February 20, 2004, 05:40 PM
I have done quite a bit of looking around (probably not enough yet) .. to try and ID the mould suitable for this bullet. It's a .430 mould ... 250 grain, Keith SWC. This is the last sample I can find ... it was ''squibbed'' into water long ago for slugging! It's a bit battered and was a reject casting in the first place.
I used to use it extensively years ago ... and it was excellent for my long range stuff (up to 300 yds) .. no gas check but this could still be driven successfully very hard when a good alloy used. There's a pic too of one of the few remaining loaded rounds I have left .... which some might see as over OAL .. it is! 1.710 instead of the oft quoted 1.610.
It was used solely in my Redhawk .. chambered perfectly ... and gave me more case capacity ... not that I went quite that hot! But in that configuration it worked incredibly well .... excellent bullet.
I really want to find the mould again if available and so a cheat here first .. anyone (Edward maybe?) ... seen, used or using this and can ID a mould # for me. I think it was a Lyman .. but really now I forget.
Just a long shot really (oops, punning again!). :p
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February 20, 2004, 05:54 PM
429421 I think, let me go check mine. I will correct the post if I am wrong.
EDIT: Mine is 'similar'. Mine is a Lyman 429421ER. The difference is mine has more of a square lube band profile. It looks to hold as much lube as yours. IIRC Keith was mad about one or the other, the round or square, but I can't remember which is the 'correct' design according to Keith. I think the round band is right.
Anyway, the bullet shape IS the 429421, and again IIRC, the design you have is from the early molds.
February 20, 2004, 05:58 PM
Damn H ... that does have a familiar ring to it ...
February 20, 2004, 06:01 PM
Lyman 429421 and is still made unless it was a hollow base, in which case it is a 429422 and no longer made. Quantrill
February 20, 2004, 06:02 PM
Quantrill filled in the blanks while I was editing. Thanks!
February 20, 2004, 06:04 PM
Nope, plain base.
H you Sir are a star, a scholar and a gentleman!! Thanks ever so much . it sounds ever more familiar that # ... great. I shall seak out same .. missed that bullet.
Sorry to use THR as a cheat but sorta felt sure someone would know it.
Oops .. didn't look properly at who posted and assumed it was H again ...... Quantrill ... same accolade to you Sir .. you both share the glory!:)
February 20, 2004, 06:17 PM
Hell! That last post got all screwed up ... sorry! ... but I think you guys get the drift! Must be the excitement of re-discovery! Buffalo Arms order coming up hopefully.
February 20, 2004, 06:26 PM
You are very welcome Chris.
OK, now we need someone to tell us which design was the original Keith bullet, round lube band or square?
February 20, 2004, 06:34 PM
No idea myself just how far back that design goes ... re its inception. But, my original mould (why did I EVER sell it .. :banghead: ) was purchased IIRC back in 1982, and is the round groove as I think the pic almost shows.
If new version is square cut I'm not too worried really. Mind you, I find it quoted a 245 grain .. my old one In pic) actually weighed in at 252 .. they were invariably plus on 250 but then my alloy must have had some effect.
On a sidenote ... not sure whether there is a thread in this or not ..... my old RCBS lubrisizer could probably do with something to heat it up .. tho my room temp is usually well adequate ........ but I know that it is less hard work when lube is not too cool. Saw a heater deal in ... Dylon Blue Press I think .... but seemed to expensive. Made me think tho .. any cheapskate way to warm the thing that's easy??
Wonder if pipe heat tape would work?
February 20, 2004, 07:17 PM
I used to place a lamp with a 100 watt bulb right up against the lube reservoir. This keeps the stuff soft enough even in chilly weather.
February 20, 2004, 07:21 PM
Sounds simple enough Johnny ... thx. Guess switch on a while before work begins would help of course.
Still pondering on this heat tape .... hmmm..
February 20, 2004, 07:37 PM
Better late than never..Yes Chris that looks just like my #429421 bullets and this is the one that Keith was mad about even though later on he mentioned that a 270 or 280g version may have been better.
The 245g weight was determined with Lymans #2 alloy but with straight WW's it falls out at 250-255 depending on lot of WW's. I love this bullet. It's great for just about anything from light to OMG. The only thing that's slightly troubling with it is when you load some 429421's and load some #429650's (the 300g GC Keith bullet) and fail to keep them properly labled or segregated from each other. It's the devil telling them apart from each other, the noses are identical. I have to look reeal close at the brass to tell them apart. A very faint line indicating bullet depth in case.
I'm lost on the round vs square lube band. My 429421 mould dates back to around late 60's early 70's as being when my dad bought it. Reasonable care has left it in close to 95% condition and it's still going strong. Good moulds they are.
On the cold lube thing...I size & lube in my basement and it's chilly down there. The lube is stiff at first (been using RCBS rifle lube of late) but I dont do anything to warm it. It get noticably softer after I do a few. I figured it was the heat of compression working and I just go with the flow. If it's really cold in your room maybe a hair dryer or a small elec heater on the bench for 10 mins or so before begining? I'd like to use the hard lubes myself but too cheap so far to shell out the 75 bucks or so for the heater. Heat tape would probably work ok too.
February 20, 2004, 07:54 PM
Better late than never Hey dude . glad you still dropped by .. always good to exchange bullet thoughts...:)
The weight factor .. yep, of course ... that'd explain that. I just eyeballed the 429650 mould I now have . indeed .. damn hard to tell at the front end!! Must remember to ID the cases when I'm loading to help make it easier.
Apart from the long range usefullness of that bullet .. it was I reckon the best ever I used (with the load at the time ... forget that without a dig) .. for tight grouping at 50 and 25 ... that was 7 1/2 bbl back then.
Been using a Lee bullet more recently but . to be honest it does not seem to cut it ... not like the 421's.
Your right with lubesizer yeah . I think the goo does ''work soften'' ... in fact I know it does. But having read that warmer and so softer does make for better adherance to grooves. I can think of times when things a tad cold and it was easy to touch lube in groove and sorta pull a chunk out!
I plan when I get some serious reloading under way . (and still way behind on that) .. to do quite a bit of testing with .429's and .452's .. try and find my ideal loads. I think a month at the range might get me up to speed, with all I have to do!:p
February 20, 2004, 08:02 PM
Midway sells the "Lyman Lube Sizer Heater" that is also drilled and tapped for the RCBS sizer for $35.95. It's #182-761 on pg 169 of their new all colour catalogue.
The bullet you pictured is also similar to the RCBS 44-245gr and the slightly larger gas checkable 44-300gr. 300! :what: Midway has either in a 2-cavity mould for 54.99.
February 20, 2004, 08:08 PM
Thx Bear ... well, that sounds more like it ... about half price of other one. Mind you .. brain cell is a'tickin ... have a feeling that heat tape just might do what I want ... there's about 4" or so of ''reservoir'' available for wrapping .... if I try it and it works I'll post accordingly.
But if I am electrocuted ... forget the report!:p :D
February 20, 2004, 09:00 PM
I think you hit on something there Chris! I've been lookin at both my sizers and I think heat tape would work. The round kind cause it's smaller than the wide flat kind which would interfere with the arms maybe. Bout 8 or 10 wraps just on the lower portion of tube below the ram guide. pulled tight and zip-tied in the back with a new hole in bench to dangle the cord through. Maybe finished off with a 2.5 or 3" dia piece of Armaflex pipe insulation.:) Fantastic idea. Me being the plumber dude too I know I got some heattape out there in the garage, and armaflex.
I just picked up another dipper on the way home from work today. Been puttin off that casting party long enough and I want to try out all those new moulds that guy gave me. If the sky holds this weekend that is. Now would be a good time to explore the poorman lube heater to be ready for my next batch of lube.
I think that Lee mould you're using may be the same of one that I haven't tried yet that I just got. It's a Lee #C429-240SWC 240g gas checked bullet. It couldn't replace the 429421 but'll be nice to have something different to shoot.
Casting is great and has a future. Twenty years from now we may look back and laugh, or we may be casting bullets from Franklin Mint Chess pieces.:uhoh: :D
February 20, 2004, 09:34 PM
Twenty years from now Hey!! I am sure I am well older than you .... but sure .. if I am around 20 yrs on I will be laughing I expect ... in amazement!
Let me know how the tape works if you try it soon .. wish I had some out in the old shop. Itching to try it the more I think on it!
Dipper? I still have my Lyman one but .... found my production rate improved using the Lee electric pot ... tho I premelt from ingots with a flame to fill pot and get quickly near to temp when kickin off a session.
On the heavy weight 44's .. I am going gas check .... those suckers are gonna fly!
February 21, 2004, 03:46 AM
Try that 300gr I mentioned above. Looks like it would be a real thumper. :evil:
February 29, 2004, 07:48 PM
I had to wait for the heattape plug that I didn't have but got it done now, but no hard lube. I gave it 6 wraps on the bottom portion, zippy tied it, snaked the wire thru a hole in the bench to be plugged in from below and wrapped it with that foam tape for a little insulation and astetics (?).
Had a little casting party last weekend and casted up around 1K bullets. I had a fresh stick of RCBS lube in so am trying to run myself out of that now so I can locate and try some hard lube. Where do you get the hard lubes?
February 29, 2004, 07:56 PM
And a shot of it before covering up with insultape. If it works with hard lube, I'll keep it & use it. If not, no mods to the sizer have been made so I'd just strip it off. There's no interference with the op arms so now if it'll just throw enough heat to soften the hard stuff. I'll let you know.
February 29, 2004, 08:24 PM
Aha! Looks good ... and as yet I am unsure where to get the hard lube. Funny tho ... did mine only the other day but have yet to evaluate it at all.
I am near ashamed to show mine ... yours is all pristine clean and neat! My old sizer is very messy .. corroded etc .. much of that from being used long ago in far from ideal conditions .. add to that my laziness in not doing a good strip and clean!
Mine is ''lashed up'' right now until I see what use it has ..... and I also used approx six turns round lower body ..... and a single taken higher up too ... and even now there is a tail left with the terminator connector.
After switching on I noticed detectable warmth relatively quickly . and so would expect it to be quite effective ... but no idea how long yet it'll take for the metal casting to come far enough up to temp to be useful. If it seems useable I will do a much neater wrap ... AFTER cleaning up the awful state of the sizer!!
Time will tell. ... so here is my fugly lash-up!! :D Even color balance is way off ... just a rushed ''snap''
March 1, 2004, 09:16 AM
but no idea how long yet it'll take for the metal casting to come far enough up to temp to be useful.
I was thinking about that. May have to turn it on the night before lubing. Shouldn't really matter, HT's pretty low ampdraw. I'll experiment and see once I locate the lube. Haven't tried yet really. Maybe tonight after work.
What's that hard lube called? Blue Angel seems to come to mind but not sure.
March 1, 2004, 11:57 AM
''Blue Angel''?? ... to be honest no idea!! Feel I should know but don't!:rolleyes:
My tape is I think rated 3W/ft ... so only pulling about 25mA .. very modest. Mind you, once a few turns there and if insulated a bit externally I'll reckon it'll build up like a heat pad does in a bed. I have dig meter with a thermo couple .. (if I can find latter) . and so may put that down inside with the lube and see what happens. Could be an hour or so might be adequate.
March 1, 2004, 12:26 PM
I just use a hair dryer, the one cast off by the wife since "it doesn't work anymore". Rather than clean the intakes of general blockages and give it back I kept it:evil: . I cleaned it out, it works like a champ, and everyone is happy.
It takes about a minute or a little less to get hard lubes to flow when both lubrisizer and lube are at 55* or so. I don't like the hard lubes nearly as well as my home brewed 'medium' lube, and the medium lube is flowing reasonably well in 30-45 seconds of heating the sizer. A little refresher heat up for 15-20 seconds every couple minutes keeps the sizer warm and the lube flowing. Waiting an hour for the commercial heater or heat tape is asking too much of me. I simply won't wait that long. When I get some time to do these things I want to do it NOW!!! The hair dryer gives me the option to be lubing and sizing in one minute or less from the time I decide to do it.
Thompson Blue Angel is what you guys are thinking of. It is quite commonly used on commercial hardcast bullets, as is Rooster Red and Blue. Meister uses Rooster, and it works well at moderate velocities though quite smokey. The TBA works better at hotrod speeds IME, but is a big smoker as well. Paco Kelly makes ( or made, I heard it is not available anymore) the best commercial lube out there that I have tried, he called it Apache Blue. From mild to wild it works period. LBT soft blue is supposed to be very good too but I have not tried it yet. Midway has the TBA in stock and at a good price.
I encourage you guys to cook up a batch of "Felix Lube" and try it. I made a personalized version of it and it works better than you would believe, and better than any commercial product you will find with the exception of the Apache Blue. It is also only a couple bucks for enough to last a LONG time. I spent about $20 and made enough to lube at LEAST 10K bullets, probably 15K with ease.
March 1, 2004, 01:56 PM
I encourage you guys to cook up a batch of "Felix Lube" and try it Thx H .. is there a thread link which deals with formulation etc?? I don't mind making stuff up if it's good.
March 1, 2004, 02:20 PM
Nevermind the fact that I have nothing to do with this thread except idle curiousity but I managed to find the Felix Lube recipe.
Felix Lube (http://www.castpics.net/RandD/felix_lube/felix_lube.htm)
The following is almost an exact copy of what was written previously. You can equal or surpass Veral's lube with beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, mineral oil, sodium stearate, castor oil, and paraffin. On the stove using a shallow pot, heat two tablespoons of baby oil (mineral oil). When starting to smoke, add a tablespoon of castor oil and raise to just below smoking (about 300 degrees) and continually stir for around an half hour. After the time is up, add slivers of Ivory soap (sodium stearate), making the slivers melt entirely by stirring one parcel before adding more. Use a razor blade to make the slivers, and saturate the mixture with the soap, but no more than a tablespoon's worth. Then add one tablespoon of lanolin. After mixing, add beeswax to make the final mixture per requirement. Add paraffin to the batch to make it a harder pan lube when beeswax is scarce. A special ingredient which impresses friends is Carnauba wax. It's not required to do the job, but it keep your barrel mirror bright after each shot. The next time you go to the cheese shop, pick a selection having a thick plastic wrapper. The Laughing Cow brand comes to mind. After enjoying the cheese, wash off the cover and mash up about a rounded teaspoon (not tablespoon) and melt this into your freshly made lube. Mix well....Now here comes a little more info: beeswax is the base, castor oil is the real lube, lanolin makes the lube sticky, stearate glues the mess together so it does not separate into components upon cooling, carnauba wax adds the shine, and paraffin is the ultimate hardener, to be used as a last resort...add more castor oil or lanolin to make the lube slicker for smaller bores and/or a winter lube....Always slick the barrel down with Hoppy's or other oily cleaner and then dry patch it with only one push-thru stroke before shooting...felix
March 1, 2004, 02:25 PM
Thx esheato ... that's great! :)
March 1, 2004, 02:52 PM
Chris, I cut my 'almost to the directions' Felix lube with a quality synthetic grease (lithium soap base, and fantastic EP properties). I mixed the grease and the lube half and half, then firmed the mix back up with some paraffin. It works REALLY good!!
March 1, 2004, 04:02 PM
The late Brother Keith designed the 429421 bullet with a square lube groove. He said it held more lube and was therefore better for heavy applications. He was always a bit put out with Lyman for using a rounded lube groove. The change was done to make it simpler to produce and the cast bullets fell out of the moulds easier.
Okay, I have to start casting again.....
March 1, 2004, 04:29 PM
page 172 of the new full-colour Midway catalogue has 34 different lubes listed.
March 1, 2004, 06:29 PM
page 172 of the new full-colour Midway catalogue has 34 different lubes listed. How right you are bear .. hadn't looked at that page before ....AND you counted them!:)
Be awful nice tho if there was a sorta ''tech section'' giving attributes of each... don't know over half of them!
March 1, 2004, 09:30 PM
The heattape has to be able to work. Think about it. The commercial heaters mount below the sizer and the heat rises. This heattape might just work better than a commercial unit. Can't wait to get some TBA and try it.
You can equal or surpass Veral's lube with beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, mineral oil, sodium stearate, castor oil, and paraffin.
Now this is interesting. I'm going to have to try this. Beeswax is the main ingrediant in wax rings for mounting / sealing toilets to the floor, very cheap. Anhydrous lanolin is at the pharmacy or medical outlet (I bet swager has some on hand too!). That orange wax that encases blue cheese is parrafin? Where would one get sodium stearate?
Thanks for the trivia Archie, I wondered about that. And thanks BluesBear for the source of lube.:)
March 3, 2004, 08:32 AM
Where would one get sodium stearate?
It's just Ivory Soap. (It floats)
March 3, 2004, 09:04 PM
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