing, or a pistol barrel or a rifle barrel. 5.56 NATO does a LOT of damage for the size of bullet it is. But that performance drops way off out of shorter barrels and with lower velocity. I can deliver a lot more accurate fire with an M-4 at greater distances. I plan on hitting targets repeatedly.

Like I said, the reason the 5.56 is poor below 2700 FPS has to do with how the bullet fragments, and not the cavitation trauma. 2000 FPS is where you start to notice the difference that the cavitation makes. Even if its only slight at 2000-2200, it is there, and enough to catch up to some of the larger service calibers.

But the benefit of the 5.7 isn't that it makes a big hole (although it makes a bigger one than the caliber would suggest), it's how fast you can get follow-up shots on target.

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 01:18 AM
If I am engaging something that 8+1 won't solve, or people actually wearing armor, NO PISTOL is going to save me.

The possibility of bad guys in body armor is so small, it doesn't factor into my plan. Where the heck do you live? Even when I was at war, wearing body armor and trauma plates, I never expected to encounter bad guys in body armor. If I REALLY think I'm facing bad guys in body armor I actually plan to shoot, I'm not grabbing a pistol at all.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 02:48 AM
If I am engaging something that 8+1 won't solve, or people actually wearing armor, NO PISTOL is going to save me.

Not true at all. If you are in a situation where 8+1 won't solve, you might just need a few more. Considering how many shots are likely to hit an attacker, and how reliable any pistol is at stopping on one hit, if you have three attackers, you might need more than 8+1 to end the confrontation. I'm not saying you're wrong for carrying only 8, but it is very easily possible that if 8 isn't enough, another 8 might be.

On the other part, armor: there are armor-piercing rounds for most common handgun calibers, including the 9mm. They work better in something like a .357 Sig or a larger (heavier) bullet, but the speed at which the FiveseveN moves gives it a lot of potential if you use an armor-piercing round.
If you don't have armor-piercing rounds, then yeah, you're smegged. But if you have them, any gun will work, some just do it easier.

However, you are right in that the majority of situations, you probably don't need more than 8+1 rounds. That doesn't stop me from wanting as many as I can get. If I were carrying a .45, I'd go for the 13-round pistols. I'm looking at 17 with a 9.

flyskater
June 3, 2012, 03:05 AM
Here's the glorified 22 at work on a pistol.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n314/sylvester1498/Hog%20Dec%202010/2010-12-02_12-47-12_153.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5519/dsc00665at.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4278/newimagesk.jpg

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 03:09 AM
Today I was carrying 14+1. I carry extra magazines to be able to clear a malfunction. Not for more rounds. I keep a rifle in my truck pretty much everywhere. The purpose of my pistol is to get me back to it.

Ash
June 3, 2012, 09:35 AM
22lr has been used to take deer - the poacher's round of choice - and people. It must be a great round, too.

I have nothing wrong with the round per se, but it ain't Thor's hammer. And if you shoot a guy defensively 14 times with a 5.7, even Johnny C. back from the grave won't keep you out of prison.

45_auto
June 3, 2012, 10:17 AM
Lots of good info in this thread.

Ml, whether or not you're right depends entirely on what other manufacturers decide.

And all those stupid teachers taught me that the manufacturers build things BECAUSE the public buys them. Even Ruger finally figured that out and started making 1911's and AR15's. You really believe that if all the manufacturer's started making Highpoint style pistols (blowbacks) then that would create a bigger demand for them????

And if you shoot a guy defensively 14 times with a 5.7, even Johnny C. back from the grave won't keep you out of prison.

How many times can you shoot someone trying to kill you and stay out of prison?

HKGuns
June 3, 2012, 10:20 AM
Ok. It's magical. It's the next new thing. It is to ballistics what Glock is to pistol design.

I don't consider anything smaller than a 9mm a service pistol round. (And for you pocket pistol fans, save it.) And actually, there are now a lot of .380 rounds that will outperform a 9mm NATO. As for recoil......I guess I just picked up a .45 and never had a problem with it. But even in that direct comparison, I'm going to trust the 15+1 147 gr HSTs in my XD-9.

Call it a feeling, in ten years, It won't have MORE of the market share than it has now. If I'm wrong, you can hold it up in front of my face.

Isn't it funny how your statements have absolutely nothing to do with the original question. This thread isn't about whether or not this round is going to replace all other pistol calibers or even become mainstream.

It is about whether it is effective. Given the cost and availability it will never likely be mainstream. -That isn't what this thread is about, so please stay on topic or don't contribute.

Ash
June 3, 2012, 10:23 AM
I don't need to shoot a man 14 times. If my round is so ineffective, then instead of justifying why so many are needed, perhaps something better is needed. I'm not interested in dropping my soap in the shower with bubba behind me. There is nothing definitive, but as we know in Florida, one time is enough to go to jail (making no judgement on the case, mind you, since I was not there).

10 rounds of 45acp in an ASAI One Pro or 6 rounds of 357 in a Colt Trooper do the job nicely for me. You want the 5.7? Fine by me, too. Following Katrina, I discovered my 15 round CZ in 9mm stayed in the safe while my 10 round 45acp Tanfoglio rode my side - and then all of a day because in Mississippi, where the eye hit, we didn't go Lord of the Flies, we just got to work and did not need to arm ourselves. For me, the 5.7 does not do - especially since I'm not a fan of striker-fired polymer pistols, and that is the only handgun platform that currently supports the 5.7. For others, they feel fine with it. The reality is, most of us here will never fire a gun in anger outside of combat. My family has thrice used handguns in self-defense, the first time with a Hopkins and Allen revolver in the 1950's, the second time with a Colt New Service following Hurricane Camille while the third time was in the 1980's with a S&W Model 10 at a Florida rest stop during that rest stop shooting spree. In none of the instances was a round even fired. In each case, the family was protected. In two cases, the baddies fled, while in one, the two scumbags ended up arrested.

You find that 17 rounds are needed to do the job, okay, too. You think a bunch of baddies are coming at you (and are the type that when two of their kind drop to the ground in the gurgling throes of death they keep coming instead of running away), then I suggest you should have used both better judgement in where you went, and barring that, should have gone belt-fed.

45_auto
June 3, 2012, 11:02 AM
I don't need to shoot a man 14 times.

Better hope the guy coming after you isn't named Platt. Actually he only took 12 hits to stop him, and I'm sure you're good enough that you never miss, so that would still leave you 2 in the gun in case you drop your soap or go Lord of the Flies! :D

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 11:06 AM
The possibility of bad guys in body armor is so small, it doesn't factor into my plan. Where the heck do you live?

Some people do because they need to, others do not because they don't.

As you said, different tools for different jobs.

Ash
June 3, 2012, 11:15 AM
Yeah, but we don't live in the first-shooter realm of carrying 25 different arms, including rocket launchers.

As for shooting, I will live or I will die. If I die, then I'm ready for that. If the other guy dies, I'm ready for that, too. If 6 rounds of 357 is no good, or 10 rounds of 45 is no good, then I guess I'll just chew his throat out.

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 11:23 AM
Yeah, but we don't live in the first-shooter realm of carrying 25 different arms, including rocket launchers.



Obviously having that much weaponry would require a squad. ;)

As for shooting, I will live or I will die. If I die, then I'm ready for that. If the other guy dies, I'm ready for that, too. If 6 rounds of 357 is no good, or 10 rounds of 45 is no good, then I guess I'll just chew his throat out.

Sounds like a general undefined SD situation you may be planning for. Others may know the folks that they are likely to find themselves defending against and may have specific information that make certain scenarios more likely than others. Someone in that situation would be wise to plan accordingly. That doesn't mean your plan should follow suit. I think you're doing just fine, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate to discount other's planning.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 02:28 PM
The only time you need to shoot a man 14 times is if 13 didn't stop him. If he's hopped up on stuff (the new one is bath salts) its entirely possible you might need all those. Especially if you miss or get non-critical hits, and the hits to COM aren't hitting something that will stop him immediately. Technically, one shot from #1 buck will be hitting a man 16 times. If you're in a situation where you have to explain why you shot him that 14th time, your defense could be "he hadn't stopped attacking yet." Simple as that. There are stories of people hopped up on drugs who were taken down by LE/M and took several hits to the chest before finally being brought down.

And all those stupid teachers taught me that the manufacturers build things BECAUSE the public buys them. Even Ruger finally figured that out and started making 1911's and AR15's. You really believe that if all the manufacturer's started making Highpoint style pistols (blowbacks) then that would create a bigger demand for them????

Like I said, it's in a state of flux. Some people will buy the 5-7 anyway because they really want it, others flat-out refuse to because they want to stick with their current caliber of choice. However, there are a lot of people who would buy it if:

Ammo was cheaper and more available
There were guns in the $500-700 price range instead of over a grand
There were guns that fit what they're looking for (i.e. all of my semi-auto handguns are DAO with no safety or Striker-Fired with a trigger safety and no manual safety, the FN FiveseveN is single action with a manual safety).
There were guns made by someone who the buyer has brand loyalty for (i.e. some people won't get anything but a Glock)


The problem is, because of those limitations in availability, a lot of the fencers are reluctant to buy one. If those limitations were gone, then more people would buy the 5.7 platform. The problem arises in that manufacturers don't see the platform as popular, so they don't make a frame for it. This leads to the monopoly of the 5.7 by FN, and continues the availability issue.

That's why it's up to the manufacturers. If Glock decided to make the G40, in 5.7x28mm with a 5" barrel and 20-round capacity, maybe MSRP $650-700 (in stores for $500-600), I'm sure the popularity of the 5.7x28mm would jump overnight. Glock making that leap of faith to produce the G40 would provide customers with:
-Assurance that the 5.7x28mm is a platform considered useful by more than just FN and a few random no-name-brand companies
-An option other than the FiveseveN, which is more affordable and has different characteristics that may be closer to what they want

So yes, the low supply AND demand are tied to each other, and its going to take a manufacturer to break it.

Ash
June 3, 2012, 02:36 PM
I doubt Glock would manufacture a pistol in an FN caliber, they did not, after all, make an FN-45GAP.

But the argument is sound.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 3, 2012, 02:45 PM
I've said it before, and I think FiveTwoSeven has something similar in his sig, I'm waiting for FN to make a DAO or striker-fired variant, or Springfield/Ruger/Glock/S&W to make one. I know I left Taurus off the list, but after seeing pictures of a FiveseveN KB, I don't want Taurus to make one.

I would like an XDm in 5.7, I think it would be a nifty pistol. I did have something like that in my sig for some time.

I do like this round but I do want to stay out of these arguments now. I've done research and ended up liking the round. I've seen many arguments if not all of them against the round and I still like it. I don't need to convince anyone about it. The biggest factor is hitting something vital and then after shot placement, then caliber comes in order of importance.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 02:51 PM
Haha, 527, there you are! I was waiting for your comment about the XDm.

I doubt Glock would manufacture a pistol in an FN caliber, they did not, after all, make an FN-45GAP.

Yes, and it sells poorly compared to their 45 (automatic) Colt. They also sell the .357 Sig. The nice thing about 5.7x28mm is that it doesn't have "FN" in the common name for it, although they could always call it 5.7 auto (like how .45 ACP is ".45 auto" and .357 sig is ".357 auto"). Oh, wait, I forgot the .40 S&W (ahem, ".40 auto").

kr8ter
June 3, 2012, 05:56 PM
Ash, the FN fiveseven is not striker fired. It has a internal hammer.

PabloJ
June 3, 2012, 08:00 PM
The advantage of 5,7 is that with correct ammo one can always shoot in center of chest to make a kill while with most other handgun calibers to be 100% certain a head shot is needed. I would list this weapon under OFFENSIVE handgun category.

Skribs
June 3, 2012, 08:31 PM
The advantage of 5,7 is that with correct ammo one can always shoot in center of chest to make a kill while with most other handgun calibers to be 100% certain a head shot is needed. I would list this weapon under OFFENSIVE handgun category.

Uh...what?

1) The goal of a defensive shooting is to stop (which killing does), and you're supposed to aim COM because its a lot easier to hit. Therefore, this would still work well as a defensive weapon.

2) A 9mm to the center of the chest will hit the same organ that a 5.7 to the center of the chest will.

MachIVshooter
June 3, 2012, 08:46 PM
The advantage of 5,7 is that with correct ammo one can always shoot in center of chest to make a kill while with most other handgun calibers to be 100% certain a head shot is needed. I would list this weapon under OFFENSIVE handgun category.

If you're appealing to the 5.7mm's ability to penetrate, it actually penetrates less in soft tissue than common service cartridges. It's purpose was to defeat PASGT body armor.

Ash
June 3, 2012, 09:10 PM
Internal hammer might as well be striker-fired. I want a hammer I can manipulate. Others don't, and that is fine by me.

ec4321
June 3, 2012, 09:24 PM
Internal hammer might as well be striker-fired. I want a hammer I can manipulate. Others don't, and that is fine by me.

The difference is in the trigger.

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 09:25 PM
Pablo, where are you supposed to shoot with OTHER cartridges? All defensive ammo in all service pistol calibers is likely to completely traverse a human target under most circumstances.

G|0cKbYtE
June 3, 2012, 10:22 PM
He's talking about body armored targets.

ClickClickD'oh
June 3, 2012, 10:26 PM
I would probably try to take advantage of the high capacity and low recoil, and see how many little holes I could make center-of-mass in the shortest possible time.

Isn't that pretty much the winning strategy no matter what caliber you are using?

mljdeckard
June 3, 2012, 10:43 PM
No. With a conventional cartridge I will open with a failure drill.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 4, 2012, 01:25 AM
You really believe that if all the manufacturer's started making Highpoint style pistols (blowbacks) then that would create a bigger demand for them????

I'm pretty sure people don't buy a gun because the gun uses browning short recoil, that's just silly.

Ash
June 4, 2012, 08:05 AM
Eh, I do. I want a locked breach because I like recoil springs that are not needlessly stiff and a slide that is not overly-heavy.

ClickClickD'oh
June 4, 2012, 08:35 AM
No. With a conventional cartridge I will open with a failure drill.

I hope you don't mind too terribly if I keep teaching my classes to aim COM and pull the trigger until the threat is neutralized... no matter what badass hand cannon they happen to be packing.



The silly things people say to rally against the 5.7 are amusing.

45_auto
June 4, 2012, 09:15 AM
No. With a conventional cartridge I will open with a failure drill.

Here's a hint. In a real world self-defense situation where you're not shooting at a paper target, the reason that your target didn't stop is because you missed him with your first 2 shots to center mass. Changing your aiming point to something smaller and faster moving (headshot) is just going to get you killed. If you're smart, you'll follow ClickClickD'oh's advice.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 4, 2012, 09:24 AM
Eh, I do. I want a locked breach because I like recoil springs that are not needlessly stiff and a slide that is not overly-heavy.

Apparently you've never handled a FiveseveN, it's a very light gun with a normal strength spring as other conventional guns.

Ash
June 4, 2012, 11:32 AM
As a point of fact, my brother-in-law owns a first pattern Five-seveN. Even with the dorky skater boi spelling of the name, my dislike of the pistol remains exactly the same. Weight of the slide matters little.

Check out Hi Point, Jennings, Lorcin, and Astra pistols. I have held them, too. Once even owned a Bryco. There is a solid reason why over the last 100 years, the vast majority of blow-back pistols in large caliber rounds were discarded by virtually every military force in the world, including FN - all save for Spain in fact. Yeah, times change, and perhaps your round of choice fills your needs, but blow-backs are not ideal with my personal round of choice (which happens to be two in autos, 9mm and 45, neither of which is conducive to your design). You like the 5.7 and its poly blow back pistol that fires it. Great, I've nothing wrong with your decision. It is yours after all.

Enjoy your pistol. I'm fine with you liking it. I have an idea, be fine with the fact I don't.

ec4321
June 4, 2012, 11:46 AM
Even with the dorky skater boi spelling of the name, my dislike of the pistol remains exactly the same.

There is a solid reason why over the last 100 years, the vast majority of blow-back pistols in large caliber rounds were discarded by virtually every military force in the world, including FN - all save for Spain in fact.

You like the 5.7 and its poly blow back pistol that fires it.


I'm fine with you liking it. I have an idea, be fine with the fact I don't.


You TOTALLY come across as being completely okay with others liking it... :neener:

mljdeckard
June 4, 2012, 12:00 PM
So, my plan of aiming for center-mass and then the head is unrealistic, but a 5.7 through center-mass to the CNS is a good plan?

ClickClickD'oh
June 4, 2012, 12:16 PM
So, my plan of aiming for center-mass and then the head is unrealistic, but a 5.7 through center-mass to the CNS is a good plan?

No, it's more of trying to double tap a guy then shoot him in the head once, and hope the job is done instead of just keeping your point of aim COM and squeezing the trigger until he falls over or the slide locks back.

It doesn't matter if it's a .45, 9mm, .40, .357, .38, .57, 10mm... whatever. The best plan, unless you are a super trained, spec ops qualified, pistol ninja, certified awesome shooter... is COM and rock and roll.

Now, if you do happen to be a super trained, spec ops qualified, pistol ninja, certified awesome shooter, then please... continue using the Mozambique drill. Everyone else should probably aim COM and shoot until the threat is neutralized.

Oddly enough, you've defeated your own arguments though. A 5.7 between the eyes will stop a threat just as fast as a .45 will

Ash
June 4, 2012, 12:46 PM
And so, then, falls the superiority of the 5.7.

ec4321
June 4, 2012, 12:55 PM
And so, then, falls the superiority of the 5.7.

Which handgun rounds are superior to the 5.7 for armor piercing?

Skribs
June 4, 2012, 01:08 PM
And so, then, falls the superiority of the 5.7.

Because the 5.7 has the same recoil and same capacity as a .45.

Also, the size of the hole *may* make a difference. It's just hard to say how big a difference in a real-world scenario. It's also hard to say whether the PWC of the 5.7 will be bigger or smaller.

Another thing to consider - one nice thing about yawing rounds is they don't clog up and fail to expand after going through a wall, meaning a lot less overpenetration. This would apply in the case of the 5.7.

IMO, here's what you have:

Pros for 5.7: Lighter platform, lighter recoil, higher capacity, rifle-like wound channel (albeit smaller than a rifle, at least brings it back up on par with the other service calibers), long-range accuracy.

Cons for 5.7: Wouldn't do well in a compact (short barrel = less velocity = smaller wound tract), noise, availability/price/options.

Ash
June 4, 2012, 03:43 PM
Mountain Eagle with 30-06 armor piercing rounds. One shot sucks, and loss of velocity from a short barrel sucks, too, but armor piercing it is.

That handgun would be far superior with armor piercing.

CZ-52, armor piercing without the piercing cost.

You know, I'm just not worried about baddies in armor. Wanna talk real world? They really exist in the same proportion as IRA terrorists on the streets of SOHO. More people in America are struck by lightning each year than are killed in a decade by armor-wearing psycho murderers. Real world scenarios? Body armor bad guys make the news stories exactly how many times?

Anybody here wear a lightning rod baseball cap?

Me, I live on the dangerous side. I carry a 45acp with a paltry ten rounds of ammo in its mag. There are even times I really shake it up and live really on the edge with a mere 6 rounds of 357mag in a Ruger Police Six. Once, I even wandered about the back yard looking for a prowler using a British cutlass from the Napoleonic Wars. The funny thing about that, it lets me sleep just fine.

Enjoy the 5.7.

Skribs
June 4, 2012, 04:51 PM
I guess the whole argument can boil down to three main facts:

1) Just because something works doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job.
2) Just because something isn't the best doesn't mean it doesn't work.
3) It is impossible to know what the best is.

Orion8472
June 4, 2012, 05:42 PM
And as I suspected, . . . a bit of a "pissing contest" with this topic.

The 5.7x28 round will do okay for defense. Because no one would even want to get shot with a .22lr, and because the 5.7x28 is quite a bit more than that, it makes it a viable round. Maybe not as good as some of the bigger/slower bullets, but who the hell cares! It will work if you do your part. . . . . which is true of just about any of the handgun loads out there.

Ash
June 4, 2012, 06:15 PM
And sideline judges as well. They all come with a topic, eh?

Folks are going to be comfortable with what they like. I drive a Jeep Cherokee in the woods (I'm a Forester). Some guys think I'm dumb for that, believing that a full-size 4x4 is mandatory. I don't get stuck because I'm light in the mud and have a turning radius far better than a pickup - I can even drive firelanes.

Now pardon me while I swagger off with my six gun.

ec4321
June 4, 2012, 07:10 PM
Mountain Eagle with 30-06 armor piercing rounds. One shot sucks, and loss of velocity from a short barrel sucks, too, but armor piercing it is.

That handgun would be far superior with armor piercing.

CZ-52, armor piercing without the piercing cost.

You know, I'm just not worried about baddies in armor. Wanna talk real world? They really exist in the same proportion as IRA terrorists on the streets of SOHO. More people in America are struck by lightning each year than are killed in a decade by armor-wearing psycho murderers. Real world scenarios? Body armor bad guys make the news stories exactly how many times?

Anybody here wear a lightning rod baseball cap?

Me, I live on the dangerous side. I carry a 45acp with a paltry ten rounds of ammo in its mag. There are even times I really shake it up and live really on the edge with a mere 6 rounds of 357mag in a Ruger Police Six. Once, I even wandered about the back yard looking for a prowler using a British cutlass from the Napoleonic Wars. The funny thing about that, it lets me sleep just fine.

Enjoy the 5.7.
The statistics of likelihood are irrelevant.

You unilaterally declared the 5.7 to not be superior.

It is a superior handgun round for armor penetration.

Nothing you have said has disputed that.

Ash
June 5, 2012, 08:57 AM
But, it is not a superior round. I have a friend who drives a Ferrari. Sucks for him, because it can't pass Atlanta's emissions test. But, it's still a Ferrari. I drive a Jeep Cherokee. Which is the superior vehicle? His depreciation off the lot was more than the cost of my Jeep, and 0-60 there is no comparison.

Superior? Mine has a better turning radius. It is superior when it comes to getting parking places. Mine also can go through mud and has a ground clearance that is capable of actually clearing a speed bump without bottoming out. My Jeep even has more comfortable seats.

On a speedway, I have no chance unless he runs out of gas - and even then he can still win if any distance is involved.

In my world, his car is of little value. I don't blame him, and I do, naturally, share with others that I have ridden in a Ferrari. It is an impressive machine. But throwing kayaks on the top and heading down to the swamp, or navigating rough back-woods trails for work, there is no comparison. No amount of cost makes his Ferrari better.

And chances of occurrence are completely relevant. If I am to face armor, I want something to defeat it. Ma Deuce does it better than the FN, so why not go the right way? In self defense, the chances of going against armor rank up there with getting struck by lightning (worse, actually). I frankly need to lose no sleep (in fact, I don't lose any sleep) in the notion that my 45acp will not handle body armor as well as your 5.7. Not likely ever gonna need it. For me, that advantage is the same advantage the Ferrari has in speed. Perhaps true, but more irrelevant than percentage of occurrence.

So, you may purport to have a Ferrari. In handgun rounds, you don't, but let's just pretend. It may be superior to other handgun rounds in armor piercing, but that does not impress me. You like that, fine by me. If you are comfortable with the round, then carry it and use it.

But a superior round it does not make. Or do you seriously plan to tell me that the 5.7 is superior to the 357 mag?

Orion8472
June 5, 2012, 09:49 AM
Not a sideline judge as much as a sideline "I can't believe this topic is being rehashed the same way as before. . . again". :uhoh:

Oh, and I would absolutely do a Forester. Their all wheel drive is pretty nice. :)

ec4321
June 5, 2012, 10:56 AM
And chances of occurrence are completely relevant. If I am to face armor, I want something to defeat it. Ma Deuce does it better than the FN, so why not go the right way?

Completely logical Ash.

Same could be said for your 45. Get a Ma Deuce.

TimboKhan
June 5, 2012, 11:04 AM
Ok. This has been better than average, but it has run its course.

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