Soviet anti aircraft maneuver


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DilboFlaggins
June 2, 2012, 08:20 PM
http://s16.postimage.org/m4uvyo16d/Cb_TNc.jpg
Are they doing what I think they are doing?

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intercooler
June 2, 2012, 08:21 PM
We can't see it so probably.

DilboFlaggins
June 2, 2012, 08:22 PM
try refreshing, I think I fixed it

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 08:29 PM
I'd bet anti-paratrooper maneuver.

JellyJar
June 2, 2012, 08:32 PM
Duck Season! :)

I don't want to be downrange where those bullets land. There is a reason to use shot for ducks and other game birds!

Sam1911
June 2, 2012, 08:48 PM
I don't know what year that was, but in the first half of the 20th century it was not uncommon for troops to engage the slow, low-flying early aircraft that might appear over their trenches. Sure wouldn't be hard to bring down a early Sopwith, SPAD, or Fokker with a well-placed .30 cal round.

Especially in volley fire, as shown.

I believe more than a few rotary-wing craft crashes as late as Vietnam were attributed to small arms fire -- AKs, SKSs, Mosins and the like being the most likely culprits.

AlexanderA
June 2, 2012, 09:54 PM
This is not an ordinary infantry unit. It's a school for snipers. (Note the scopes on the Mosins, plus the inclusion of at least two women, in skirts.)

I would go with the theory that they're practicing anti-paratroop fire. (A scoped rifle is no good for anti-aircraft volley fire, because the field of view is too restricted, making it impossible to take a proper lead on a fast-moving airplane.) When deployed, they'd be in two-person teams.

Quoheleth
June 2, 2012, 10:01 PM
Those are Mosins.

They could be practicing mortar fire. :D

Q

Tommygunn
June 2, 2012, 10:44 PM
In WW1, the infamous "Red Baron" (Von Richtofen) was engaged in a low altitude dogfight over enemy territory (a practice he ironically warned his disciples against doing) when he was brought down by enemy fire. For a long time it was debated who's bullet had done the deed, a British pilot who'd joined in the dogfight to aid an ally in trouble, or a soldier on the ground beneath them, one of a number who had been firing on the German ace.
From the wound in Von Richtofen's body it appeared that it had been groundfire that had hit the well respected pilot.
Even today a lucky shot from an AK could bring down a F-18 or similar fighter, but the fighter would have to be unusually low (perhaps a ground attack mission) and it could really only be a truly lucky shot. Get a bullet into the air intake and hit those compressor blades and the compressor self destructs. But this would be the exception not the rule.

Steel Horse Rider
June 2, 2012, 10:50 PM
I am currently reading a book on the Battle for the Falklands and the British and Argentine troops both used their automatic rifles (FAL's I believe) to fire at ground support aircraft. I am not sure if they brought any down but they put a few holes in some.

JohnB
June 2, 2012, 11:00 PM
In Vietnam some of the pilots called that lucky shot a "golden BB".

bushmaster1313
June 2, 2012, 11:04 PM
For a long time it was debated who's bullet had done the deed, a British pilot who'd joined in the dogfight to aid an ally in trouble, or a soldier on the ground beneath them, one of a number who had been firing on the German ace.

Snoopy

Skribs
June 2, 2012, 11:31 PM
Even today a lucky shot from an AK could bring down a F-18 or similar fighter, but the fighter would have to be unusually low (perhaps a ground attack mission) and it could really only be a truly lucky shot. Get a bullet into the air intake and hit those compressor blades and the compressor self destructs. But this would be the exception not the rule.

Guy in my book does this to a high flying jet, but it's with an alien rifle and he's a supersoldier.

GaryM
June 2, 2012, 11:59 PM
Take a look at the Japanese Type 99 rifle anti-aircraft sights.
Yeah, they used them to shoot at aircraft.

asia331
June 3, 2012, 12:57 AM
You won't find too many marine attack pilots laughing; no fun at all flying through a wall of small arms barrage fire. More than a few pilots got bagged by NVA golden bb's.

Ignition Override
June 3, 2012, 02:32 AM
Sam 1911:
In the book "Chickenhawk", written by a brand-new Huey pilot who flew assaults in S. Vietnam, there was quite a surprise one day at a landing zone.

The VC had built a giant bow and arrow, using a tree as a bow and a long thick branch as an arrow. They must have had nightmares later about that. The VC usually knew where the Hueys were headed, it seemed-maybe the "chain of command" had too many leaks.

ApacheCoTodd
June 3, 2012, 10:41 AM
I think it's an example of buying into "Uncle Joe's" propaganda. They were no doubt told that Soviet sniper rifles being the pinnacle of pin-point marksmanship from the People's Perfect Proletariat Paradise - and thus worlds better than any other nation's rifle - could hit the moon. Here's the daylight phase of training.

I'm going anti-para though interesting points have been touched upon in jest. I find particular interest in the old training manuals that I collect when they refer to things like concentrated indirect fire (motor-like) of bolt action rifles and anti-aircraft training.

Tommygunn
June 3, 2012, 11:37 AM
For a long time it was debated who's bullet had done the deed, a British pilot who'd joined in the dogfight to aid an ally in trouble, or a soldier on the ground beneath them, one of a number who had been firing on the German ace.

Snoopy :what:
Yea, Snoopy WISHES!:rolleyes:

;)

rcmodel
June 3, 2012, 11:44 AM
Japanese Ariska Type 99 rifles had anti-aircraft folding "wings" on the rear sight for judging the lead on flying aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArisakaSightsOpen.jpg

I saw a Huey tail rotor shaft once with a Vietnamese cross-bow arrow stuck through it.

rc

230RN
June 3, 2012, 11:47 AM
I'd have to dig through two volumes of Airwar by Joseph Jablonski to find it, but he did make a remark somewhere about how in every war, the Generals always get a big surprise when they find out how vulnerable aircraft are to small arms ground fire.

And I would not assume that the Russian troops were looking through the scopes for anti-aircraft fire, but rather perhaps along the scopes. I suspect this because of the long "eye relief" of the guy on the extreme left in the picture, as well as some of the others. They might use the glass for paratroopers, though.

Pull!

leadcounsel
June 3, 2012, 01:19 PM
Range and caliber of the single shot MN would be capable of bringing down aircraft. But it would be a very tough task and require some lucky hits. Hence the volley of shots... From the ground you'd have no way of knowing whether you scored a hit, and whether you needed to adjust fire to left, right, forward etc. without tracers.

With paratroopers you'd know if you scored a hit.

A few points... many of those Soldiers are looking at the iron sites under the scopes, or appear to be looking along the scopes.

Also interesting, I see at least one female and one asian amonst the soldiers.

Ignition Override
June 3, 2012, 01:20 PM
It might be fifty two years too late to say this, but the Majors and Lt. Cmdrs should be in charge of the Pentagon.

The ticket-punching generals should be herded into the back rooms to process paperwork, in case some of them still have the "Maginot Line" mentality, in a relative sense.

AlexanderA
June 3, 2012, 02:23 PM
I suspect this because of the long "eye relief" of the guy on the extreme left in the picture, as well as some of the others.

The "guy" on the extreme left is a woman. Notice the skirt. The Asian on the right is also a woman, wearing a skirt. The Soviets were well-known for using women as snipers in WWII. The men's uniforms in this picture are quite different from the women's.

Husker1911
June 3, 2012, 02:30 PM
Can't help thinking that resting one's shoulder upon the firm earth and firing a M/N would lead to one heck of a sore shoulder.

Gabby Hayes
June 3, 2012, 02:40 PM
You can tell these are Russian army troops. If they were marines they'd have their bayonets fixed. :D

Deanimator
June 3, 2012, 03:41 PM
Back in the late '70s or early '80s, there was a guy who wrote for "Soldier of Fortune" who'd been in the French Foreign Legion. He recounted having a conversation with a French army officer who was ranting about the replacement of the 7.5x54mm Fusil Mle. 49/56 with the 5.56x45mm FAMAS "Clarion". He complained that the 49/56 was the first line of air defense for the French army and that the FAMAS just couldn't get that job done.

Shadow 7D
June 3, 2012, 03:50 PM
Knew a guy when I was in who was hit by ground fire, this would have happened in the late 90's, he was a navy rescue swimmer, and they did support missions getting people out of the Jungle in south america, and the only part that wasn't on kevlar was his legs, and that's where he got shot, he said the pilot said thanks, it probably would have hit the transmission, not that it would have done anything, but better not to risk it.

Sam1911
June 3, 2012, 06:42 PM
In the book "Chickenhawk", written by a brand-new Huey pilot who flew assaults in S. Vietnam, there was quite a surprise one day at a landing zone.
Yeah, that book might have been the first place I read of such.

WardenWolf
June 3, 2012, 06:54 PM
Japanese Ariska Type 99 rifles had anti-aircraft folding "wings" on the rear sight for judging the lead on flying aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArisakaSightsOpen.jpg

I saw a Huey tail rotor shaft once with a Vietnamese cross-bow arrow stuck through it.

rc
Heh, that's my picture, and my rifle, taken in my backyard. The pictures Wikipedia originally had were, shall we say, very limited. I uploaded that picture, and did some other work on the article. Looks like a couple of the pictures I uploaded have since been edited out, though.

Yes, Soviets did actually train in antiaircraft maneuvers that way. That's exactly what they were doing there. Those rifles only had 4x scopes, which would have NO appreciable effect on field of view on even low-altitude aircraft. Note that having no room for your shoulder to move to absorb recoil, firing from that position would be HELL.

MikeG
June 4, 2012, 01:17 PM
Those rifles only had 4x scopes, which would have NO appreciable effect on field of view on even low-altitude aircraft.

I think the scope mount also allowed use of the iron sights if necessary.

Double Naught Spy
June 4, 2012, 03:00 PM
I would go with the theory that they're practicing anti-paratroop fire. (A scoped rifle is no good for anti-aircraft volley fire, because the field of view is too restricted, making it impossible to take a proper lead on a fast-moving airplane.) When deployed, they'd be in two-person teams.

There isn't any reason a scope could not be used for anti-aircraft fire. As noted by WardenWolf, low magnification would certainly make it possible as would the height of the plan. How much lead is needed will depend on a lot of things including speed, height and direction of travel.

Note that not all aircraft were fast-moving. Spotter or recon planes were quite desirable targets. Of course during WWII and shortly thereafter, you had gyrocopter planes and later helicopters that would be slow targets.

Interesting that you think the pic is for practicing anti-paratroop fire, but that when deployed, they would be in 2 person teams. There is certainly no indication that they are practicing in 2 person teams in the image.

Here is the modern day French version using R/C planes...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47d_1293062475

Rebel firing at plane...
http://www.google.com/imgres?start=92&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4TSNA_enUS361US436&biw=1199&bih=621&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=zDA1mNzcadRNoM:&imgrefurl=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/libya-news-live-updates-gaddafis-compound-under-attack/2011/08/23/gIQAzXTYYJ_blog.html&docid=_xseOBII1Psm0M&imgurl=http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/blogpost/201108/Images/raslanuf.JPG%253Fuuid%253D7ziJLs27EeCeCpSGbSBlkA&w=606&h=402&ei=6wTNT4isJ6ft0gHmy82_Dw&zoom=1



Also interesting, I see at least one female and one asian amonst the soldiers.

Given the amount of the Soviet Union that covered Asia and the arctic, I would be surprised not to see people with mongoloid traits serving in their military.

GEM
June 4, 2012, 03:50 PM
I recall that massed .303 fire was used by the Brits at Dunkirk. While not a rifle, there is plenty of literature that RPGs are a real threat to slower aircraft, heliocopters primarily.

Kingofthehill
June 4, 2012, 04:55 PM
PULL!

ForumSurfer
June 4, 2012, 05:00 PM
Those were Mosin's, obviously they were shifting the earth's rotational axis with volley fire. It's how they brought about a harsher than normal winter to help defeat the Nazi's.

(Or it could be volley fire in attempt to bring down low flying, slow planes as others said...or maybe low flying spotter balloons?

danweasel
June 4, 2012, 05:38 PM
The Iraqi army shot down a few Apaches in 2003 with massed AK fire. They basically timed when the squadron was coming over a hill and filled the entire night sky with lead.

Also, when I was going to IRaq at the same time I remember our Platoon Sergeant saying, "If there is an enemy aircraft I will call out a number of football fields for you all to lead him by..."

So there's my little contribution.

Double Naught Spy
June 4, 2012, 06:03 PM
This looked interesting....
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/intelligence-report/small-arms-antiaircraft.html

4. TACTICS USED BY THE RUSSIANS

A captured German order describes the effectiveness of the Russian light antiaircraft defenses. Extracts from the order are quoted, as follows:

"During the past 2 months (January and February, 1942), it has been found that our loss of planes from small-arms ground fire has been exceptionally high. In one of our air units which supported a ground attack, the loss from enemy small-arms ground fire was 50 percent. The reason for this lies in the well-organized Soviet antiaircraft fire. Our aviation units have made the following observations:

"a. Every Soviet ground unit attacked by our aviation opens fire on our planes with rifles and other infantry weapons. The probability of hits on a small target by widely distributed ground fire is very great.

"b. As soon as Soviet cavalrymen are attacked, they dismount and fire from a standing position with their rifles placed on the saddles. The infantrymen lie on their backs and fire.
"c. Mortar fire is also used. I do not point this out as an example to be followed but to explain that the Soviets fire on aircraft with all weapons used by ground troops.

"d. The Soviets place light and medium antiaircraft artillery, transported on sleds, at the head of the column."

gym
June 4, 2012, 07:05 PM
Wasted a lot of ammo on a remote controlled airplane. Maybe shooting semi auto would have worked better.After the first round they are all over the place. Imagine being the guy who has to build the model airplanes.He's the only one routing for the plane.
Now Chuck Norris could have just kicked it out of the sky.

papaairbear
June 4, 2012, 07:28 PM
A good friend of mine was an observer in a Loach as part of a Pink Team in the Iron Triangle of So. Vietnam back in '67 and was shot down twice from AK-47 ground fire. He has the bullet from the 2d purple heart in his scrap book that the meds dug out of his leg. Low and slow was sure to draw fire-- Pink = White (OH 6) and Red (UH1C's mostly or an AH1)-- but even Fast Facs drew groundfire that hit home. A few PO'd grunts can be a force to reckon with. Now-a-days a shoulder fired Red Eye seems to be the winning ticket.

paintballdude902
June 4, 2012, 10:30 PM
thats still a pretty serious issue for us today especially those of us that fly low and slow

230RN
June 4, 2012, 10:33 PM
AlexanderA said,

The "guy" on the extreme left is a woman. Notice the skirt.

Just testing to see if anyone's reading my posts.

Terry, 230RN

GRIZ22
June 5, 2012, 07:37 AM
Engaging enemy aircraft with small arms was still taught by the US Army as of a few years ago and most likely still is today. The idea was not to lead amd track the aircraft but to put up a wall of lead for the enemy aircraft to fly into. Can it be done? There's plenty of helicopter pilots that will testify to the fact. The RPG seems to be the quite effective these days.

I'm sure there are cases of small arms taking out low flying aircraft in all wars since aircraft have been used.

Many a ME109 or FW190 was downed by Sgt. Rock's Thompson :).

Dain Bramage
June 5, 2012, 12:20 PM
My ex-brother-in-law was a Huey gunner in Vietnam. Says the only casualty his aircraft ever took was from a lone VC with an AK in a rice paddy. The shot went up the lower nose plexi-glass, through the pilot's thigh, bounced off the INSIDE of an armor plate that was supposed to protect him, and then through the pilot's arm.

The co-pilot came around and volleyed their entire load of rockets, obliterating the VC. The pilot was medivac'd and survived.

TurtlePhish
June 5, 2012, 03:30 PM
That is most likely anti-aircraft fire. My translated copy of the Soviet Mosin manual has a section dealing with shooting at aircraft. The diagrams didn't show them laying down, though.

kcshooter
June 5, 2012, 03:44 PM
They're shooting Mosins.

They're aiming for L.A.

GEM
June 5, 2012, 04:21 PM
I remember reading about that Iraqi incident. They set up an open box and waited for the Apaches to enter. It started a discussion of whether armed heliocopters are really viable against a determined and equipped infantry with MPAD stuff. We haven't really faced a modern opponent with such and training to use it.

Readyrod
June 6, 2012, 07:29 AM
If they are shooting at a dive bomber that is coming right at them then they don't need to lead the shot. Same goes for any plane that is using direct fire against them. Who knows they may get lucky. They may also make the pilot flinch. And then there is the morale factor, I'd feel much better if I was shooting back at the plicks rather than cowering in a hole with my hands covering my nuts.

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