About private sell a gun in Virginia


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efeng9622
June 10, 2012, 09:22 AM
I sold my Remington 597 .22 rifle yesterday in a Gun show. He isn't a gun dealer or gun store's boss but looks like pretty good person. I asked him to give me a receipt. He just wrote on a blank paper, put his name, date, gun's model , serials # , price. his phone number. I asked him to show me the drive license and put the number there. he hesitated a whole but eventually put there because I insisted. I told him this is my first time to do private sell and I don't know if I did every thing was legal. He said in Virginia it is legal even he doesn't give to me any paper as long as I agree. I give to him the gun and he give to me money . that's it. I just want to double check that.

Thanks!

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Apple a Day
June 10, 2012, 10:22 AM
No paperwork required in Virginia for a private sale.
God bless the Commonwealth.

Jaxondog
June 10, 2012, 10:32 AM
Don't tell the Democrat's :D

brickeyee
June 10, 2012, 12:41 PM
And we have a far lower crime rate than Washingtoon and Maryland.

NavyLCDR
June 10, 2012, 01:25 PM
I asked him to show me the drive license and put the number there. he hesitated a whole

Personally, I would have called off the deal. If I walked up to you on the street and asked to copy information from your driver's license, would you let me? Just because I am buying a gun from you makes you no less of a stranger to me than the random guy walking up to me on the street. Want to SEE my driver's license to verify my state of residence and age? Sure, no problem. Copy it or the information on it? Nope.

In any sale of a major item, a bill of sale showing that the buyer received the item and showing that the seller received the purchase price is always a good idea. But all that is required for that bill of sale to hold up in court is name of the parties, date, description of item sold and compensation received with signatures of the parties.

No paperwork at all is required for private transfer of firearms in Virginia.

Patriotme
June 10, 2012, 02:13 PM
NavyLCDR is correct but I would want to see some ID from someone that I'm buying a gun from or selling a gun to. I might not write the person's name down in front of them but I'm definately putting it in my records. I might even write down their plates as they drive off.
A driver's license will either have a social security number or a driver's license number on it so I can understand someone not wanting you to write their info down. The same can be said for their address. If they wanted you to know where they live and where the rest of their guns are then they would have had you meet them at home.
I regret selling some guns in my younger days without getting any info from the buyer. Most of the buyers were people that I knew at the time but can barely remember today. Should the ATF knock at my door asking about the SKS that I sold 7 years ago or the shotgun I sold 10 years ago I would be hard pressed to provide any relevent info. I won't make that mistake again.

Sam1911
June 10, 2012, 02:26 PM
Should the ATF knock at my door asking about the SKS that I sold 7 years ago or the shotgun I sold 10 years ago I would be hard pressed to provide any relevent info. I won't make that mistake again.

Of course, you don't have any requirement to provide them any such information. You do not have to know anything about them, nor provide the ATF or the FBI any information about them. So that's not a "mistake."

NavyLCDR
June 10, 2012, 03:58 PM
Should the ATF knock at my door asking about the SKS that I sold 7 years ago or the shotgun I sold 10 years ago I would be hard pressed to provide any relevent info. I won't make that mistake again.

Why should you be obligated to provide any relevant information? "I sold it to a person whom I had no reason to believe was prohibited in any way from possessing it and whom I had no reason to believe was not a resident of the same state I was at the time." That's all that is required, by Federal law. A few states have more restrictive laws.

Even if I knew who I sold the gun to, I would not provide than information to the ATF or any LEO agency.

MAKster
June 10, 2012, 09:09 PM
Well if it turns out that gun which you are on record as owning turned up at a murder scene it would surely make you a suspect. I sure hope you have a credible alibi for your whereabouts at the time of the murder.

oneounceload
June 10, 2012, 09:49 PM
Should the ATF knock at my door asking about the SKS that I sold 7 years ago or the shotgun I sold 10 years ago I would be hard pressed to provide any relevent info. I won't make that mistake again.

So how many prison terms did those sales cost you? I'm thinking NONE - yet ANOTHER "OMG what IF the world is falling apart" statements with NO basis in reality

I sure don't get what is with the folks here today who think everyone is a terrorist buying their guns

Patriotme
June 10, 2012, 10:09 PM
So how many prison terms did those sales cost you? I'm thinking NONE - yet ANOTHER "OMG what IF the world is falling apart" statements with NO basis in reality

I sure don't get what is with the folks here today who think everyone is a terrorist buying their guns
It's not an, "OMG moment" and I don't think that terrorists are buying my guns. The world isn't falling apart. Most of your statements make no sense but I understand that you're trying to be a (online) rebel that won't bow to either common sense or law enforcement.
If one of my former guns ends up at a crime scene then I'd kind of like that crime solved. I have this weird kind of morality that you might not understand.
If a firearm that once belonged to me is found at a rape, robbery, murder, etc then I have this really odd hope that the criminal is caught and I have no problem sending the police to the last known guy that had that gun.
I'm kind of funny like that.
I have a wife and daughter. I've got friends and family. I don't see any sense, any honor or any gain in trying to hinder an investigation into a gun crime. Do you feel that by stonewalling the ATF (as if you really would) you help make the world a safer place for your family? If one of your old guns is recovered at a murder are you going to brag about how you withheld info from law enforcement?
I hope not. I hope that you have more sense than that.
If the police want to know how one of my Rugers from 5 years ago ended up at a murder then I have no issues with helping them find the last person I know with that gun.
I don't feel the need to protect criminals. If you do then I pity you.

Patriotme
June 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
Well if it turns out that gun which you are on record as owning turned up at a murder scene it would surely make you a suspect. I sure hope you have a credible alibi for your whereabouts at the time of the murder.
I think that it would depend on how long the time period is between the purchase of the weapon and it's recovery at a crime scene. If it's a week you may find yourself pretty busy. It it's years then you're less likely to be a suspect.
Either way you are one more name for the police to cross off their list whether you cooperate or not so why mess around with stupid games?
Send the police to the last known guy that had that gun. Maybe he'll know where that gun went . Hope that they manage to take one more criminal off of the street.
You kind of made my point for me. If I am the last known owner of that recovered firearm the I really would like to have somewhere else to send the police.

Sam1911
June 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
Well if it turns out that gun which you are on record as owning turned up at a murder scene it would surely make you a suspect. I sure hope you have a credible alibi for your whereabouts at the time of the murder.

Nope. Not even a little bit. To be a suspect of a murder you have to have some realistic, direct evidence that you were THERE and DID IT. A gun that was once owned by you is not any sort of evidence that you've committed murder. It is one spot investigators could possibly start looking -- IF they can even so far down the trail of ownership as you. IF you were the first owner and the FFL still has the 4473 and the investigators can locate you now, "Nope. Sold it to a resident of my state years back. Didn't catch his name." Period. End of story. (In other words, tell the truth!)

No prosecutor EVER has gotten an indictment of a person for whom the sum total of evidence was, "Well, gosh, his name is on the 4473."

dogtown tom
June 10, 2012, 10:25 PM
MAKster Well if it turns out that gun which you are on record as owning turned up at a murder scene it would surely make you a suspect.
Seriously?:rolleyes:

Patriotme
June 10, 2012, 10:27 PM
Why should you be obligated to provide any relevant information? "I sold it to a person whom I had no reason to believe was prohibited in any way from possessing it and whom I had no reason to believe was not a resident of the same state I was at the time." That's all that is required, by Federal law. A few states have more restrictive laws.

Even if I knew who I sold the gun to, I would not provide than information to the ATF or any LEO agency.
So if a gun that you sold to an aquaintance 10 years ago is recovered next to the body of a dead coed you would feel no obligation to give the police any information as to the last known owner of that gun?
I seriously hope that you are a better person than that.

Listen up guys.....I get the internet posturing but it's time for some common sense. If the ATF is snooping around and wanting to see the 2 AR's you bought last year then that's one thing. If they are trying to trace a weapon that was used in a killing then that's entirely different and I really hope that all of the tough talk is just that.

Sam1911
June 10, 2012, 10:35 PM
I don't feel the need to protect criminals. If you do then I pity you.
I do not. I also don't care to promote the police state mentality that our guns need to be recorded and tracked.

Quite frankly, I WANT millions of "unregistered" "untraceable" "anonymous" guns out there in the world. I'd rather the string of custody be broken at every turn. If I can contibute to creating broken links in the record, I will.

It is a difficult path to walk, between the two evils of being 'soft on crime' and registration/tracking. We each have to decide how to balance those issues in whatever way helps us sleep at night.

splattergun
June 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
Most of the guns I own have been private sale. I don't remember who the h..l I bought them from, and I doubt they remember who they sold them to. Only 1 of those I actually got a bill of sale for. I stashed it with my other receipts for valuable assets.

A bill of sale? Fine. Do your best to not sell to a criminal? Sure, to the best of your limited ability. Keep a transfer record? NO WAY!

oneounceload
June 10, 2012, 11:11 PM
I don't feel the need to protect criminals. If you do then I pity you.


Seriously? Where did THAT come from?

I pity someone like you who obviously has no idea what your rights are, nor what the legal requirements are. Folks like you perhaps should pursue other hobbies where the paranoia level isn't as high - perhaps golf or fishing

Ignition Override
June 11, 2012, 02:27 AM
Luckily very few Enfield or Mauser rifles are used in liquor/convenience store robberies, drive-by shootings, or crimes of passion.

The democratic politicians in CA, MA or wherever would be encouraged to know that none of my guns were or will be sold with bayonets, as we know that drive-by bayonetings are common.

On a serious note, one huge bureaucratic agency already has some control over the jobs of vast numbers of us, and I will do nothing regarding a hobby to help justify any other over-bloated bureaucracies, especially the ATF, which "allegedly" has conducted criminal operations, among other crooked activities.

Patriotme
June 11, 2012, 06:20 AM
Seriously? Where did THAT come from?

I pity someone like you who obviously has no idea what your rights are, nor what the legal requirements are. Folks like you perhaps should pursue other hobbies where the paranoia level isn't as high - perhaps golf or fishing
I know exactly what my rights are but don't feel the need to possibly hinder an investigation for no real reason. In your earlier post you clearly stated that assisting an investigation was close to being hysterical about guns. Perhaps you should read it over again.
There's a saying that rings true. "Just because you can doesn't mean that you should."
Yes, you don't have to cooperate with LEO if they are trying to trace a gun or solve a crime. You can stall, stonewalling or obstruct an investigation if you believe that that is your, "Right." If you're innocent then you are totally correct in that regard. You may not be morally right but you're legally correct at least.

Patriotme
June 11, 2012, 06:35 AM
Some of you misunderstood my earlier comment about recording the name of a gun buyer.

I want that information. If you don't then so be it. Many of you will state over and over that gun owning is a responsibility yet from your statements in this thread don't support that. So be it. To each his own.

I support having unregistered guns but I want to know where MY guns go when they leave my possession. Once they find a new home it's up to that gun owner to keep up with them. My job is done. If some of you really don't care where your guns end up then that's your choice.

My wanting to know something as basic as the name of the man buying my firearms is not registration, government intrusion or a violation of rights.
Yes, I know my rights and I know the gun laws of my state. I also know what MY minimum requirement is when I sell a gun today and my personal standards are stricter today then they were at 25 years old. My original post was just that. My standards. If you have none then again.....so be it. Thump your chest proudly and tell the world that you are standing up for your "Rights" by taking absolutely no steps to keep your gun from being sold to a criminal.

Some of you seem to think that my earlier post dealt with cooperating with what is basically an AFT fishing expedition. It was pretty clear but let me try again for those that didn't get it.
No, I don't feel the need to cooperate if the ATF wants to see the 2 AR's I bought last year or the 2 handguns that I bought this year.
If however a gun that I sold several years ago is recoverd at a crime scene then it is ABSOLUTELY STUPID not to give LEO the name of the guy that bought the gun. If you feel comfortable hindering an investigation because it's, "Your right" to do so then something is wrong with you.
Yes, you're innocent and have no reason to get involved or provide the most basic help whatsoever. I wouldn't think that would be something to take pride in however.

Once again, [B]I[B] plan to record the name of the buyer in all of my future gun sales. If you don't care then that's your choice. My personal records are not registration or a gov database.

evan price
June 11, 2012, 06:57 AM
And yet another entry on the "People I will never buy a gun from" list.

I'm not concerned about some nefarious government list.

I just want YOU (the seller intent on recording my personal info) to have a comprehensive plan for maintaining that my information is not lost, misplaced, stolen, or misused. Say that piece of paper you wrote all my info on gets misplaced? Will you be liable for any possible damage to my financial well-being that may come of it? If, after giving you all of my info, I discover someone has opened a fraudulent credit card in my name...should I assume you have been careless with my data and take action accordingly?

When I buy or sell I ask to see your valid state ID. I'd expect to show my ID to the other party. But nobody copies my info down. Period. If that's a deal breaker, so be it.

Sam1911
June 11, 2012, 07:19 AM
Yes, you don't have to cooperate with LEO if they are trying to trace a gun or solve a crime. You can stall, stonewalling or obstruct an investigation if you believe that that is your, "Right." If you're innocent then you are totally correct in that regard. You may not be morally right but you're legally correct at least.
Now, I would never condone active interference with an investigation or lying to the police who are trying to solve a crime. That's substantively different from saying that I do not keep records of transactions and willingly break the chain of custody where possible. As I said, "tell the truth." When I say "I don't know" that's precisely what I mean. I don't know. Not, "I know, but I'm not telling."

If nothing else, unpleasant things may happen to you if you obfuscate to the wrong people, under the wrong situations, at the wrong time.

As I said, everyone must walk a line between what they find unacceptable on one side and unacceptable on the other. We're all free to do business, or not, as we please.

oneounceload
June 11, 2012, 08:40 AM
Yes, you don't have to cooperate with LEO if they are trying to trace a gun or solve a crime. You can stall, stonewalling or obstruct an investigation if you believe that that is your, "Right." If you're innocent then you are totally correct in that regard


NO one is saying to stall or hinder anything. How many of your ten year old gun sales have resulted in the cops coming to question you about their whereabouts? PLEASE gimme a break. I keep a record of when I sold the gun - but that is for MY homeowner's insurance.

And even IF, in the slightest, remotest chance one of your guns from 10 years ago was used in a crime and then in the slightest most remote possibility the cops could actually trace it back to you - THEN what? Most likely that gun has changed hands more than once or twice in that decade, so your info is moot

Folks who think that preparing for every remote possibility - whether it is selling or even possession, are really wasting a lot of time and effort that could be put to better use

Sam1911
June 11, 2012, 09:27 AM
Folks who think that preparing for every remote possibility - whether it is selling or even possession, are really wasting a lot of time and effort that could be put to better useOk, but writing down the name the buyer gives you isn't really going to a lot of effort. So if that's where one chooses to draw his/her personal line, then I can't see faulting them for that.

Some folks want to go a lot further, demanding the opportunity to copy down and record lots of contact info, some want to see a CCW permit/license. Some want to do all transactions through an FFL because they think it makes them safer somehow. To me that's getting way off into crazy land (;)) but writing down a name? Hey, if it makes you more comfortable? No harm done.

oneounceload
June 11, 2012, 10:37 AM
No argument on the name Sam- I am talking about all of the other ridiculous stuff because, it seems, that folks believe everyone is about to either: rob/kill them, sell them stolen guns, or is a criminal looking to buy their guns - reality shows it isn't so

medalguy
June 11, 2012, 01:16 PM
Just curious-- has ANYONE on this forum ever had the police come to you asking about a firearm you sold previously and they later recovered after being used in a crime and it was traced back to you at some point by some method? Ever?

I would love to know just how many firearms have been bought and sold by members of this board through the years so we could put a percentage on the guns later used in crimes. I'll wager it's an infintesimally small number. Probably nonexistant if you consider a gun legally sold was later used in a crime.

To the OP: I would NEVER allow you or anyone else (other than a LEO) to copy ANY information off my DL, CHL, or any other document with my personal information on it. And I would never ask you or any other gun buyer/seller for that information. Frankly, it's none of my business. I rarely sell guns, but when I do, I ask the potential buyer if he's a resident of my state, and if he is prohibited from buying the gun. I don't and can't run a background check. Oh, I forgot, that's the "gun show loophole." Sorry.

If you want to have all this protection you apparently seek, I would suggest that whenever you buy or sell a gun, do it through a FFL and you will have the safety (?) and assurance (?) of knowing there is a 4473 out there somewhere with all the information you want written down, sitting in a FFL's file cabinet, which is absolutely no use to anyone since it's more than likely that a gun used in a crime has been stolen from its legal owner, not purchased from a FFL.

efeng9622
June 11, 2012, 02:33 PM
The reason I want to get his Drive license# because I think only this ID number can make me no need to worry about . I think the name and phone # is not good enough because it can be changed. I knew maybe I don't need to ask but I want to make myself more safer. At least I have a paper which can clearly identify I already sold this gun to a person since that day………..

wojownik
June 11, 2012, 03:29 PM
I'm not sure I get the dilemma here. Just ask him to show that he has a VA DL and/or VA CHP just to see that he's a resident, have a bill of sale form that he can print and sign his name, and you've documented the transaction, haven't you? Otherwise, just use the services of a local FFL.

NavyLCDR
June 11, 2012, 03:50 PM
The reason I want to get his Drive license# because I think only this ID number can make me no need to worry about . I think the name and phone # is not good enough because it can be changed. I knew maybe I don't need to ask but I want to make myself more safer. At least I have a paper which can clearly identify I already sold this gun to a person since that day………..

You can certainly ask for whatever you want from the buyer - ID numbers, fingerprints, birth certificate, DNA sample... just be up front about it in the sale listing so the seller doesn't have to waste their time and they can pass you up on your deal and requirements right up front.

dogtown tom
June 11, 2012, 03:53 PM
NavyLCDR You can certainly ask for whatever you want from the buyer - ID numbers, fingerprints, birth certificate, DNA sample... just be up front about it in the sale listing so the seller doesn't have to waste their time and they can pass you on your deal right up front.
+1000

efeng9622
June 11, 2012, 05:02 PM
I didn’t ask that much ( B- certificate and DNA) , It was big joke if I did. Only VA DL# is necessary or at least he can show me. I can know he is a VA resident. He wrote down and also asked my name and phone #. I gave to him. We finished this deal pretty happy.

Trunk Monkey
June 12, 2012, 07:12 PM
I’m up in the air on this one, if I’m going to spend 500+ dollars on something I think it’s in my best interest to have a bill of sale proving my ownership. Having said that the whole photocopy of the driver’s license and all that is too much I don’t know you and I don’t know who is going to get that information after I leave you.

If it’s that much of a concern why not just do the transaction through an FFL?

Finally, if the police ever show up on my doorstep telling me that my name has come up in connection with a murder the only words they’ll hear from me are “I’d like to speak with an attorney please.”

medalguy
June 12, 2012, 07:25 PM
The only words they NEED to hear from you is "I sold the gun a while back to a legal resident of Virginia as evidenced by showing me a Virginia DL, and I had no reason to believe he was a prohibited person. Good day, officers."

B!ngo
June 12, 2012, 07:30 PM
It's not an, "OMG moment" and I don't think that terrorists are buying my guns. The world isn't falling apart. Most of your statements make no sense but I understand that you're trying to be a (online) rebel that won't bow to either common sense or law enforcement.
If one of my former guns ends up at a crime scene then I'd kind of like that crime solved. I have this weird kind of morality that you might not understand.
If a firearm that once belonged to me is found at a rape, robbery, murder, etc then I have this really odd hope that the criminal is caught and I have no problem sending the police to the last known guy that had that gun.
I'm kind of funny like that.
I have a wife and daughter. I've got friends and family. I don't see any sense, any honor or any gain in trying to hinder an investigation into a gun crime. Do you feel that by stonewalling the ATF (as if you really would) you help make the world a safer place for your family? If one of your old guns is recovered at a murder are you going to brag about how you withheld info from law enforcement?
I hope not. I hope that you have more sense than that.
If the police want to know how one of my Rugers from 5 years ago ended up at a murder then I have no issues with helping them find the last person I know with that gun.
I don't feel the need to protect criminals. If you do then I pity you.
Well put. I completely agree. And no amount of government fear or hatred that some may bear will inhibit me as well from fulfilling such a moral or civic duty.
B

B!ngo
June 12, 2012, 07:41 PM
I’m up in the air on this one, if I’m going to spend 500+ dollars on something I think it’s in my best interest to have a bill of sale proving my ownership. Having said that the whole photocopy of the driver’s license and all that is too much I don’t know you and I don’t know who is going to get that information after I leave you.

If it’s that much of a concern why not just do the transaction through an FFL?

Finally, if the police ever show up on my doorstep telling me that my name has come up in connection with a murder the only words they’ll hear from me are “I’d like to speak with an attorney please.”
Well, they'd hear from me, 'Please come in and sit down. How can I help?'. I foolishly still believe that doing the right thing generally works out well for me and others in the end. Yes, not always, but much more often than not.
Some of the responses here sound like the sentiment is to not hinder the police, ATF, etc., but not to help them either. Why not? How can people shout to the rooftops about their 2nd amendment rights, but not of their obligations of citizenship?
I'm hanging my head at the moment.
B

Sig Bill
June 12, 2012, 07:52 PM
I have wondered about this thing myself and here in Tx no need to register but what's the purpose of the 4473 form? I have to claim that I'm not mentally ill, not a fugitive, not an illegal alien, blah blah blah to buy my guns from the range.

On private gun sales all is needed is a valid DL in said state and to ask questions which you can't prove they're telling you the truth.

Sounds screwy don't it?

oneounceload
June 12, 2012, 08:50 PM
f the police want to know how one of my Rugers from 5 years ago ended up at a murder then I have no issues with helping them find the last person I know with that gun.
I don't feel the need to protect criminals. If you do then I pity you.

OH BS - you still haven't said how many of your guns have wound up in crimes and how many criminals your data has helped capture.....why? Because the answer is ZERO

skt239
June 12, 2012, 08:53 PM
Even without papers, it's all above board. However, I'm not sure how comfortable I am giving out my info.

Trunk Monkey
June 12, 2012, 10:11 PM
Well, they'd hear from me, 'Please come in and sit down. How can I help?'. I foolishly still believe that doing the right thing generally works out well for me and others in the end. Yes, not always, but much more often than not.
Some of the responses here sound like the sentiment is to not hinder the police, ATF, etc., but not to help them either. Why not? How can people shout to the rooftops about their 2nd amendment rights, but not of their obligations of citizenship?
I'm hanging my head at the moment

Simple, I don’t know why the police are at my door all I know is that my name came up in connection with a murder investigation. That’s enough for me to know that I am suspected of something.

Bottom line; in that situation my interests are best served by competent legal counsel and counsel or no I’d probably only agree to talk if I was guaranteed immunity from prosecution

Patriotme
June 16, 2012, 10:54 AM
oneounceload:

That is true. None of my guns (to my knowledge) have ever ended up in the hands of criminals. I generally only sell to people that I know and for those that I don't know.....if you want the gun then you better make a decent impression. I don't need a few hundred dollars so badly that I'll sell to someone that looks incompetent, a minor or a criminal.
Yes, you're correct. My precautions have thus far been unneccessary.....just like my homeowner's insurance, car insurance and life insurance.
Hindsight is 20/20. I prefer to take a few basic precautions and the simple action of spending a few seconds recording the name of a guy buying my guns is not that big of an inconvenience. The buyers are notified ahead of time and if it's a big deal for them then there's plenty of other guns for sale across VA.
So I'll say it again....none of my gun sales from 5 or 10 years ago have resulted in a visit from the local LEO. I'm glad about that.
Suppose however I sell a gun next week and the police knock on my door a month later wanting to know where that .357 that was recoverd in a shooting went? I'd like to be able to steer them in the right direction. Whoever said that my leads from 10 years ago are outdated and of little help is probably right. My records of the last year or so my however be of some help. I am willing to put my name on a bill of sale and if a buyer has an issue letting me know his name then he is wasting both his time and mine.

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