Remember when the greens were after lead ammo


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Sky
June 11, 2012, 12:58 PM
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/11/47311.htm

The plaintiffs ask the court to set aside the EPA decision and order the agency to consider the petition anew.
"The EPA has the ability to immediately end the unintended killing of eagles, swans, loons, condors and other wildlife," the Center for Biological Diversity's Jeff Miller said in a statement. "Unfortunately, the agency refuses to address this needless poisoning. We've removed toxic lead from gasoline, paint and most products exposing humans to lead poisoning; now it's time to do the same for hunting ammunition to protect America's wildlife."
The groups are represented by William Snape in Washington, D.C.

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Owen Sparks
June 11, 2012, 01:13 PM
I think what has happened is that the popularity of all copper bullets such as those marketed by Barns and others has made the statists realize that banning lead will not work as a backdoor way to ban ammo because really good bullets can be made from other materials.

There are always two reasons for every law. The good reason and the real reason.

Romeo 33 Delta
June 11, 2012, 01:29 PM
Primarily, the law strictly limits the EPA's ability to regulate lead bullets. I forget the particulars, but Federal law when written and passed made it IMPOSSIBLE for the EPA to intrude ... and their efforts died immediately.

The Lone Haranguer
June 11, 2012, 01:53 PM
I would think if an animal ingested a lead pellet or bullet, they would simply pass it. Fumes or vapors containing lead are what poisons you.

Apuuli
June 11, 2012, 02:49 PM
I would think if an animal ingested a lead pellet or bullet, they would simply pass it. Fumes or vapors containing lead are what poisons you.

That is simply not true. Ingestion of lead is the main route of exposure (this includes lead dissolved in liquid, dust on fingers and food, etc.). Of course a pellet has less surface area than dust and so is less immediately toxic if it does pass.

walking arsenal
June 11, 2012, 03:00 PM
I'm willing to wager that there are more pounds of lead lost and ingested in the form of fishing lures than are in the form of lead shot and bullets.

Hunterdad
June 11, 2012, 03:02 PM
I would think if an animal ingested a lead pellet or bullet, they would simply pass it. Fumes or vapors containing lead are what poisons you.

Not true. Although the main cause of lead poisoning is caused by dust, ingesting lead shot/bullets can poison just the same. A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.

JohnM
June 11, 2012, 03:10 PM
Not true. Although the main cause of lead poisoning is caused by dust, ingesting lead shot/bullets can poison just the same. A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.

Can you provide links to document such statements?

Sky
June 11, 2012, 03:18 PM
Not true. Although the main cause of lead poisoning is caused by dust, ingesting lead shot/bullets can poison just the same. A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.

Can you provide links to document such statements?

Me too!

Other than brain development and nervous system disorders I would like to see where a scientific study says a paint chip will kill someone; Maybe someplace in California would/could come up with a study funded by PETA but I doubt the whole paint chip thing has any validity.



Lead poisoning can cause a variety of symptoms and signs which vary depending on the individual and the duration of lead exposure.[14][15] Symptoms are nonspecific and may be subtle, and someone with elevated lead levels may have no symptoms.[16] Symptoms usually develop over weeks to months as lead builds up in the body during a chronic exposure, but acute symptoms from brief, intense exposures also occur.[17] Symptoms from exposure to organic lead, which is probably more toxic than inorganic lead due to its lipid solubility, occur rapidly.[18] Poisoning by organic lead compounds has symptoms predominantly in the central nervous system, such as insomnia, delirium, cognitive deficits, tremor, hallucinations, and convulsions.[13]

Symptoms may be different in adults and children; the main symptoms in adults are headache, abdominal pain, memory loss, kidney failure, male reproductive problems, and weakness, pain, or tingling in the extremities.[19]

Early symptoms of lead poisoning in adults are commonly nonspecific and include depression, loss of appetite, intermittent abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, and muscle pain.[20] Other early signs in adults include malaise, fatigue, decreased libido, and problems with sleep.[14] An unusual taste in the mouth and personality changes are also early signs.[21]

In adults, symptoms can occur at levels above 40 μg/dL, but are more likely to occur only above 50–60 μg/dL.[14] Symptoms begin to appear in children generally at around 60 μg/dL.[22] However, the lead levels at which symptoms appear vary widely depending on unknown characteristics of each individual.[23] At blood lead levels between 25 and 60 μg/dL, neuropsychiatric effects such as delayed reaction times, irritability, and difficulty concentrating, as well as slowed motor nerve conduction and headache can occur.[24] Anemia may appear at blood lead levels higher than 50 μg/dL.[20] In adults, Abdominal colic, involving paroxysms of pain, may appear at blood lead levels greater than 80 μg/dL.[15] Signs that occur in adults at blood lead levels exceeding 100 μg/dL include wrist drop and foot drop, and signs of encephalopathy (a condition characterized by brain swelling), such as those that accompany increased pressure within the skull, delirium, coma, seizures, and headache.[25] In children, signs of encephalopathy such as bizarre behavior, discoordination, and apathy occur at lead levels exceeding 70 μg/dL.[25] For both adults and children, it is rare to be asymptomatic if blood lead levels exceed 100 μg/dL.[15]

Owen Sparks
June 11, 2012, 03:34 PM
Is there a cure or treatment for lead poisoning?

Owen
June 11, 2012, 03:35 PM
The lead in paint is a lead compounds, not the elemental lead used in bullets. The lead compounds are the more troublesome forms of lead (for people at least) related to heavy metal poisoning, and are found in paint, leaded gasoline, etc.

lead paint = Lead(II) chromate and Lead(II) Carbonate
Lead in firearms primers = Lead styphanate and lead azide
Lead in gasoline = tetraethyl Lead

Birds are a little different than most mammals because they hold things in their crop to help grind food. They actually seek out pebbles to do this, which is why chickens are fed grit. I'm guessing this is contributary to the problem, but im no ornithologist

Owen
June 11, 2012, 03:41 PM
Mr. Sparks, for very high lead levels there is a chemical treament called chelation. Other than that, the "cure" is to reduce exposure, and wait for the levels to drop.

hso
June 11, 2012, 03:47 PM
Yes, the fact that birds grind the materials in their crops increases the surface area for digestive acids to dissolve some of the ingested lead. If not for the acids and grinding, little of the lead would be absorbed.

EPA specifically excludes lead in ammunition and fishing weights from the TSCA regulation and trying to get EPA to act under TSCA will always result in EPA responding that it has no authority under the TSCA to regulate ammunition. The only way for these folks to get any traction is to try to get TSCA amended and that is not likely to happen.

As to the paint chip statement, that's incorrect. Children in housing with lead paint have ingested far more than a fingernail sized chip. The problems with lead toxicity by ingestion are well known, but an acute toxicity resulting in death like that isn't one of them.

Sky
June 11, 2012, 03:48 PM
Source; http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning%23Signs_and_symptoms&rct=j&q=symptoms+of+lead+poisoning&usg=AFQjCNFSyD7urTfo1r_OQ8KBGriNYOsWxQ&sa=X&ei=LjbWT7aeK8_16gHg7NixAw&sqi=2&ved=0CIABEMoEMAI

The lead in paint is a lead compounds, not the elemental lead used in bullets. The lead compounds are the more troublesome forms of lead (for people at least) related to heavy metal poisoning, and are found in paint, leaded gasoline, etc.

lead paint = Lead(II) chromate and Lead(II) Carbonate
Lead in firearms primers = Lead styphanate and lead azide
Lead in gasoline = tetraethyl Lead

Birds are a little different than most mammals because they hold things in their crop to help grind food. They actually seek out pebbles to do this, which is why chickens are fed grit. I'm guessing this is contributary to the problem, but im no ornithologist

This study has been cited by popular media as simple evidence that hunting increases exposure to lead poisoning, prompting the University of Illinois Extension to release a statement that there is no such risk.[65] Concerning the CDC report, the authors' conclusion in a related Epi-AID Trip Report[66] notes the small increase associated with game consumption in the study, and urges interpretation with respect to environmental context:


While this study suggests that consumption of wild game meat can adversely affect PbB, no participant had PbB higher than the CDC recommended threshold of 10μg/dl—the level at which CDC recommends case management; and the geometric mean PbB among this study population (1.17μg/dl) was lower than the overall population geometric mean PbB in the United States (1.60 μg/dl) [[67]]. The clinical significance of low PbB in this sample population and the small quantitative increase of 0.30μg/dl in PbB associated with wild game consumption should be interpreted in the context of naturally occurring PbB.[66]



Is there a cure or treatment for lead poisoning?
Treatment

CDC management guidelines for children with elevated blood levels[129]



Blood lead
level (μg/dL)

Treatment



10–14

Education,
repeat screening



15–19

Repeat screening, case
management to abate sources



20–44

Medical evaluation,
case management



45–69

Medical evaluation,
chelation, case management



>69

Hospitalization, immediate
chelation, case management


The mainstays of treatment are removal from the source of lead and, for people who have significantly high blood lead levels or who have symptoms of poisoning, chelation therapy.[130] Treatment of iron, calcium, and zinc deficiencies, which are associated with increased lead absorption, is another part of treatment for lead poisoning.[131] When lead-containing materials are present in the gastrointestinal tract (as evidenced by abdominal X-rays), whole bowel irrigation, cathartics, endoscopy, or even surgical removal may be used to eliminate it from the gut and prevent further exposure.[132] Lead-containing bullets and shrapnel may also present a threat of further exposure and may need to be surgically removed if they are in or near fluid-filled or synovial spaces.[41] If lead encephalopathy is present, anticonvulsants may be given to control seizures, and treatments to control swelling of the brain include corticosteroids and mannitol.[13][133] Treatment of organic lead poisoning involves removing the lead compound from the skin, preventing further exposure, treating seizures, and possibly chelation therapy for people with high blood lead concentrations.[134]




Some lead compounds are colorful and are used widely in paints,[37] and lead paint is a major route of lead exposure in children.[38] It has been found that 38 million housing units in the US had lead-based paint, down from the 1990 estimate of 64 million.[39] Deteriorating lead paint can produce dangerous lead levels in household dust and soil.[40] Deteriorating lead paint and lead-containing household dust are the main causes of chronic lead poisoning.[19] The lead breaks down into the dust and since children are more prone to crawling on the floor, it is easily ingested.[39] Many young children display pica, eating things that are not food. Even a small amount of a lead-containing product such as a paint chip or a sip of glaze can contain tens or hundreds of milligrams of lead.[41] Eating chips of lead paint presents a particular hazard to children, generally producing more severe poisoning than occurs from dust.[42] However, removing lead paint from dwellings, e.g. by sanding or torching, can create lead-containing dust and fumes.[43] Therefore, special precautions must be taken when removing lead paint.[43]


That might answer some questions

Hunterdad
June 11, 2012, 04:13 PM
I have the documents to prove it at work. I'm currently home with a newborn and won't be back to work until next Monday. But, I can tell you, its true. Of course it boils down to individual susceptibility. What may seriously effect one child, may not effect another at all.
I have been inspecting houses for lead based paint for almost 15 years. I'm a licensed risk assessor, inspector and lead contractor supervisor through the EPA. I am a licensed trainer to train in all disciplines of lead, mold and asbestos. I'm also licensed to do laboratory testing for lead paint chips, dust and water. Not trying to toot my own horn, just don't want anyone to think I'm BS'ing anyone.

ol' scratch
June 12, 2012, 02:58 PM
I just read that the introduced petition does not affect military or police. http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/zeroing-in-on-lead-in-hunters-bullets/

Also, to those in the know. Does this create a problem for avian species? How did they come up with this 20 million bird number? If anyone has ever been on a bird count they would know that it is less than scientific. Every other study I have read indicates that eagles in particular are on the rise. If you have ever been to the Lake Erie shoreline you would see scads of them. Where are they coming up with this? The above sited article claims that shooting lead releases 3000 tons of lead into the environment. How do they know this?

lloveless
June 12, 2012, 03:06 PM
Hunterdad, I know you mean well. I was a member of the Health Dept and I was funded by the lead program. You are wrong about a chip the size of a thumbnail killing a child. If that were the case most of us wouldn't be here, because our parents and grandparents would have died.
ll

hso
June 12, 2012, 03:11 PM
Hunterdad,

I'm an industrial hygienist for the environmental business unit of a large consulting contractor. You're information is incorrect if you contend that a fingernail sized piece of lead paint will kill a child upon ingestion.

grasssnake
June 12, 2012, 03:22 PM
affect not effect

todayshighlights
June 12, 2012, 05:37 PM
Starting this year, there is a state wide ban on lead sinkers and jigs weighing less then 1 ounce in fresh waters.

This is of course to protect the 32 nesting pairs of loons located on 14 lakes in the state. Massachusetts is at the extreme southern end of the loon's migration. Loons need 1000 acres per nesting pair to survive, and half of the loons are at the Quabbin Reservoir, where lead has been banned forever.

And to kick'em while they're down - LOONS EAT FISH

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/recreation/fishing/lead_sinkers_loons.htm

Carl N. Brown
June 12, 2012, 06:34 PM
If I remember H.P. Lovecraft's "The Colour Out of Space" correctly, lead sinkers are not the only danger in a Massachusett's resevoir.

On a serious note, lead compounds such as those used in paint are much more toxic than the metallic elemental lead used in ammo or sinkers. Although I make a point of washing my hands after handling lead when reloading ammo or cleaning guns, before eating or drinking.

Hunterdad
June 12, 2012, 06:36 PM
Ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Obviously, I was misunderstood and clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

TurtlePhish
June 12, 2012, 10:01 PM
If I remember H.P. Lovecraft's "The Colour Out of Space" correctly, lead sinkers are not the only danger in a Massachusett's resevoir.


Those loons better watch out... Heck, we better watch out..

Yeah, lead in compounds gets into living things quite a bit more easily than elemental lead.

Sky
June 12, 2012, 10:29 PM
Ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Obviously, I was misunderstood and clearly have no idea what I'm talking about

I personally am not doubting you were told, or studied, or read a paper/study that indicated a paint chip will do a kid in. What many of us were asking is Where is the info and where did it come from? With so many agendas being published and taught in our schools now it is problematic separating the hard science from the agenda science.

x_wrench
June 13, 2012, 12:26 PM
A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.

i can not imagine that this statement can be true. i remember when they were banning lead in paint. they were talking about how it effected the brains, and slowed development in poor children in low income housing. who were eating the paint chips pealing off the walls of their rental housing. the key was the kids were eating many chips, for extended periods of time. and they were not dying, they were developing learning problems, and other issues.

as far as animals ingesting lead pellets, and dying from it, i guess that would depend on many things. in most part, how sensitive that species is to lead poisoning, and how their digestive system works. some critters have stomach acid that can dissolve almost anything. and if it can dissolve lead, in a fast enough time, and it has a low toxicity level to lead, then i could see how one could die from it. i am no veterinarian. and i have no idea if any animal could do that or not. i would not consider a death from eating lead a lead related death, if it simply chokes on something, or gets it lodged in a place where it stops it from breathing, or passing waste. it could do that from plastic just as well as from lead. so in my eyes, that would not be a lead related death.

what i do know, is the people that want to ban lead, will stop at nothing, to distort the truth as far as they are able, in order to win support. that would include bribery, extortion, or any other way to manipulate someone to get them to go along with them. make no mistake, this is all out war on their part. and once they ban lead, they will not stop there. i do not know how to wake up America to the facts that are right in front of their faces.

bergmen
June 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
Yes, the fact that birds grind the materials in their crops increases the surface area for digestive acids to dissolve some of the ingested lead. If not for the acids and grinding, little of the lead would be absorbed.


Not to be nit-picky but the crop is intended as a temporary storage location for food. It is also softens the food before going to the stomach and gizzard to be processed and further broken down. The gizzard is where the gravel and sand resides to assist in this grinding and breaking down, not in the crop:

http://fsc.fernbank.edu/birding/digestion.htm

Dan

Neverwinter
June 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
If anyone has ever been on a bird count they would know that it is less than scientific. Every other study I have read indicates that eagles in particular are on the rise. If you have ever been to the Lake Erie shoreline you would see scads of them.
Pot, meet kettle.

Also, which studies?

Sent using Tapatalk 2

Mp7
June 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
i almost wanna make me a lead-tea, now :-)


(i do understand there´s a big allergy vs over-regulation
in the US. But there also is a big tendecy to go over the
top when it comes defending a position at all cost.)

rajb123
June 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
Heavy metal poisoning is a problem. Metal tooth fillings contain mercury and it is a problem too.

I think Vermont banned lead sinkers 20 years ago. NY prevented a shooting range I used 15 years ago from using lead shotgun loads....

Certaindeaf
June 13, 2012, 02:10 PM
It's kinda funny everyone is getting bled dead by a thousand cuts when in all liklihood (Steven Hawkings says it's a 100% certainty) we'll do our own selves in with an instantaneous flash.

Library Guy
June 13, 2012, 02:53 PM
While “A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child” is probably not accurate, an ingested lead charm bracelet medallion has caused death.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/118/6/2548.long

Abstract
A 4-year-old black boy was admitted to the hospital with vomiting, low-grade fever, and dehydration that were thought to be caused by viral gastroenteritis. He proceeded over the next 12 hours to rapidly deteriorate with brain herniation leading to brain death. The ultimate cause of death was found to be acute lead intoxication from a swallowed foreign body.

JN01
June 14, 2012, 08:07 PM
I've always wondered about gunshot victims who have unrecoverable bullets left in their bodies; does any of the lead circulate though their body over time?

Library Guy
June 14, 2012, 09:13 PM
Whether or not a retained bullet causes lead poisoning depends mostly on where the bullet is. Usually bullets in soft tissue form an inert cyst. Bullets left in bone or in the joints can cause plumbism.

Certaindeaf
June 14, 2012, 09:18 PM
We just need lasers.. in the thirty watt range.

Randy in Arizona
June 17, 2012, 07:17 PM
This is of course to protect the 32 nesting pairs of loons located on 14 lakes in the state. Massachusetts is at the extreme southern end of the loon's migration.

Unfortunately when the loons reach the Southern end of their migration, They are elected to the state legislature!

396

blarby
June 17, 2012, 08:26 PM
thirty watt range.

Its megawatt range, if you are quoting what I think you are.

A 30 watt laser is about as dangerous as a 30 watt light bulb.

wacki
June 17, 2012, 11:43 PM
Not true. Although the main cause of lead poisoning is caused by dust, ingesting lead shot/bullets can poison just the same. A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.

Paint chips don't contain elemental lead. They contain a very toxic cousin called lead acetate. Children used to eat paint chips because lead acetate was very sweet.

Ludvig von Beethoven, Pope Clement II, Albert Christoph Dies.. etc all died from lead acetate.

Back in the middle ages people used lead based pewter plates. That's fine... until you start eating lots of high acid tomatoes. And this is why tomatoes were viewed as poisonous for centuries.


The point is lead can be very bad under some conditions and no big deal under others.

Sky
June 17, 2012, 11:57 PM
Think the Roman Emperors had running water delivered in lead pipes; could explain a few things about some of the more infamous?

Certaindeaf
June 18, 2012, 12:05 AM
^
They also added lead to wine to sweeten it.

Wanderling
June 18, 2012, 12:37 PM
^
They also added lead to wine to sweeten it.
Yes, although I think I read they didn't add lead directly, but stored wine in vessels that had lead in them, this would over time give wine a very special sweet taste (due to wine acids reacting with lead).

I wonder if there were any studies of the bones done over time to see if they had high enough lead content to cause mental issues. Although I think their behavior had more to do with having unlimited powers in a society that didn't value human life, plus childhood experiences (if you read about the way Caligula was brought up, no wonder he had mental issues and was a big time hater of people).

Anyway, back to the original topic. Unfortunately, there are "green" zealots that would gladly send everyone back to the stone age to prevent a rare species of frogs from dying out, and then there are "anti-regulation" zealots that would gladly have us live in a pool of acid water covered by poison smog in the name of free enterprise. The truth is lost in between.

Owen Sparks
June 18, 2012, 12:54 PM
The thing I never understood about lead polution is the fact that lead comes from the ground in the first place. They literally dig it up. Shooters just return it to the Earth.

Wanderling
June 18, 2012, 12:59 PM
When did you last see the natural lead on the surface ? And how widely distributed was it ? AFAIK it typically exists in the form of lead ore that needs to be dug up. Not pure lead.

Radioactive materials are also found naturally, but "returning them to the earth" isn't such a great idea.

rajb123
June 18, 2012, 01:21 PM
dental fillings also contain heavy metal (mercury). Uhg!

Are we worried more about lead shot from a shotgun, or are we also including bullets shot from rifles?

In the field, shotguns are fired often, however, rifles are very rarely fired except maybe 22lrs which cantain only 40 gains or so of lead.

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