.45 ACP bear defense load?


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CHALK22
June 7, 2012, 04:45 PM
I am heading up to Alaska for two weeks soon, and we will staying in bear country. They are a pretty common occurence at the lodge I will be at, and know to stay out of camp, but when we venture out, we will be carrying pistols. I am wondering if just a 230 gr FMJ or a 230 gr XTP would be better. I have both, just trying to decide which to take. And before anybody answers, no a .44 Mag is not in the equasion. I don't own one, and I am not gonna buy one just for this trip. I am sure either of the .45 loads would work in deterring said bear(s), but would one be better? I am not looking to kill one, just convince it to eat something else.

Comments?

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Pyro
June 7, 2012, 04:49 PM
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Loosedhorse
June 7, 2012, 04:50 PM
I personally think you might want some pepper spray. Might be more helpful "deterring" brown bear than any .45 ACP load. JMHO.I am sure either of the .45 loads would work in deterring said bear(s)...I'm not. Of course if you hit his CNS, that'll stop him; but that entails getting to the CNS. I'm just not sure how the battle of .45 ACP vs brown bear skull might go.

I'm also not sure about the meaning of "deterring"--you mean deterring the bear after he's already charging you, or just when you first see him?

plouffedaddy
June 7, 2012, 05:00 PM
Of your loads, I'd probably go with the XTP. Yes, the FMJs will penetrate more, but you're talking about detering a bear (which with a handgun is probably a smart way to look at it...) and the XTPs will transfer more energy quickly to the bear and perhaps get its' attention more quickly. That's just my thoughts, I'm sure there are some bear killing aficianados out there that know more.

If you're willing to spend $35 for the trip, I'd probably go with Underwood's 230+p GD rounds. Underwood generally hits their advertised velocities unlike some other ammo makers out there. 230 grains at 1000fps is a decently powerful round.

http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp230grainjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx

That said, I don't know that I'd shoot a 45 at a bear. Might be better off with that pepper spray.

sixgunner455
June 7, 2012, 05:05 PM
You do not shoot a bear to deter it. You shoot it to kill it. Use bear-grade pepper spray to deter it.

I would not carry a .45 ACP anything with the intent of using it on a brown bear. If that was my only pistol, I was going where there are brown bears, and I could not afford a .44 Magnum, I would get an inexpensive short-barrelled Mossberg 12 gauge, a sling, and some Brennekke slugs.

Arkansas Paul
June 7, 2012, 05:06 PM
Of course if you hit his CNS, that'll stop him; but that entails getting to the CNS. I'm just not sure how the battle of .45 ACP vs brown bear skull might go.


That's what I was thinking too. I think I would take the FMJs. No sense in shooting something if it's not gonna get deep enough to do any good.

surjimmy
June 7, 2012, 05:36 PM
I use to say carry a gun, but after watching several videos. Pepper spray would be my first choice. If you do choose a 45 like above FMJ, if you have access I would take a 10mm over the 45. JMO

Cosmoline
June 7, 2012, 05:54 PM
ACP on a brown bear? It's a heck of a risk and you'd be better off with bear spray. A guy I know here was just recently mauled, so it's not a hypothetical problem. I'd bring spray and a slug gun. Leave the pistols at home.

tarosean
June 7, 2012, 06:30 PM
I hope its a full size 1911? It's likely to hurt the bear more as it works it's way throu it's digestive system.


Bear spray would be preferable

jaguarxk120
June 7, 2012, 06:51 PM
I think a phone call is in order to the lodge and talking to people there. They can give the best advice on what to carry. It's my understanding that as long as you don't get in thier way (the bears) they will leave you alone.

kokapelli
June 7, 2012, 06:56 PM
Pepper spray for bears.

jeepnik
June 7, 2012, 07:44 PM
Not sure if any of the previous posters have actually shot a bear or not. But, I can tell you that shooting a bear in a hunting scenario taught me that if you don't hit it hard and where it will do the most good, you aren't going to stop a bear.

Now mind you, a feeding bear that's unaware of your presence isn't going to be pumping adrenalin, yet at the shot, if not solidly anchored, they can still move very fast and for a considerable distance. In my case it was going away, which is a good thing.

Now amp a bear up on adrenalin, and you now have a critter that is very unlikely to be "stopped" by all but the most powerful of handguns, and then only with a shot that hits either the CNS, or breaks the front shoulders. Yes, I said shoulders, because even on three legs a bear can still move amazingly fast and do you considerable damage. If you manage to get enough shots to break both front shoulders, it should drop and then can be dealt with.

If you are seriously worried about a bear charge (they do happen, and folks do get ate, so it isn't out of the realm of possibilty) a long gun of sufficent ballistic energy, backed up by a minimum of a heavily loaded .45 colt or .44 mag would be advisable.

The only problem, is that this combo is going to be heavy as all get out to carry around all day. And, unless you can sling the long gun, you're going to have to pick it up and set it down all day long. And Murphy being Murphy the one time you're going to need the darned thing, it's going to be out of reach, ergo the large caliber wheel gun.

WYO
June 7, 2012, 08:07 PM
I've chronographed Buffalo Bore 255 gr. hard cast +P .45 ACP at a 5 shot average of 923 MV out of my Glock 30SF with a 3.75" barrel. I've seen water jug tests done with that load out of a 5" government model and I would expect it to get decent penetration. I don't live in grizzly country, but there are a lot of black bears poking around in the woods during archery season.

ScottieG59
June 7, 2012, 08:53 PM
When I was a kid, I did some shooting with my 1911 in a remote area on my grandfather's property. There was an old junked car there from the 1950s and I decided to test the hardball 45 ACP on it. The car might as well have been a tank. All I did was make small dents in the sheet metal. If a bear wandered by, I would have jumped into that car before I would have used my 1911.

ldhulk
June 7, 2012, 09:25 PM
In reading the reports of people who have been attacked by bears and lived to talk about it, one thing keeps popping up: "He was on me before I had time to react." Often hunters carrying powerful rifles for elk hunting never manage to get a shot off before the bear is on them. On man described it as like having a wall fall on you. If you are out in the open where you see (or smell) one another at a distance you can back off and avoid a confrontation. I would say whatever you choose to carry, be ready to use it instantly anytime your are near any cover that could conceal a bear.

rcmodel
June 7, 2012, 09:32 PM
If I had to use a .45 ACP, I would use 230 FMJ and hope I could get enough penetration with some of a mag full to break the spine, or at least break some weight bearing major bones & joints. They can't charge as fast dragging three legs.

rc

jmr40
June 7, 2012, 10:24 PM
I'd invest in a can of bear spray after I get there and leave the 1911 home.

HKGuns
June 7, 2012, 10:35 PM
Bear spray.

jimbo555
June 7, 2012, 10:55 PM
Buy a 12 guage pump shotgun and some slugs and when you venture out take that with you!

Sig Bill
June 7, 2012, 11:03 PM
If I had to use a .45 ACP, I would use 230 FMJ and hope I could get enough penetration with some of a mag full to break the spine, or at least break some weight bearing major bones & joints.

That's all you can do, hope. I wouldn't face off a bear with a 45.

Alaska444
June 7, 2012, 11:12 PM
If you cant' get at least a .44 magnum, then just go with bear spray as many have likewise stated already. Too many instances where high powered rifles capable of the "big five" fail to stop a hopped up bear. Yes, a man did kill a juvenile grizzly in Denali a couple of years ago, but that is not something that anyone could count on repeating especially with a large male.

Bear spray and never go alone into the bush.

willypete
June 7, 2012, 11:22 PM
Whichever load you can shoot one of your companions in the foot or leg fastest with and run away from the bear.

hogshead
June 7, 2012, 11:48 PM
45 is better than a sharp stick. I would use fmj and hope for more penetration. "You are 12 times more likely to die of a bee sting than a bear attack (120 times more likely compared to a black bear)
You are 10 times more likely to die from a dog attack than a bear attack (45 times more likely compared to a black bear attack)
1 person out of 16,000 commits murder but only 1 grizzly bear out of 50,000 ever kills someone and only 1 black bear out of one million does. So people are much more dangerous than bears! Fear people and respect bears.
There are about 750,000 black bears in North America and on average there is less than one black bear killing per year.
For each person killed by a black bear attack there are 13 people killed by snakes, 17 by spiders, 45 by dogs, 120 by bees, 150 by tornadoes, 374 by lightning, and 60,000 by human" so you may want to carry a ground rod too.

Loosedhorse
June 7, 2012, 11:59 PM
You are 12 times more likely to die of a bee sting than a bear attack...Actually, I am not, since I am not allergic to bee venom. Though the "average person" has a 2% chance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_sting) of being severely allergic to it.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

hogshead
June 8, 2012, 12:06 AM
In addition, about 40 people in the United States die every year from a venom allergy, although there are likely other deaths from insect stings that are attributed to other causes, and therefore this number is probably a low estimate. Most of these deaths occured among people without a known history of venom allergy.

Texan Scott
June 8, 2012, 12:12 AM
Mall Ninja Moment: the ATF fee per 'destructive device' in only $500. For that plus a little, you could keep a heavy frag grenade in your pocket. If you ever need it, it'll be the best $500 you ever spent. If not, you'll have a heck of a conversation starter in the bars... 'light your cigarette, lady? OH! THAT's not my zippo! Sorry, wrong pocket..."

Of course, you'll say that's just SILLY TALK! ... but you're the guy taking a .45 to the land of the world's 2 largest bear species...

CZguy
June 8, 2012, 12:16 AM
After reading this thread, I just wouldn't go.

And that would save enough money to buy a .44 Mag. :D

lloveless
June 8, 2012, 01:48 AM
I know a person who regularly lived/worked/hiked Alaska with pepper spray and a colt officers model with fmj. Of course she also had her dog with her. She felt that moose were the greater threat.
ll

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
June 8, 2012, 03:32 AM
I can believe that more people die from bee stings than bear attacks each year . But I don't ever recollect of anyone ever eaten by a bee ! :eek: I would take the .45 and some bear pepper spray ! It seems your much more likely to have human trouble than bear trouble and the .45 will work wonders on humans ! Kevin

Texan Scott
June 8, 2012, 03:45 AM
Seriously, you're more likely to be attacked by a random drunk than a bear. Plus, if people from AK tell you they're more worried about aggressive moose, they're prob right...If you ever get to Alice Springs, Australia, look out for red kangaroos. They're big as me, outweigh me, they develop a taste for stuff in people's garbage cans... I can only imagine how humiliated I'd be to get beat down by a kangaroo... or a moose. Carry pepper spray. Sometimes, it even works on drunks.

jehicks87
June 8, 2012, 04:16 AM
Don't use a .45 on brown bear. Don't use a .45 on black bear. Don't use a .45 on a wild hog.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying be smart and don't try it.

The .45 acp was not designed to be a bear, hog, or "man" stopper. It was designed to disrupt cavalry charges. Disrupt, not stop, turn, or kill, charging horses.

Several magazines worth of 10mm is the absolute minimum I'd want if I HAD to shoot at a grizzly... and that would still be from the highest branch I could climb to. YMMV, but chances are it won't.

Lothar
June 8, 2012, 07:41 AM
Take those statistics that people are throwing around with a grain of salt. Those are presumably nationwide statistics for the USA or North America, or else worldwide statistics. Most people don't live in bear country, so of course that's going to make the per capita chances of a fatal bear encounter look miniscule. For those people who are in bear country and frequently encounter bears, I can assure you that the risk of dying from a bear attack is considerably higher, and it pays to be prudent.

That being said, I agree with people who recommend carrying bear spray. Personally, I would carry both bear spray and my 10mm. The 10mm may or may not stop a bear, but it's good against all sorts of different threats. The problem with bear spray is that if you're shooting it into the wind, you may end up incapacitating yourself. Guns work just fine when fired into the wind at short range.

Yes, a shotgun with slugs or a high-powered rifle would be much better against bears, but for people are into hiking who don't want to be encumbered by the bulk or weight, a lightweight (in terms of weight, not firepower) pistol is the next best thing. A powerful revolver would be better, but again weight would be an issue. For hiking, ounces make a difference, when you add them up across all the things you might be carrying, so you have to weigh the weight against the chances that you might need to use the gun. Everybody's situation is different.

PabloJ
June 8, 2012, 12:00 PM
I am heading up to Alaska for two weeks soon, and we will staying in bear country. They are a pretty common occurence at the lodge I will be at, and know to stay out of camp, but when we venture out, we will be carrying pistols. I am wondering if just a 230 gr FMJ or a 230 gr XTP would be better. I have both, just trying to decide which to take. And before anybody answers, no a .44 Mag is not in the equasion. I don't own one, and I am not gonna buy one just for this trip. I am sure either of the .45 loads would work in deterring said bear(s), but would one be better? I am not looking to kill one, just convince it to eat something else.

Comments?
The .45acp is inadequate for this purpose. Other then protecting young or source of food bears are probably less dangerous then people make them out to be. It took several years for that "Bear Boy" to get killed and eaten to very old one and he literally walked among them unarmed.
Best choice would be to carry noisemaker, bear spay and be with those who you can outrun if things go bad. Taking dog along would be very stupid idea. They will aggravate griz and when scared will run toward you with one close behind them......so unless you can outrun the dog you know where this is going.:eek:

mattmann
June 8, 2012, 12:13 PM
Don't really see how a 45acp is inadequate for that but, check out grizzly extreme. The most devastating ammo I have ever seen. I believe a 45 would do more than "encourage " the bear to leave you alone. And if you got a 10mm there is another option. I wouldn't trust "bear spray"

Sent from my DROID RAZR

OregonJohnny
June 8, 2012, 01:12 PM
Without throwing more bear defense opinions into the ring, I'll just let you know about my experience with the Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P loads.

The 255 grain load does not feed well in my S&W 1911 stainless government. The bullet used is a hardcast lead round nose flat point .45 Colt revolver bullet (with a crimp groove), so it is seated very deeply in the case. This makes the COAL shorter than just about any other .45 ACP round, causing the round to "nose dive" and get hung up during feeding from the magazine. Others may have better luck. I'm sure this round works fine in other types of .45 ACP auto loaders, but as with any defensive round, it should be thoroughly tested for reliability in your gun. I chrono'd this round at an average of about 930-950 f/s. A .452" 255-grain bullet moving at 950 f/s has another name - .45 Colt ;). But you get this power from a fast-shooting autoloader with more capacity than a revolver. I just wish Buffalo Bore would load this cartridge with a different bullet that wouldn't have to be seated so deep.

The other BB .45 ACP+P round I've tried is the 230-grain FMJ-FP (flat point). BB's claimed velocity with this round is 981 f/s. I have not had a chance to accurately chrono this round, but out of 4 or 5 other BB cartridges I've tested, their advertised velocities are very accurate, maybe even slightly underrated, so I have no reason to doubt that this round is doing something between 975-1,000 f/s from my 1911. This load feeds very well in my 1911, as the COAL is standard. It may not be as hard or as heavy as the 255-grain lead bullet, but it's still better for deep straight line penetration than any round nose or hollowpoint bullet.

If limited to a .45 ACP autoloading pistol for bear defense, these 2 rounds are probably your best option. You could certainly do a lot worse than an autoloader you are very good and fast with, slinging .45 Colt bullets at standard .45 Colt velocities. When people hear ".45 ACP", many of them immediately think of the old standard 230-grain round nose bullet moving at about 850 f/s. These two flat-nosed .45 ACP+P loads from Buffalo Bore change the game, a little.

BNDIT 1
June 8, 2012, 09:59 PM
Just cover yourself in bear spray and the bear won't want anything to do with you. Put some open food in your buddies backpack and while the bear is busy you can pick your shots with the .45, you'll be a hero!

But seriously I got some unfired bear spray I got for a trip last year that you can buy at a discount.

Captain Brown Beard
June 9, 2012, 12:17 AM
Don't really see how a 45acp is inadequate for that but, check out grizzly extreme. The most devastating ammo I have ever seen. I believe a 45 would do more than "encourage " the bear to leave you alone. And if you got a 10mm there is another option. I wouldn't trust "bear spray"

You're absolutely correct. You will encourage it to kill you as quickly as possible, while it laughs (Mental bear laugh) at your mosquito sting wounds from your magic bullets.

This is your best defense. Take somebody like this with you. After you get done spraying the bear with your bear spray that wisely carried with you, you will be free to evade the bear while your friend Rambo slays the beast with his all powerful wonder-gun .45 ACP. Don't worry though, it's adequate.

Because shooting twice is silly...

mattmann
June 9, 2012, 01:11 AM
You're absolutely correct. You will encourage it to kill you as quickly as possible, while it laughs (Mental bear laugh) at your mosquito sting wounds from your magic bullets.

This is your best defense. Take somebody like this with you. After you get done spraying the bear with your bear spray that wisely carried with you, you will be free to evade the bear while your friend Rambo slays the beast with his all powerful wonder-gun .45 ACP. Don't worry though, it's adequate.

Because shooting twice is silly...

I had an entire post written out to come back at this jackass but instead I will say this. It will be way better than pepper spray and if it is what you have (as you stated) then I would carry it. No one here has shot a bear with a handgun caliber I'm sure, especially the sarcastic poster above. So in my opinion, I would carry it. Wouldn't hurt anything for sure.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

dubya450
June 9, 2012, 02:16 AM
1) bear spray
2) get a 10mm barrel and mag or 40 super barrel and some hard cast loads (if you're able to convert your pistol)

I'd use the spray as my primary defense and the pistol as a last resort.

Mattmann, I'm not being a smarty pants but do a Google search on how effective bear spray is. You might change your mind.

mattmann
June 9, 2012, 11:18 AM
1) bear spray
2) get a 10mm barrel and mag or 40 super barrel and some hard cast loads (if you're able to convert your pistol)

I'd use the spray as my primary defense and the pistol as a last resort.

Mattmann, I'm not being a smarty pants but do a Google search on how effective bear spray is. You might change your mind.

I watched several videos and I see its pretty darn effective. I also just watched a video were a guy got his jugular ripped out by a bear that was getting slapped with rods andddddd sprayed with fire extinguisher sized pepper spray bottles. Although the bear did retreat, he held on about 5-10 sec before he did. And when he shook.....well that was all she wrote. God these things are beasts.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Double Naught Spy
June 9, 2012, 11:43 AM
The .45acp is inadequate for this purpose. Other then protecting young or source of food bears are probably less dangerous then people make them out to be. It took several years for that "Bear Boy" to get killed and eaten to very old one and he literally walked among them unarmed.

No, I am pretty certain bears are as dangerous as people make them out to be. Even extremely brief physical confrontations often result in the human going to the hospital and often staying for a while. I think what you mean isn't danger, but frequency of "attacks."

Yes, that bear boy walked amongst grizzlies for years. That would be Timothy Treadwell. He actually became able to do that through a long period of observation and familiarization with the bears such that his behaviors amongst the bears were behaviors they recognized as being bear social and as non-threatening. Treadwell was a very keen observer of bear behavior and no doubt had an exceptional knowledge of how to deal with most bears. Actually, Treadwell was able to get along with a variety of mammalian wildlife in ways most naturalists will ever be able to do. Treadwell made a point of not startling/surprising bears which is amonst the most common of encounters that result is direct physical contact between bears and humans where humans get hurt.

The problem with Treadwell's operational paradigm along with those of many folks who care for or train animals is that they are operating within a limited set of circumstances that are accepted as being the norm. Circumstances outside of the norm can result in unexpected and detrimental encounters and the humans involved may or may not even recognize the problem until it is too late.

Few hunters or hikers have Treadwell's insights into bear behavior, so to note his long success before finally getting killed and eaten isn't really relevant to any of the rest of us.

You're absolutely correct. You will encourage it to kill you as quickly as possible, while it laughs (Mental bear laugh) at your mosquito sting wounds from your magic bullets.

This is your best defense. Take somebody like this with you. After you get done spraying the bear with your bear spray that wisely carried with you, you will be free to evade the bear while your friend Rambo slays the beast with his all powerful wonder-gun .45 ACP. Don't worry though, it's adequate.

Because shooting twice is silly...

Wow, an opposite extreme. I would not want to rely on a handgun or bear spray to deter bears, but the fact of the matter is that they can and do work, but have serious limitations and don't work in all circumstances.

Shooting twice is silly? Many hunters with animal appropriate calibers have had to shoot bears multiple times and these weren't bears that were attacking.

HKGuns
June 9, 2012, 11:50 AM
I had an entire post written out to come back at this jackass but instead I will say this. It will be way better than pepper spray and if it is what you have (as you stated) then I would carry it. No one here has shot a bear with a handgun caliber I'm sure, especially the sarcastic poster above. So in my opinion, I would carry it. Wouldn't hurt anything for sure.

It is pretty obvious you're either very young or very inexperienced hunting wild animals. If you haven't noticed, you're in the minority opinion here and that should give you pause to consider your "opinion". Most of the "jackasses" in this thread recommend Bear spray over 45ACP. I'd imagine, most of them, myself included, have a fair amount of experience in the woods. I'd even be willing to bet that some, myself included, have Bear hunting experience. (go figure)

Deer often run away from poorly placed high powered rifle shots. They are even known to run away from some fairly well placed shots.

Bears are not Deer, they are stronger, tougher and angrier from just about any perspective. Just how effective is your 45ACP shot going to be when you're crapping your pants trying to retreat? It isn't going to be well placed and it isn't nearly as effective as a high powered rifle round. I'll let you figure out what happens next with your poorly placed ineffective round on a charging Bear.

Ash
June 9, 2012, 11:54 AM
Even so, Treadwell got himself and his girlfriend eaten.

Alaska444
June 9, 2012, 04:16 PM
Today, 07:54 AM #43
Ash
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Even so, Treadwell got himself and his girlfriend eaten.
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Treadwell survived that long for two reasons, he was quite brazen and bold holding his own ground in a dominant manner. That is something that is taught by bear experts to stand your ground bluffing the bear looking bigger than they are.

Secondly, Treadwell went to an area that had well fed "happy" bears. The bear that got him was an old and dying/starving beast by most accounts that couldn't keep up with the younger bears. Treadwell even pointed this out a couple of days before he was eaten likely by the same bear he made the comment.

Sadly, with a little bit of bear awareness and camp safety, he could have prevented his attack. A bear fence and pepper spray would have given him a measure of safety. Treadwell refused to consider pepper spray because he didn't want to cause distress to the bear. That was ultimately his down doing. His over familiarity with the bears resulted him pushing the limit too far.

The most amazing thing Treadwell survived for all of those years was not the bears, it was the mosquitoes that plagued him day in and day out for all of those years that is the most amazing thing of all. Prisoners in the Fairbanks area that have escaped almost always return to the prison to get away from mosquitoes out in the bush. One reason I don't mind staying here in Northern Idaho is that we are not plagued by clouds of mosquitoes like in Alaska.

Surviving the mosquitoes all of those years makes Treadwell a real mountain man if only a bit loonie as well, but who isn't a bit loonie to go live with bears for 13 years?

918v
June 9, 2012, 05:01 PM
Imagine a lion taking down a zebra. The reason JMB made a 1911 is because he knew people thought they were supposed to die when shot. That's how handguns work- partly because they inflict 80% survivable trauma, and partly because people have been conditioned to lay down when shot.

Bears are not people. They will not stop. Bear spray is effective cuz it hits them where it hurts- their ultrasensitive nose.

I'd take a 1911 to protect myself from other hikers, though.

Ash
June 9, 2012, 05:16 PM
Treadwell didn't survive, that's the point. He went running around in a mine field. Marveling that he survived in the mine field for as long as he did does not change the fact that he blew himself, and another, up. He was eaten by a bear. I suppose I could play Russian Roulette and folks could marvel by the fact I had a sixth sense about where the empty chambers were. I could even give the bullet a name, and talk to it. Spin, click. Made it another year. Spin, click, that guy knows his guns. Spin, boom. Boy, did he know his revolvers. He just made one mistake...

krupparms
June 9, 2012, 05:25 PM
I would carry bear spray, but I would carry that 1911 w/BB +P loads &extra mag.s. I also would look around for a 12Ga. PASG. You can pick up one used for less than $200 or you may know someone that would let you Barrow one. Use slugs & carry it in your hand. Even if you don't see them! The .45acp. will kill a bear but not quickly enough to prevent him from taking you out also!

SlamFire1
June 9, 2012, 05:53 PM
I can believe that more people die from bee stings than bear attacks each year . But I don't ever recollect of anyone ever eaten by a bee ! I

A very good friend of mine died in May 2012 from a tick bite. Only a 3% chance but not so funny when someone you know dies from a 3% occurrence.

A bunch of bear pictures with people. Look at the size of the things.

That is why the statistics are grim for people who shoot big bears with handguns. Your 45 ACP is more likely to upset the bear, turn the situation into one which the bear will kill you.

http://adventurehunts.jeffpralle.com/?page_id=89

http://abnormaloutdoors.blogspot.com/2011/02/biggest-grizzly-bears.html

Pepper spray is a better idea as it is an irritant. Handguns as a last resort.

There are plenty of jokes about pepper spray, but I will bet Hornets have their jokes about humans. I am thousands of times larger than any Hornet, but I run as fast as my legs will take me, arms flailing at the air, when one of those buggers stings me.

Captain Brown Beard
June 9, 2012, 09:21 PM
This is your best defense. Take somebody like this with you. After you get done spraying the bear with your bear spray that wisely carried with you, you will be free to evade the bear while your friend Rambo slays the beast with his all powerful wonder-gun .45 ACP. Don't worry though, it's adequate.

Because shooting twice is silly...


I feel like I should clarify that this was heavily laden sarcasm directed toward the above poster at the time. It would appear some did not pick up not this. Apologies.

CHALK22
June 9, 2012, 10:05 PM
Thanks for the replies, as well as the death statistics! I believe thers is a shotgun issued with the cabins (or have heard so). For the most part, we will be fairly safe, but I know some of the folks up there carry .45s with them. I'm gonna check the the LGS for the Buffalo bore. I would assume they have bear spray up there as well.

jeepnik
June 9, 2012, 10:43 PM
Hmm, folks quoting statistics about bee stings. Well, the numbers they spout may be true. So yea, there aren't all that many bear attacks per year. And, I guess you can take comfort in that. RIGHT UP TO THE TIME YOU BECOME ONE OF THE STATISTICS. Hey, it's gotta happen to somebody, right.

Seriously though, if all I had was a .45 acp, I'd take it along. If I could afford something better I'd get that. Either way I hope you enjoy the trip. Alaska is some pretty country, and as long as you aren't in one of the areas inundated with mosquitos this time of year, it should be a very pleasant trip.

CHALK22
June 9, 2012, 11:26 PM
Seriously though, if all I had was a .45 acp, I'd take it along. If I could afford something better I'd get that. Either way I hope you enjoy the trip. Alaska is some pretty country, and as long as you aren't in one of the areas inundated with mosquitos this time of year, it should be a very pleasant trip.

Thanks Jeepnik, I plan to! Leaving on Friday, should be awesome! And AFAIK, we are not in skeeter country.

Alaska444
June 10, 2012, 12:13 AM
Today, 01:16 PM #46
Ash
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Join Date: May 10, 2004
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 3,793
Treadwell didn't survive, that's the point. He went running around in a mine field. Marveling that he survived in the mine field for as long as he did does not change the fact that he blew himself, and another, up. He was eaten by a bear. I suppose I could play Russian Roulette and folks could marvel by the fact I had a sixth sense about where the empty chambers were. I could even give the bullet a name, and talk to it. Spin, click. Made it another year. Spin, click, that guy knows his guns. Spin, boom. Boy, did he know his revolvers. He just made one mistake...
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Actually he did survive for 13 years but in the end succumbing to his complete lack of regard for his own safety which he could have easily provided with some simple measures. Would we chastise a courageous vet who survived for 13 years prior to being killed? No, of course not.

I actually admire him in some ways for having the courage to live among these bears even if that was quite short sighted in many ways. He did choose the right bear population because inland grizzlies are much more aggressive due to lack of food sources compared to the coastal brown bears.

Treadwill did understand well standing his ground. It is a viable bear defense tactic and that is about all that he did right when you look at his actions. For that, it takes courage to be able to stand your ground and I do give him credit for being able to do that over and over again. That is a a behavior that we should emulate if caught in a confrontation with bears.

I saw another video in a Scandinavian country of a man standing his ground with a brown bear. That takes courage to overcome the natural reaction to run. Yes, I do give Treadwell that honor which he demonstrated time and time again and why wouldn't we.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6GcWhlGF3o

CZguy
June 10, 2012, 12:34 AM
I feel like I should clarify that this was heavily laden sarcasm directed toward the above poster at the time. It would appear some did not pick up not this. Apologies.

If you use some of these. :D :rolleyes:

People can understand your meaning, more easily.

Pete D.
June 10, 2012, 07:43 AM
Haven't shot a brown or been charged by one. Have hiked and fished in AK.
The impression that I have gotten after reading all the posts herein is that the OP really wants to carry his .45 ACP.
Repeatedly, though, the advice in this thread is to go with bear spray (documented by the AK F&G people to be more effective than a firearm) and/or a pump shotgun loaded with Brennekes.
So....what will it be?

I carried a 10mm Glock that had been lent to me by a friend.....more for protection on lonely highways than for bear defense.
I have a very clear memory of walking through a few hundred yards of woodland along the Kenai while salmon fishing our way from Homer to Anchorage.....emburdened with rod and waders, etc., I remember thinking that there was just no way that I could get to the gun quickly enough if a bear popped out of the brush. No way. And probably not with bear spray either, unless it was in my hand and ready to use. And no way to manouver quickly in the muck that made up a good part of the trail from road to water.
But...we did not have the bad luck of a confrontation on that day or any of the others that have followed since.

Ash
June 10, 2012, 08:44 AM
Treadwell's actions not only got his girlfriend killed, but also the bear that ate him. He claimed to work with Grizzlies but, well, they weren't, they were Alaska Brown's which are less aggressive. Spin click. Spin boom. Sorry, no honor in that.

engineer88
June 10, 2012, 12:01 PM
Well, I think the answer is pretty clear. Carry bear spray, the 45 is for the less fuzzy threats or a last ditch when the spray fails.

I do want to respond to one other post. The fellow who said that the 45 was made to harass and not kill or some such. I believe you are referring to pre-ACP 45 which was generally traveling at 600 or so fps. The 45acp was brought about due to the inadequate 38 loadings at the time to be a better man stopper from the history I have read. Do you have some other evidence contradictory to this? If so I would love to read it. Please share if you dont mind. Thanks!

jeepnik
June 10, 2012, 12:24 PM
Hey Chalk, take pictures and post them where appropriate. Show those who haven't been there what they are missing. I need to head back up that way, it's been awhile.

CHALK22
June 10, 2012, 01:27 PM
Oh, I will be taking plenty of pictures! I will be fishing, not hunting, but I bet most folks on here are known to toss a line or two...we are gonna do a bunch of halibut, cod, and rockfishing, and maybe some crabbing. We will also be heading upriver some too, and that is where the bear concers came in. Thanks for the replies!

Loosedhorse
June 10, 2012, 02:44 PM
grizzly extremePerhaps it is not clear, but Grizzly Extreme in .45 is not for grizzlies.

It is marketed as a light-weight SD round, not as an anti-bear round. It seems to not be able to penetrate even 9 inches of bare balllistic gel (http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/1565/45-acp-grizzly-xtreme-175-grain/). It would be a terrible bear hunting round...and a worse bear stopping round.

In bear country, I'd prefer a gun and pepper-spray. If you had me choose only one, and the gun was a .454 Casull with 400gr GCHCs @ 1400fps, I'd choose that. If the gun was a .45 ACP loaded with Grizzly Extremes, I'll take the spray.

Smith357
June 10, 2012, 02:48 PM
When I went fishing up in AK many moons ago the guides carried 12 gauge pump guns loaded up with slugs. They also carried bear spray and told all of us to make sure we made plenty of noise so we would not sneak up on and surprise a bear. You would be better off with a cow bell than a .45acp.

Lothar
June 10, 2012, 03:26 PM
They also carried bear spray and told all of us to make sure we made plenty of noise so we would not sneak up on and surprise a bear. You would be better off with a cow bell than a .45acp.

Agreed. The best use of a .45ACP in bear country would be to fire it into the ground every 10 minutes or so as you walk, to scare the bears away. :rolleyes:

amprecon
June 10, 2012, 06:21 PM
Although I'd rather have a long gun in bear country, if all I had was a pistol, I feel I'd be well enough protected with my Glock 21. I prefer the 230gr. bullets over the lighter ones for more mass and with 13 rounds I believe it would deter an attack as long as I was making hits.

MCgunner
June 10, 2012, 06:38 PM
I personally think you might want some pepper spray. Might be more helpful "deterring" brown bear than any .45 ACP load. JMHO.



Quote:
I am sure either of the .45 loads would work in deterring said bear(s)...




I'm not. Of course if you hit his CNS, that'll stop him; but that entails getting to the CNS. I'm just not sure how the battle of .45 ACP vs brown bear skull might go.

I'm also not sure about the meaning of "deterring"--you mean deterring the bear after he's already charging you, or just when you first see him?

I agree, and bear spray will keep you out of legal trouble. The best .45 for bear is called the .460 S&W magnum and no auto pistol I know of comes in this chambering. The guns for it are big enough, I don't know that a .45/70 carbine wouldn't be handier, though I guess you could fish with an X frame in a bandoleer holster and it'd be readily at hand, more'n I can say for a long gun.

TimboKhan
June 10, 2012, 08:10 PM
Here is a summary of this thread:

1. .45 ACP is probably not a suitable bear round.

2. Barring purchasing a new and more suitable firearm, bear spray is an acceptable-to-good alternative.

Thats pretty much that. Timothy Treadwell being compared to a vet offends me personally, but being personally offended isn't why this thread is being closed. It is being closed because at this point there just isn't much else to say.

NG VI
June 10, 2012, 10:22 PM
Any .45 ACP will work screwed in your ear. Any .45 ACP might work screwed into the bear's ear.

Probably none of them will be able to help you via firing at a running bear.

Alaska444
June 10, 2012, 11:27 PM
Today, 04:10 PM #65
TimboKhan
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Join Date: April 14, 2005
Location: Greeley, CO
Posts: 6,282
Here is a summary of this thread:

1. .45 ACP is probably not a suitable bear round.

2. Barring purchasing a new and more suitable firearm, bear spray is an acceptable-to-good alternative.

Thats pretty much that. Timothy Treadwell being compared to a vet offends me personally, but being personally offended isn't why this thread is being closed. It is being closed because at this point there just isn't much else to say.
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Dear TimboKhan, just making an analogy that Treadwell did in fact survive 13 years among the bears which is a statement of fact whether folks like that or not. The surprising fact is that he lasted 13 years which is way beyond any predictions of what his actions should have resulted. We all know of his eccentricities and delusional thinking, but heck, he did understand body language among bears and in that one aspect, he did what is recommended standing his ground.

If he had added an electric fence and pepper spray, I suspect he would still be out there telling his little bears, "I love you." In that aspect, I respect him for having the courage to stand his ground against these huge bears. I have watched his films over several years and it is clear that Treadwill did understand the dangers including the risk of death.

I have admiration for any person that faces his fears and confronts them. Whatever his psychological motivations, Treadwell did in fact live in close proximity to these bears for 13 years. Did his lack of concern for his own safety and his girl friend's safety ultimately lead to his death, absolutely!!

Sadly, his outcome was completely predictable in the end but I do respect people that as crazy as they may be who confront their internal demons. How many of us have ever confronted them in such a direct manner? Yes, plenty to criticize and condemn in his actions, but sorry, I admire his courage as well.

I believe our fascination with Treadwell as a nation must stem from an underlying admiration of what he did even though his actions are and should be condemned in their totality but in the end, I cannot condemn him in total personally. Just my own opinion and others of course are free to disagree.

BTW, I am a veteran of the Armed forces and I served honorably for 9 years and was promoted to the rank of Major before I left for civilian life. I likewise have the utmost respect for the sacrifices that all veterans gave in service to this nation.

TimboKhan
June 11, 2012, 01:40 AM
Well worded, though i disagree. This time i will remember to close the thread!

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