How do you sell a gun?


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levsmith
June 9, 2012, 11:25 AM
Hey everyone, I have been thinking about selling my AR-15 lately and I was just curious how most of you guys go about it. I have never sold a gun before so I really dont know the best way to do it. Obviously I dont want to meet at my house and I would expect the same for the buyer so do you meet somewhere in town? I've been thinking about that but thought it might look odd to some people to pull an "assault rifle" out in a parking lot. There aren't any gun ranges in town either, so how would you go about it?

P.S. Person to person transfers are legal here

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kcshooter
June 9, 2012, 11:29 AM
Find out the laws of your state, make sure person to person transfers are legal, get a bill of sale, preferably notarized.

I usually sell on gunbroker if I don't have a face to face buyer in mind, you can ship a long gun without an FFL on your end. You will have to ship to an FFL on the buyer's end. Some FFL's refuse to accept shipments from non FFL's though, so I alway specify that the buyer is responsible for my FFL dealers charge to transfer if it's required. Always keep paperwork of the sale.

Snag
June 9, 2012, 11:34 AM
Why not meet them at an FFL?

JohnM
June 9, 2012, 11:39 AM
Sounds to me like the OP really needs to find out about firearm sales where he lives.

levsmith
June 9, 2012, 11:48 AM
Sounds to me like the OP really needs to find out about firearm sales where he lives.

I know the legalities of the situation, what I am trying to find out is where you usually meet to make the transaction

JohnM
June 9, 2012, 12:00 PM
Around here we probably meet at one or others house, look things over, have some coffee, talk price and decide on it or not. Simple.

Captains1911
June 9, 2012, 12:10 PM
Find out the laws of your state, make sure person to person transfers are legal, get a bill of sale, preferably notarhzed. Always keep paperwork of the sale.
Can't stress this enough, even it it's a simple hand written record with both buyer and seller's names, signatures, make and model, and serial number of firearm, date, etc. I was recently contacted by the FBI and ATF regarding an AR-15 that I had sold thru a face to face, and having that information was invaluable.

levsmith
June 9, 2012, 12:14 PM
The last gun I sold (that I didn't sell online), we met in the parking lot of a shopping center. The last gun I bought (that I didn't buy online), we met in the parking lot of a McDonalds

Thanks sunny!


Can't stress this enough, even it it's a simple hand written record with both buyer and seller's names, signatures, make and model, and serial number of firearm, date, etc. I was recently contacted by the FBI and ATF regarding an AR-15 that I had sold thru a face to face, and having that information was invaluable.

Thank you captain. I will be sure to get the bill of sale with that info on it. I wasn't planning on selling it without a bill of sale and that nails it down

Sgt_R
June 9, 2012, 12:37 PM
Usually they hand me the cash, then I hand them the gun. Sometimes we do it the other way 'round. Usually we shake hands after.

Why, do you do it differently?

R

B!ngo
June 9, 2012, 01:07 PM
I would only meet at a public FFL (i.e a LGS). Here in CA, that's mandatory (any FFL - at least to transact the deal). But regardless, it's a well lit public place, with understanding and knowledgeable gun folks who can respond to any questions that you might not be able to answer, keep an eye out for a potentially challenging buyer (or seller) and, while not participating, ensure a smooth transaction.
Of course this is moot if it's not a F2F deal.
B

P5 Guy
June 9, 2012, 01:38 PM
Gun show, shooting range. Two of the places that I have sold firearms. Face to face, check to make sure the person has a valid Florida ID. Make the exchange. Trade or all cash whatever makes both of us happy with the exchange.

brickeyee
June 9, 2012, 02:16 PM
Can't stress this enough, even it it's a simple hand written record with both buyer and seller's names, signatures, make and model, and serial number of firearm, date, etc. I was recently contacted by the FBI and ATF regarding an AR-15 that I had sold thru a face to face, and having that information was invaluable.

All you had to say was "I sold it."

There is no federal law requiring a private party to keep any records.

dogtown tom
June 9, 2012, 02:20 PM
brickeyee Quote:
Can't stress this enough, even it it's a simple hand written record with both buyer and seller's names, signatures, make and model, and serial number of firearm, date, etc. I was recently contacted by the FBI and ATF regarding an AR-15 that I had sold thru a face to face, and having that information was invaluable.
All you had to say was "I sold it."

There is no federal law requiring a private party to keep any records.
+1

Amazing that everyone gets wound up about ATF regulations yet are perfectly happy adding something that the law does not require.:rolleyes:

Enjoy the freedom to hand another person $$$ and he hands you a gun.

kimbershot
June 9, 2012, 02:29 PM
i sell what i no longer want/need via gunbroker. gun transfers to a dealer who in turn sells (transfers) to end user. :cool:

dacotah
June 9, 2012, 02:31 PM
Most times, we just meet at a Wal-Mart parking lot. Well lit, lots of security cameras, and most folks there don't look twice at folks looking at a firearm in the back of the vehicle.

Ryanxia
June 9, 2012, 02:43 PM
+1 for public parking lots. And private sales are not required to keep records. Just make sure to see a state ID so you know they are not an out of stater.

JohnM
June 9, 2012, 02:48 PM
Humph, somebody had a gun to sell and wanted to meet in some parking lot, I'd first wonder what he was up to and then most likely tell him to forget it.

Ryanxia
June 9, 2012, 02:56 PM
JohnM - I've had a guy ask me why I wanted to meet in a parking lot and I said (truthfully) for 2 reasons;

I don't want someone coming to my house (if they assume I have a large collection which I do they might be tempted to come back)

I live in the sticks and it's easier for them to find a shopping plaza than take a bunch of back roads, etc.

Texan Scott
June 9, 2012, 02:58 PM
Depends on where you are (not the LAW, which you know, but the way most people where you live think about guns.) I live in a small town in central TX; if i met someone in the parking lot at walmart, (broad daylight, cameras everywhere) and we were calm and discreet, i don't think anyone would notice, or bat an eyelash if they did. If local LEO stopped, they'd prob give us just enough of a hard time to justify stopping to 'fondle' somebody elses' AR-15. :rolleyes:

leadcounsel
June 9, 2012, 03:35 PM
Them legal to buy.

You gun.

Them cash.

Trade.

In all seriousness, find out the laws in your state (mainly age requirements, FFL requirements, and whether any paperwork is needed).

I advise meeting in public, somewhere with a video camera over the parking lot. I try to be discreet about the trade out of the back of a SUV or something.

Meet and talk for with them briefly to figure out of they act shady. See their IDs. Some people want a bill of sale for their own records. Walk away if you feel uncomfortable.

Be alert to any possible con or trap.

Shrevy
June 9, 2012, 03:54 PM
I met someone in the parking lot of a strip mall today. Kroger, Walmart, BassPro have all been areas I have met. Bill of sale is not required by law and (like someone said) is only creating more "regulation" than is in existence (No, I did not fill out a bill of sale at my meeting today). I also thinks it sets a bad precedent for more gun laws down the road (most everyone already collects a bill of sale therefor it would just be easier if the government did it...). I follow the law, but do no more than is required by the law. Neither should you.

shooter_from_show-me
June 9, 2012, 03:55 PM
Last hand gun I purchased was from another THR member. Met at a gas station parking lot out of the way. He pulled up next to me told me to hop in his truck. Looked things over real well. Talked to him about the specific gun. He asked for my State D.L. to verify that I am a Missouri resident. Then proceeded to hand him the cash, shook hands said good-bye and I walked away with a CZ-75B in stainless and he walked away with cash in hand. Both parties happy...:D

medalguy
June 9, 2012, 04:10 PM
This is the way to do it. ^^ I've bought and sold lots of guns in the parking lots of McDonald's, banks, Academy, Walmart, even the local PD parking lot, right in front. What better place?

As long as a FTF sale is legal in your area, and I agree, find out, all you need to do, at least in Texas, is to not have reason to believe the buyer is a prohibited person, and you're good to go. Ask a few questions about the guns he has, his favorite place to shoot, just enough small talk to be reasonably sure he's not buying a gun to go and hold up the local stop-n-rob, and take his money.

A bill of sale is really useless. How do you know the buyer is who he says he is? If he's a prohibited person and he agrees to sign a BOS, how do you know he doesn't have fake ID? And how does that protect you ten years later anyway? All you have to do is tell any LEO you sold the gun way back when, you don't know who bought the gun because you're not a dealer and federal law doesn't require you to do a 4473. End of story.

By the way, I don't ask for nor give bills of sale. If someone insists that I sign one, the deal's off. I haven't seen a gun yet that I couldn't buy elsewhere maybe for less anyway. As long as the buyer had what appears to be a valid in-state DL or CHL, I do the deal.

postalnut25
June 9, 2012, 05:06 PM
I don't sell guns- I accumulate guns.

That being said, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners has a great forum at:

www.cologunmarket.com

This is a good place to post guns for FTF ransactions. You can email through the forum and set up a place to meet.

I have well lit parking lots during the day with all FTF transaction except for two. I use the public place for unknown people. The two that took place in my home were with people I was already friends with.

I don't want strangers in my house knowing where and what I have.

kcshooter
June 9, 2012, 05:53 PM
As long as the buyer had what appears to be a valid in-state DL or CHL, I do the deal. How do you know the buyer is who he says he is? If he's a prohibited person and he agrees to sign a BOS, how do you know he doesn't have fake ID?This seems contradictory.

I still believe that, in order to prevent any possible headaches in the future, a bill of sale, preferably notarized, is a good idea. The firearm's serial number was originally recorded in my name when my FFL ran me thru the NICS system. If it's no longer in my possession, I want to be able to prove it if need be.

I wouldn't sell to someone who refused to sign a bill of sale. I'd suspect there was something fishy going on and pack my gun up and take it home, or put my wallet away as a buyer. Don't like it? Too bad. It's my choice.

I know it isn't required by law, I don't see anyone saying that it was, but it is required for my peace of mind. YMMV.

oneounceload
June 9, 2012, 07:07 PM
preferably notarized

WHAT? You don't even do that for a car.......get REAL

Do you do the same for a lawn mower or some golf clubs?

People seem to want to make up a LOT of BS worrisome scenarios - if FTF is legal where you live, offer gun, settle on price, take cash, say goodbye - just like you would do with anything else you might find at a garage sale or flea market - STOP making this more complicated and harder than it needs to be, or the antis will just make sure EVERY single gun-related transaction has to go through a FFL - for ANYTHING

kcshooter
June 9, 2012, 07:14 PM
Again, you do what you want, I'll do what I want.

It's my gun. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Ignition Override
June 9, 2012, 07:17 PM
The seller with the SKS met me in the rear McDonald's parking lot in a small town, about 11:00, 2008; it was my first FTF transaction.
My Mini 14 was sold in the front parking lot (edge) of a Kroger.
These first two transactions were in very small southern towns.

The Mini 30 was sold in a fairly narrow parking lot, between a Walmart and Sam's Club, in a southern city.

Only the seller (first FTF deal) asked me to sign a small form.
As a seller, I have zero interest in creating personal "red tape"; the highly over-bloated ATF might try to justify part of its existence by creating red tape.

mgkdrgn
June 9, 2012, 08:31 PM
Hey everyone, I have been thinking about selling my AR-15 lately and I was just curious how most of you guys go about it. I have never sold a gun before so I really dont know the best way to do it. Obviously I dont want to meet at my house and I would expect the same for the buyer so do you meet somewhere in town? I've been thinking about that but thought it might look odd to some people to pull an "assault rifle" out in a parking lot. There aren't any gun ranges in town either, so how would you go about it?

P.S. Person to person transfers are legal here
It's for just this reason that I do consignment sales ... so maybe an FFL in your local area does the same.

They do all the work, you don't have anyone at your house, phone calls all hours of the day and night ... for WEEKS after the guns is sold, and you know the person that ends up with it is legally able to purchase a gun.

DesertFox
June 9, 2012, 09:06 PM
postalnut25 has my general mode of operation:
I don't sell guns- I accumulate guns.

When I do cull off something, it is not usually to a stranger. More often than not, it is a good friend or family member who bugs me about a 10/22 I let them shoot, then they want to buy.

In fact, I can only recall selling one piece to someone who wasn't at least an acquaintance.

I also love to trade.

Arp32
June 9, 2012, 09:15 PM
Only two times I sold to a stranger, I asked to meet in a busy parking lot. Cash, bill of sale, handed over the gun. Worked out fine for me.

orionengnr
June 10, 2012, 01:25 AM
Most of the time, I sell to or buy from a fellow CHL holder (on the state CHL forum).
I show him my CHL, he shows me his. We both know that we are dealing with honest, law-abiding citizens. We exchange goods/cash and go on our way.

Salty1
June 10, 2012, 01:46 AM
If I sell a personal gun I meet at my house, first of all I would not sell to a total stranger, most people on forums who have multiple posts are stand up people and if somebody feels that they could show up at my house and "rip me off" then I hope they have arrange transportation out to the nearest hospital. IMO meeing somebody in a parking lot has too much risk. You can tell the type of person you are dealing with by the messages you exchange and talking on the phone. If one has any doubt at all then walk away. Personally I have sold many guns in private sales and the people have all been great, now if you want to advertise on craigslist then you are dealing with that type of person who may not be above board. Common sense and instinct are your best friend, use them wisely

Jeff F
June 10, 2012, 01:46 AM
I figure out how much I want for it and then find someone willing to pay that price. Then I sell it to them as long as they are a resident of my state. If they are not a resident of my state it goes through an FFL and they pay all fees.

tarosean
June 10, 2012, 01:51 AM
Place ad on local TX gun sales site. - at a lower price - I want it gone not sitting on a site for weeks

meet with individual. parking lot at Lowes or Home depot if I go to the "big" city. My home if its local

Ask for ID - age and residency (I can no longer tell how old some people are.. kids that look like teens to me end up being 25+ LOL)

take cash from buyer..

DONE.

JSpear
June 10, 2012, 02:13 AM
I don't sell, but I have bought many used, i usually meet somewhere public, I've done a lot of deals at my workplace (always off the clock, company is anti gun), anywas, I don't have an issue with signing a bill of sale, if it makes the guy I'm getting it from feel better about the transaction then so be it.

USAF_Vet
June 10, 2012, 03:00 AM
Downtown, late at night in the alley behind the crack house.

Or in my kitchen, in the parking lot outside work, or the LGS.

Captains1911
June 10, 2012, 11:22 AM
All you had to say was "I sold it."

There is no federal law requiring a private party to keep any records.
You're right, but it didn't hurt a thing, and i was happy to be able to provide as much info as I could regarding the sale, especially because the rifle was transferred to me. I would never do it any other way. The federal officers were also very appreciative that I had the record.

For a scenario like mine, why the hell would anybody not want to have a record????

22-rimfire
June 10, 2012, 11:37 AM
You can sell through your local newspaper classified ads. I assume you want to sell to a resident of your state. There are state related gun forums which allow you to place an ad in there For Sale section. You should probably take some pictures and at least have them available to send via email to interested parties. Just state you will only sell to a XYZ state resident.

You can also sell via consignment through a local gun shop that does consignments.

brickeyee
June 10, 2012, 01:34 PM
For a scenario like mine, why the hell would anybody not want to have a record????

So you are dealing without an FFL?

How many sales records do you have?

Can we see them?
Please?

dogtown tom
June 10, 2012, 02:34 PM
Captains1911 .....For a scenario like mine, why the hell would anybody not want to have a record????
If you are going to have a record, make sure it contains everything you really need to know:
Did you take a photograph of the buyer?
Did you verify his DL?
How about his license plate number and blood type?
Did you Google his name before completing the sale?

There is no Federal recordkeeping requirement for a private sale.

Enjoy that freedom while you can.

leadcounsel
June 10, 2012, 03:25 PM
FTF and no paperwork is required in my state.

I used to do a bill of sale. I rarely do now. I won't do one for the other party unless they insist AND I really want the gun. I have walked on a buy because the guy insisted and I was just luke warm on the purchase anyway.

But what I do keep are records of all of my guns. I have a spreadsheet with details including who I bought or sold from. I'll note their name and city (from their ID), and how we met, and their phone number and/or usename/email address. So if someday they claim it was stolen from them or it turns out to be hot, I do have SOME record of where I got it... and likewise if I sold a gun and it is traced back to me for some reason, I can say where it left my hands (date, person, and their contact information).

With guns, unlike TVs or bicycles, I think that's a prudent step.

denton
June 10, 2012, 03:41 PM
I've bought and sold at my house and in various parking lots. Usually, if there is quite a distance between buyer and seller, a centrally located parking lot is a good place.

There are literally thousands of firearms for sale on KSL.com, so there is no shortage of in-state private sale opportunities available.

I always get a chuckle out of sellers who say the buyer "must be willing to sign a bill of sale." Folks, a bill of sale is the seller's written statement of what the merchandise is, and is signed by the seller. Anyway, I won't and I don't.

I am not required to keep any records on private sales. I make sure the person resides in my same state, which I actually don't have to do either. As long as I have no reason to believe that the other party is a prohibited person and no reason to believe he doesn't reside in my same state, I'm clear. I am not required to go looking for those reasons.

If asked, my answer is that I did a private purchase/sale, and have no records of the transaction. Cash went one way, the firearm went the other, and two guys left happy.

mr.trooper
June 10, 2012, 04:41 PM
It's just like selling anything else.

If your buyer has to drive a distance, it is courteous to meet them 1/2 way. Pick a time and place, hand over your gun, and get paid.

kcshooter
June 10, 2012, 07:51 PM
I always get a chuckle out of sellers who say the buyer "must be willing to sign a bill of sale." I'm glad that makes you chuckle.
Of course, it also keeps the shady buyers from bothering to call me.
If it also keeps you from calling, well, so be it.

I bet my gun sells for my asking price anyway.
Just not to you.


(By "you", I do mean to include all of those who refuse to sign bills of sale.)

dogtown tom
June 10, 2012, 08:21 PM
kcshooter Quote:
I always get a chuckle out of sellers who say the buyer "must be willing to sign a bill of sale."
...Of course, it also keeps the shady buyers from bothering to call me.
How on earth does signing a bill of sale keep the "shady buyers" away?:scrutiny:

bushmaster1313
June 10, 2012, 08:38 PM
Assuming it legal, I still would not do a face to face with someone I did not know or who was not well known to someone I knew well.

kcshooter
June 10, 2012, 08:45 PM
How on earth does signing a bill of sale keep the "shady buyers" away?Figured that was self explanatory. Guess not.
Because a felon or other prohibited party (i.e. shady buyers) will be far more likely move on to the next seller who not only doesn't require a bill of sale, but refuses to have one.


If the gun I used to own is used in a crime, I may be able to assist LEOs in the capture of the criminals, which makes me rest easier. I can also prove I did not have possession of the firearm at the time, rather than daring the feds to prove it.

Again, if you won't participate in a bill of sale, that's fine, you won't be buying any of my guns. Nor will I be buying any of yours.

But they are MY guns, and I can sell them however I want to.
That's the freedom I enjoy.




I should say that I do live on the outskirts of a city that does exist in two states, and it's easy to have identification from one state while legally being a resident of the other. I'm a Missouri resident. If I sell my gun to a person with a Missouri driver's license who is now a Kansas resident, I've unwittingly committed a felony. Sure, they have to prove in a court of law that I did it with intent, but have you ever tried defending yourself against a felony? Me either. Don't want to.
So I guess I believe in a CYA philosophy.

45Badger
June 10, 2012, 08:55 PM
Cash, quick glimpse of driver's license to verify state and age, "Are you prohibited?", Sold! (or bought:D).

My house, their house parking lot, etc. No big deal.

Captains1911
June 10, 2012, 09:10 PM
So you are dealing without an FFL?

How many sales records do you have?

Can we see them?
Please?
I've already clearly explained why having a record of private transfer was of value. Your failure to recognize it is astonishing.

theautobahn
June 10, 2012, 09:13 PM
I know the legalities of the situation, what I am trying to find out is where you usually meet to make the transaction

When I'm selling a gun to someone I don't know (there is a great local (northern New England) publication both paper and online in which one can list firearms for sale), I meet people in a public parking lot. Supermarkets, fast food restaurants, etc. Even if someone freaks out and calls the cops, you'll most likely be done with the transaction and be gone by then - and besides, you didn't do anything illegal.

Originally Posted by kcshooter View Post
Find out the laws of your state, make sure person to person transfers are legal, get a bill of sale, preferably notarhzed. Always keep paperwork of the sale.
Can't stress this enough, even it it's a simple hand written record with both buyer and seller's names, signatures, make and model, and serial number of firearm, date, etc. I was recently contacted by the FBI and ATF regarding an AR-15 that I had sold thru a face to face, and having that information was invaluable.

?? Invaluable ?? In my state (Maine), I can't sell to anyone I SUSPECT of not being legally able to own a firearm, and they must be 18 (for long guns or handguns [private sale]). Not only do you not need paperwork, I don't think it's a great idea. If the ATF / FBI can't prove that you sold it to someone you shouldn't have, you're clear. By no means do I condone illegal sales, but if you keep records and happen to have something dumb in them (like showing a profit on a gun sale), then they can spank you.

dogtown tom
June 10, 2012, 09:23 PM
kcshooter Quote:
How on earth does signing a bill of sale keep the "shady buyers" away?
Figured that was self explanatory. Guess not.
Because a felon or other prohibited party will be far more likely move on to the next seller who not only doesn't require a bill of sale, but refuses to have one.
Sorry, it wasn't self explanatory.

Do you really think a felon or prohibited person would have the least difficulty with writing JimmyBob Stumpjumper on your "bill of sale"?

As mentioned earlier, a "bill of sale" is for the benefit of the BUYER.....it offers nothing for a seller. You might as well sign it yourself.

The idea that a bill of sale will somehow protect the seller is a myth.

kcshooter
June 10, 2012, 09:32 PM
Do you really think a felon or prohibited person would have the least difficulty with writing JimmyBob Stumpjumper on your "bill of sale"?Do you really think it would get that far without me suspecting something? Do you think having "JimmyBob Stumpjumper" (or any false name) on a driver's license is an easy feat to pull off? Have you seen the antifraud measures on a recent drivers license?? Do you think a prohibited party would be more likely to buy from someone requiring ID and a BOS vs someone who refuses to have any record of the transaction at all?

If it makes me feel better about the transaction, what is the problem? I've said it like 5 times now, they are MY guns, and I'll sell them any way I want to. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

NavyLCDR
June 10, 2012, 10:13 PM
As mentioned earlier, a "bill of sale" is for the benefit of the BUYER.....it offers nothing for a seller. You might as well sign it yourself.

The idea that a bill of sale will somehow protect the seller is a myth.

Not true at all Tom. The Bill of Sale certainly does protect the seller. It is a signed receipt that the buyer actually received the item that they paid for should the buyer attempt to claim in court that they did not receive the item.

303tom
June 11, 2012, 12:45 AM
I haven`t in a long time..................

DammitBoy
June 11, 2012, 01:06 AM
Do you really think it would get that far without me suspecting something? Do you think having "JimmyBob Stumpjumper" (or any false name) on a driver's license is an easy feat to pull off?

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't care if you get a bill of sale or not.

Getting a drivers license with a fake name is simple. Ask any illegal alien, most of the ones I met on construction sites had three drivers licenses with three different names.

theautobahn
June 11, 2012, 08:23 AM
Not true at all Tom. The Bill of Sale certainly does protect the seller. It is a signed receipt that the buyer actually received the item that they paid for should the buyer attempt to claim in court that they did not receive the item.

I don't disagree, but would point out that NO paperwork provides the same protection (the buyer doesn't have an even remotely provable claim), plus the added advantages I listed above.

A guy I know who runs a small LGS (but does crazy volume) and has been doing so for 20+ years STRONGLY recommends no paperwork in a private sale - he's seen WAY more issues arrive from recordkeeping than from not.

leadcounsel
June 11, 2012, 11:55 AM
A BOS at least prooves you looked at their licenses and it reinforces that you did your due diligence to at least ASK them the questions to determine if they are prohibited.

If THEY lie on your BOS, then that's on them. What you really care about is 1) ensuring you did your part to reasonably determine their qualifications under the law (or rather they are not disqualified and 2) keep a papertrail to sever your ties with that particular gun.

I will ad that any gun that I rarely sell guns, but if I co, if I have completed the FFL paperwork for, I always get a BOS. I definately want a papertrail that severs my name from that gun.

It would be a real bummer if your gun registered to you were used in a mass shooting, the real shooter unidentified, and your prints all over the gun and you with no alibi...

And I disagree that guns are like anything else... we don't have special safety rules for things like TVs and desks and couches.... we cannot purposefully pretent they aren't dangerous tools and they are at times used by desperate or upset or crazy people to do harm/death to others. I don't want a gun that was in my possession to end up at a crime scene. I won't be able to wiggle my way out like Eric Holder... :)

NavyLCDR
June 11, 2012, 12:59 PM
I don't disagree, but would point out that NO paperwork provides the same protection (the buyer doesn't have an even remotely provable claim), plus the added advantages I listed above.

Really? Let's see... buyer provides the court with a cancelled check or a cashed money order and says, "I gave John Smith this check/money order for the purchase of a rifle and he never delivered the rifle to me."

What do you think would carry more weight in court? John Smith saying, "We met in a McDonald's parking lot and I gave him the rifle! We shook hands and parted ways and that was it." or John Smith presenting a piece of paper with the buyer's signature on it with a statement, "Received one Model 60 .22 caliber rifle on June 1, 2012 for the purchase price of $50."

A BOS at least prooves you looked at their licenses and it reinforces that you did your due diligence to at least ASK them the questions to determine if they are prohibited.

Only if you attach those specific documents/information to the bill of sale. The routine bill of sale only describes the item purchased, when purchased and for how much, with signatures for the receipt of the item/purchase price. You would have to be extra specific to add extra information that would prove anything about the purchaser's state of residence, age, and ability to lawfully posses firearms.

denton
June 11, 2012, 03:01 PM
Guys, I don't have any problem whatever with people choosing or not choosing to keep a paper trail on guns they sell or buy. Do what you think is best.

I am not an attorney, so what follows is simply the understanding of someone who has spent a lot of time reading about firearms and the law.

I think that some of you are overestimating your legal burden.

For example:

I've unwittingly committed a felony

Probably not.

The requirement is that you not knowingly transfer a firearm out of state or to a prohibited person. Similarly, you may not knowingly receive a firearm across a state line or if you are a prohibited person. There is no requirement that you go looking for evidence, though I think that a responsible person will check a driver's license or auto plate and will back away from a deal that doesn't feel right.

Further, the term "domicile" has a precise legal meaning, and you can have only one. The term "residence" does not, and is not defined in our federal firearms laws, and you can have more than one. If you have a home in Arizona that you live in all winter, and another in Jackson Hole that you live in all summer, you have two residences and can legally privately buy firearms in either location without benefit of FFL.

There is potential mischief in keeping receipts or bills of sale. If the authorities ask for information on a private transfer, and you produce a signed document for it, then they might ask, "How many more of these do you have? Five? Well, did you make on money on these? Are you aware that this might constitute dealing in firearms without an FFL?" Sadly, there is no bright line that tells how many firearms you can sell in what period of time without an FFL.

My transfers are very few. And as far as I know, Yugo M48s are not popular in our local gang culture (as though I would know). So I don't worry about enabling someone to commit a crime. I've had the good fortune of dealing with people who seemed like normal, stable, responsible people.

If asked, I can honestly say that my face to face sales have been one every year or so. And I'd rather not have a paper trail that a gung-ho enforcement agent could use to raise questions I don't want to deal with.

Similarly, if cash is exchanged for a firearm, face to face, then getting sued is not even on my worry radar.

My personal approach is that it is better for everyone if two strangers meet, cash goes one way, the gun goes the other, and two strangers part company, happy with the bargain they have made, never to meet again. If you disagree, I have no quarrel with you.

denton
June 11, 2012, 03:25 PM
As I said, a Bill of Sale is a document generated by the seller, for the benefit of the buyer. It is the buyer's proof that he now has title to the goods.

A bill of sale is a legal document made by a 'seller' to a purchaser, reporting that on a specific date, at a specific locality, and for a particular sum of money or other "value received", the seller sold to the purchaser a specific item of personal, or parcel of real, property of which he had lawful possession. It is a written instrument which evidences the transfer of title to personal property from the vendor, seller, to the vendee, buyer.

Anybody that asks a buyer to sign a Bill of Sale doesn't understand what a Bill of Sale is. Only sellers sign a Bill of Sale.

If you want a receipt, then get a receipt. That's OK.

Captains1911
June 11, 2012, 04:47 PM
As I said, a Bill of Sale is a document generated by the seller, for the benefit of the buyer. It is the buyer's proof that he now has title to the goods.



Anybody that asks a buyer to sign a Bill of Sale doesn't understand what a Bill of Sale is. Only sellers sign a Bill of Sale.

If you want a receipt, then get a receipt. That's OK.
What if rather than calling it a "Bill of Sale", we call it a "Record of Transfer," then do we agree that it may serve a purpose for the seller?

There is a lot of ignorance floating around in this thread....

NavyLCDR
June 11, 2012, 04:58 PM
As I said, a Bill of Sale is a document generated by the seller, for the benefit of the buyer. It is the buyer's proof that he now has title to the goods.



Anybody that asks a buyer to sign a Bill of Sale doesn't understand what a Bill of Sale is. Only sellers sign a Bill of Sale.

If you want a receipt, then get a receipt. That's OK.
You are wrong.

http://www.dcu.org/streetwise/auto/sample-bill-of-sale.html

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/misc/nwfa-bos.pdf

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bVfGTWHA7Uc/TFJNdkfzR0I/AAAAAAAAAJM/XgaIY42c9Tk/s1600/Firearm+Bill+of+Sale.jpg

Have a nice day.

denton
June 11, 2012, 06:16 PM
You are wrong.

That has often happened before, but I don't think so in this case. Spend a little time on some legal sites researching the term, and let me know.

Wikipedia has it's faults to be sure, but their explanation is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_sale

If you just call it a receipt, then my sensibilities are not offended. Humor me.

I'm really sure that everyone involved in the conversation is trying to be very responsible and to abide by all applicable laws. What we're quibbling about is how to do that, and what exposes us to the least risk.

We've all read about how overzealous BATFE sometimes is. Basically, they get funded based on the number of prosecutions they generate and the fines and forfeitures they squeeze out of people. Even though your heart may be pure, having a stack of non-required transfer records can easily open the door to conversations you really don't want to have. If the records do not exist, there can't be those conversations. There is a good reason that most large corporations have an aggressive document destruction policy, and the same reason applies to us.

Receipts for transfers are a liability. It may not be fair, and it may not be right, and it may be counterproductive to the public good. But it is so.

There is a lot of ignorance floating around in this thread.... You seem surprised?

brickeyee
June 12, 2012, 03:54 PM
I've already clearly explained why having a record of private transfer was of value. Your failure to recognize it is astonishing.

Still not seeing any actual benefit.

The police are not going to go away if they have other reason to suspect you.

Best to not deal with them at all.

How many guns did you sell last year?

Captains1911
June 12, 2012, 06:20 PM
Still not seeing any actual benefit.

The police are not going to go away if they have other reason to suspect you.

Best to not deal with them at all.

How many guns did you sell last year?
I'm done with you

splattergun
June 12, 2012, 08:40 PM
Gun show, shooting range. Two of the places that I have sold firearms. Face to face, check to make sure the person has a valid Florida ID. Make the exchange. Trade or all cash whatever makes both of us happy with the exchange.
I like the gun range method. The buyer gets to try it out, seller can feel secure.
Only problem is, the last time I met a guy at the range, another fellow made a higher offer. Good for seller, not for buyer. I don't get into bidding wars on flea-bay and won't at a FTF.

theautobahn
June 12, 2012, 09:57 PM
Really? Let's see... buyer provides the court with a cancelled check or a cashed money order and says, "I gave John Smith this check/money order for the purchase of a rifle and he never delivered the rifle to me."

Which part of NO PAPERWORK was I unclear about? Also, who the heck takes a check for a private sale of a firearm to someone they don't know? Or even a money order? You might as well have asked what I would do if he disputed the charge on his credit card?!

And with that legal thinking, what stops someone from doing that with any cancelled check "Geez, your honor, I gave Mom and Pop Store (with no cameras) this check/money order for the purchase of $XX of goods and they didn't give them to me".

oneounceload
June 12, 2012, 09:58 PM
How many go through all this crap when selling a lawn mower or a knife at a garage sale?

Captains1911
June 12, 2012, 10:13 PM
How many go through all this crap when selling a lawn mower or a knife at a garage sale?
Your analogy is failure. We are talking about items that require state and federal registration.

If you don't want to keep records of your private FIREARM sales, that's your right, but don't be an idiot and claim that having them is pointless.

oneounceload
June 12, 2012, 10:28 PM
FAIL Captain - my guns require none of those, try again

Your OCD paranoia is pointless and calling sane folks idiots is the sign of your own shortcomings

dogtown tom
June 12, 2012, 10:47 PM
Captains1911 Your analogy is failure. We are talking about items that require state and federal registration.
FYI there is no Federal registration of firearms.......and precious few states have gun registration.

Trunk Monkey
June 13, 2012, 12:24 AM
I am sure that this pissing contest has been played out numerous times all over the internet.

Bottom line; it’s your gun sell it (within the confines of the law) how you want. I don’t think a receipt of some kind is a horrible idea but you aren’t getting my DL/ CHP/ SSN or copies thereof, if that doesn’t work for you find another buyer.

I’ve said it before but if the police show up at my door asking questions about any crime I’m contacting my lawyer and asking for a guarantee of immunity from prosecution before I open my mouth.

leadcounsel
June 13, 2012, 01:07 AM
A big pissing contest for sure....

There actually IS federal registration. It typically ends at the gun dealer and the person that buys the gun... there is a form of registration right there...

For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?

Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

Last I checked, while they may be used as unconventional weapons, law mowers and kitchen knives aren't 1) under widespread state and national scrutiny, with sentence enhancers for use in the commission of a crime, and 2) aren't the weapons of choice by most violent or mass murder criminals, and 3) most things aren't serialized with databases like guns for tracing/tracking purposes or require background checks to prevent prohibited persons from buying/possessing. You don't have to complete a form and background check when buying a knife or lawnmower from a dealer...

If YOU want to be blissfully ignorant and sell to whomever without any assurances that is a bad idea. I realize not many here are suggesting that, but at the end of the day, that practice is what causes prohibited persons access and ultimately stops FTF transfers like what happened in Colorado. Not saying a BOS is a silver bullet, but asking for one can drive off the suspicious persons.

denton
June 13, 2012, 02:19 AM
I think you are trying to suggest ways to meet your moral and your legal obligations when you transfer a firearm. And if you think that is best, then I have no quarrel with your judgement.

My judgement is that a written record of a transfer is much more of a legal liability than most people suppose.

Suppose you've done 5 face to face transfers in the last year. And suppose that one of them is used in a crime. The police come to you, and ask about a particular model and serial number. You proudly show them how responsible you have been, and pull out the (flinch!) Bill of Sale.

Now your troubles begin.

You may have legal exposure in that a zealous BATFE agent might commend you for your diligence, then casually ask, "Do you have any more of these?" If you say that you do, and show them to him, he may very well file charges against you for selling firearms without an FFL. It doesn't matter that such an action is clearly unethical, and that you haven't violated the law, as written. Some agents simply don't care. They are graded on how many prosecutions they can generate and on how much cash they can extort from people in the way of civil forfeitures. You've sold more than one or two firearms, and you've made a little money at it. Especially if you and your pard chip in to rent a sales table at a gun show (rented retail space), that's close enough in the minds of some agents. There is no bright line definition of how many guns you can legally sell per year and still not be in the business of buying and selling guns.

When the BATFE leaks news of this to the media, you will be portrayed as a shady back-street dealer operating outside the law.

You could call that an unintended consequence of the way our system is set up, or an unintended consequence of trying to do your civic duty.

You are much better off if you can honestly answer that you checked for state residency, and didn't keep any records since none are required. If the police ask you to identify the buyer's photo, and can, that will help. If you're asked how many guns you've sold, then you should honestly answer that you don't actually know, but it's about one every year or two to improve your collection. Then there is nothing to tempt a zealous agent.

Most of us think of the police as being on our side. We obey the law, we pay our taxes, and we do our share in the community. So usually they are on our side. However, you cannot assume that all enforcement agents are honest, understand the law or even are very bright. Especially don't assume that they are on your side. Some of them are just as happy to get you convicted as they are to get a real felon convicted.

Far from protecting you, a (flinch!) Bill of Sale is a legal liability, and the chances that it will help solve a crime are close to zero.

Trunk Monkey
June 13, 2012, 07:03 AM
Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

With a name like leadcounsel I would have thought you were a lawyer. I don't have to answer any questions ever

You may have legal exposure in that a zealous BATFE agent might commend you for your diligence, then casually ask, "Do you have any more of these?" If you say that you do, and show them to him, he may very well file charges against you for selling firearms without an FFL. It doesn't matter that such an action is clearly unethical, and that you haven't violated the law

Which is why you get a guarantee of imunity from prosecution before you talk to the cops

Captains1911
June 13, 2012, 09:34 AM
FYI there is no Federal registration of firearms.......and precious few states have gun registration.
Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.

Captains1911
June 13, 2012, 09:39 AM
For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun?

Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...


This is exactly what happened to me as already explained, and having that piece of paper with information pertaining to the buyer made the situation a breeze, not to mention it made the feds job easier and they were appreciative. I'm not saying that it would have gone completely different if I didn't have it, but it sure as hell did not hurt and I was more comfortable having it. People's failure to understand this is beyond me.

Captains1911
June 13, 2012, 09:42 AM
FAIL Captain - my guns require none of those, try again

Your OCD paranoia is pointless and calling sane folks idiots is the sign of your own shortcomings
This has nothing to with paranoia and everything to do with common sense.

Sam1911
June 13, 2012, 09:55 AM
[Folks, simmer yerselves down now, y'hear? I understand that it can be frustrating to debate with someone who does not accept your beliefs, but there's a difference between debate and insult, and we've gotten way too far over that line. Become very polite with each other or take some time off. Capisce?]

For those that don't do a BOS... do YOU want the paperwork trail to go cold with YOU when there is a crime committed with your gun? As I've said before, I am opposed to tracking of firearms in any way, and want MILLIONS of "unregistered" firearms out there in the hands of the public. I will break the "trail" at every possible opportunity. The exceedingly unlikely possibility that a gun I once owned might be used in a crime someday (and that my link in the custody trail might somehow help the investigation) is a tiny risk that I'd willingly take -- as must anyone who is not for registration/tracking of firearms.

Snag
June 13, 2012, 10:17 AM
Never knew there was so much debate over paperwork involved with a firearms sale. Me I don't mind a bit of paperwork when and if I buy or sell a gun to a private citizen. If I ever did end up with a stolen weapon somehow, or someone I sold a weapon to commited a crime I don't end up answering uncomfortable questions.

You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

kcshooter
June 13, 2012, 10:20 AM
You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. Which is why I don't feel it's even remotely equivalent to the sale of a lawn mower or knife.

Sam1911
June 13, 2012, 10:31 AM
...a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name.
And if they bother to come ask you about it you say, "I sold it to another person. Sorry, I don't (or do) know his/her name." That's IT. There are no "uncomfortable questions" to answer.

"I did have it. I don't any more. I sold it to someone who I had no reason to believe was prohibited from owning it or who was a resident of another state, and that was 'x' years ago. I have no other information for you. Good luck with your investigation, and have a nice day."

A lot of folks enjoy worrying that having once owned a gun could link you to a crime someday committed using that gun. But the fact is, vanishingly few (like none, give or take) criminal cases ever have hinged on the simple fact that the convicted once owned that gun. That isn't enough evidence of anything to even charge someone, let along convict them of a crime. If there is no evidence that you were at the scene of the crime, and that you DID the crime, then believing you could be convicted of it just because of a 4473 is goofy.

kcshooter
June 13, 2012, 10:45 AM
And if they bother to come ask you about it you say, "I sold it to another person. Sorry, I don't (or do) know his/her name." I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?

I would feel better if I could give that person's name to law enforcement.


But that's just me.
And since it's my gun, it gets sold on my terms.

Captains1911
June 13, 2012, 11:08 AM
You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

Exactly, it seems so logical to some of us..... and my personal experience has proven it to be valuable, to me at least. I think I need to punch out of this thread.

Sam1911
June 13, 2012, 11:10 AM
I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?
I would feel better if I could give that person's name to law enforcement.
Certainly. If you can give them a name to help solve a crime, ok. My points were that 1) you aren't putting yourself at heightened LEGAL risk because you don't keep records, and 2) there may be philosophcal reasons for not keeping the chain of custody intact, though the remote possibility of minutely slowing a criminal investigation by not having that information might be one possible drawback.

As I said elsewhere, each of us has to balance the competing interests in our own way and do whichever thing is a) lawful and, b) lets us sleep better at night.

And since it's my gun, it gets sold on my terms.
Certainly so. You can ask for a DNA sample and proof of Top Secret security clearance if you so desire. Or, you may sell via the mail to a resident on the other end of your state whom you've never met. All legal, and all up to you.

oneounceload
June 13, 2012, 11:11 AM
Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.

More guns are sold by private individuals than OTC, so again, no registration - but if you want to try and cover every possibility, no matter how remote or far-fetched, please go ahead - the rest of us will live in a sane world where trying to prevent the sky from falling isn't on the agenda for that day

denton
June 13, 2012, 12:03 PM
I understand that, but what if the person I sold it to was the person who, minuscule as the chance my be, did commit a crime with it?

This is really the core issue, I think.

I think the reason we don't agree is that some argue the point from a personal responsibility viewpoint, and others argue it from a legal standpoint. And I think that the people on this board are unusually personally responsible.

Our federal and state legislatures have met, weighted all that, and have made laws to specify how we are to act and what our responsibilities are. So I think the appropriate approach is to follow the law.

The law does not specify an obligation to keep records of in-state transfers (federal and most states).

Note that both New Zealand (years ago) and Canada (recently) have scrapped gun registration schemes mainly because they were not useful in solving crimes.

I don't keep records, and I sleep with a clear conscience knowing that I have fully complied with my obligations, as determined by federal and state legislatures, and that I am not creating a needless legal liability for myself.

There is no one right answer to the question.

I think we've given the issues a good and fair airing. Everybody can consider the issues raised, make their own informed decision, and also sleep with a clear conscience knowing that they have thought it through and done what they think appropriate.

dogtown tom
June 13, 2012, 01:54 PM
leadcounsel ....There actually IS federal registration. It typically ends at the gun dealer and the person that buys the gun... there is a form of registration right there...
Absolutely, 100% wrong.
The Form 4473 that you complete at a dealer is a Firearms Transaction Record. Its purpose is to document the transfer of a firearm from a licensed dealer to an eligible purchaser. Its a RECORD of the TRANSACTION, not a registration of the firearm.

Although the Form 4473 includes information on the firearm itself it should be noted that many firearms made before 1968 did not have serial numbers and as such no serial number is recorded in the dealers bound book or on the 4473.

While you may think the 4473 is a "form" of registration, it would be almost laughable to consider it so. ATF is prohibited by Federal law from compiling a database of 4473's. After twenty years the FFL can destroy those old 4473's.
And as there is no Federal law prohibiting private transactions between residents of the sme state, the "registration" you claim exists is invalid when the buyer subsequently trades, sells or gifts that gun to another person.

As there is no Federal "registration", there is also no need to document those trades, sales or gifts.

While ATF DOES use firearm serial numbers to "trace" the history of a firearm, it is of debatable value. If a firearm is recovered at a crime scene it can be traced to a manufacturer, who will tell the ATF what distributor it was transferred to, who in turn will tell what local dealer it went to. That local dealer will be able to research his bound book & 4473's to identify who acquired the firearm from him. If that buyer subsequently sold, traded or gifted that firearm to an unknown person or does not have contact info on that buyer...........the trace ends. Thats it, thats all.

If you buy a USED firearm from a dealer that trail was interrupted after the first nonlicensee to nonlicensee transaction.

Captains1911 Transfer paperwork is completed when a gun is sold by an FFL dealer, linking that gun to a person, and the ATF requires dealers to keep these records a minimum of 20 years. Registration, transfer, WHATEVER. This doesn't happen with lawn mowers and knives.
It doesn't happen with lawnmowers, knives or transactions between nonlicensees..........yet. :rolleyes:

While it may "link" that firearm purchase to a person, ATF/FBI/etc are well aware that there is NO FEDERAL LAW prohibiting private sales between residents of the same state and that NO FEDERAL LAW requires any record of those transaction. Heck, even the Brady Campaign screams about the "gun show loophole". (which isn't a loophole.....its a freedom and right to be enjoyed)

Snag ....You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.
That occurs on TV and in the movies and does not happen in the overwhelming majority of states. As there is no Federal gun registration, nor a national database of firearm serial numbers your scenario can only exist in a handful of states.

leadcounsel
June 14, 2012, 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
Probably will never happen. Probably worrying about nothing... then again, when a handgun or AK turns up at a crime scene and YOU have to answer questions about gun running, who you sold it to, when, proof, etc... that could be a really uncomfortable and costly conversation...

Posted by Truck Monkey
With a name like leadcounsel I would have thought you were a lawyer. I don't have to answer any questions ever


Providing a copy of proof of how you disposed of a gun = simple, quick, not costly.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.

Sam1911
June 14, 2012, 09:22 AM
Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.


WHAT? You don't HAVE to provide any documentary proof of anything. How are you "fighting the system?" "I sold it." That's all you need say.

Selling it it legal. Not documenting anything about the sale is perfectly legal.

If you weren't AT the scene of a crime, and didn't COMMIT the crime, you aren't going to be charged and/or convicted for that crime just because you once owned that gun.

I'd like to see one plausible scenario wherein poor innocent gunowner Jim gets sent up the river for a killing because he once bought that gun from a dealer. No prosecutor would even attempt to make such a charge without some kind of evidence that poor Jim actually DID the crime.

Trunk Monkey
June 14, 2012, 10:04 AM
Providing a copy of proof of how you disposed of a gun = simple, quick, not costly.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc. and the trail may have ended with you.

You haven't addressed my main point which is, I'm not required to answer any questions period.

CajunBass
June 14, 2012, 10:41 AM
Your analogy is failure. We are talking about items that require state and federal registration.

I see you live in Virginia. So do I. I have since the day I was born, back during the Truman administration.

Would you care to explain the procedure for registering a gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia? Somehow or other, I seem to have missed that in spite of the several hundred guns I've owned over the years.

We'll just skip the federal issue for now.

Captains1911
June 14, 2012, 11:04 AM
I see you live in Virginia. So do I. I have since the day I was born, back during the Truman administration.

Would you care to explain the procedure for registering a gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia? Somehow or other, I seem to have missed that in spite of the several hundred guns I've owned over the years.

We'll just skip the federal issue for now.
As already explained, I was referring to the paperwork filled out when you purchase a gun from a dealer, in VA there are both state and federal forms. Those forms link the gun to a person. If I sell a gun that federal paperwork links to me, I require the buyer to sign a BOS. The idea that it could do anything other than protect me is complete and utter BS in my opinion. It has worked in my favor once already, as the "unlikely event" that someone comes asking questions became a reality for me. Do as you will, I will do as I will.

denton
June 14, 2012, 12:47 PM
Any action you take carries some risk. It's up to everyone to evaluate the risks and choose their own path.

Captains1911 chose his path, and he's pleased with the result. I am happy that it went well for him.

Not having that record = hiring a lawyer to get some legal advice, fighting the system, etc.

However, this is not something any of us need to worry about. Sams1911 has perfectly explained the proper response and its consequences. You don't need an attorney, and you are not in danger of prosecution.

Good Lord, how did we ever get along before guns had serial numbers and FFLs were mandated?

It's not an issue that deserves a lot of angst!

Snag
June 16, 2012, 12:27 AM
You buy a pistol from an FFL the thing is now attached to your name. You go selling that to someone else without doing any paperwork it's still attached to your name. Eight years go by or whatever and a law enforcement officer runs the serial number on the gun for some reason....it comes back with your name. So at the moment I can't see any advantage to not doing paperwork.

That occurs on TV and in the movies and does not happen in the overwhelming majority of states. As there is no Federal gun registration, nor a national database of firearm serial numbers your scenario can only exist in a handful of states.

All I know is at one time I purchased a pistol in Washington state, many years later I moved from Washington to California and sold the pistol to my nephew who also lived in California. He later moved to Montana or Idaho for Lineman's school, I forget which. While there he had some run in with law enforcement where they ran the serial number on that gun. Next question for my relative was why is "so and so's" name on this gun and not yours? Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine. The officer said he knew where, when, and by who the gun was purchased.

So anyway.....yeah. It's not a scenario or something I seen on the boobtube.

Just to add, I'm not one for doing any kind of paperwork, I would rather not. However, most of the firearm transaction I have made have been between relatives, and if doing the paperwork possibly saves them a bit of hassle down the road then fine.

brickeyee
June 16, 2012, 10:20 AM
Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine.

Tell him to stop blowing sunshine up everyone's butt.

There is no need to do this kind of BS.

Once the police have a make and serial number it its not hard to trace to thefirst point of retail sale,

After that it get VERY hard.

Even if another FFL had possession of the gun and logged it in and out, there is nothing to tie HIS records to the manufacturer's records.

Sam1911
June 16, 2012, 11:15 AM
Tell him to stop blowing sunshine up everyone's butt.

Gonna have to agree with that.

At the very least, it must have been more than a little "run-in" with the law. :scrutiny:

A police officer in a state (that doesn't have gun registration) has no possible way of tracing that sort of information in a simple way. If a gun is taken into police custody during a criminal investigation, the manufacturer of that gun can be contacted and asked to retrieve and provide their sale information for that firearm with that serial number.

That sale information will tell them what wholesaler or distributor they sent that gun to. The wholesaler or distributor is then contacted and can research what dealer they sold that gun to.

Then that dealer will be contacted. He can search back through his 4473 forms from that year and (assuming 20 years has not passed, so he still has those records) he can divulge who the original purchaser was.

This all takes time and requires some legwork on the part of investigators. It is not the sort of thing that is available to an officer from his dispatcher, on the side of the road, or in anything like a cursory check.

So somewhere between the officer, your deputy, and you some confusion has been inserted into the story.

(To be more blunt, unless this gun was believed to be used in a CRIME, this story just didn't happen. And if a gun is used in a crime and the officers have a gun and a SUSPECT, there's no point in running a trace. The trace can only help them locate a suspect, and it a very poor resource for that.)

Once he explained that the officer told him that he should get me next time we see each other and go to an FFL to do paperwork so the gun is in his name, not mine.And that would have been PERFECTLY USELESS. If he HAD done so, that officer's trace information would have come right back to the same point: you as the original purchaser of that gun.

4473s are not LINKED in any way. All it is is a record of one transaction at one moment. A new one doesn't erase the old one, and an old one does not somehow link forward and create a trail to the next one.

Buy a gun from dealer A today. Walk into dealer B tomorrow and sell that gun to someone else on a 4473. Dealer A has no idea that you ever sold that gun, and any traces on that gun still come right back to you as the original purchaser. If YOU get questioned about it, and you can remember who/what/when, you could send them along to Dealer B and tell them there's a new 4473 'cause that gun was sold to someone else. But if they can't find you, or you've forgotten, (or you sold the gun privately to someone else) the trail goes dead.

Snag
June 16, 2012, 11:38 AM
At the very least, it must have been more than a little "run-in" with the law.

Could of been. Didn't sound like it when I first heard the story, but yeah I wasn't there so it's seconds hand info. I was given the impression it was a traffic stop and when asked "do you have any weapons in the vehicle" my nephew said yes.

Sam1911
June 16, 2012, 11:51 AM
An officer with a gun's serial number generally has the ability to call in and check if that gun has been registered as STOLEN with a stolen guns database. If it comes back negative, that's all the information he's got, unless his state has some kind of registration.

If his state has a firearms registry, he could look to see if that gun is registered to the person s/he has stopped, and might be able to see what other name that gun is registered to. But MT and ID have no gun registry.

So someone has some explaining to do. If the officer really did somehow come up with your name, while standing on the side of a highway in a distant state -- that would be etremely interesting. But I'd bet 100:1 against.

dogtown tom
June 16, 2012, 12:12 PM
Sam1911 ....So someone has some explaining to do. If the officer really did somehow come up with your name, while standing on the side of a highway in a distant state -- that would be etremely interesting. But I'd bet 100:1 against.
It is also possible that the officer at the traffic stop was using those questions as an investigative technique.......he knows there ISN'T a registry of firearms AND he's pretty sure the person he stopped DOESN'T know that.

Asking "why is so and so's name on this gun and not yours?" might get the subject flustered and thats exactly what the officer wants.....a reason to investigate further.

Sam1911
June 16, 2012, 12:29 PM
DT, yes, that is certainly so, though I didn't mention it because I got the impression Snag's nephew was saying that the officer actually produced Snag's actual name. That would be quite a feat.

"This gun isn't registered to you...why is that?" is pretty easy to toss out.

"This gun isn't registered to you, it's registered to Jim Smith of Akron, OH. Why is that?" is a whole 'nother thing. And I contend cannot be done. (In most states.)

rhodco
June 16, 2012, 03:32 PM
You guys are so funny! Making up all these little rules for selling your guns to make you feel like you are helping to stop bad people from getting them. This is hilarious!

A buyer (of Anything) should always ask for a written receipt to prove he paid for the item. The seller doesn't need to care one way or the other. You got your money and the deal is done. How arrogant to impose your personal requirements for selling where no such law exists. I have nothing to hide, but I would not buy anything from you on principal alone. You infringe upon my rights with your hoops to jump through and you won't get my business. We call that a free market.

When I am the seller, I just make sure the money is real and the buyer looks old enough to be legal. It is not my responsibility to confirm his legal status, it is his. We have no way of knowing whether he is a good guy or a bad guy. He alone is responsible for what he does with it, not me.

kcshooter
June 16, 2012, 03:42 PM
I would not buy anything from you Damn right you wouldn't.
Based solely on your arrogant attitude, I wouldn't sell you a thing.

Trunk Monkey
June 16, 2012, 03:47 PM
How arrogant to impose your personal requirements for selling where no such law exists. I have nothing to hide, but I would not buy anything from you on principal alone. You infringe upon my rights with your hoops to jump through and you won't get my business.

They are disposing of their own property, in a manner of their choosing, consistant with (or at least not circumventing) the law.

How is that arrogant and how are they infringing your rights?

It's their property and their right to dispose of it (within the confines of law) as they see fit

We call that a free market.

Which is why they have every right ( Again, within the confines of law) to dispose of their property as they see fit

Snag
June 16, 2012, 05:12 PM
So someone has some explaining to do. If the officer really did somehow come up with your name, while standing on the side of a highway in a distant state -- that would be etremely interesting. But I'd bet 100:1 against.

Just to clarify the officer really did come up with my name. That's the only point I was trying to make. That the officer easily came up with where, when and by who the gun was purchased. I know that much is true because my nephew asked me what the hell Kesselring was, which is the name of the place I bought it. He wouldn't of know that if the officer didn't tell him. What I don't know is if it was just a traffic stop.

I understand the skepticism. I wouldn't, and didn't, think it was possible until what I described before happened. Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread or anything with that story.

.....because I got the impression Snag's nephew was saying that the officer actually produced Snag's actual name

Correct, that was the impression I was trying to give.

Warp
June 16, 2012, 05:49 PM
How do I sell a gun?

I post it in the sale section of a gun forum, often a local forum.

When somebody expresses interest I meet them somewhere local and public.

They bring cash (or use a nearby ATM), I bring the gun. We swap.

The End.


I have done this four times so far

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