Tul Ammo Small Pistol Primers FTF


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giggitygiggity
June 13, 2012, 01:12 AM
I have been using Tul Ammo small pistol primers in my .380 and 9mm loads. In both cases, I have been getting about 5-7% of the loads failing to firing on the first primer strike. Just about all of the ones that fail to fire the first time, go off on the second strike. For my .380, I am using a Bersa and the 9mm is a Sig P226. I am certain that the issue is not with the firearms as both of the firearms that I mentioned are well-made, especially the Sig and they both eat up factory ammo just fine. I am just wondering if anyone else has had issues with Tul Ammo primers. They were the cheapest and that's why I bought them. I'm hoping that I just got a bad batch. If this is common for Tul Ammo primers, I will be spending a couple extra bucks per thousand and getting CCI's as I have had great luck with them.

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Certaindeaf
June 13, 2012, 01:25 AM
Try seating them a little harder/firmer.. that's what I hear anyway.

Otto
June 13, 2012, 01:56 AM
Quality control at Wolf/Tula is spotty. Most lots are fine but some lots have duds.
Suggest you buy small quantities or an American made primer instead. The savings are not worth the trouble as you are finding out.
Wolf/Tula primers have unsupported anvils and seating them very firmly can help. But I've also seen where the anvils have fallen out completely....just depends on the batch.

gamestalker
June 13, 2012, 02:22 AM
I've been loading for more than 30 yrs. and have yet to experience a FTF. So for what it's worth, I would say with certainty that your primers are not seated deep enough. Inertia from the firing pin striking is ever so slightly pushing the primer into the pocket, which is why the second strike is doing the trick. All it takes is a very small amount of forward movement when the FP lands to prevent detonation. If it isn't dead seated to the bottom of the pocket, FTF's are certain to be a problem. I have loaded with CCI's almost exclusively with maybe 5% Winchester. And although Winchester has never failed me, CCI's design produce a very distintive feel when they reach bottom. You should actually be feeling a slight amount of cam over when a primer reaches bottom. It's hard to actually apply a measurement to this process since not all primer brands are exactly the same depth. But if I were to put a number to it, I would say a good .004" bellow the case head is what CCI's and Win has functioned 100% for me at. But other primer brands may require a bit deeper depth to bottom out in the pocket. This can be even more of a problem with primer cups that may be slightly thicker, in which case the primer may need a slightly more rigid reaction to the FP strike.

GS

kingmt
June 13, 2012, 06:17 AM
I agree with gamestocker. You need to seat the primers deeper. Most 9mm anymore has crimped pockets. You should consider swageing them.

Otto
Do you even use Tula primers? They are my favorite primers.

Hammerdown77
June 13, 2012, 08:30 AM
I had the same problem with my lot of Tula SPPs. Every magazine I'd have a couple that didn't fire. Even when primers were fully seated. This was in striker-fired guns. Can't recall I had one fail to ignite in my S&W 686, but I may just not be remembering.

Never had that problem with their LPP. I sold off my remaining Tula SPPs and bought Federal.

bds
June 13, 2012, 09:24 AM
Here's a comprehensive thread on why some of Tula SP primers failed to ignite - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=630512

Conclusion based on my testing is that Tula SP primers have harder primer cups than CCI SP/Tula .223/SR primers which are supposed to have harder cups and some Tula SP FTF primers won't ignite even after multiple strikes. Interestingly, so far they have all ignited in small primer pocket 45ACP cases using Sig 1911/RIA 1911/M&P45/PT145.

OTOH, I have yet to run into a Tula LP primer that failed to ignite.

ny32182
June 13, 2012, 09:44 AM
To summarize, Tulas are hard, and chances are your gun is just not striking them hard enough to light them 100%. If you have trigger jobs, you will probably need to go back to factory specs. If you do not, they are probably just not good for those guns.

I've run 25k of them in Glock and M&P, and only had a very small handful of light strikes, all in the M&P.

Jeff H
June 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
Quality control at Wolf/Tula is spotty.

Tula and Wolf are not the same company and in my experience, I don't find the QC spotty in either one.

As mentioned, the most likely cause is that they aren't seated all the way.

GLOOB
June 13, 2012, 01:10 PM
Tula and Wolf are not the same company...
Same source/manufacturer, though.

...and in my experience, I don't find the QC spotty in either one.
That's cuz they're just fine, most of the time. Personally, I shot 3k of the Tula SPP from two different lots without any problems, and then I had 10-12 duds in my last 1k. Seems like there are more complaints about Tulammo SPP on the forums, compared to the domestic brands.

And, FTR, I agree OP is not seating, fully. So I'm not counting his issues as a QC problem.


Conclusion based on my testing is that Tula SP primers have harder primer cups than CCI SP/Tula .223/SR primers which are supposed to have harder cups
This isn't what I've found, but I'm using Wolf 223 primers. Maybe the Tula 223 were made to a different specification. I've tried the Wolf 223 primers in a Glock and an FNX just for kicks. I had over 30% failures to ignite in both handguns.

kingmt
June 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
I think 10-12 is the lot that I have.

Uniquedot
June 13, 2012, 02:39 PM
I bought a case of them and they seemed fine in my 38's and 357's, but in the 9mm (pt111 pro) i used them in i had several FTF's. I also loaded a bunch in .380 acp and they were just fine with 0 FTF's (bersa thunder) so i loaded a bunch in 9x18 and again they were just fine. That Taurus 9mm never fails to fire with good ol American made primers though.

JLDickmon
June 13, 2012, 05:32 PM
how old is the pistol?

worn firing pin?

giggitygiggity
June 13, 2012, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the responses. I'll put a little more muscle and try seating them deeper. I'll stick with the CCI's after this bunch runs out as I haven't had any issues with CCI primers.

Also, the Sig is essentially brand new (made in 2012 with less than 500 rounds down the pipe). The Bersa is about 2 years old. I am certain the issue is not with the pistols.

Thanks for the responses. Hopefully the deeper seating does the trick until I can get the good CCI's.

GLOOB
June 13, 2012, 08:56 PM
And if Tula had an "isolated issue" sometime least year, it sure would have been nice if the company had acknowledged it and been able to disclose the potentially affected lot numbers. This sort of thing is a big part of quality control and is necessary in order to have confidence in this kind of product.

I had quite a bit of ammo loaded up with Tula primers when I started running into duds. I felt compelled to shoot up all my Tula-primered stock for plinking, even though some of it was loaded with painstakingly sorted brass and premium bullets. All the older stuff went bang. I'm 99% sure the current production is fine. It's obvious they know how to make primers. But I don't plan to see for myself. The savings aren't worth it for me, because it's not obvious to me that they know how to do quality control.

bds
June 13, 2012, 09:11 PM
GLOOB, I agree.

I found some Winchester SP/LP primers at last gun show at a good price so I stocked up and now I have enough for several years with a "peace of mind".

I will be using up the remainder of my Tula SP primers in 45ACP cases with small primer pockets for range practice loads as I have not experienced failures yet. :D

zxcvbob
June 13, 2012, 09:15 PM
All Wolf and Tula primers have been perfect for me except the Tula SPP's. I had used brass colored Wolf SPP's and really liked them. When I needed more, I was afraid to order Wolfs again because supposedly there was one bad batch of nickel-colored primers, about a year earlier (before Tula was ever sold here) with a high failure rate, and I was scared I would get some of the old ones. So I bought Tulas instead. Nickel colored, and a high FTF rate -- but that is mostly in a double-action revolver. If I seat them really hard, they work better. Tula and Wolf rifle primers and LPP's continue to work great.

I can still use the Tula SPP for plinking ammo, especially for 9mm because my Hi-Power has a ridiculously strong hammer spring. I won't buy them again, but I will continue to buy all their other primers. (the SR primers will work just fine in pistol cartridges)

And if Tula had an "isolated issue" sometime least year, it sure would have been nice if the company had acknowledged it and been able to disclose the potentially affected lot numbers. This sort of thing is a big part of quality control and goes a long way to restoring confidence in this kind of product.
They said it was an isolated issue, but my experience suggests otherwise. That's why they can't give lot numbers.

bds
June 13, 2012, 09:34 PM
All Wolf and Tula primers have been perfect for me except the Tula SPP's. I had used brass colored Wolf SPP's and really liked them. When I needed more, I was afraid to order Wolfs again because supposedly there was one bad batch of nickel-colored primers, about a year earlier (before Tula was ever sold here) with a high failure rate, and I was scared I would get some of the old ones. So I bought Tulas instead. Nickel colored, and a high FTF rate
This is only a theory but I was suspicious whether the old Wolf SP primers with harder nickel/silver cups were relabeled and sold as "Tul Ammo" :scrutiny:

I have read many "Tula" SP primer threads and only the nickel/silver colored SP primers were the culprits. Both Wolf and Tula LP primers I have experienced reliable ignitions with are bronze/brass colored.

If I see bronze/brass colored Tula SP primers, I would gladly try them out, but only if the price difference is "significant" from Winchester.

Jeff H
June 13, 2012, 10:09 PM
If I see bronze/brass colored Tula SP primers, I would gladly try them out, but only if the price difference is "significant" from Winchester.

I just checked my stash and I don't have anymore Tula SPP but I do have Tula 223Rem and LPP and they are both brass colored.

Of the loaded ammo I have, I think I only used Tula SPP in 9mm for a Ruger SR9 that has a reasonably strong striker spring so that may be a contributing factor.


Interesting thought to ponder: I load on a LCT. Maybe the reason I have never experienced any issues is because you pull the press handle 3-4 times for each round and consequently can seat the primer several times as well... I have heard that Russian primers are a smidge larger than US primers, but I have never measured them.

bds
June 13, 2012, 10:30 PM
Interesting thought to ponder: I load on a LCT. Maybe the reason I have never experienced any issues is because you pull the press handle 3-4 times for each round and consequently can seat the primer several times as well
Been there and done that on this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7810685#post7810685

Tula SP along with other brand primers were seated to typical .004" below flush and crush depth .008" below flush and Tula SP primers still resulted in FTF.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155085&stc=1&d=1324390089



More on seating primers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7813399#post7813399

For those wondering why I use .004" below flush as my reference primer seating depth, consider this:

I am averaging around .117"-.118" (with a few variations to .115"-.120") for primer pocket depths for small primer cases (9mm/40S&W). I am measuring .119" for Winchester/Magtech SP primer height and .118" for Tula/PMC SP primers (actual cup height without the anvil feet were same at .109" for Winchester/Tula SP).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155147&stc=1&d=1324480216

This means, depending on primer pocket depth variations, seating primer flush may not set the anvil against the priming compound. Use of .004" below flush is a reference mark for me. When I hand prime the cases, I do it by feel with a QC check by running my finger tip over the seated primer to ensure it is below flush. As I seat the primer, I will initially feel the primer/anvil feet hit the bottom of the primer pocket, then a slight more resistance as the anvil feet is pressed inside the cup and anvil is set against the priming compound.

Because there are variations in primer pocket depths (say .120" deep pocket with shorter .118" height Tula SP primer, to include the anvil feet), flush seating primers may not always ignite. Seating primers to .004" below flush ensures there are no high primers and anvils are properly set against the priming compound.

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 08:27 AM
bds
Maybe you are seating them to far. I don't measure. I just seat by fell & use my finger nail to confirm also.

bds
June 14, 2012, 09:39 AM
kingmt, the various primer testing done on the other thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=630512&page=2) was to demonstrate that I gave Tula SP primer a fair and objective assessment to identify why I experienced primer failures.

The .004" and .008" comparison was done in response to those that suggested that I did not seat the primer "deep" enough to set the anvil against the priming compound. I used the .008" below flush to ensure the anvil was set against the priming compound more than enough and compared with the proper seating depth of .004". BTW, Tula SP primers were also tested seated flush, .004" and .008" below flush with similar results (I even used a brand new G22 to rule out weak striker spring) so I attribute the FTF root cause to something else (my conclusion is harder primer cup - see bottom comparison picture on this post of CCI 400 SR and Tula SP primer cup indentations).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154597&stc=1&d=1323680311

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154678&stc=1&d=1323749923

Paper cups that seal the priming compound and different anvil tips
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154677&stc=1&d=1323749923


CCI and .223 military primers are supposed to have harder primer cups. The comparison picture below shows fired primers out of the same G22. Note that CCI 400 SR primer on the left shows shallow indentation and Tula SR/.223 primers shows deeper but still shallower indentation compared to Tula SP indentations.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154977&stc=1&d=1324243701

Two failed to ignite Tula SP primer indentations and two fired Tuia SP primer indentations.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155154&stc=1&d=1324481822


In the end, comparison testing with harder cup CCI primers and .223/SR primers indicated that Tula SP cup hardness along with other factors may be the underlying reasons why I am experiencing FTF. Comparison picture below of fired CCI 400 SR primer and failed to fire Tula SP primer shows similar indentation depth yet the CCI primer fired. Perhaps CCI primer's different priming compound, anvil tip shape/height and pre-set anvil feet length may have allowed the primer to fire even with the harder cup when Tula SP primer did not.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154980&stc=1&d=1324244321

bds
June 14, 2012, 09:49 AM
Oops, duplicate post.

Certaindeaf
June 14, 2012, 10:10 AM
bds did some good work there.

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 10:12 AM
If I remember I believe they didn't fire on a second strike ether. Can't remember if you tried the same case in a different gun thay had less failures tho.

bds
June 14, 2012, 10:25 AM
If I remember I believe they didn't fire on a second strike ether. Can't remember if you tried the same case in a different gun thay had less failures tho.
kingmt, yes the failed to ignite Tula SP primers did not fire on second, third and fourth primer re-strikes. I have shot the same loads in other pistols with similar results.

The only difference has been with 45ACP cases that have small primer pockets. So far, all the Tula SP primers have fired in Sig 1911, RIA 1911, M&P45 and PT145.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154941&stc=1&d=1324182525

Tula SP primer struck once with Glock 17 and three times with Sig 1911 removed from the Federal 45 case. Pink paper cup under the anvil clearly shows the priming compound did not ignite.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154942&stc=1&d=1324182525

jacksgd
June 14, 2012, 10:46 AM
.004 deep, .008 deep, not seating hard enough or soft enough. Bronz colored, nickle colored.

The debate goes on and on about Tulammo small pistol primers.

It is interesting that there never seems to be as much talk about problems with Winchester or CCI primers, etc.

I have tried their small pistol primers and had a high rate of FTF. I can not tell you the color any longer because the ones that I had remaining after the frustration of dealing with them were soaked in oil and disposed of.

It is quite obvious that there are some quality control issues at Tulammo in regards to their small pistol primers.

The Russians seem to have the same level of Quality control at their primer factories as the did at their Nuclear Power Plants!!

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 12:50 PM
Well I like to learn so I hope we keep talking about it. I thought this was what the forms was for.

I don't have a problem with Tula but mine are the bronze colored ones. I have had several FTF with CCI since you have never heard of it I'll bring it up. I don't know that it was the primers tho but several out of 3 different pack(100 count) all from the same case is all that I have ever had a problem with.

bbuddtec
June 14, 2012, 09:36 PM
I always run my ftf's through the chamber again after the mag. They've all ended up seating strikes/ 2nd time boom for me, and I consider my priming to be pretty well seated... oh well... :)

1SOW
June 14, 2012, 11:17 PM
I seat 9mm by press feel and visual inspection as I put the cartridges in 100ct MTM cases.
I can feel a primer bottom out on a turret press, just like a single stage. I bottom them all. Two have not fired in 30-40K reloads. One had a formula discoloration when I checked it, and long ago one was not quite seated fully and fired on the second strike.

JMO, The numbers of FTFs I continue read about with Tula & Wolf pistol primers shows why saving a few dollars does not make them acceptable for use. It's just not worth the higher potential for failures. I would not buy a new pistol that failed to fire intermittently. I won't use a reloading component that's likely to cause the same.

So there!:p

Certaindeaf
June 14, 2012, 11:41 PM
^
I'm about with you. I made the decision that were it to come to it, I'd rather save a dollar or fifty (think price differential) going hungry or something to make sure a certain chain of events is assured.

zxcvbob
June 14, 2012, 11:57 PM
JMO, The numbers of FTFs I continue read about with Tula & Wolf pistol primers shows why saving a few dollars does not make them acceptable for use. It's just not worth the higher potential for failures. I would not buy a new pistol that failed to fire intermittently. I won't use a reloading component that's likely to cause the same.

I won't buy the nickel-colored small pistols again. And I won't buy *any* SP's again that I don't know the color because they might be nickel. But having already bought 5000 of 'em, I can use them for practice and they will work great for that. In the right gun, they might even be reliable.

I just bought another 5000 Wolf rifle primers a couple of weeks ago. They are half the price (or less) of benchrest primers and work as good. Until they screw them up and don't make it right, then I'll quit buying them too and go back to Winchesters.

rfwobbly
June 15, 2012, 08:56 PM
I have several thousand Tula rifle primers that are fine. I also have a thousand Tula small pistol primers that are not firing on about 3% (3 out of every 100) cartridges. And seating is NOT the issue.

Like they said, Rusky quality is very spotty.

Otto
June 15, 2012, 09:19 PM
Hey BDS, you take great photos.

bds
June 15, 2012, 09:45 PM
Thank you!

You know what they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words"

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