Kabooms! (Tons of pics)


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intercooler
June 10, 2012, 12:47 PM
Stumbled on this and thought OMG... I have owned a few included the much pictured P22.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=56306

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Carne Frio
June 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the great link and photos !

intercooler
June 10, 2012, 01:04 PM
I do ears and eyes but nothing on the hands. I think I will search out the best shooting gloves just in case.

I don't understand the Walther issues since those aren't reloads but the others have much been attributed to reloads. Squibs, double-charges, etc... Part of why I don't reload.

Tommygunn
June 10, 2012, 01:06 PM
Yikes! Those ARs!! Those Glocks!!!!

None of that is very comforting for anyone -- there's too many guns. Revolvers, autos, rifles, bolt & lever action.

intercooler
June 10, 2012, 01:13 PM
Someone pointed out no Hi-Points though.

Loosedhorse
June 10, 2012, 01:14 PM
That most of those photos are fakes, as I have it on good internet authority that only Glocks go kaboom.

MrDig
June 10, 2012, 01:23 PM
Wow, all I can say is Wow. Nearly every "Venerated" brand of firearm was represented.

intercooler
June 10, 2012, 01:32 PM
These Hatch with Kevlar look to be the ticket.

http://www.amazon.com/Hatch-Street-Guard-Glove-Kevlar/dp/B000F5X8BI/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1339345731&sr=1-3&keywords=hatch+shooting+gloves

kb58
June 10, 2012, 01:37 PM
A surprising amount of AR15 "grenadage" though I guess it's just due to how many are in use.

Out of all the incidents, I wonder how many were due to incorrect reloads.

brickeyee
June 10, 2012, 01:38 PM
Part of why I don't reload.

Going on 50 years of reloading (some for antiques that have NO ammunition source or even brass available) and have never blown anything up.

It is called being careful.

If you dump enough black powder in a muzzle loader you can blow them up.

Wanderling
June 10, 2012, 01:46 PM
I do ears and eyes but nothing on the hands. I think I will search out the best shooting gloves just in case.

I don't understand the Walther issues since those aren't reloads but the others have much been attributed to reloads. Squibs, double-charges, etc... Part of why I don't reload.

These should work.

http://www.medieval-chain-mail-armor.com/images/GAU-GN008_small.JPG

Anything else isn't going to stand up well to flying shards of metal.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 10, 2012, 01:52 PM
I saw a few of those that I knew was from blatant stupidity. One of those Glocks was shot in the back of the slide. Wouldn't surprise me if that was one of those idiots "torture testing" for Youtube views and was shooting it.

I loved the AK Kaboom. From what I saw in the picture, the only thing wrong with it after the Kaboom was the broken casing stuck in there.


I don't understand the Walther issues since those aren't reloads but the others have much been attributed to reloads. Squibs, double-charges, etc... Part of why I don't reload.

Walther's are pretty crappy guns. The slide breaking isn't uncommon.

intercooler
June 10, 2012, 02:14 PM
Your odds of failure go up as you reload. We had a guy at the Range about two weeks back that had a squib and he almost put another on top of it. If it weren't for the alert Range Officer he would have had a Kaboom. 35 years of doing it he said.

intercooler
June 10, 2012, 02:15 PM
Kevlar will keep you from getting the cust and stuff.

MachIVshooter
June 10, 2012, 02:16 PM
Part of why I don't reload

Going on 50 years of reloading (some for antiques that have NO ammunition source or even brass available) and have never blown anything up.

It is called being careful.

^^^^^^^

This.

I've been handloading for 14 years (I'm 30), have never had an overcharge or squib. That is one of the reasons I like using a single stage; After charging, all of my cases are arranged neatly and very are easy to inspect. Looking over the tops of even 1,000 at a time, it is very easy to spot a case that is under/over charged.

As well, only one powder out at a time, double and triple check charge weights (I throw 3 times on the scale after dialing in the measure, and once every 100 rounds or so during charging), and if there's unknown powder left in the measure, it becomes fertlizer.

I suspect the extreme majority of those pics were the result of squibs or overpressure loads, both of which are virtually 100% avoidable.

Walkalong
June 10, 2012, 02:30 PM
What amazes me is the amount of pressure some of those generated.

But then, a triple charge of fast powder in a pistol case, or a rifle case full of pistol powder, are nothing less than grenades.

It is called being careful. Yes, and maintaining your weapon.

tarosean
June 10, 2012, 02:31 PM
I saw a few of those that I knew was from blatant stupidity. One of those Glocks was shot in the back of the slide. Wouldn't surprise me if that was one of those idiots "torture testing" for Youtube views and was shooting it.


I was scratching my head at first with that one...


Those p22's must Have slides made of tin cans...

kb58
June 10, 2012, 02:35 PM
MachIVshooter, I agree with everything you said, but reloading is something of an exception in today's nanny culture. That is, you do have to be careful, and you do have to concentrate, and you do have to doublecheck everything. We simply aren't conditioned to do that anymore and instead expect seatbelts, airbags, welfare, insurance, and social security to handle all the responsibilites in our lives so we don't have to worry, about any activity. To see the consequence of screwing up, it scares people (used to a Disney sort of world where everything is wonderful) that such a concept of responsibility is required. The phrase seems to be summed up as, "I won't do reloading because I have to pay attention and take responsibility for my own actions. Who will I blame if things go wrong?"

We've all become soft.

heron
June 10, 2012, 02:49 PM
Yikes! I'm surprised there isn't more blood spatter in those photos.

Some important lessons there.

JEB
June 10, 2012, 03:08 PM
looks like most all of those should have been easily prevented. really goes to show you what can happen if you stop paying attention...

303tom
June 10, 2012, 03:23 PM
I did`nt see but just a handfull of OLD firearms in that bunch that has come unglued, what does that say...............

EddieNFL
June 10, 2012, 03:23 PM
Part of why I don't reload.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

wally
June 10, 2012, 03:57 PM
Some of the photos looked like garden variety parts brakage -- the P22 fractured slides, the M&P cracked frame, the 1911 fractured slide, along with a couple of guns that had been shot -- the Glock with the bullet in the rear of the slide, the S&W revolver with a chip out of the front of the cylinder.

Amazing to see more Ka-Boomed ARs than Glocks :)

The-Reaver
June 10, 2012, 03:59 PM
I don't recall seeing a single AK =)

animator
June 10, 2012, 04:06 PM
I don't recall seeing a single AK =)
There's one. Stuck shell in the chamber and action partially open. Doesn't look like anything was damaged though...

mr.trooper
June 10, 2012, 04:46 PM
"Much Pictured P22"

You mean the two that were pictured twice? Even if you count that as 4, Glocks, AR15's and 1911's are all represented more times than that.

tarosean
June 10, 2012, 05:00 PM
I'm quite certain no overcharged shell did that to the Beretta 92...

Blowtorch or bomb maybe..?

tarosean
June 10, 2012, 05:06 PM
This is where all those "budget" build AR's end up... ;)


(yes I saw the colts, just a joke. untwist yer panties)

Stevie-Ray
June 10, 2012, 05:25 PM
Very humbling to say the least. Makes me think about the fact that I screw up occasionally when I shoot my GSG-5. Many snaps instead of cracks and the weak round has always gone out the muzzle, though the action won't cycle. There has been a couple times when I have simply cycled by hand and continued firing, only to THEN stop, take a deep breath, put the gun down and ask myself what the hell I just did. I am supposed to check to make sure the barrel is empty-idiot! I am supremely lucky that I have had no squibs still in the barrel. But luck is no answer to complacency. And probably most of those pics are .22s! Haven't done that lately and the pics are a great reminder for my next outing.

On the centerfire side I was surprised to see a Browning A5 and a AMT Govt, model. Thought I was the only one that ever owned a AMT Govt. Totally unreliable, but built like a tank. I also reload, but have never had a bad round, but then, I am extremely anal about my reloads. I have had a few bad factory rounds though, so I trust my own reloads more.

harrygunner
June 10, 2012, 06:56 PM
I didn't want to see the words 'intercooler' and 'Kaboom' in a title. :D Glad they didn't involve you. Take care out there.

basicblur
June 10, 2012, 07:26 PM
I don't understand the Walther issues since those aren't reloads...
Just blew through the pix, but are not all of the Walther P22 pix with the weight compensator?

I bought a P22-ain't happy 'bout the slide material, but when doing research before buying, it seemed there was a (heavily reported?) problem with the slide contacting the weight during cycling, causing the slides to break. If memory serves, I think 'bout all the reports of slide failure I was seeing reported were from guns with the weight compensator installed?

Didn't worry 'bout it too much since I got just the plain old P22 without anything hanging off the front end.

flyskater
June 10, 2012, 08:49 PM
I had a factory ammo that went kaboom. (magtech) Buying factory ammo doesn't guarantee anything.

Deltaboy
June 10, 2012, 09:23 PM
Well I saw NO Ruger MK series but I did see the P-22 Walters. What is going on NO well made 22 LR pistol or revolver should go Ka-boom even with a blocked barrel. :fire::banghead:

MErl
June 10, 2012, 09:28 PM
anyone know what this one is? 19th pic down, the bullpup. looks like some strange ar lower
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/crazymomabird/Kaboom/6f88.jpg

Elkins45
June 10, 2012, 11:10 PM
Fascinating pix. Two things really caught my eye. One of them was that one of the Glocks was sporting an aftermarket barrel--wonder if that was for shooting lead? Doesn't look like it helped.

The other thing I noticed is that it looks like some of the revolvers had sympathetic detonations in rounds adjacent to the one on top, or some other phenomenon that caused the brass in those charging holes to rupture.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 11, 2012, 01:17 AM
anyone know what this one is? 19th pic down, the bullpup. looks like some strange ar lower

Bushmaster M17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_M17S

gunnutery
June 11, 2012, 02:04 AM
Wow, just wow... I'm only halfway through the first page.

blarby
June 11, 2012, 02:30 AM
"Handloading.....................not in and of itself dangerous.....................very unforgiving of mistakes. "

Of the 90% he attributes to handloads, I wonder how many were :

A. Newbies with a progressive, undoubtedly recommended as absolutely mandatory and essential within their first hour on a reloading thread.

B. Someone who doesn't weigh individual charges or Inspect charged cases before seating.

C. Pistol powder in a rifle case.

D. No powder in a pistol case, followed by an otherwise normal shot.


We aren't always talking snot when we bring this stuff up, folks.

RBid
June 11, 2012, 02:42 AM
"Walther's are pretty crappy guns. The slide breaking isn't uncommon." - FIVETWOSEVEN

Hardly, sir.

Lots of P22s in there, with zero other Walthers represented. P22s are known to have had issues. The rest of the Walthers are well known for reliability. I have heard of guys having over 40,000 rounds through PPQs, since 2011, without so much as a spring replacement.

Zone15
June 11, 2012, 06:48 AM
I had a squib from a box of Federal Champion 9mm, luckily I checked the barrel before firing again. Just shows you that you can have a squib even if you don't reload.

Lex Luthier
June 11, 2012, 08:27 AM
Hoping the hands those weapons exploded in ended up okay.

Nushif
June 11, 2012, 08:38 AM
Not all of those were Kabooms, I'm pretty sure.
Nifty pics though. Always wondered if "bulletproof" parts are actually bulletproof.

[edit]
My fav pic for sure is the one with the stacked squibs in it. I think I counted eight?
And it looks like they still had to cut the barrel open to show the squibs.

ol' scratch
June 11, 2012, 10:14 AM
Many of these look like squibs. I reload and use a progressive press. I do use a powder cop to check for over or undercharges. It works well particularly for my rifle cases.

ol' scratch
June 11, 2012, 10:23 AM
MachIVshooter, I agree with everything you said, but reloading is something of an exception in today's nanny culture. That is, you do have to be careful, and you do have to concentrate, and you do have to doublecheck everything. We simply aren't conditioned to do that anymore and instead expect seatbelts, airbags, welfare, insurance, and social security to handle all the responsibilites in our lives so we don't have to worry, about any activity. To see the consequence of screwing up, it scares people (used to a Disney sort of world where everything is wonderful) that such a concept of responsibility is required. The phrase seems to be summed up as, "I won't do reloading because I have to pay attention and take responsibility for my own actions. Who will I blame if things go wrong?"

We've all become soft.
A little bit of a stretch don't you think? People don't want to reload so it is a problem with society? Reloading mishaps have always happened, we just see "more" because we have the net. People make mistakes. Some people are just downright stupid. Both conditions extend to more than reloading. It has and always will be that way.

huntsman
June 11, 2012, 10:51 AM
What I took away from all of this is that plastic and aluminum held up pretty well. ;)

CoRoMo
June 11, 2012, 11:23 AM
Those baffle strikes make me cry!

roadchoad
June 11, 2012, 11:27 AM
How exactly do you get that many bullets crammed into one barrel!? :eek:

Snowdog
June 11, 2012, 12:55 PM
Glocks was sporting an aftermarket barrel--wonder if that was for shooting lead? Doesn't look like it helped.
If it indicates the use of lead bullets, then it also indicates reloads... reloads that were defective. I especially liked the photo of the trapdoor Glock look.

I'm going to pass on the shooting gloves just as I pass on wearing a helmet when in I driving my car. These catastrophic KBs might happen just as a head-on collision with someone driving left of center could, but it's quite unlikely.

Before anyone says they've experienced such KBs, I'll point out I know a few folks who have been involved in horrific head-on collisions. Again, it's unlikely and I'll pass on the helmet (and the gloves).

Thanks for that link. It was indeed sobering.

ny32182
June 11, 2012, 01:49 PM
Factories can and do make bad ammo too. With handloads you have better control over the QC. With factory ammo, you just have to trust the factory.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 11, 2012, 01:55 PM
The one that really scared me is the Barrett. With 230-245gr of powder, somebody had a bad day.

ForumSurfer
June 11, 2012, 02:05 PM
anyone know what this one is? 19th pic down, the bullpup. looks like some strange ar lower
Bushmaster M17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_M17S

That one had to have a major pucker factor...

Owen Sparks
June 11, 2012, 02:19 PM
Yikes!

I wish I knew the story behind the pictures.

Someone mentioned all the Glocks and AR's that blew up.
You could say the same thing about Fords and Chevies being involved in so many wrecks. You do not see many Volvos and Sabbs in wrecks simply because you do not see very many Volvos and Sabbs. Glocks and AR's are NOT more prone to blow up than anything else but you see more Glock and AR KB's simply because there are so many of them.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 11, 2012, 03:56 PM
Hardly, sir.

Lots of P22s in there, with zero other Walthers represented. P22s are known to have had issues. The rest of the Walthers are well known for reliability. I have heard of guys having over 40,000 rounds through PPQs, since 2011, without so much as a spring replacement.

Meant to specify and say that the P22 is crappy. Real Walthers are good guns. Sorry about that.

Arkansas Paul
June 11, 2012, 04:48 PM
Squibs, double-charges, etc... Part of why I don't reload.


Hmm. That's precisely why I DO reload. That way I know for sure what I'm pulling the trigger on. Ammunition manufacturing companies like Remington, Winchester and Federal don't hand inspect every single round. I do.

1KPerDay
June 11, 2012, 04:50 PM
Here's one I personally witnessed: squib followed by a slug. Wolf ammo, Mossberg 930 SPX. Nobody hurt, luckily. Apparently Wolf paid for repairs.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/e01399b6.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/3840344f.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/a5355125.jpg

Mac Attack
June 11, 2012, 04:52 PM
Looking at those pictures is enough to make a person stop shooting. I wonder how many of those can be due to poor reloads.

ny32182
June 11, 2012, 04:59 PM
I'd venture to say on those AR15s, you couldn't stuff in enough of a correct rifle powder to cause that much damage. When these pictures come with a story, it is always that either the bore was obstructed by a squib or something else, or they didn't notice there was still some pistol powder in the measure and they loaded it up with 23gr of Titegroup or whatever. Kaboom.

I've seen a lot of pictures of wrecked cars too, and it doesn't make me stop driving. There are millions and millions of guns that didn't blow up today, and cars that weren't wrecked today. An out of context picture of a blown up gun on the internet means nothing.

x_wrench
June 11, 2012, 07:57 PM
i noticed that all of the Walther P22's have a silencer, or threaded adapter on the end of the barrel. that makes me wonder if there is maybe a clearance problem, or if the adapter is heat soaking, and expanding, causing seizure on the slide. and that seizing, is causing the slide to crack. i understand that it is not a high quality steel slide. but if the problem is with aftermarket parts, there should be instructions with them to open the slide up slightly. i can see where adding anything to the end of the barrel, would cause more heat to stay in the gun.

Nushif
June 11, 2012, 08:15 PM
Or it's the same gun ...

SpentCasing
June 11, 2012, 09:09 PM
The supressors on those P22s are fake. They come from the factory like that.

SilentStalker
June 13, 2012, 02:36 PM
Now when you guys refer to some of these as a lack of maintenance on the weapon I must ask what you mean specifically? Besides, cleaning and lubing what kind of maintenance would one need to do to keep something like this from happening? I mean I could see changing out recoil springs and things like that but there really isn't much to most firearms so what specifically should one do or be looking for here.

As far as squibs go, I have often wondered how people with fully autos would ever detect a squib before it is too late. I mean at least on semi auto you could count and should be able to see the casing fly off but on a fully auto that would be dang near impossible.

Orion8472
June 13, 2012, 03:52 PM
Would a squib load have enough power to eject the shell? I wouldn't think so, . . . . but I could be wrong.

Stevie-Ray
June 14, 2012, 01:58 AM
Some squibs have been strong enough to complete the action, but they're rare. All my underpowered rounds have exited the barrel, yet NOT cycled the action. They have all been .22s, though. I've always thought autos a bit safer than revolvers in this respect.

WardenWolf
June 14, 2012, 03:36 AM
Here's one I personally witnessed: squib followed by a slug. Wolf ammo, Mossberg 930 SPX. Nobody hurt, luckily. Apparently Wolf paid for repairs.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/e01399b6.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/3840344f.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/1KPerDay/Guns/a5355125.jpg

How the heck do you squib on a smoothbore? You'd think it'd at least roll out the barrel.

Would a squib load have enough power to eject the shell? I wouldn't think so, . . . . but I could be wrong.

This depends on the type of action and where the squib jams. On a recoil-operated gun, the back pressure from the gas may be sufficient to still operate the action, though probably not. On a gas-operated gun, IF the squib jams forward of the gas port, the trapped gas pressure will all vent through the gas port and will probably cycle the action fully. I have seen a video where an AK got squibbed like this. If you watch it in slow motion, it's pretty obvious what happened. One round squibbed just forward of the gas port but still cycled the action. Second round fired, and the air trapped between the second bullet and the squib opened the action prematurely, resulting in a massive gas vent from the breech.

mstreddy
June 14, 2012, 10:49 AM
X Wrench:
i noticed that all of the Walther P22's have a silencer, or threaded adapter on the end of the barrel. that makes me wonder if there is maybe a clearance problem, or if the adapter is heat soaking, and expanding, causing seizure on the slide. and that seizing, is causing the slide to crack. i understand that it is not a high quality steel slide. but if the problem is with aftermarket parts, there should be instructions with them to open the slide up slightly. i can see where adding anything to the end of the barrel, would cause more heat to stay in the gun.

I have a Walther P22 that normally has a silencer/suppressor (real, not fake) attached to it. I have to calculate it, but I'm pretty sure it has seen more than 12-15K rounds through it. I did have one failure with it about two weeks ago. The hammer spring snapped. Apparently, according to their CS that is the more common failed part. Less than a week later, I received the replacement and it's back in play. The slide is "light" but so far no issues other than a wear spot at the slide lock notch area.

As to factory ammo versus reloads. I too have had several failures in factory ammo from big name companies. Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc. Have had apparently low and high charges in 9, 45, missing primers in 223, discolored, stained, and scratched cases in 9, 40, 45. No powder, etc... Had a Win 9mm kboom in an Uzi carbine, buckled the top cover, but otherwise ok. Had some factory 9mm kboom in Beretta 92 bending the extractor and action transfer bar (don't know correct name for it).
Have had "commercial" reloads from Ultramax that were likely on the overcharge scale and possibly bad brass. Blew out the case web area on 3 cartridges resulting in some stinging of my hand and near Kbooms in Glocks and Beretta. I just finished pulling all the remaining rounds and will post up some details on my weighing of the charges.
To date, my own reloads have had zero failures.
As to all the pics, without the accompanying side story, I won't make any assumptions.

/Eddy

Stump Water
June 14, 2012, 11:26 AM
Reloading mishaps have always happened, we just see "more" because we have the net. People make mistakes. Some people are just downright stupid. Both conditions extend to more than reloading. It has and always will be that way.

Exactly.

And to the "why I don't reload" crowd... I've been reloading for 25 years and have had exactly two rounds that didn't go bang (backwards primers). Whereas I long ago lost count of factory ammo malfunctions.

Stump Water
June 14, 2012, 11:41 AM
How the heck do you squib on a smoothbore? You'd think it'd at least roll out the barrel.

Wad = barrel obstruction.

One would "think" the next round would just push the wad out, but physics dosen't think.

jcooper9099
June 14, 2012, 03:32 PM
Wow I was noticing some strange wear on my Taurus PT 145 Pro slide and thought I would look up "kabooms". I was surprised to see so many respected name brands with horrible failures. I guess it's true that "Every manufacturer experiences some breakage"

ClickClickD'oh
June 14, 2012, 03:50 PM
The case stuck in the KB'd FN 5.7 has absolutely no shoulder on it... I don't even want to know how they pulled that off.

ralphie98
June 14, 2012, 09:20 PM
Would a squib load have enough power to eject the shell? I wouldn't think so, . . . . but I could be wrong.
I've managed to make a squib in my Glock 34 and it did cycle but the next round ran into the squib causing a failure to feed. Its a good thing too because I honestly didn't notice a difference in the recoil probably because the slide cycled.

JonathanE
June 15, 2012, 12:02 AM
I saw several ruptured AR polymer mags. How did those happen? What malfunction causes a mag to rupture?

WardenWolf
June 15, 2012, 12:34 AM
Wad = barrel obstruction.

One would "think" the next round would just push the wad out, but physics dosen't think.
I still think it'd have to be a pretty weak gun for that to cause problems. I mean, really?

I saw several ruptured AR polymer mags. How did those happen? What malfunction causes a mag to rupture?

An overpressure scenario on an AR-15 vents out the magwell primarily. It could be as simple as a case head failure or as severe as a squib. Regardless, the result is usually the same: a blown up magazine.

Orion8472
June 15, 2012, 10:55 AM
This thread is the reason why I really don't like doing "quick shooting", but more precision shooting. IF your squib cycled the slide, with bullet lodged half way down the barrel, stripping off the next round into the chamber, you'd have a bad day.

I know that it is a rare occurance. Would I NEVER do rapid fire? I honestly don't know. Most places I go to shoot require 2-3 seconds between shots, so "rapid fire" isn't allowed. Would I, on someone's land? Maybe a few rounds, but that's about it. . . . . . and probably with a .22lr . . . mostly due to the actual COST of rounds.

1KPerDay
June 15, 2012, 02:15 PM
One would "think" the next round would just push the wad out, but physics dosen't think.
I still think it'd have to be a pretty weak gun for that to cause problems. I mean, really?
It wasn't a wad. It was two slugs. One squib, slug stuck in barrel. Shooter quickly ejected "misfire" and loaded another slug behind it, boom. Nobody heard the primer go off, and several were wearing electronic muffs.

Ryanxia
June 15, 2012, 03:07 PM
Those are pretty neat, I wonder how he bent the barrel.

Elkins45
June 15, 2012, 04:32 PM
It wasn't a wad. It was two slugs. One squib, slug stuck in barrel. Shooter quickly ejected "misfire" and loaded another slug behind it, boom. Nobody heard the primer go off, and several were wearing electronic muffs.
I'll bet they heard the SECOND one go off!

PT92
June 15, 2012, 09:52 PM
Wait a minute! I thought the 'Omnipotent' Internet 'Fiefdom' had categorically/empirically concluded that only the cheap stuff blew up (Rossi, Hi Point, EAA, Tauri etc...?). What in the world gives...? Is nothing sacred :eek:.

-Cheers

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