Best Self Defense 1911?


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BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 01:17 PM
Ok boys, this is the big one! I officially have the 1911 bug. Almost 2 years ago I had a problematic Springfield 1911 and swore off them for good, but I can't resist!

I'd love a full size 1911 that can serve as a HD pistol and possibly CCW. My main requirements are absolute reliability and durability. I don't mind if it rattles as long as its well built to work and last a lifetime.

I've heard that new Colts aren't any good, and their machinery is worn out and outdated. Is that true? And I don't really want another Springfield. I want something American with a forged frame that's built for total reliability, not a target gun that's water tight. I don't need a bunch of frills and whistles either, I'll replace what I want after 2k rounds or so.

My budget? I guess about $1500-2k

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jawn
June 10, 2012, 01:23 PM
All of the recent Colts I've seen have been legit, but they aren't exactly the prettiest guns.

In your budget, I'd look at Dan Wessons or if you don't mind deviating a bit from the classic 1911 design, the Smith & Wesson E-series guns.

readyeddy
June 10, 2012, 01:29 PM
Sounds like my Norinco except for the part about made in America. It's absolutely reliable, has a forged frame, no bells or whistles and shoots 3 inch groups at 25 yards.

rcmodel
June 10, 2012, 01:33 PM
Nothing wrong with Colt's.

They have replaced the worn out tooling with new CNC milling centers and are making fine guns.

For that matter, I'm surprised you had such trouble with a Springfield.
All the ones I have messed with were pretty nice guns.

And I'm even more surprized Springfield didn't make it work if you contacted them.
Did you try that?

rc

BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 01:43 PM
Nothing wrong with Colt's.

They have replaced the worn out tooling with new CNC milling centers and are making fine guns.

For that matter, I'm surprised you had such trouble with a Springfield.
All the ones I have messed with were pretty nice guns.

And I'm even more surprized Springfield didn't make it work if you contacted them.
Did you try that?

rc



They did readjust the extractor, which was supposedly the culprit. They have good customer service, but at that point I was so displeased with the weapon that I sold it.

BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 02:45 PM
Come on boys!

hank327
June 10, 2012, 03:14 PM
A 5" Colt. I've had several since 1982 and never had a bad one. My Commanders have been great too. I would and have bet my life on them.

JEB
June 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
for a self defense 1911 i wouldnt be looking at the $2000 guns. at that price, you are getting up into some pretty custom stuff. for that price bracket of 1911's, the only experience i have had was with les baer and his stuff is top notch; i would not hesitate to bet on one of his guns. for me though, i would be much happier (for a defensive gun) with a kimber or a smith and wesson.

9mmepiphany
June 10, 2012, 03:54 PM
I'd love a full size 1911 that can serve as a HD pistol and possibly CCW. My main requirements are absolute reliability and durability. I don't mind if it rattles as long as its well built to work and last a lifetime.

My budget? I guess about $1500-2k
If the Springfield Profressional is out of the running...base on price and your desires. I'd look seriously at a Dan Wesson Valor or a Performance Center 1911

They would both be a good basic gun ideal for later tweaking. You price range is very reasonable when looking for a good hard duty gun without serious flaws.

918v
June 10, 2012, 04:09 PM
I hear a TRP calling out to you.

jmr40
June 10, 2012, 04:45 PM
The S&W 1911's are the best for the money I've found. My one and only Kimber has never given me a moments problem, but after buying the S&W it has not been out of the safe much. I've owned almost all of the mid-priced guns such as Colt and SA with mixed results.

Unless you want to get into the $2,500- $3,000 semi custom guns I don't think you will beat one of the Smiths. You can probably buy 2 with your budget if you shop carefully.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 10, 2012, 04:50 PM
Try to get a Combat Commander!

BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 04:51 PM
I do like those new Colt 70 Series, if new Colts are any good.

9mmepiphany
June 10, 2012, 05:01 PM
I do like those new Colt 70 Series, if new Colts are any good.
There is nothing horrible about Colts, but they aren't a nice as the Dan Wesson or the Performance Center S&W. I'd also add the STI Trojan as a great value in your price range, if you don't mind adjustable sights

S&W620
June 10, 2012, 05:02 PM
In your price range I'd look at Dan Wesson and Les Baer.

mavracer
June 10, 2012, 05:02 PM
I may not be the right person to ask as I really never have problems getting my 1911s to run, heck I've even got a Para hi-cap that runs like a scalded dog. For a SD gun I like my Colts very well they run very close to JMBs original specs. My 1911a1 armed forces and my LW XSE feed anything even empty cases.

YJake
June 10, 2012, 05:09 PM
My S&W1911PD has been flawless after 600+ rounds of UMC, TulAmmo, WWB, Hornady XTPs, and Federal Champion ammunition.

I did some minor polishing and added a Wilson spring kit, it runs fantastic.

S&W 1911 guns are certainly the best kept secret in American made 1911s.

-Jake

tarosean
June 10, 2012, 05:13 PM
Best and budget go hand in hand?

Try Chuck Rogers or Stan Chen if you really want the best..

BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 05:13 PM
"My S&W1911PD has been flawless after 600+ rounds of UMC, TulAmmo, WWB, Hornady XTPs, and Federal Champion ammunition.

I did some minor polishing and added a Wilson spring kit, it runs fantastic."


Was it not running right out of the box?

rellascout
June 10, 2012, 05:13 PM
Get yourself a 70 Series Colt like this. Shoot your 2,000 rounds and then determine what you want to change about it. Send it to a professional smith to make those changes. This way you can get a pistol that is built exactly the way you want it to be built. No compromises. You can get a 70 series for about $900 and still have $1100 + to get is customized.

If you are looking for something out of the box I would look at a Dan Wesson or a Custom Carry Les Baer.

YJake
June 10, 2012, 05:36 PM
Was it not running right out of the box?

It ran perfect out of the box.

I did a few things for purely personal reasons.

-Jake

BluedRevolver
June 10, 2012, 07:36 PM
Well this is confusing! So many darn choices! To be honest though I don't like those S&W 1911's. I don't care for external extractors.

1858
June 10, 2012, 07:51 PM
Best Self Defense 1911?

The one that works!! I'm not trying to be facetious but you can find examples of $500 1911s that are 100% reliable and $2,500 1911s that are finicky. My $2,300 Ed Brown Special Forces Carry has been problematic until recently and yet my $1,200 Kimber Tactical Entry II worked fine with every factory load I tried and only had issues with a specific lead semi-wadcutter bullet from Western Nevada.

I put about $600 of parts into the Kimber and ended up with a pistol that works 100% with every type of ammunition that I've tried in it over the last two years including that 185gr LSWC from WN. I improved the durability as well by choosing quality aftermarket parts. I've shot numerous 150+ round matches with the Kimber without any issues and I would grab the Kimber before I grabbed my Ed Brown Special Forces Carry ... sad but true. The slide to frame fit is the least tight of all my 1911s but the barrel (Ed Brown) locks up tight and it's very accurate. I also have two Dan Wessons, a Valor and V-Bob, but would grab either my Ed Brown Special Forces or Special Forces Light Rail before either of the DWs. My 5" Ed Browns have been perfect with a wide variety of ammunition but the Valor has been problematic and the rear sight fell off the V-Bob. Of my seven 1911s that include a Kimber Tactical Entry II, Kimber Stainless Pro Raptor II, Dan Wesson Valor, Dan Wesson V-Bob, Ed Brown Special Forces Carry, Ed Brown Special Forces and Ed Brown Special Forces Light Rail, the only ones that I would consider to be 100% in terms of function are the Kimber and both 5" Ed Brown pistols. I'm working on issues with the others. I think the Ed Brown Special Forces Carry is on the verge of being resolved after sending it back to Ed Brown. They recut the chamber and I replaced the extractor and now it seems to be running very well. If only Ed Brown finished their pistols using a salt nitride process like Dan Wesson rather than a CERAKOTE type finish.

jimniowa
June 10, 2012, 08:06 PM
I bought a Colt series 70 close to 40 years ago, had a local smith trick it out and I would put up to any of the custom makers today, however the price would be equal in todays market. I now own a Kimber ULTRA CARRY ll a 3'' barrell .45acp and I also recommend this as a SD defense gun, Its what I carry. The 1911 is a awsome self defense gun, its your life or loved ones, your choice.
Jim

fireman 9731
June 10, 2012, 08:16 PM
Check out Sig Sauer. They make really nice stuff. I am in love with my Sig p238(mini 380 1911) I don't have a Sig 1911 yet, but plan to in the future.

wally
June 10, 2012, 08:33 PM
After 15000+ rounds through my RIA I'd have no problem carrying it if I could somehow actually conceal it, or open carry passed.

KCAce
June 10, 2012, 08:51 PM
I love 1911's and have several. For concealed carry I like the smaller Sig C3. I got mine new a couple years ago for about $1100, and like it as much or more than my kimbers and dan wesson (which are also great shooters). Lots of great choices offered...I don't think you can go wrong with what's been suggested. Good luck,

KCAce

MICHAEL T
June 10, 2012, 08:52 PM
A new Colt Commander will for SD work as well as any high dollor Bauer , Wesson , Brown or Wilson. You need a relieable pistol, good trigger, and sights . The Colt out of box will shoot accurate enough . Most owners will never be able to use the accuracy of the colt. Let alone a 2000+ pistol
KISS is always best answer. Buy Colt and spend rest on gear and ammo for practice.

Dirt Diver
June 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
+1 this ^^^.

My 1/50th of a dollar:

I think with using a 1911 as an everyday carry, KISS is the best principle. A pistol so rattly that it practically field strips itself if you shake it long enough will eat virtually anything you feed it under almost any condition of cleanliness. A pistol that is set up so tight that you can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards will proove finicky about ammo, springs, etc before the rattle trap will.

Not implying by any means imaginable that the Colt is a rattletrap, but the closer you stay to the way JB designed it, the more reliable it will be, IMHO.

Another option may be a Ruger SR1911, IF you can get your hands on one. Let the hoopla die down a bit and see if you can get one at a decent price. American made, and so far, mine seems to be a decent compromise between reliability and accuracy.

jmr40
June 10, 2012, 09:49 PM
I don't like those S&W 1911's. I don't care for external extractors.

Do you want a gun to look at or use. The external extractor is not true to traditionalist, but is actually an improvement to the design. Lots of modern 1911's do not have traditional features. Flat mainspring housings, oversize beaver tail grip safeties, ambi safeties, FLGR's, 8 round mags, useable sights, oversize safey levers, and long triggers are all accepted, but an external safety is not traditional enough. Yet it probably does more to improve the original design than any of the more acceptable changes.

Done right the internal extractor works fine, but is the biggest problem area with a 1911. While not traditional, the external extractor works better.

foghornl
June 10, 2012, 09:57 PM
I have 2 1911's...a Springfield Champion 4" barrel with the night sights, and the GI-45 with the 5" barrel and itty-bitty sights.

I prefer the GI-45. It just fits me better. There is "Something" about how the original sized 1911 feels in hand.

Your Mileage Will Vary

OregonJohnny
June 11, 2012, 02:18 PM
Do you want a gun to look at or use. The external extractor is not true to traditionalist, but is actually an improvement to the design. Lots of modern 1911's do not have traditional features. Flat mainspring housings, oversize beaver tail grip safeties, ambi safeties, FLGR's, 8 round mags, useable sights, oversize safey levers, and long triggers are all accepted, but an external safety is not traditional enough. Yet it probably does more to improve the original design than any of the more acceptable changes.

Done right the internal extractor works fine, but is the biggest problem area with a 1911. While not traditional, the external extractor works better.

Very well said. I think there is a huge group of 1911 fans out there that won't even give the S&W or Sig Sauer 1911s a second look because of the "non-traditional" external extractors. My full size S&W 1911 Stainless may not look like a WWII era gun, but it's been incredibly reliable, it's more accurate than I am, and it's just tight enough to feel like a very high-quality piece of American steel.

S&W 1911 guns are certainly the best kept secret in American made 1911s.

That pretty much sums up what I feel, also.

vba
June 11, 2012, 03:21 PM
I have many 1911's but my main carry is an Old Roll Mark (ORM) Colt 1991A1. It is flat out reliable and is carried often.

I've also got a New Roll Mark (NRM) 1991A1 and it is a very nice pistol as well. If Colt is still making the NRM's that's what I would pick.

Skylerbone
June 11, 2012, 07:26 PM
You're getting the gamut of great to wretched advice so far. Not to exclude other posters but 9mmepiphany and rcmodel both posted square with the facts advice.

If I had to choose one in your price range to pick up, put 300 rounds down range with and holster for EDC I'd buy a Les Baer period. As for cheap rattle traps, well every Yugo driven away from a dealership was not proof-positive that what runs day one will run in the long run.

LeonCarr
June 11, 2012, 07:28 PM
STI Spartan if you must have a 1911.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

HorseSoldier
June 11, 2012, 07:40 PM
With a max price of $2K, I'd look around and see what you can find on the used side -- you may luck out and find something in the Wilson/Ed Brown/Les Baer price range used/consigned market.

Beyond that, I was quite a fan of my Dan Wesson CBOB for a carry pistol before it got sold towards a higher end 1911. I believe the CBOB is out of production now, but they do an another bob-tailed model in its place. I'd give that a look, if you can find one in your area.

gym
June 12, 2012, 10:01 PM
Every gun is an individual piece of machinery. To recommend something as being the end all 1911, would be a mistake, as you may get one that dosen't perform as well as mine. Usually in these situations you go with the name brand. Springfield, Colt, Wilson etc. You might like a defender or an agent, but none is better, the word is subjective, and who is anyone to say which is really better for you.After 40 years of carrying, the only thing I can say that is always true, is everyone values things differentlly. What sucks for me, is terriffic for someone else, just as perhaps my favorite pistol is someone elses worst nightmare, trial and error, A reliable alternative would be a Glock 30 or 36, I can say with total honestlly, few people have had a bad experience with them, as they are much simpler guns with fewer parts and the ability to fire under adverse conditions, I know you didn't ask for a glock, but if you want a fairlly priced reliable 45, this would suit your needs and I have bet my life on it several times. I haven't had the same experience with a 1911, although it is my favorite weapon to shoot.
Sometimes our favorite is not the best one for the job at hand.

JR24
June 12, 2012, 10:22 PM
I'm in the what works category. I've got a Remmington R1 and a Springfield GI (gee, I guess I like the no-frills style) that have been dead reliable out of the box for a few thousand rounds each. I'd trust either for CCW or home defense. Although my GI has those little, itty, bitty, GI sights that are almost useless in low light.

Shovelhead
June 12, 2012, 10:27 PM
New is nice......BUT :rolleyes:
My used $500 Colt Lightweight Commander goes bang everytime, is acurate, and is comfortable to carry.

stinger 327
June 13, 2012, 05:30 PM
Just curious why is the 1911 so popular and has a following?
I know it's 100 years old by design
It's single action only.
There are more modern designed guns out there like the Sig Sauer P-220 right out of the box that are accurate, quality made.
The P-220 is both double action and single action and you can safely have one in the chamber like a revolver.

Let's say I did want to add a 1911 to my collection how about the Sig Sauer 1911,
Springfield Bi-Tone Light or Rock Island Armory .45 GI gun that costs $400+?
All of these would be full sized models with 5 inch barrels. Which one?

Brockak47
June 13, 2012, 05:47 PM
might be considered troll comment, would you be ok with giving up a 1500-2k 1911 up to the cops if you had to use it. Not knowing when you'll get it back or in what condition.

Baba Louie
June 13, 2012, 05:52 PM
... how about the Sig Sauer 1911, Springfield Bi-Tone Light or Rock Island Armory .45 GI gun that costs $400+?
All of these would be full sized models with 5 inch barrels. Which one?Any one would be a good shooting choice depending upon your wallet. One of the things to look for/at, might be the mfg. companies warranty and customer service track record, just in case you ever need them.

Or perhaps a "Custom Shop" which Springfield has, do not know about SIG (would assume so) or RIA.

One other small factor to ponder when considering a handgun for self defense use... say you use it. Bad guy is down, cops are there, your gun... now becomes evidence. As it is. How soon will you get it back? Dunno. Which is why you always have a spare at home (or can at least use that to justify a second purchase if you feel the need to justify anything to anyone, like a spousal unit)Just curious why is the 1911 so popular and has a following?The consistent trigger pull? Straight back, adjustable to your preference. Also, no real recoil per se, not to mention the history behind it. In .45, .38 Super, 9mm or even 10mm, so you got choices as well.

Wanna trick it out? Sure. Open wallet, easy as pie. I suppose you could do the same with a 220... within limits.

But other than that, maybe it's the whole John Moses Browning designed it thing.

gym
June 13, 2012, 06:24 PM
Got back my customized walther ppks, in 1989, from an incident, "in NY they take all the guns on your license", if there is an investigation. My guns were ruined when returned. That German gun would have been an easy 2 grand now, it cost me over a thousand then with engraving and action and trigger work. The gun was etched with a file or punch of some kind, purposlly, the baretta not so much.The case number was scratched into the slide and frame of the gun. So that is what may happen should you have a problem. And there is no one to take any resposibility. Here in FL, they don't have your serial numbers and make model etc on your license. So you are looking at 1 gun.But the gentleman is correct, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Always better to have a glock, and buy a new slide if that happens for a couple hundred dollars, than a Wilson.

Magoo
June 13, 2012, 06:29 PM
Not really on topic, but since the last two responses brought it up...If you ever have to use your pistol in SD the cost of the pistol you hand over will likely be far down on the list of your financial concerns. Don't buy a cheap personal defense weapon on that flawed logic.

I guess I've been lucky with 1911s and not had any reliability issues except from two bad magazines. Pretty amazing the crap magazines Baer supplies with their guns :confused:. The Baer, a Colt, and a Springfield have each been great for me. And despite what I said above, no I don't carry the Baer. A monolith heavyweight ain't exactly an ideal CCW. The New Agent does that role much more comfortably.

ETA: gym added this while I was posting
"in NY they take all the guns on your license"
:eek::eek:

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2012, 07:52 PM
I've never let the concerns of Problem 2 (surviving the investigation) dictate my decisions in Problem 1 (surviving the encounter). I never gave it much thought when I chose to carry a Colt Python, H&K P7 or SIG 220...that are all in the same price range of any 1911 than I'd carry for SD.

The 1911 I carry more than any other nowadays would cost $4K+ to replace

If you need to use your gun for SD, the least of your worries will be how much the gun cost or how much to replace it. If it is damaged, when it is taken as evidence, you can always file a claim or a law suit...that is why they have insurance. If they don't pay the claim or settle, they will be on the hook for triple the damages when they lose in court

gym
June 14, 2012, 01:06 AM
Not to start a side bar, but in nyc they won't hear the case, it used to be an issue brought up on occasion, but if you want your license and sue the PD, they won't renew it, so you are out of luck.They do this at the bequest of the political machine that runs the city.They actually waited almost a year, to make sure I wasn't ging to sue. After 7 court appearences they agreed. But I still had to go to a captains hearing, you can't win as a gun owner there. ask an old timer who was in the pistol licensing bureau,it's an unspoken rule, get the guns away from all those who did qualify to get a permit, for any reason. Real or manufactured

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 01:19 AM
Any one would be a good shooting choice depending upon your wallet. One of the things to look for/at, might be the mfg. companies warranty and customer service track record, just in case you ever need them.

Or perhaps a "Custom Shop" which Springfield has, do not know about SIG (would assume so) or RIA.

One other small factor to ponder when considering a handgun for self defense use... say you use it. Bad guy is down, cops are there, your gun... now becomes evidence. As it is. How soon will you get it back? Dunno. Which is why you always have a spare at home (or can at least use that to justify a second purchase if you feel the need to justify anything to anyone, like a spousal unit)The consistent trigger pull? Straight back, adjustable to your preference. Also, no real recoil per se, not to mention the history behind it. In .45, .38 Super, 9mm or even 10mm, so you got choices as well.

Wanna trick it out? Sure. Open wallet, easy as pie. I suppose you could do the same with a 220... within limits.

But other than that, maybe it's the whole John Moses Browning designed it thing.
I would say a gun that shoots well right out of the box. No custom work needed. I have heard Para-Ordinance has terrible customer service (Warthog compact .45 ACP). Already have other guns so not worried about what was brought up about police. 1911 is cocked and locked single action only or you must rack it vs. P-220 Sig double action / single action also. Unless of course you get the Sig 1911.

gym
June 14, 2012, 01:54 AM
Para is awfull, even to store owners, they seem to just not care about what they tell people. They built a custom gun for a shop owner who I am friendlly with, 3 month overdue, and he just threw in the towel, the smith rep got him a custom commander size gun with everything he wanted in 3 weeks. They wanted the business, Para could care less.
He shoots compitition and they should have tried to make him happy, not, I won't get another one, and I actually liked my alloy p13, as far as weight and accuracy out of the box. 14 rounds was in comander size.They started out building the hi cap frames for other companys, like 20 or more yrs ago.I remember my uncle getting a frame for a build he made, I had never seen a hi cap 45 at the time.

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 01:58 AM
Does the Sig Sauer P-220 have that safety in the handle like most 1911's if the sig was locked n cocked? or is there only one safety on the side?

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 01:59 AM
Para is awfull, even to store owners, they seem to just not care about what they tell people. They built a custom gun for a shop owner who I am friendlly with, 3 month overdue, and he just threw in the towel, the smith rep got him a custom commander size gun with everything he wanted in 3 weeks. They wanted the business, Para could care less.
He shoots compitition and they should have tried to make him happy, not, I won't get another one, and I actually liked my alloy p13, as far as weight and accuracy out of the box. 14 rounds was in comander size.They started out building the hi cap frames for other companys, like 20 or more yrs ago.I remember my uncle getting a frame for a build he made, I had never seen a hi cap 45 at the time.
I have heard from different people that Para-Ordinance has terrible customer service.

mljdeckard
June 14, 2012, 02:15 AM
I really think you're overthinking it.

There is nothing wrong with Colts. I owned one, it wasn't magical, I didn't run back to get another one, but there is nothing wrong with them.

I'm not a fan of S&W external extractors, but it doesn't mean they don't work.

Sloppy fit doesn't really make something more reliable or durable.

I had a S&W Sigma that was a nightmare. It invented new ways to break and malfunction. If people ask me how Sigmas worked for me, you better believe I will tell them, in as much detail as they can handle. Doesn't mean every one is that terrible. My dad bought a Springfield that was passed down to my brother that is great, just because you had one bad Springfield doesn't mean they all suck.

Auto426
June 14, 2012, 02:41 AM
There's nothing wrong with the new Colts coming out of Hartford today. I'd gladly by more after my experiences with my last two. Both my 1991 and Talo CCO are well built, accurate, and reliable. I like their simple and classic styling and they just plain work for me.

Does the Sig Sauer P-220 have that safety in the handle like most 1911's if the sig was locked n cocked? or is there only one safety on the side?


The safety in the handle is called a grip safety, and no, the Sig 220 does not have one.

Also, a Sig 220 can't be cocked and locked. Traditional Sigs are DA/SA, and have no external safety. Instead, they have a decocker. The safety is the heavy double action trigger pull for the first shot, which transitions to a lighter single action trigger pull for each subsequent shot. When you are done shooting, you use the decocker to decock the gun, restoring the trigger to it's heavy double action pull state.

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 02:54 AM
There's nothing wrong with the new Colts coming out of Hartford today. I'd gladly by more after my experiences with my last two. Both my 1991 and Talo CCO are well built, accurate, and reliable. I like their simple and classic styling and they just plain work for me.



The safety in the handle is called a grip safety, and no, the Sig 220 does not have one.

Also, a Sig 220 can't be cocked and locked. Traditional Sigs are DA/SA, and have no external safety. Instead, they have a decocker. The safety is the heavy double action trigger pull for the first shot, which transitions to a lighter single action trigger pull for each subsequent shot. When you are done shooting, you use the decocker to decock the gun, restoring the trigger to it's heavy double action pull state.
Which system is preferred or better? Or is it a personal thing? I like the idea of double action with one in the chamber like a revolver ready to go.
But cocked n locked would appear to be the faster of the two even though it's an old design and the trigger pull will be consistent unlike the first shot in the Sig P-220 if that really means anything. Does cocked n locked require more training in safety handling?

Auto426
June 14, 2012, 03:39 AM
Which system is preferred or better? Or is it a personal thing? I like the idea of double action with one in the chamber like a revolver ready to go.
But cocked n locked would appear to be the faster of the two even though it's an old design and the trigger pull will be consistent unlike the first shot in the Sig P-220 if that really means anything. Does cocked n locked require more training in safety handling?

For the most part it's personal preference. Some don't like the inconsistent trigger pull of a DA/SA gun, and some don't like having a gun with a manual safety that needs to be disengaged to shoot. They both require training to familiarize yourself with the weapon. With a DA/SA gun you need to train to not throw the first or second shot because of the difference in trigger pulls, while with a SAO gun you need to train to disengage the safety without thinking.

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 03:47 AM
For the most part it's personal preference. Some don't like the inconsistent trigger pull of a DA/SA gun, and some don't like having a gun with a manual safety that needs to be disengaged to shoot. They both require training to familiarize yourself with the weapon. With a DA/SA gun you need to train to not throw the first or second shot because of the difference in trigger pulls, while with a SAO gun you need to train to disengage the safety without thinking.
The only other thing is which gun the Sig 1911 or the Sig P-220 which one would be easier to clean? Most likely the P-220? and the Sig would be more reiable in feeding all type of ammo with out jamming. 1911 is more ammo sensative with ammo

2zulu1
June 14, 2012, 04:12 AM
From 1911.org and quote from Cylinder & Slide;

http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=916112&postcount=16

Direct, tough question from a forum member, post #24;

Quick reply from Colt factory rep post #25, stating some of the positive changes Colt has accomplished during the past three years, including employees.

Compliment to Colt factory rep post #28.

Auto426
June 14, 2012, 04:40 AM
The only other thing is which gun the Sig 1911 or the Sig P-220 which one would be easier to clean? Most likely the P-220? and the Sig would be more reiable in feeding all type of ammo with out jamming. 1911 is more ammo sensative with ammo

The 220 is a little easier to disassemble, but neither of them is any sort of challenge. And as far as ammo sensitivity goes that is something you would have to test. You may end up with a 1911 that feeds anything and a 220 that won't feed hardball. That's why regaress of what gun you buy, you should always test it with the different types of ammo you intend to use in it.

Chose the gun that fits best in your hand with the control setup and trigger system that feels the most comfortable. If either gun happens to have problems, then send it back to Sug and let them fix it. That's what warranties are for.

OregonJohnny
June 14, 2012, 01:38 PM
Keep in mind that the 1911 design is currently being manufactured in hundreds of different configurations by almost every major firearms manufacturer, on multiple continents, and also by at least 2 or 3 dozen custom shops.

The P220 is made by 1 single company - Sig Sauer. So with a 1911, the variation in materials, build quality, fit-and-finish, accuracy, reliability, etc. will be different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Maybe this is one of the reasons that the 1911 (as a design) has earned a reputation as not always reliable out of the box. Whereas the Sig P220 is usually regarded as the most accurate and reliable mass produced .45 semi-auto firearm out of the box.

I own both a 1911 and a 220, and I like them both very much. But they are 2 completely different designs, with different controls, different ergonomics, and their own unique pros and cons. I'd say that every serious .45ACP fan should eventually own both! :)

buckhorn_cortez
June 14, 2012, 04:26 PM
If you want a gun for concealed carry, understand that if you use it, there is a chance you won't get it back. Choose your carry gun with the idea that it's a throw away, and judge how much money you won't be bothered losing. In my case, I decided $900 - $1K was my limit.

So, I bought a SIG RCS for $859. It's not a bad gun, in fact it runs quite well. It's dehorned, has night sights, is lightweight, and fairly small. I'd have no problem throwing it onto ashphalt, into mud, etc. and losing it to the legal system as it is not "special" in any way - and is easily replacable.

I have Dan Wessons, Wilsons, and Baers - all of those guns are special in that they've been tweaked and customized. The idea of throwing one onto asphalt..GAAAAAAH!!!! Losing one to the legal system? OUUUCH!!....I save those for carrying on my ranch property or range use.

Daily? The SIG. I'd throw it away like a piece of week old old pizza and without a second thought.

OregonJohnny
June 14, 2012, 04:45 PM
Also, a Sig 220 can't be cocked and locked.

Actually, Sig does currently make a SAO (single action only) model of the 220 and the 220 Carry. Cocked and locked, single action, just like a 1911. However, the Sig does not have the 1911's grip safety. Also, for anyone familiar with the 1911's slide catch lever, the Sig slide catch lever will take a lot of getting used to.

stinger 327
June 14, 2012, 08:02 PM
Keep in mind that the 1911 design is currently being manufactured in hundreds of different configurations by almost every major firearms manufacturer, on multiple continents, and also by at least 2 or 3 dozen custom shops.

The P220 is made by 1 single company - Sig Sauer. So with a 1911, the variation in materials, build quality, fit-and-finish, accuracy, reliability, etc. will be different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Maybe this is one of the reasons that the 1911 (as a design) has earned a reputation as not always reliable out of the box. Whereas the Sig P220 is usually regarded as the most accurate and reliable mass produced .45 semi-auto firearm out of the box.

I own both a 1911 and a 220, and I like them both very much. But they are 2 completely different designs, with different controls, different ergonomics, and their own unique pros and cons. I'd say that every serious .45ACP fan should eventually own both! :)
My thinking was since the P-220 is highly regarded and I always heard excelent ratings on it I would get that and then get a Armscor RIA .45 1911 ACP for around 400.

KyleMichael2212
June 15, 2012, 01:12 AM
Ok boys, this is the big one! I officially have the 1911 bug. Almost 2 years ago I had a problematic Springfield 1911 and swore off them for good, but I can't resist!

I'd love a full size 1911 that can serve as a HD pistol and possibly CCW. My main requirements are absolute reliability and durability. I don't mind if it rattles as long as its well built to work and last a lifetime.

I've heard that new Colts aren't any good, and their machinery is worn out and outdated. Is that true? And I don't really want another Springfield. I want something American with a forged frame that's built for total reliability, not a target gun that's water tight. I don't need a bunch of frills and whistles either, I'll replace what I want after 2k rounds or so.

My budget? I guess about $1500-2k
You probably dont want another Springfield, but have you seen their Mil Spec 1911? I have heard nothing but good reviews for them. Also take a look at Remington 1911's. I have their 1911 R1, and for $700, I'll put it up against a 1500-2000 1911 anyday. It might not be a Kimber, but its a darn good 1911 for the price. Ruger also makes 1911's. Their not many options of it to choose from, but they look great and shoot great too. I cant remember how much they are though. Out of the 3 I mentioned, I have shot the Remington and Ruger. Both are fantastic for the price. Solid, accurate, and dependable. I havn't shot the Springfield 1911 Mil Spec, but I havn't heard anything negative about them. But if price is not an option for you, Colt or Kimber. The 2 most expensive. Expensive isn't always better though. Give a look at Springfield, Ruger, and Remington before you spend over $1000. But in the end, its your $, your choice. Hope this helped.

biggameballs
June 15, 2012, 01:46 AM
I picked up my Ruger 1911 for $590 + tax. I also waited 8 months for it though. For the price I paid it blows anything else in the price range out of the water. Many people are paying over $750 for them. At $750+ there is some competition.

Taroman
June 15, 2012, 01:59 AM
Another vote for Colt.
Forget the bling stuff.
They've had 101 years to get it sorted.
Carried one in the Army and had no qualms if I'd ever gotten into a SHTF situation.

Auto426
June 15, 2012, 03:21 AM
Actually, Sig does currently make a SAO (single action only) model of the 220 and the 220 Carry. Cocked and locked, single action, just like a 1911. However, the Sig does not have the 1911's grip safety. Also, for anyone familiar with the 1911's slide catch lever, the Sig slide catch lever will take a lot of getting used to.

I was trying to talk only about the original setups for the two guns since Stinger seems to be pretty confused about how each gun functions. That's why I said "traditional" Sigs in that post.

There's also the DAK trigger system, if Stinger doesn't want a safety or a decocker, which has a consistent 6.5# double action pull for every shot if you let the trigger fully reset, or an 8# if you let the trigger only reset partway.

stinger 327
June 15, 2012, 01:35 PM
I was trying to talk only about the original setups for the two guns since Stinger seems to be pretty confused about how each gun functions. That's why I said "traditional" Sigs in that post.

There's also the DAK trigger system, if Stinger doesn't want a safety or a decocker, which has a consistent 6.5# double action pull for every shot if you let the trigger fully reset, or an 8# if you let the trigger only reset partway.
I do understand these are two totally different design of guns. The 1911 is single action only but the design feels great in my hands. Sig Sauer just the name speaks for itself in quality and is double action just like a revolver.

stinger 327
June 15, 2012, 01:36 PM
Keep in mind that the 1911 design is currently being manufactured in hundreds of different configurations by almost every major firearms manufacturer, on multiple continents, and also by at least 2 or 3 dozen custom shops.

The P220 is made by 1 single company - Sig Sauer. So with a 1911, the variation in materials, build quality, fit-and-finish, accuracy, reliability, etc. will be different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Maybe this is one of the reasons that the 1911 (as a design) has earned a reputation as not always reliable out of the box. Whereas the Sig P220 is usually regarded as the most accurate and reliable mass produced .45 semi-auto firearm out of the box.

I own both a 1911 and a 220, and I like them both very much. But they are 2 completely different designs, with different controls, different ergonomics, and their own unique pros and cons. I'd say that every serious .45ACP fan should eventually own both! :)
Unfortunately $$$ This seems very likely but I wouldn't want to spend more than $800 for the first .45 ACP pistol.

Skylerbone
June 15, 2012, 02:13 PM
Stinger, if you are considering a carry 1911 go back to 9mmepiphany's signature line and click every link. Remember that every one of us can have a different mindset, no different than the Ford/Chevy guys but those links (and their poster) share the thoughts of professionals intimately familiar with what works and why. Those few pages are infinitely more valuable than any anecdotal evidence of what worked for me, buckhorn or mljdeckard.

While I alluded to buying a Baer, I only meant it was the least expensive option I would consider for a likely out of the box and long-term choice. There are many other less expensive choices that I would consider with a fair amount of work by a good smith. Not knowing your comfort or patience threshold I chose a turn-key 1911. I have met with great success having $900 1911s modified into $1,600+ 1911s but that's spittin distance from a LB. It would sting to lose one to the evidence locker but not nearly as much as losing a family member.

gym
June 15, 2012, 05:28 PM
I neglected the R1, and oddly I posted a picture of mine in another thread, they are very nice accurate guns, also Sig is supposed to be coming out with a line to compete with Kimber, 3-5 inchpistols in the 1911 model, they are so similar there probablly will be several lawsuits. Kimber is responsible almost single handedlly of causing the resurgence of the 1911 pistol. Ayoob, Hickock and many others have stated this. 5-12 years ago, only die hard 1911 "old school" gunmen were into the old style design of the famous 1911 pistol.
The Hi cap polymer guns ruled, "and still do" as a hole. But those smaller compact and ultra compact 1911's in the fantastic color and metal etching designs, brought the guns back to the mainstream shooters. We have them to thank for the current interest of the guns that many of us grew up thinking about when the word "auto pistol" was mentioned.It was snubbies and 1911's that got me hooked. Then I went the way of the Glock generation, now they are back with a bang, "thank the 1911 gods". I just figured I would make this jesture of thanks to Kimber and others who saw the interest was there for giving us our favorite guns back with a larger selection than ever before.
And to those who never shot one, "you are missing something special". it's like a swiss watch,"someone already said that" but it's true, It's not a Casio.
Whichever gun you chose, "i believe I read an R1" you will be very happy with, as it's shooting at it's core.

stinger 327
June 15, 2012, 09:02 PM
I neglected the R1, and oddly I posted a picture of mine in another thread, they are very nice accurate guns, also Sig is supposed to be coming out with a line to compete with Kimber, 3-5 inchpistols in the 1911 model, they are so similar there probablly will be several lawsuits. Kimber is responsible almost single handedlly of causing the resurgence of the 1911 pistol. Ayoob, Hickock and many others have stated this. 5-12 years ago, only die hard 1911 "old school" gunmen were into the old style design of the famous 1911 pistol.
The Hi cap polymer guns ruled, "and still do" as a hole. But those smaller compact and ultra compact 1911's in the fantastic color and metal etching designs, brought the guns back to the mainstream shooters. We have them to thank for the current interest of the guns that many of us grew up thinking about when the word "auto pistol" was mentioned.It was snubbies and 1911's that got me hooked. Then I went the way of the Glock generation, now they are back with a bang, "thank the 1911 gods". I just figured I would make this jesture of thanks to Kimber and others who saw the interest was there for giving us our favorite guns back with a larger selection than ever before.
And to those who never shot one, "you are missing something special". it's like a swiss watch,"someone already said that" but it's true, It's not a Casio.
Whichever gun you chose, "i believe I read an R1" you will be very happy with, as it's shooting at it's core.
The RIA sounds like a great buy for the $$$

ACP
June 15, 2012, 10:06 PM
I just bought a 2012 Colt Commander, in stainless with black rubber grips. 200 rounds through a bone stock gun (with Colt magazines) and not one problem. 300 more to go before I carry it outside of the shooting range.

I've carried Les Baer, Dan Wesson, Springfield TRP, S&W, and Colt 1911s, as well as a 70 Series Commander that I spent over $1,000 customizing with Ed Brown parts.

The "best self-defense 1911" is the one you have found to be reliable and can shoot well. That will vary from person to person.

doc540
June 16, 2012, 09:44 AM
CCO....another option

Commander size slide, Officers lightweight frame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/1911/Colt%20CCO%201998/015-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/1911/Colt%20CCO%201998/014-1-1.jpg

stinger 327
June 16, 2012, 02:33 PM
CCO....another option

Commander size slide, Officers lightweight frame

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/1911/Colt%20CCO%201998/015-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/1911/Colt%20CCO%201998/014-1-1.jpg
Beautiful gun and with laser sights.

gym
June 16, 2012, 02:39 PM
Speaking of this I was just offered a KIMBER PRO CARRY HD II STAINLESS 1911 45 ACP with fiber sites , Can I get some advice on this gun, You may PM me so not to interfere with the ops post, or add this one in as a possibility for his consideration also.I read good and bad about it.

stinger 327
June 16, 2012, 02:41 PM
Speaking of this I was just offered a KIMBER PRO CARRY HD II STAINLESS 1911 45 ACP with fiber sites , Can I get some advice on this gun, You may PM me so not to interfere with the ops post, or add this one in as a possibility for his consideration also.I read good and bad about it.
Kimber is not an option for me. Too expensive $$$. I have heard of better buys than the Kimber brand and this is for a brand new gun.

Roadking Rider
June 16, 2012, 03:45 PM
You really want a 1911 that will shoot anything you feed it for your SD that won't break the bank. RIA's builds some very reliable 1911's. I have no problem carrying mine for SD.

stinger 327
June 16, 2012, 04:18 PM
You really want a 1911 that will shoot anything you feed it for your SD that won't break the bank. RIA's builds some very reliable 1911's. I have no problem carrying mine for SD.
The RIA looks very promising. However I love the Sig Sauer and would want to get one of those so perhaps get a P-220 and a RIA? Choices choices will have to see. I only need one dependable 1911.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
E series S&W or a Sig Sauer C3. There are others that are as good or better, but these IMHO are the best for the money spent.

orionengnr
June 16, 2012, 10:38 PM
I have owned three Colts and three Springfields (and a bunch of other 1911s), and although I try to never say never, let's just say I have no Colts or Springfields on my hip, in my safe or on my shopping list.

If I had $1500-2000 to spend I would be looking for a used Les Baer, Wilson or Ed Brown.

I have missed two different Wilsons in the last three years, both for about $1100-1200. One needed refinishing, but at that price I'd be happy to pay for it.

I bought my Les Baer for $1200. It had a minor problem, but that was resolved by a good 1911-smith for about $200, and I doubt I will ever sell it.

I have not seen any give-away prices on Ed Browns, but always have my eyes open. :)

I am wearing the first Kimber I ever bought (and the one I have shot and carried the most) as I type this. Since I bought this one, I have bought seven others. I do not own them all today (I am a serial owner, and practice "buy one, sell one"), but still own several Kimbers. Every one of them works/worked perfectly, which is why I keep buying them.

You will encounter many opinions, all worth exactly what you paid for them. Here is mine:

If you can, try it before you buy it.

If it works with a variety of ammo, and you shoot it reasonably well, buy it...no matter what internet pundits say.

Shoot it often, become proficient. If you wish to change parts, do so, but be aware that many parts require fitting. Don't be afraid to look for a good 1911-smith. And make sure that he really is one...

allshotout.com
June 16, 2012, 10:54 PM
I have been carrying Kimber Ultra Carry II. Been really pleased with this gun. Have seen folks have some issues getting Kimbers to run, and will admit it was touchy first 500 rounds. After that, no issues.

stinger 327
June 17, 2012, 12:15 AM
I have been carrying Kimber Ultra Carry II. Been really pleased with this gun. Have seen folks have some issues getting Kimbers to run, and will admit it was touchy first 500 rounds. After that, no issues.
I have heard Kimbers are over rated and over priced as other 1911's can be had that perform better and cost alot less. In any case I don't want to spend that kind of $$$ in the Kimber price range.

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