Primer ignites in kinetic puller


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Ken13113
June 13, 2012, 11:45 PM
Earlier tonight I was loading some 45's and had a couple of errors that I needed to correct. I loaded the puller and on the third hit the primer pops! The primer was no longer in the pocket, the bullet was pulled and contained in the puller along with the powder. I am glad that the powder was not ignited and that I still have all the parts I started the day with. I was wondering if this has happened to any one else before? The reason for the puller was the primer was not fully seated in the pocket. Is it possible that the primer was able to move enough to activate it? I am fairly new to reloading and any advice would be appreciated.
Also, I have been a long time lurker and have enjoyed and learned a bunch from you guys already, THANKS!
-Ken

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zxcvbob
June 13, 2012, 11:51 PM
Were you using the puller's shellholder or did you use a reloading shellholder? I don't remember why it makes a difference. (Maybe it doesn't unless the primer goes off, then the cartridge is ejected vs. the puller blowing up if the powder ignites)

jmorris
June 14, 2012, 12:00 AM
This is a new one for me. Never have known anything like it, approaching 30 years of reloading and knowing many others with even more experience than I.

I have to wonder how you didn't ignite the powder. Did you seat a primer on top of a spent primer?

Ken13113
June 14, 2012, 12:17 AM
I was using the collet that comes with the puller. After looking at my puller closer I can see some gouges on the inside lower base where the cap screws down. I think those could be caused by the collet being used upside down either by myself or previously (I purchased the setup used). I don't think I inserted the round backwards in the collet but I am sure I'm not perfect so it is possible. Trying it now with no primer/powder I still can't figure out how the primer was hit even if the collet was backwards.

zxcvbob
June 14, 2012, 12:19 AM
I know this is a silly question, but I gotta ask it. Which face of the puller were you striking against the floor/anvil/whatever? The cap, or the other side?

MachIVshooter
June 14, 2012, 12:21 AM
Is it possible that the primer was able to move enough to activate it?

The primer itself moving would do nothing. But the anvil being able to go forward and then back would do it. If the primer wasn't fully seated, there's nothing to keep the anvil from coming out just like the bullet does; It must've had just enough conserved momentum on the rebound to ignite the compound.

I do have to ask, why did a case get charged and a bullet seated if the primer was hanging out?

ljnowell
June 14, 2012, 12:35 AM
I do have to ask, why did a case get charged and a bullet seated if the primer was hanging out?

Probably because it was a mistake, the main reason people use a bullet puller.

Ken13113
June 14, 2012, 12:42 AM
I don't think there are such things as silly questions when looking for an answer but I wasn't striking the primer end :). I don't think I could have primed on an old primer. I am using a D550 so if I missed a decap I would have missed a seating, crimp and powder on the other dies. I am thinking that I inserted the bullet backwards in the collet and the dome cap on the flat portion of the collet squeezed the rim enough the ignite the primer since it was not fully seated?? I have another round with the same primer seating issue so think I am going to soak that in oil and try the puller again with the collet backwards then check to see if the primer or primer pocked in distorted.

Pit4Brains
June 14, 2012, 12:57 AM
Do you still have the suspect primer? Where, if any, is the defect on the primer. Primers need a solid hit to the center in normal circumstances...
If the bullet was on its way out or already out, and the powered was following suit, then even if the cap ignited it, I'de bet you'd have a flash in the puller and maybe some shattered and burnt plastic, and your hand still attached. At bit shaky and well behind your head, but attached..

kelbro
June 14, 2012, 01:11 AM
Why didn't you just re-seat the primer?

The rounded part of the collet faces OUT of the puller, I believe.

Makes you glad you wear eye protection when seating primers or pulling bullets, doesn't it?

jim243
June 14, 2012, 01:15 AM
Here's a crazy theory, it wasn't the force of the blow, but a static charge that set off the primer. Are you hitting the plastic hammer on the carpeting of a floor???


Jim

zxcvbob
June 14, 2012, 01:17 AM
The primer is in a pretty good Faraday Shield, doncha think? :) (static spark would go around it instead of thru it)

higgite
June 14, 2012, 02:07 AM
Deleted

Pit4Brains
June 14, 2012, 02:41 AM
Did the primer actually ignite or just "pop" out of the casing?

Pit4Brains
June 14, 2012, 02:50 AM
have another round with the same primer seating issue

Stop there. Troubleshoot the priming issue. Cut the remaining cartridges with a hand held (hacksaw) instead of pulling bullets.
Just balance the cost of injury to the cost of some brass, bullet, and powder.

Otto
June 14, 2012, 03:40 AM
I see that joined the forum today and this is your first post....welcome.
Do you happen to have any photos of the mishap?

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 09:12 AM
What kind of primers? How high were they? Did you buy a lottery ticket? Will you pick the numbers for mine?

jmorris
June 14, 2012, 10:21 AM
I think that if you were unlucky enough to ignite a primer using a bullet puller, I would forget about trying to further seat a primer into a loaded case and/or cut into a case. Can't be more than a quarter your throwing away. Cheap compared to an emergency room visit.

homatok
June 14, 2012, 01:57 PM
To deal with the next similar cartridge: Take the die out of the press. Put the cartridge into the shell holder and insert it into the press ram. Raise the ram until the bullet protrudes above the press (through the die-hole). Place some type of protection on top of the press to preserve the threads and grab the bullet with pliers. Lower the ram to remove the bullet, dump out the powder and then either seat the primer deeper or remove it using the de-capping die. Wear galsses and gloves!

rcmodel
June 14, 2012, 02:02 PM
I am glad that the powder was not ignited I'm not sure I'm buying this.
If the primer fired in the puller, it would have ignited the powder charge, either before or after the bullet came out of the case.

rc

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 02:24 PM
Depends on the powder. For a 45 I was thinking the same thing but I have some that I doubt would light outside of the case. I can't even get it to burn very well with a lighter stuck to it.

sansone
June 14, 2012, 03:49 PM
never seen this, but not doubting your story. Glad your body parts are all intact

Ken13113
June 14, 2012, 05:29 PM
I just looked everything over again and discovered something else that could helped cause this. The primer pocket of the case looks a little different. The case "FC 96" head stamp is federal brass with a crimped primer. That would explain the primer seating. I went through the rest of my brass and found two other cases and tossed them. I am a little upset with my self for not noticing this during the loading as the primer would have been hard to press in even partially. I am still going to try and seat a primer in an empty case and try it again in the puller just to regain my confidence in using it. I think my lesson learned is a couple compounding mistakes can cause big problems. I consider myself lucky to learn the hard way WITHOUT injury.

kingmt
June 14, 2012, 06:57 PM
You'll shoot your eye out!

JK. No way you will be able to get it to happen again.

MachIVshooter
June 14, 2012, 07:57 PM
I'm not sure I'm buying this.
If the primer fired in the puller, it would have ignited the powder charge, either before or after the bullet came out of the case.

Eh, there's a good 3" between the back of the case and the bottom of the puller, plus a .45 caliber bullet will cover most of the powder laying at the nose of the puller. It's plausible.

Garage Dog
June 14, 2012, 08:41 PM
This is scarey. One of my pals at the gun range was telling of the exact same thing happened to one of his friends a few weeks ago. Primer went off while using a kinetic puller, did not ignite the powder, however it discolored the powder. Not sure what cal it was. I will find the particulars and post back what I find out. What brand of primer were you using?

My friend was also telling me of an issue of someone who was extremely experienced dropped a primer tube and they ALL went off severely damaging his arm!!! This was about 5 or 6 weeks ago.

jgh4445
June 14, 2012, 10:42 PM
If the OP was using a 500 like he said, how did he advance the plate with a primer not fully seated? It keeps mine from turning when I do that...maybe its a question of how far the primer was sticking out huh? I've heard of primer detonations (well,one) when using a shell holder instead of the collet, but never before with the collet.

SlamFire1
June 14, 2012, 11:05 PM
Why not?

We all have had insensitive primers, primers that would not go off or took a couple of strikes to go off.

So why don't people believe in "sensitive" primers?

Primer manufacturers make primers and they test between the lot to see if the lot will ignite between “All Fire” and “Non Fire”. These standards used to be based on dropping a weight on the primer. The all fire limit is when all primers ignit and it represented the greater drop distance. The none fire limit was the minimum drop distance where no primers ignited.

George E. Frost, in his book “Ammunition Making”, provides a good description and procedure for calculating the sensitivity numbers in a primer test. Of interest, the H – 2S (two standard deviations), the All Fire limit, means that 4 primers in 900 would be expected to fire, and H + 5S , the none fire limit, means 3 in 10, 000, 000 primers are expected to misfire and the lot will be accepted.

Even at the lowest drop level, there is a probability of ignition.

So why don’t people believe in sensitive primers? The evidence is all around us, slamfires in gas guns, primers going off in kinetic impact tools, primers igniting in priming tools.

When it comes to sensitive primers the shooting community is all “La, La, La, La”

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/Hearnoevillady.jpg

Lost Sheep
June 14, 2012, 11:22 PM
Earlier tonight I was loading some 45's and had a couple of errors that I needed to correct. I loaded the puller and on the third hit the primer pops! The primer was no longer in the pocket, the bullet was pulled and contained in the puller along with the powder. I am glad that the powder was not ignited and that I still have all the parts I started the day with. I was wondering if this has happened to any one else before? The reason for the puller was the primer was not fully seated in the pocket. Is it possible that the primer was able to move enough to activate it? I am fairly new to reloading and any advice would be appreciated.
Also, I have been a long time lurker and have enjoyed and learned a bunch from you guys already, THANKS!
-Ken
Thanks for asking our advice and welcome to the forum.

Have you contacted the maker of the bullet puller? Long shot, but they might have some constructive input.

Repeating a couple of posts, I have heard that using the Press' shell holder in a kinetic bullet puller can set off a primer (though, I cannot see how). Perhaps a high-seated primer could hit parts of the collet and be set off.

I have, on occasion, in my younger days, (re-)seated a primer that was too high, after charging the case with powder I recognize now that it is generally a bad idea. Powder granules can fall through the flash hole and get jammed up against the primer anvil. Pressing the primer and anvil further will squash the powder granule. I have no idea if that could set off the priming compound, but I don't want to be the one to find our, either. I am curious, but not THAT curious.

When a primer goes off in a case without being contained by a breechface, it can back out of the primer pocket. Even when chambered, if there is insufficient pressure to jam the case's base against the breechface (as in those shooters who use wax bullets, fired without gunpowder-primer only) primers back out. Wax bullet shooters generally enlarge the flash hole to cure this.

I am having a hard time picturing the collet from your description. Can you take close-up pictures (use your camera's "Macro" setting) and post a couple?

Thanks

Lost Sheep

Lost Sheep
June 14, 2012, 11:27 PM
Stop there. Troubleshoot the priming issue. Cut the remaining cartridges with a hand held (hacksaw) instead of pulling bullets.
Just balance the cost of injury to the cost of some brass, bullet, and powder.
I would rather use a tubing cutter. Only a few dollars. Does not create a lot of friction, or filings.

Responding to another post "Just toss them".

I would never toss live ammunition, or even live primers. Your local hazardous waste will generally not charge for taking small amounts of such items and your local police generally have disposal procedures for their dud ammo. I am sure they would not turn you away.

Using oil to disarm primers does not always work. Primers are sealed with a varnish or shellac like substance. It isn't 100% effective at protecting the priming compound, but no penetrating oil is 100% effective at getting through, either.

Lost Sheep

1SOW
June 14, 2012, 11:44 PM
I have no reason to doubt the OP, but it sure is strange. Is it possible the hammer "cap" was not screwed on enough to hold the collet in place. Could this cause a 'bounce' against the top of the hammer strong enough to detonate a high primer after the bullet and powder separated? Maybe so.
In 9mm, I use FED SPP exclusively for it's light strike characteristics due to using a minute amount of Nitro-glycerin in the formula.
When I first got my chrono, I had to hammer over 300 cartridges that didn't quite make power factor. Since then there have been periodic screw-ups that keep me proficient with the kinetic hammer. The endgrain on my 4x4 anvil looks like a cereal bowl.

Used correctly, I believe the kinetic hammer is safe; but I do wear eye protection.

I would break them down with the hammer, being careful everything is assembled and tightened properly. BTJM.

GW Staar
June 15, 2012, 01:57 AM
I think the answer is simple.

Either you had a dud primer or you had a little biddy angel in that case who put his thumb in the flash hole. Either way your life was saved. :D Count your blessings, and don't expect such fortunate circumstances next time.

Jim Watson
June 15, 2012, 02:28 AM
I would dismiss it as a freak incident and motor on.
A few twists with a chamfer reamer after decapping will handle the primer pocket crimp if you only have a few; no need to waste a case made at taxpayer expense.


I would never toss live ammunition, or even live primers. Your local hazardous waste will generally not charge for taking small amounts of such items and your local police generally have disposal procedures for their dud ammo. I am sure they would not turn you away.

I have a good amount of unreliable ammunition due to fire hose water. Nobody hereabouts wants to fool with it. The local waste management's idea of hazardous waste is dead batteries, and the PD EOD does not want to fool with it. So I just trash the occasional unshootable, unsalvageable round. I haven't heard of a garbage volcano at the local landfill yet. The big batches I am gradually pulling down for the bullets and brass. Phew.

In 9mm, I use FED SPP exclusively for it's light strike characteristics due to using a minute amount of Nitro-glycerin in the formula.

I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal. Nitroglycerine? I always thought it was due to a different grade of lead styphnate; basic instead of neutral.

When I first got my chrono, I had to hammer over 300 cartridges that didn't quite make power factor.

When I did that, I got 300 rounds of practice with 5% less recoil. Big deal.

Otto
June 15, 2012, 02:49 AM
I'm not sure I'm buying this.
If the primer fired in the puller, it would have ignited the powder charge, either before or after the bullet came out of the case.

There's an explanation for that. The primer was installed upside down.
That could account for the detonation and why the powder was left untouched.

Jasper1573
June 15, 2012, 11:06 AM
I have an RCBS impact bullet puller that I have safely used for a couple of years; however, I believe that I remember somewhere in the instructions that the user is warned against using the tool with a high primer...probably for the very reason that was cited in an earlier comment...that possibly the primer moved during the impact and cause the primer anvil to strike the compound and POP!

If anyone has their instructions, can you please verify that my memory is correct? I can't find my instructions.

By the way, RCBS has discontinued their kinetic hammer-type bullet puller, so directions/warnings aren't avbl on their web site either.

1SOW
June 16, 2012, 02:31 AM
Jim Watson I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal. Nitroglycerine? I always thought it was due to a different grade of lead styphnate; basic instead of neutral.

You can check on the "MSDS" page for Fed SPPs. Their light strike ability comes from both a fairly soft case and the older formula they use for the primer compound which may also be as you say, and a "Minute" amount of NG. The other major primer manufacturers don't use it according to their MSDS pages. Sorta like a double-base powder.

I don't use Federals in 9mm because handbook loads give scary flat cratered primers. Other brands come out looking normal.

My 9mm Sig 239 with a 3.6" bbl and using a 124gr G.D. load is at 1200 FPS using Vit n340, and the Fed primers "may" be just very slightly flatter. This load stretches the reload data a skosh. Never got a cratered flattened primer.

For my lightly sprung gun, Fed SPP is the best primer.

parker51
June 16, 2012, 04:41 PM
I have an RCBS impact bullet puller that I have safely used for a couple of years; however, I believe that I remember somewhere in the instructions that the user is warned against using the tool with a high primer...probably for the very reason that was cited in an earlier comment...that possibly the primer moved during the impact and cause the primer anvil to strike the compound and POP!

If anyone has their instructions, can you please verify that my memory is correct? I can't find my instructions..

Here's a link to the instructions. It does state that this tool should not be used on rounds with high primers.

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/PowerPull_BulletPuller.pdf

By the way, RCBS has discontinued their kinetic hammer-type bullet puller, so directions/warnings aren't avbl on their web site either.

Just curious where you heard this as you can still order them on their web site.

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3677&route=C15J041

hentown
June 17, 2012, 10:46 AM
Why didn't you just re-seat the primer?


Now there's a Darwin Award contender!!

Trent
June 17, 2012, 11:23 AM
How in the hell did the primer not ignite the powder and make a kaboom?

kingmt
June 17, 2012, 11:54 AM
If you don't know what your talking about why waste time saying it. Seating a good primer isn't going to do anything. If your scared of it don't do it but just because you don't know about something doesn't make the other person wrong.

jcwit
June 17, 2012, 12:37 PM
Reseating a live primer in a loaded round is not a wise option to persue. IMO--YMMV

Trent
June 17, 2012, 12:54 PM
The reason seating a live primer in a loaded round is a bad idea is you don't KNOW if something caused the primer not to seat properly in the first place - e.g. obstruction.

You squeeze a primer down on an obstruction, guess what happens next?

Not something you want to happen in a loaded round that you are right next to.

popper
June 17, 2012, 05:52 PM
Solve the problem by ditching the hammer puller and use your press and pliers to pull the bullet.
Use a short piece of PVC pipe to space the pliers or wire cutter from the shell holder. You can then investigate the problem fully and fix it. You have to destroy 100 bullets to equal the cost of the puller.

kingmt
June 17, 2012, 06:24 PM
You guys do what you fell secure with. I fix them on a ram prime. There is nothing to go bang. Even if it did it wouldn't kill you. It would be had on your eyes if they wern't covered.

I take a much biger risk when I leave for work.

rcmodel
June 17, 2012, 06:29 PM
Solve the problem by ditching the hammer puller and use your press and pliers to pull the bullet.If the primers sticking out that far, how are you going to get in a shell holder to use pliers & a press?

My personal opinion is, finish seating it.
And if you can get it out of the shell holder pull it with a hammer puller.

Your chances of getting hit with falling Russian space junk is much greater then a primer going off in a hammer puller, and harming you if it did..

rc

tightgroup tiger
June 17, 2012, 09:41 PM
In my foolish youth I hit a primer with a hammer to see what would happen. It was deftening! My ears rang for a couple days. (Inside a concrete building)

Just put a primed shell in a pistol with no powder or bullet and take it outside and fire it, you'll find out how load they are.

Are you sure the primer detonated? Or did it pop out of the pocket? If the primer was upside down and it detonated, you would not be able to hear, their would have been a big flash, and it wouldn't have come out the case.

I'm leaning towards what RC said.

jcwit
June 17, 2012, 10:30 PM
In my foolish youth I hit a primer with a hammer to see what would happen. It was deftening! My ears rang for a couple days. (Inside a concrete building)

Just put a primed shell in a pistol with no powder or bullet and take it outside and fire it, you'll find out how load they are.

Are you sure the primer detonated? Or did it pop out of the pocket? If the primer was upside down and it detonated, you would not be able to hear, their would have been a big flash, and it wouldn't have come out the case.

AAhhhh come on. Done it many many times, both in an enclosed garage, in the basement, and outside. Ya they go bang, but my ears hardly ring even for a few minutes. Did it the first time 62 years ago.

Yes, I now wear hearing aids but mainly from operating a pin router making custome van parts for 10/15 years out of Red Oak. Then operating a CNC Router for the same items. That router bit in Red Oak really screams.

Jasper1573
June 17, 2012, 10:34 PM
Reference Parker51 comment above...I truly don't know where I saw it, but when I googled it, I found some place that said it was "discontinued."

Apparently I misread the cite...thanks for the correction, and the verification that the RCBS kinetic bullet puller shouldn't be used with high primers.

tightgroup tiger
June 17, 2012, 10:45 PM
Done it many many times

I only did it once, that was enough for me.

Jasper1573
June 17, 2012, 10:48 PM
Your chances of getting hit with falling Russian space junk is much greater then a primer going off in a hammer puller, and harming you if it did..


Well, having spent 20 years in Military Service, apply Murphy's Law...if it can go wrong,it will," and in other words, if you have to think about it too long, then you probably ought not do it.

While I respect the opinion of those with greater experience than mine, I saw many an airmen buried before their time because they thought they could take shortcuts or do something unconventional because they were that much better than everyone else.

Eventually, it will catch up with you.

I almost lost a finger a few years ago by getting too close to a table saw without gloves...reseating a primer in a loaded round is substantially more dangerous than a table saw. While you may lose a finger or hand to a table saw, a bullet into the gut will take you out for eternity...evaluate your relationship with our Father in heaven, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before you engage in such death defying stunts.

jcwit
June 17, 2012, 11:20 PM
I almost lost a finger a few years ago by getting too close to a table saw without gloves...

You do say to use gloves while operating a table saw, right?

Just for those out there who might do this it is extremely dangerous, as is wearing gloves while using a drill press or operating a lathe, or wearing loose clothing while operating power machinery.

One of the tool & die shops I worked at if caught operating power machinery wearing gloves was a quick way out the door, no second chance, you're gone.

Now back to high primers, IMO seating a high primer is a No, No. More than likely it wouldn't go off, but, and that 3 letter word should answer the question.

OrdellRobbie
July 16, 2012, 10:12 PM
I read through the posts quickly so maybe someone already mentioned it but, my old man always taught me to look through the flashhole after taking brass out of the tumbler. I dont know if it has to do with brass or my redneck way of not measuring how much polish i put in the tumbler but sometimes i have corn cob media in 70% of the flash holes that i have to push out. I wonder if u had a kernel stuck in the flashhole keeping the primer from seating(and not detonating the powder when it went off). The hammer could have caused the primer to drive deeper into the pocket where the kernel would be pushing on the center of the anvil.

If your still with me youre probably saying yeah if the moon and the stars align....

I here ya. I dont know if a walnut or cob media would be strong enough either but im interested if yall more experianced loaders think its possible

jcwit
July 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
Robbie, if you use the media I providing a link to the problem of media in the flash holes will no longer exist. Its small enough to not get clogged in the primer pocket or the flash hole, comes shipped to your door for little less than $33.00. Whats not to like.

http://www.drillspot.com/products/521055/econoline_526040g-40_40_lbs_blast_media

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