OK. Ruger left us in the cold. How bout a USA C+B?

After Bill brought it out so many years ago and I for one basically ignored it until I got smart in my 40's, we are left with only old stock Old Army's. I have three myself, a 78, an 83 and an 03. Love them like no other revolvers I own. Prices are soaring. I don't like competing to get a gun off an auction site either.
I have to ponder though, is there not some profit to be made by another USA manufacturer in putting out a cap and ball at the $600 or so price point? I'd be so tickled to buy a 36 caliber solid frame stainless revolver that kept my money at home. Something along the quality lines of our Rugers, nothing fancy or flashy. Just a good, solid gun in a variety of barrel lengths with a few of the refinements to love like coil springs and SAE (not metric) sized parts. No disrespect to foreign guns--- I own some and am tickled with them. Thoughts? Don.

I would LOVE to have a good USA made BP revolver that I could actually afford to buy.

Always liked the looks of the ROA, but couldn't swing the cost. My first BP revolver was a brass-frame "1858 Army Remington" sold by CVA, not sure who made it.

honestly, given the huge popularity of CAS, i am kinda surprised that ruger hasn't re-introduced their C&B revolvers; either individualy or as a set of two for SASS like they do with the vaquero.

I could go for a US made C&B revolver. now you got me wishing.

I'd be so tickled to buy a 36 caliber solid frame stainless revolver that kept my money at home.

Euroarms was selling a beauty of a stainless .36 Remington but now they're out of business.
The Europeans seem to have more & different offerings than we get in the U.S..
If Euroarms couldn't stay in business while making them less expensive than Americans, then how would a U.S. company be able to stay in business making them?
There's always the possibility. But even when U.S. Firearms was assembling cap & ball guns using Uberti parts, they stopped producing them after a while too.
Not as many Europeans are able to own smokeless guns so more of them shoot cap & balls, while Americans overwhelmly choose to shoot smokeless guns. The result is that not as many Americans shoot cap & ball guns. That limits the market of folks who would pay the higher prices for American made cap & ball guns.
And many Americans who do shoot them already have multiple C&B guns, especially the collectors of the higher end 2nd & 3rd Generation Colts, commemoratives and now Rugers.
Another issue is that a great majority of folks want guns that are close clones of the originals. The Italians seem to have that part of the world market pretty much cornered. They had the head start in the industry and now they're miles ahead which makes it hard for anyone to try to catch up with them.
I imagine that if the Chinese really wanted to compete with the Italians on the basis of price alone then they could probably do it. Maybe we should count our blessings that the Italians are doing such a good job making them for us. I wouldn't want to see another C&B maker going under like ASM and Euroarms did.
I hope that someone starts making an affordable Rogers & Spencer again. But since Pedersoli bought out Euroarms it will probably be them. :rolleyes:

I think the problem is that the ROA became too expensive given the volume. And (I'll get an argument here) the Italian replicas were cheap and er, ah, hmm, good enough, if you've not had a decent ROA in your hands for comparison.
So if someone came out with a new $600.00 B/P revolver, the ROA folks like me would likely buy one. However, it would still be competing against the much lower priced Italian pistols.

The ROA can't compete with the Italian metal now...and you can still get an ROA for $600, at least for a while.

When the demand reaches the point where people will pay $600.00 for a high quality B/P revolver....some one will make them.

The ROA is getting to the point where you can pretty much put one together from after market parts. The only thing you can't get is the frame.

Everyone LOVES '57 Chevies. The last ones I saw at a car show were priced about $50,000. But don't expect GM to make any more of 'em.

Cap and ball guns in cowboy action shooting are still used by only about 5% of the competitors. There are a lot of small clubs that don't have any black powder shooters. Let's face it; we are a small niche in the shooting community.

If you like the Ruger Old Army, best get one now.

i got my rugers at a very good price,that being said. i still miss the first BP revolver i bought a steel framed 58 rem in 44 from navy arms abot 40 years ago. it was well used when i got it but was not abused, i shot every thing from ground moles(didn,t hit many) to a doe(i would not do that again) at about 40 feet,hit her in the head and down she went. i,m more into BP rifles now but still take the pistols out now and again. eastbank.

I imagine that if the ROA had been profitable for Ruger they would still make them.

You're in your forties? Just wait a few years - the CAS guys will start dying of old age and you'll be able to pick them up cheap. The generation with nostalgia for cowboys is slipping away; there'll always be some of that, but nothing like it is now. The market will adjust.

You're in your forties? Just wait a few years - the CAS guys will start dying of old age and you'll be able to pick them up cheap. The generation with nostalgia for cowboys is slipping away; there'll always be some of that, but nothing like it is now. The market will adjust.

That's a good point. I'm no expert but a diminished interest in cowboy action shooting could lead to lower prices due to less demand. I don't think the priced will necessarily go down, however they could just stay the same for longer while prices of other goods inflate.

Of course, the price will be what the market will bear. And most people are smart enough to know that a $150 dollar pair of shoes is really cheaper than a $20 dollar pair of shoes.

Same applies to guns, why should you have to replace your $120 dollar .44 Colt brasser every couple years because it's shot loose when you can spend $350-600 on a gun like an ROA that will last a lifetime if properly taken care of.

Again, I'm no expert. That's just how I would imagine things would play out.

Heck, I got my ROA used at National Pawnbrokers in Arlington VA in 1980. Swapped a single shot bolt action 22 rifle for it.

Over the years there have been a few ideas for cap and ball revolvers. Back around 1960 American Rifleman carried an article about a guy converting a S&W pistol to cap and ball. Heck a hammer and conversion cylinder and convert a S&W 50 cal to a cap and ball. That would be a whomper. I have not studied any modern cartridge offerrings in many years, but I'm fairly certain there is a model or two that are technically and mechanically ripe for conversion.

I have an old POS H&R 32 cal suicide special that I pondered over converting.

Yes, an American made gun would be nice. Colt didn't generate enough business to continue to do it. Ruger already had the tooling and stopped.

I think the market is saturated with makers. And the American market for black powder arms is notoriously cheap. If you take two guns of similar design and quality of manufacture, they should cost the same - but many American customers think the muzzle-loader should cost half as much because it loads from the front end.

Colt didn't generate enough business to continue to do it.


Colt didn't "do it" the second time around either. The 2g/3g/Sig series Colts were made with Italian Uberti parts. :banghead:

You're in your forties? Just wait a few years - the CAS guys will start dying of old age and you'll be able to pick them up cheap. The generation with nostalgia for cowboys is slipping away; there'll always be some of that, but nothing like it is now. The market will adjust.

Ha! You think? I'm taking mine with me!!

Heck the ROA has already climbed above what many of us have paid for it. I can't believe what a CVA pistol that cost $30 new back when is bringing now on the gun auctions.

We can lament it's passing, but something drastic has got to happen before a production run begins again.

The only percussion revolvers I can think of that are USA made are the NAA companions. I wish there were more options for USA made cap and ball revolvers. I'd love it if they made a double action version of the NAA companion except it's in .32 caliber instead of .22. With a boot grip too, kind of like a J-Frame. That would be really cool!

USFA announced a US-made Remington a few years ago, and then shelved the gun silently, without explanation. They got our hopes up, and then they dashed them.

OK well just how many ROA's should one own to assure I don't run out?? Three stainless 7.5 inch adjustable sight models are I guess enough.......but then on the other hand.............Don

I only need to lay my hands on an adjustable sight SS ROA to find myself satisfied. I found my fixed sight guns ( both NEW - blue 7-1/2 & a SS 5-1/2) already, I'm just waiting for a nice price to grab the "less desired" model & call that section of my collection complete.
How much you want to bet that Ruger makes more once they have studied the market to see thier "target price" materialize?
If they resume, get your spare parts without hesitation, because it would probably be a good long time before they ever get made again!

Ruger discontinues products that don't sell. If they reintroduced it tomorrow, why would anyone think it would be any different? Most people who buy blackpowder guns either want Colt and Remington replicas because they are more period correct, or because they are cheap, or both. I love single actions of all kinds, particularly Colt percussion guns and cartridge conversions and have more Rugers than any other brand but the ROA holds no appeal for me whatsoever. I assume I'm not the only one.

Ruger is a BIG business. They could and should make the ROA forever in the memory of its founder who loved the ROA. They spend millions on advertising, why not do something for other than making a buck.

Ruger is a BIG business. They could and should make the ROA forever in the memory of its founder who loved the ROA. They spend millions on advertising, why not do something for other than making a buck.
You answered your own question. They are a big BUSINESS. Everything they do is to make a buck. That's what businesses do. :banghead:

Any body know if NAA has considered making something larger in caliber. Maybe a decent sized 31 or 36?

I don't know. :D

It wasn't that long ago that NAA came out with the C&B .22 Earl with 4 inch barrel. I wonder if they've sold very many of those yet?

The Earl photo on this page can be enlarged by clicking on it:

http://www.gunsforsale.us/NAA_18604CB_EARL_CAP_AND_BALL_4IN_p/70874.htm?gdftrk=gdfV24467_a_7c1739_a_7c5571_a_7c70874

Ruger is a BIG business......why not do something for other than making a buck.
Asked and answered. Companies who do things for sentimental reasons don't stay in business very long. They made them for years, if you want one, there are plenty of used ones on the market.

is there not some profit to be made by another USA manufacturer in putting out a cap and ball at the $600 or so price point?



How's about a 300 dollar price point?

http://i46.tinypic.com/jpy5xu.jpg

I want a BP Earl next. :D

Ruger is a BIG business. They could and should make the ROA forever in the memory of its founder who loved the ROA. They spend millions on advertising, why not do something for other than making a buck.
I happen to know a Ruger shareholder quite well. His answer to your question is that making a buck, lots of bucks, is what they damn well better do. This is a business, not some charity-sponsored museum to memories. Ruger's investors AND employees count on that.

However, if you'd like to start a little not-for-profit business to build ROA's to sell at cost to a fan club, I'm sure they'd cheer you on.

A couple of years ago NAA made a run of .22 break top revolvers. I think it was either 200 or 500 revolvers. They were sold out and discontinued before most people found out about them. :confused: It seems to me a strange business model that you design and tool up to produce a product that quickly sold out before almost anybody knew about them and not produce any more of them. All a very strange way of running a business to me. I would have liked to buy one.

Ruger responded to a vocal (but tiny) minority that wanted a modern cap and ball revolver. They got handed their heads because the result was not "period correct" and "Bobby Lee didn't carry THAT THING!!!"

The Ruger folks are not dumb enough to make the same mistake twice.

Jim

I guess I am going to be the dissenter.

Bill Ruger made lots of money for his company even with the ROA in the lineup, so not every product has to be a big seller. But greed has displaced nostalgia in the world we now live in. Money rules, in most peoples' minds these days. Surely Ruger could afford to reintroduce the ROA with barely a blip on its revenue radar. But when money has become your god, the ROA is laughable.

But then, I think differently from most people. :)

Yep. Money rules. Because I have to feed my family, put a roof over their heads, prepare them for the time when I won't be here to do that. I need money to do that, so I have no choice but to go out and earn it. So, money rules. You bet it does.

I did forget to add that I do indeed have an NAA Companion .22 cap and ball. It's just I hate to shoot it much since cast .22 bullets are expensive to feed it.I believe I was told in the past though that a certain size buckshot would work well. Busyhands? Don. Don.

Bill Ruger made lots of money for his company even with the ROA in the lineup, so not every product has to be a big seller. But greed has displaced nostalgia in the world we now live in. Money rules, in most peoples' minds these days. Surely Ruger could afford to reintroduce the ROA with barely a blip on its revenue radar. But when money has become your god, the ROA is laughable.
That's an interesting and idealistic view. Companies are in business to make money. If a product doesn't sell well enough to make a profit, you either change the product or make something else. Period. That simple. There is no room for sentimentality. It's not a charity.

Speaking of which, for all you charitable types, were you donating money to Ruger's legal defense fund when the Clintonistas were waging legal war on them???

A couple of years ago NAA made a run of .22 break top revolvers. I think it was either 200 or 500 revolvers. They were sold out and discontinued before most people found out about them. It seems to me a strange business model that you design and tool up to produce a product that quickly sold out before almost anybody knew about them and not produce any more of them. All a very strange way of running a business to me. I would have liked to buy one.

They simply could not make money on that gun. They sold it at over 500 bucks. How many folks want a top break mini revolver for, say 550 bucks? Not me, prefer the 300 dollar price point of the other revolvers. LOL

I love my ROA, and I would be willing to pay 600-ish for a new, American-made stainless revolver. I got my first one when I was fifteen, and my other two a bit later right before they stopped production. What I would really like to see is a modification of the Colt wedge system. I love how my 1851 points. Make it slightly stronger, with a stainless finish as good as that of the ROA. Make the wedge really slick and easy, with a modern push-button lock or something. And make the barrel section ACTUALLY FIT ON THE FRAME without having to beat it in place on a new gun:cuss:

As for lowered prices as "older shooters die off" I really doubt it. If anything, the interest is increasing. I'm in my 20's, and I know other young women my age who have a couple. We may not compete in SASS or stuff like that, but go to your local range or wander out in the cornfields and you might be surprised at who's got a BP revolver. It's not just for grumpy old guys with white mustaches anymore. :neener:

In fact, I've noticed that women are MORE likely to buy the ROA than they are to buy a replica 1860 army. The stainless 5-inch model is quite sought after, and I know a couple of girls who have cut-down custom revolvers.

I think there will always be a market for a US-made revolver, but the problem is that big companies like Ruger will not see enough profit in it compared to their other models. This reduces the chance of one being made, sad to say...

"In fact, I've noticed that women are MORE likely to buy the ROA than they are to buy a replica 1860 army. The stainless 5-inch model is quite sought after, and I know a couple of girls who have cut-down custom revolvers. "

That is an interesting observation. I suspect it may be due to better reliabilityof the ROA out of the box, rather than having to mess with the inherent cap jams, wedge fit, broken flat springs, etc. of the Colt open tops. Would that be right?

J-Bar:

Part of it IS the reliability factor, and that's why I love them. As one of my friends observed, "It's like you just can't break it." The cylinders are also easier to work with and the loading levers more robust than any of the replica Remingtons. IMHO, the stainless finish on the ROA's is higher quality than what I've seen on the Italian-made equivalents. One of my best friends carries a 5.5" ROA on a daily basis around her farm and the finish has held up really well to daily holster wear and being carried in sometimes damp conditions.

I'm with Indian Outlaw on this subject.
Mykeal, it's not a matter of Ruger being at risk of going out of business because of making the ROA.
As far as their legal woes at the hands of the antis, they were nowhere near the only gun mfr being molested at the time. I couldn't afford to "contribute" to all of them, but Ruger DID git some nice "donations" from me at the time. I'm a bit of a Ruger fan.

The argument of them making a mistake by making the ROA doesn't hold water, either.
They made it for way too many years for it to have been a mistake.

There's a HUGE difference between making a living and making a killing.
Making a living is good. Making a killing is not. Money is a necessary evil, but being money grubbing is not.
People have forgotten that avarice is bad.

I wouldn't criticize Ruger for discontinuing the Old Army. After all they produced it for ~36 years from 1972 until 2008. And they even assembled the last ROA's using leftover parts.
They produced more ROA's then there are shooters for them.
Most ROA's have been sitting in closets not being fired for many years.
And many ROA's will go back into the storage closet after they're resold.
Ruger made other classic and semi-classic guns that are still in demand which were produced in far less quantities and for fewer years than the ROA.
The main problem now is that Ruger doesn't have any more parts. Ruger probably figures that some companies will produce after market parts just like they do for the Ruger 10/22.

Mykeal, it's not a matter of Ruger being at risk of going out of business because of making the ROA.
As far as their legal woes at the hands of the antis, they were nowhere near the only gun mfr being molested at the time. I couldn't afford to "contribute" to all of them, but Ruger DID git some nice "donations" from me at the time. I'm a bit of a Ruger fan.

The argument of them making a mistake by making the ROA doesn't hold water, either.
They made it for way too many years for it to have been a mistake.
???

What post are you reading? I don't recognize any of the things you attribute to me.

Oops, yer right, Mykeal. Sorry, dude.

I did forget to add that I do indeed have an NAA Companion .22 cap and ball. It's just I hate to shoot it much since cast .22 bullets are expensive to feed it.I believe I was told in the past though that a certain size buckshot would work well. Busyhands? Don. Don.

Airgun pellets do work well in these guns. I suggest the heavy Eu-Jin pellets, those pack quite a punch. Being soft lead they shouldn't be used with smokeless gunpowder, but with Triple Seven or any other substitute you should be fine.

~Levi

The Eun Jin 28.4 grain heavies are my favorite heavy pellet for my .22 cal PCPs.

I've also had good results with those Eu-Jin pellets out of an air rifle. My buddy let me borrow his .22 airgun a few years back and those Eu-Jin's were awesome!

Personally I'd love a BP earl, that would be very fun to shoot! Only problem is I'm not going to spend the money on one. I have a Super Companion, and a 6" .22 caliber octagon barrel that is the perfect size. Shoot, if I can't buy...
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/busyhands94/NAAlongerbarrel.jpg

That could turn out pretty good! If this little bugger gets 1200 out of a short barrel with two grains of Bullseye I'd wonder what it could do with a 6" barrel. My guess is 1400 FPS.

~Levi

As good as Pietta's been making them lately ('58 Remingtons in particular) and as cheap as Cabela's has been selling them, I don't know why anyone would bother paying the freight for another ROA. Maybe Ruger wonders about that as well.

I like Ruger single-actions and often get fired up by these ROA threads. Then I end up on Gunbroker sifting through what's available. Inevitably, the exercise ends with the question "Why?".

Since you don't seem to be convinced by the testimony in these threads, the only way to answer your question is for you to actually own one. At that point the answer will become apparent.