9mm range brass


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tightgroup tiger
June 4, 2012, 05:57 PM
On doing my full inspection of the last purchase of 9mm range brass I found some wierd looking brass, obviously no good.

The range I shoot at is indoor and only about 1% of us load our own shells. These came out of the last 1K of range brass I bought.

Does anyone know what caused these cases to be the way I found them?

They didn't come out of one of my guns but it makes me wonder, knowing that probably 99% of the cases that hit the floor are factory, once fired loads, what the heck caused to these?

The case on the left has the same cobwebbing that the middle one has but no holes,

The one in the middle is worst case

The one on the right is bloated

I know that 9mm is one of the most mass produced ammo their is but I've never seen cases screwed up like these before. I only started buying range brass this year so this is a little dis-heartening.


Are they case defects or gun defects, or both, or does someone in my area need a lesson on re-loading 9mm shells?

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Walkalong
June 4, 2012, 06:16 PM
The one on the right is probably OK. I forget what gun makes that mark. I have picked up plenty like it. As long as there is no other problem with it, and it sizes to fit a case gauge, it should be good to go.

The other two are definitely toast. Since I am my own source of 9MM range brass, I just don't pick those kinds up. :)

tightgroup tiger
June 4, 2012, 06:27 PM
The other two are definitely toast

Boy, that's a fact. I threw away probably 20 cases that had this wierd cobwebing on it. I've never seen this before but they came from probably two of the largest mfg's of 9mm out there, and highly respected mfg's at that.
Has anyone seen anything like this before? When I first saw them I thought the mfg's had a bad sheet of brass that they were punching their shells out of, but purely speculative on my part.

100% inspection is time consuming but well worth it.

moxie
June 4, 2012, 06:34 PM
Those could possibly have been fired in a gun chambered for .357 Sig. That would account for the jagged split on case #2 and the horizontal line around the circumference, esp. case #3. Note also the slightly smaller diameter above that line.

tightgroup tiger
June 4, 2012, 06:57 PM
I thought that too, the one on the right does resemble a 357 Sig cartridge. The other to don't show any signs of being bloated and they mic out pretty close to the taper of a proper 9mm case.

1KPerDay
June 4, 2012, 07:32 PM
I'm betting fired in a .40 or .357 SIG.

Walkalong
June 4, 2012, 07:46 PM
I have seen 9MM cases fired in .40, and the front half of the case bulges to .40. These are not.

Nick93
June 4, 2012, 10:49 PM
I forget what gun makes that mark.

Hk P30 I think ...

The one of the left doesn't seem to be that bad I would resize it and check

The one in the middle its dead as others said, I cant imagine how get that type of markings, maybe a bad chamber or a jam ?

fields
June 4, 2012, 11:07 PM
I would throw at least the first two away. These are too cheap for the risk/reward to pay off.
richard

ny32182
June 5, 2012, 03:54 PM
Kind of hard to tell from the pic if there is anything wrong with the first one. I don't see anything wrong with it.

The one on the right, I will second/third that I have picked up range brass like that frequently, and have wondered about it myself. I've reloaded them just fine however... just figured it had to be some quirk with someone's chamber.

I'm stumped on the middle one. I've seen several 9mm's fired in .40s, and the case mouth expands to .40 size, but the ones I have seen do not split oddly enough. Maybe once they have been through enough reloadings, or you get a brittle piece of 9mm and fire it in .40 that could happen, but it just looks too close to 9mm chamber size to me.

moxie
June 5, 2012, 04:01 PM
I once mistakenly fired a .44 Special round out of a .45 Colt. The result was a case that looks like #2 in the photo. I've seen other cases fired in guns that were oversized for them. Same kind of split. If the gun in this case wasn't a .40 I think it was a .357 Sig as I originally stated. Don't see how that could have happened in any 9mm I'm aware of, but there are lots out there.

swiftak
June 5, 2012, 04:03 PM
I'm with the 357 Sig theory.

ny32182
June 5, 2012, 04:03 PM
Based on what happens when you fire a 9mm in a .40, I would expect a far more substantial bulge around the base for a 9mm fired in 357sig chamber. But as far as I know, have never actually seen it.

smith627
June 5, 2012, 06:17 PM
Are any stamped Merc or Norinco ? I strictly reload but I was given a couple boxes of chinese Norinco where about 10% were split :what: when I picked them up. Very thin walled cases and I decided not to reload them.

BBDartCA
June 5, 2012, 11:08 PM
I had a 357 mag that looked just like the one in the middle. But the wicked crack did not occur until I seated the bullet.

Centaur 1
June 6, 2012, 12:47 AM
A friend of mine came over one day with a present for me, a box of approximately 5,000 once fired .380 acp brass from the indoor range where he works. A few days later I was sorting the brass and there was about 500 speer nickel plated cases and over 1/3 of them had cracked cases, the ones that weren't cracked were noticeably oversized. I thought that it was kind of weird all the bad cases were from the same manufacturer, so I gave my friend a call. He told me that he noticed the same thing and already culled out several hundred bad cases before he brought me the box. It turns out that a local gun manufacturer had come in to test one of their pistols. The story is that they were trying to improve case feed reliability by reaming an oversized chamber. They were asked about the problem with the oversized and split cases. Their reply was something to the effect of, since it's a pocket sized .380 designed to conceal carry and function flawlessly, they didn't care iota if the used brass was reloadable.

Another theory is they might be .380acp cases that were fired in a 9mm. I've seen a lot of .380 ammo that's stamped 9mm brc and 9x17mm. A lot of guys don't know that these are .380's and not 9mm.

tightgroup tiger
June 6, 2012, 11:02 PM
Are any stamped Merc or Norinco
No they aren't, they are name brand as it gets. I don't want to mention names here mainly because I don't if these are defects or caused by someone negligence.

They are headstamped 9mm Luger.

I just wonder if some moron ran out of ammo with a range rental and borrowed some from his moron friend who was shooting a different caliber.

bbuddtec
June 6, 2012, 11:14 PM
...another for the .357sig theory.

mstreddy
June 6, 2012, 11:27 PM
For those thinking 9 in 40 -- see the first case in the picture below: This is a 9mm fired in a 40. Quite the deformed case! For comparison -- no 2 is 9 fired in 45, and last is a 40 fired in a 45.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases.jpg
From another angle:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases2.jpg

I'll have to try a 9 in a 357 sig to see how it blows for comparison, but I don't think it would be like those cases tiger has.

/Eddy

Naterater
June 7, 2012, 01:24 AM
I've seen a few new factory rounds with messed up rims that are angled and barely hold the primer in place, but never this cobwebbing.

I'm against the theory that they were fired in a larger caliber gun. I have seen the same results as mstreddy before

evan price
June 7, 2012, 05:20 AM
Sometimes you get bad brass. 9mm is as cheap and common as it gets, and sometimes the brass metallurgically has a flaw, and since 9mm is so much volume it stands to reason you get a few bad ones.

If I didn't fire it, I personally don't worry about why brass is bad- it's bad- chuck it in the scrap bucket.

If they are Remington (RP or REM-UMC) I would not be surprised. Their brass seems thinner to me.

LotI
June 7, 2012, 09:18 AM
My HK P30 does that to brass. The original George Luger design had a Stepped chamber to help accuracy.

My buddies Walther PPQ has a stepped chamber but isn't as long of a step.

ny32182
June 7, 2012, 09:37 AM
I've seen the OP's pattern often enough to believe it is a quirk with someone's 9mm chamber, and nothing more. Much like some HK's leave fluting marks on the brass. I don't consider it a "defect".

I have reloaded them every time I have found them (dozens at least by now), and it works fine. The sizing die takes it right out; you won't even know which one it was after sizing.

It is a non-issue. If you don't like them, leave them for someone who doesn't care. Or mail them to me.

1KPerDay
June 7, 2012, 01:10 PM
For those thinking 9 in 40 -- see the first case in the picture below: This is a 9mm fired in a 40. Quite the deformed case! For comparison -- no 2 is 9 fired in 45, and last is a 40 fired in a 45.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases.jpg
From another angle:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/eddymartinez/cases2.jpg

I'll have to try a 9 in a 357 sig to see how it blows for comparison, but I don't think it would be like those cases tiger has.

/Eddy
I stand corrected; thanks for the pics.

tightgroup tiger
June 7, 2012, 06:09 PM
I'm not worried about the ones that are bulged out. They will resize since the case mouth is still at it's normal size. I have already resized some of them.

The others I just toss in the scrap can, I was just wondering what was causing the defects. I know their is a lot of knowledge on this forum and even more experience.

Especially MSTreddy's experiments with blowing cases.

I'm glad I'm looking at the photo's, very educational! I'm sure you are doing it safely, your still typing. It's good to see what they look like though so I'm really glad you put it on here. We can all benefit from the pictures of the real deal.

When I started going through my range brass and found, especially the middle one, I sure didn't know what to make of them.

It won't scare me from buying any more especially since I will keep doing 100% inspection on them as in the past. The 9mm are $3.00/100, I don't know if that is bad or good but I can afford to pitch a few of them now and then.

ny32182
June 7, 2012, 06:17 PM
Firing a 9mm in a .40 represents no safety risk; since the bullet is smaller than the bore you don't build up the pressure of an actual shot, though you still do get a "bang" report. However, the gun does not cycle. I watched a new shooter in IDPA do this about three times in a row (bang, rack, bang, rack, bang, rack) before he was stopped to figure out what was wrong, and it was noticed that he had a mag full of 9mm in his .40. Cases looked exactly like those pictured.

I'd be a lot more hesitant to fire a 9 in a 357sig chamber... best case, you will generate significant pressure levels and probably only split near the base. And it might end a lot worse than that.

tightgroup tiger
June 7, 2012, 09:45 PM
I'll have to try a 9 in a 357 sig to see how it blows for comparison, but I don't think it would be like those cases tiger has.

I would really be interested in seeing what those look like.

Thanks for the excellent illustration of 9's shot out of the 40.

I appreciate all the replies, and thanks.

mstreddy
June 8, 2012, 10:39 AM
Tiger wrote:
Especially MSTreddy's experiments with blowing cases.

I'm glad I'm looking at the photo's, very educational! I'm sure you are doing it safely, your still typing. It's good to see what they look like though so I'm really glad you put it on here. We can all benefit from the pictures of the real deal.


Tiger, I can tell you, those cases were not my intent at empirical studies. They came about from general inattention on the part of a couple of friends and of course -- ME.

The 9 in a 40 is really quite benign when it happens. As the above poster mentioned, it goes bang -- not terribly accurate but will not cycle the slide. My buddy grabbed the 9 ammo loaded it in my 40 and shot. We looked at what happened and said -- OK, that was strange. Realized the mix up and corrected -- no harm no foul -- but I do get to laugh at him from time to time. The 9 in the 45 was ME - ALL ME!!! I grab my Colt 1911 in 9 (or so I thought) it sits in the safe right next to the Kimber in 45 and 2 other 1911s. Get to the range with the mags for 9, ammo, etc... Load mag, shoot one round, notice the very weak report and basically a keyhole in the target, no slide cycle either. Wonder what gives, manually rack, but have to pry the case to eject to find the 2nd pictured case and sit there for a second wondering what the @#$# caused that. -- Then of course I read the side plate and in bold script is KIMBER! -- Did I mention it was a 45 Kimber, not a 9? And of course another buddy is watching me and once we figure out no harm no foul proceeds to laugh at me -- imagine that! Needless to say, I had no 45 mags, or ammo, so that ended that portion of the days festivities.
The 40 in a 45 was another buddy, grabbed a 40 that was somehow mixed in with his open box of loose packed 45 and it went into the gun, same story, weak report, no cycle and out comes item 3. Those all happened within the last 2 years, so it's not like I intentionally set out to create artfully decorated cases. But I do keep them to remind me of what inattention can cause.
When you started the thread and folks started commenting on what it could be, I had some "evidence" of what it was not, and thought I'd share.

On firing the 9 in a 357 sig. I was thinking of setting out to test it, but I was giving thought to the lining up of the case in the chamber and having an issue with the bullet getting skewed before hitting the bore. That might get ugly quick. Thinking further, if it was lined up correctly so the bullet got into the bore correctly, then you might end up with some what of a shoulder from the wider base to the original mouth.

I do, thankfully, have all my appendages and desire to keep them attached in the appropriate places, so I might leave that experiment to conjecture.

On your pic, 1 and 3 do look like the were fired in some chamber that marks up brass that way, but 2 looks like a materially weakened and failed case for some reason or another. Interesting stuff.
Thanks for posting it.

/Eddy

tightgroup tiger
June 8, 2012, 06:16 PM
Thank you MSTreddy, You are a credit to the forum.

Thanks again for posting the pictures that you have and again we can all benefit from them.

Talk to you later my friend.

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