Is 6 Shots Enough?


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BluedRevolver
June 13, 2012, 11:07 PM
would this be enough?:

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?

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memphisjim
June 13, 2012, 11:14 PM
Sure but you can always grab a couple 33 rounders for the glock

jeepnik
June 13, 2012, 11:17 PM
There is the school of though that five is enough. And for decades six was enough for law enforcement. In addition, eight was plenty for decades, as well, with the 1911.

The real question is, are you comfortable with what you carry?

My personal opinion, as that seems to be what you want, is that the six in the revolver with a couple of moon clips as reloads will more than suffice. So unless you think you may want to arm someone else, the glock is just extra weight.

BluedRevolver
June 13, 2012, 11:18 PM
Well if I ever had to draw I'd probably grab for the revolver first, with the Glock incase I need more ammo.

Some of y'all say that statistically you'd only need 6 or less shots but "Murphy's Law" can require more with multiple attackers or a lot of misses. I agree with that. Would 6 shots plus 11 on a re-draw be enough? Or would the time for drawing the Glock make it impractical?

MCgunner
June 13, 2012, 11:18 PM
Carry my 5 shot .38 all the time, so you KNOW what I think about the question.

mljdeckard
June 13, 2012, 11:22 PM
I carry a reload for my 1911, but it's more to clear a malfunction than to have more shots. If I'm in a situation that 8+1 can't solve, it is unlikely that more will help. (I should have brought a rifle.)

HGM22
June 13, 2012, 11:42 PM
It really depends on what a likely encounter would look like. I imagine most possible encounters would be very short, and that most likely the assailants will be trying to run away as soon as they realize you are armed; they likely won't want to sit around and get in a big long gun fight if they can help it. That being said, anything can happen. Myself, I'd feel comfortable, especially having two weapons (in case the primary goes down). Perhaps a speed strip or extra mag would make you feel better? Maybe leave it nearby (car, desk drawer, etc.) if you can so you don't have to carry so much stuff.

*Note that this is all my own opinion and I have seen very little data to back it up; it is mere speculation.

beatledog7
June 14, 2012, 12:29 AM
Multiple attackers from different directions will get to you if you have 100 rounds.

Impureclient
June 14, 2012, 12:54 AM
It wouldn't be enough if you had a whole swat team covering you or are you supposed to be playing the good guy in this scenario? Forget the handguns too, carry an Uzi with a high cap. magazine.
You also need to give more details of the situation like if you have superpowers, what the opposing forces are armed with(maybe they're just undead), what time your mom wants you home, etc.

J/K :D...Stay safe and remember once one bites you, you will eventually turn to ;)

fallout mike
June 14, 2012, 01:02 AM
Nope.

smitty704
June 14, 2012, 01:30 AM
Not IMO. I feel the more the better. I carry a G19 with an LCP as a BUG. But I am still in the market for a mag carrier to carry an extra G19 mag.

JEB
June 14, 2012, 01:55 AM
honestly, i think the 6 rounds by itself would be enough. with the addition of the g26 you should have plenty for any situation. here lately i have been carrying a g27 (10 rounds) with an LCP (7 rounds) as backup (more of an "always gun" rather than an actual backup). sometimes i carry just the LCP.

Jim Watson
June 14, 2012, 02:02 AM
Six HITS would be enough in nearly any civilan encounter.

If I wanted more SHOTS I would just carry the auto and whatever number of magaznes seemed suitable instead of humping a heavy .45 revolver; much as I like the type.

CZguy
June 14, 2012, 02:23 AM
Multiple attackers from different directions will get to you if you have 100 rounds.

True, but I'm counting on the Claymores taking out at least a few of them. :D

All joking aside, five is enough, if you can shoot well. Twenty five isn't enough if you can't. :uhoh:

jimbo555
June 14, 2012, 08:04 AM
How do you keep your pants up? For me I would make the g26 the primary and get a light pocket 380 for a backup.

Dean1818
June 14, 2012, 09:03 AM
Odds would seem to favor you dramatically that 5 would be enough

Factor one

SD scenarios almost never happen, especially if you dont put yourself in dangerous situations. Sort of like getting hit by lightning as odds.

Factor two

I have read that a great many SD scenarios that do happen, end immediately when a weapon is presented and no shots are fired. The BG runs away. I imagine this happens a great deal, and isnt publicized as much as a shooting

Factor three

Some studies point to the vast majority of SD shootings involve 1-3 shots from the person being attacked

Factor four

Carry a reload, this will give you 10 rounds...... Practice , practice, you will be fine

If you puts these factors together and think defensive and not offensive........ The dramatic odds are you wont need the extra rounds

Should you jump in and be a hero for the $28.37 at the cash register being robbed at
the Seven-11?

Let me say, that unless an innocent is directly in a true threat............. I am not playing the hero.

Do I want to start slinging lead at a BG with him shooting at me as well? What if an innocent is
killed BEHIND me, because I started firing when i didnt really need to, and the BG was a bad shot??? (do you think most BGs go to the range to practice accurately?)

I am NOT seeking a gunfight. That mentality may keep someone from getting killed.

My weapon is LAST resort, when all else fails.

Life is almost always not like TV, with protracted gunfights.

Could there be a case where 5 isnt enough? Yes..... But unless you are an LEO, you LIKELY will
never, ever, ever, need it

I believe the mentality of the CCW will also contribute to rounds fired and the outcome of the encou ter

mgmorden
June 14, 2012, 09:21 AM
My normal carry gun (LCP) only carries 7 rounds and I don't usually carry a reload, so my answer is "usually".

Really though my decision to carry that limited number of rounds is pretty much just based off of ease of concealment. Its pretty warm down here most of the year so small guns are what I can conceal. For the short period of the year that I can wear a little more and conceal a little more, I've settled on carrying a CZ-82 for the time being. 13 in the gun plus 12 more in another mag on my belt is a lot more comforting.

That said, I am strongly considering looking at a Ruger SR9c as an alternate to that. Shouldn't be any harder to conceal and I'll have a more powerful 11 rounds in the gun plus 17 more on the belt in the full-sized mag.

FoMoGo
June 14, 2012, 09:31 AM
I commonly carry 1 or 2 Combat Masters.
6+1 each.
Even with one of them I never feel undergunned.
I also carry a taurus 445 5 shot .44 spl.
Never feel undergunned with that either.


Jim

Sam1911
June 14, 2012, 09:31 AM
Personally, I'd go for the easier to carry Glock and a spare mag. Leave the awesome 625 for range duty. That way you've got more shots on tap (in the astronomically unlikely event that you need it), and you'll be much less obstructed by all the extra weight on your belt.

I love revolvers and carry a 629 fairly frequently. But the question you're asking is very much like, "I've got a 1950 John Deere model B tractor that I drive 40 miles to work every day. Do you think I should tow my Honda Civic along behind it in case it runs out of gas some day?"

Gordon
June 14, 2012, 09:51 AM
I usually carry 6 shots in this or an Officer's Lightweight model or an AMT pocket .45
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/010-7.jpg

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 10:56 AM
How many shots you think is enough depends entirely on how many attackers you expect and how many shots per attacker you expect to need. Personally, I'm not comfortable with anything under 8.

Deltaboy
June 14, 2012, 11:10 AM
Got a gun and you can hit with it 98% of the time then 5 or more is enough. I carry a 38 and 10 rounds 5 in the gun and 5 more in my pocket. I just watch where and when I go and work hard to be sure I don't get into any jams.

scaatylobo
June 14, 2012, 11:23 AM
I was LEO so I still tend to carry that which was the same as my duty/off duty gun.

That also means I carry a BUG 90% of the time.

Envision your worst case scenario and see if your prepared for that.

Also remember that when a revolver was THE gun,the officers in NYC carried a 'NYC' reload - meaning 2 guns instead of a fast/slow reloading.

That is where the expression "NYC" reload comes from [ also called a NY RELOAD ].

Having been WAY to close to needing a gun,and carrying way too small a gun = I now choose to be as armed as my "worst case scenario" allows the answer.

And dont ever forget "Murphys law" that your survival tool will take a dump at THE worst possible time.

Meaning when you are in a life and death scenario.

Dean1818
June 14, 2012, 11:32 AM
I spoke with someone who actually concealed carried FOUR pistols every day.

That is his right, and his choice

But..........

I personally choose to not live that way.....

marb4
June 14, 2012, 11:50 AM
would this be enough?:

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?
Not if there are 7 attackers.

Serious question, does anyone know what the average number of shots fired in an SD encounter is? My guess is that the number is pretty low.

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 12:15 PM
does anyone know what the average number of shots fired in an SD encounter is? My guess is that the number is pretty low.

I've heard recently that since the chance you'll have to defend yourself is so low to begin with, you're so far to the right of the bell curve that the stats don't really matter.

Teachu2
June 14, 2012, 12:39 PM
Back when I first started carrying, I was comfortable with a 2" M66, no reloads. Today, the streets are tougher and I'm older. I've progressed to a 1911 with a reload, and now am transitioning to a G30 with two reloads. I carried a BUG when on-duty LEO, but no longer. If one won't get it done, two won't either. The two reloads are really just useful ballast to balance the load - probably.

Chances are 6 is enough, but chances are you won't need a gun at all. As a wise old guy told me years ago, "If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly!".

Teachu2
June 14, 2012, 12:48 PM
I've heard recently that since the chance you'll have to defend yourself is so low to begin with, you're so far to the right of the bell curve that the stats don't really matter.


Stats don't matter much to victims, either. One in four billion sounds great - unless you're the One.

More ammo can buy you time - and time is on your side in defensive situations. Once shots are fired, the BGs are looking for the fastest way to be somewhere else.

sirgilligan
June 14, 2012, 12:57 PM
Is 16 too many?
Is 10 too many?
Is 8 too many?

Is 6 better than nothing?
Is 5 better than nothing?
Is 2 or 1 better than nothing?

It is possible that there is never too many.
So, six is better than five, IMO.

Taroman
June 14, 2012, 12:59 PM
Five plus a reload:
http://www.hverovhe.com/nyrrev.jpg
Should suffice except in the case of the coming ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.

Warp
June 14, 2012, 01:02 PM
I try to remind myself that the average hit ratio for defensive handgun uses, across private citizens and law enforcement, is only about 20%. That would be 1 hit per 5 round revolver, for example. And as we all know handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule, it may take 1, 2, 3, or more GOOD hits before an attacker is stopped. Even if you shoot/hit twice as effectively as the average that's still only a couple of hits out of 6 rounds (going by title here, not the two listed in OP). This, obviously, suggests that more is a pretty good idea.

But then the "average" defensive gun use (only counting when shots are fired) is, what, 3 rounds or fewer?

Unfortunately I have a very strong suspicion that the vast majority of people who think a 5 shot snub is enough to handle multiple attackers are being a bit optimistic in their assumptions.

tarosean
June 14, 2012, 01:04 PM
Serious question, does anyone know what the average number of shots fired in an SD encounter is? My guess is that the number is pretty low.

If you look around the "stats" say it's between 1-2...

skeeziks
June 14, 2012, 01:20 PM
The question is "would this be enough?" Enough for what...?
In other words, the question is being asked about a scenario that hasn't yet happened. There is no Yes or No answer to this question. If it ever comes to you having to draw & fire, maybe you'll only need 1 shot...or maybe you'll need 16!
I'm either carrying 6 rnds. of 45 acp. in a revolver or I'm carrying 7 of 'em in a P220. But alot of the time I just have my J-frame snub in a pocket holster. It's just not that easy to conceal the N-frame or the Big Sig while wearing shorts and a tank top down here in Florida.

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 02:15 PM
Is there a simplified term for this concept?

Since any defense or level of preparation can be defeated, you need to prepare and train for what you consider to be the reasonable maximum threat you can prepare for.

For example, you may prefer to have a minimum of 8, but only carry 5 or 6 when wearing shorts+tank in Florida because you feel that comfort in the hot climate is constant, while an attack is unlikely.

Or you may recognize the possibility of 11 terrorists armed with MP-5s taking over your office building to take hostages (in which case a Beretta 92 is the ultimate choice), but also recognize that if anyone comes in at work, its most likely going to be 1 disgruntled employee or a couple of street thugs looking for access to the safe. Or you may expect to be jumped by the mob at any time and constantly carry around an AR.

What do you expect to need to defend against, and what fits the parameters of that defense. That is what you need to look at. Long sentence for what I wish (and maybe there is) there was a simpler phrase for.

Godsgunman
June 14, 2012, 02:46 PM
I found myself asking this same question not to long ago myself. I used to carry a Taurus PT745 Mill PRO which was a very good gun but only had 6 rnd capacity. I ended up selling it because I felt like I wanted higher capacity so now I carry a S&W 6904 9mm w 12+1. Though it may only take me 6 shots to get the job done I like having the extra 6 already ready to go instead of having to reload or switch guns. lets face it, I can try to train and reproduce scenarios, but nothings like the real life scenario of having to defend my own life. I'm not sure how accurate/inaccurate I will be with the adrenaline coursing through my veins so the extra rounds definitely won't hinder me in my objective, only help in my opinion.

coolluke01
June 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
I second the drop the heavy revolver idea.

For me, I think that if the need for a 7th round comes up I will want it to be right after the 6th round. I don't want to have to draw a new gun and take time. Most likely you'll be moving and will have to stop or slow down to draw the 2nd gun.

I carry the G26 as my only carry gun. I feel extra mags are a better option that a Texas reload. If you feel you really want to carry the revolver I would switch the order you draw them in. The 11 round gun is the one I want to start with.

oneounceload
June 14, 2012, 03:17 PM
If you like the 45, get the G36 - 6+1, plus an extra mag should suffice nicely

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
The 11 round gun is the one I want to start with.

On Americas Got Talent last week a group got 3 Xs and then said "you didn't let us get to the good stuff!"
The judge's response was "you should START with the good stuff."
Now I would like you all to please forget that I mentioned that I watch that show.

On the other hand, if he is better with a revolver than a semi-auto, then the revolver might be the better choice to start with. Just because the semi-auto has more ammo, doesn't mean it can't be the BUG. (I know there are other factors in this next example, but bear with me) my HD weapon of choice right now is either of my shotguns with 6 rounds loaded. My backup is my XDm, which can have 11 or 16 rounds.

easyg
June 14, 2012, 04:17 PM
I would just carry the Glock and an extra magazine which gives you 21 rounds on hand.

As for the question is 6 rounds enough?

Consider this :
Even the best shooters miss occasionally.
And attackers often require more than one shot to be stopped.
And sometimes attackers work in teams.

With that in mind 6 just doesn't sound like enough.

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 04:21 PM
I spoke with someone who actually concealed carried FOUR pistols every day.

That is his right, and his choice

But..........

I personally choose to not live that way.....

What four?

Also, I'm surprised nobody yet has made the pun "is six shots enough? Depends on what yer drinkin!"

mavracer
June 14, 2012, 04:39 PM
A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.
That's more than I carry most days.
Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?
No. your not going to be able to stand your ground and fight. of course one guy with a M-60 machine gun probably couldn't hold their position against a coordinated attack by multiple hostiles.

Dean1818
June 14, 2012, 05:04 PM
The odds of a sustained fight have to be a .0000000001 to one

Unless you are military

I would guess that the vast majority of LEOs have never and will never be in a sustained gun fight, especially since the majority have NEVER fired a single shot in a conflict

Dean1818
June 14, 2012, 05:06 PM
I think i need to rethink my CCW options to conceal an M1Abrams ........

Cause.... You never know

Is there a Crossbreed for that?


Its a free country, carry what you think you need

Skribs
June 14, 2012, 05:33 PM
Its a free country, carry what you think you need

I think the point of the question was to ask what others think they need, to maybe evaluate his own position.

Kleanbore
June 14, 2012, 05:40 PM
The odds of a sustained fight have to be a .0000000001 to oneI'm not sure how that helps us here.

The likelihood of ever needing to fire a weapon in self defense is exceeding low. However, the question of how many rounds will be enough has to be evaluated on the basis of the assumption that shooting will be required.

On that point, reflect upon the following:

Posted by easyg:

Even the best shooters miss occasionally.
And attackers often require more than one shot to be stopped.
And sometimes attackers work in teams.

A member recently posted some statistics about sixty three actual SD encounters. See this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8121799&postcount=1).

The mean number of shots per encounter was 4.7 rounds. Encounters involving no shots fired were not included in the calculation. No one fired 4.7 rounds. The frequency distribution was not provided. In three quarters of the incidents, more than one attacker were involved.

We can conclude that for some of the encounters, five rounds or less were sufficient--that's somewhere between one and five, inclusive. We can conclude that for some, more than five were most probably required. We do not know the maximum. We do not know what would was required for the sixty fourth or subsequent data points. And if we did, we would not be able to conclude very much about the maximum based on such a small data sample.

In point of fact, we cannot say how many shots are "enough" until the situation arises, and then, the answer only applies to that incident.

We can only make an informed judgment. I often carry five, but I prefer more.

This recent episode (http://outdoorchannel.com/Shows/BestDefense.aspx?pid=7HvNgsiuPZR_hjm3B6x_qR42LfKyyWTs&startIndex=1&endIndex=6&delta=0) of The Best Defense is relevant and is worth watching.

ghitch75
June 14, 2012, 06:59 PM
i'll take my 8 + 1 Defender....for wheelies close to a 625.....325PD loaded with these 6 + 12.....no Tupperware here:barf:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2zp40hg.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/n2eetd.jpg

mljdeckard
June 14, 2012, 08:12 PM
Even in the military most fights are over pretty quickly. Whenever possible we go in with overwhelming force.

jeepnik
June 14, 2012, 10:55 PM
Five plus a reload:
http://www.hverovhe.com/nyrrev.jpg
Should suffice except in the case of the coming ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.
Yep, the old New York reload. Nothing faster, and you always have a spare.
By the way, who makes this holster?

Warp
June 14, 2012, 10:58 PM
Not only does that qualify as a new york reload, but a brace (two of the same)

jeepnik
June 14, 2012, 11:01 PM
Not only does that qualify as a new york reload, but a brace (two of the same)
I've got one Colt Detective Special. Now "IF" I had another, that would give me twelve. Hmm. Nah Dick Specials are getting rare as hen's teeth and more costly than you'd imagine.

TimboKhan
June 14, 2012, 11:39 PM
One of my favorite guns to carry, and for a long time my only carry gun, is a Taurus 605. I basically trade capacity for caliber, as I have much more faith in a .357 than I do in any autoloading pistol caliber. Thats not to say I have no faith in 9mm or .45, as much as it is to say I simply have more faith in the .357 as a fighting round. My other carry gun is a 9mm, and so there I am trading a little less faith for more holes.

Additionally, a speed strip takes up no room in the pocket, so in theory i can have 10-15 (or more) available rounds on my person with no real penalty to weight or space. Much slower reloads though.

gym
June 15, 2012, 12:06 AM
It's a subjective question, if you only had 6, then it's enough. What you want may not be what you need. Perhaps 2 reloads and, or, a second gun.

hentown
June 15, 2012, 07:33 AM
I'd put that revolver in a museum and carry the G26. :eek:

atomd
June 15, 2012, 08:04 AM
This whole multiple attacker thing is kind of funny. Now, multiple people may attack you...that's very true. Especially these days...the gang mentality seems stronger than ever. The whole idea that you have 6 rounds, and are being attacked by 3-6 people....you use 6 rounds on some of them but the ones you miss or can't hit because of a lack of ammo get to you and kill you. That is ridiculous.

People tend to flee as soon as shots are fired. It's a survival instinct that really only gets muted by training (which most street thugs don't do). People want to avoid potentially deadly conflicts. That's why criminals usually pick the easiest target....they don't want to get shot anymore than anyone else does.

So these guys are just going to purposely charge into gunfire, watching their friends being shot, hoping your run out of ammo before you shoot them...all to get the $40 out of your wallet? I doubt it.

On the news the other day I saw that guy dressed as a zombie approach an entire basketball court full of guys and they all ran. Even if it really was a zombie those guys could have easily taken control of the situation but they didn't....because secretly no one wants to be the guy that doesn't make it through the conflict.

Kleanbore
June 15, 2012, 10:05 AM
Posted by atomd: People tend to flee as soon as shots are fired.Personally, I would not want to bet everything on what people "tend" to do.

....they don't want to get shot anymore than anyone else does.So, the question is, what is the best way for someone with an edged weapon who has moved into slashing range of you to avoid getting shot--to complete the attack while you are occupied with shooting someone else, or to run, giving you time to shoot him should you choose to do so?

So these guys are just going to purposely charge into gunfire, watching their friends being shot, hoping your run out of ammo before you shoot them...all to get the $40 out of your wallet? I doubt it.For $40, probably not, but if your car and you keys are essential for their escape; if taking you out is a likely possibility and appears to be the best method for survival at the moment; and if the attacker is under the influence of certain kinds of drugs; you cannot count on the attacker breaking off his attack simply because you are shooting someone else.

gym
June 15, 2012, 10:47 AM
I have mentioned similar thinking in 2 current posts, but we never know what the circumstances are going to be, so a couple of reloads would be much smarter. Even as far a changing to a FMJ from a hollowpoint, for a vechicle or barrier. No one knows what the other guy or guys are going to do. Although I carried a 5 shot model 60 for 20 years, things have changed, Now minimum is my 8 round 9mm, with a 7 round mag reload. Or a 26 with a plus 2 and a spare in the glove box. No one knows you may miss a few times if there are people moving and shooting, may as well have some extra rounds.
Especially at night when it's difficult to see the target clearlly.

Warp
June 15, 2012, 10:49 AM
This whole multiple attacker thing is kind of funny. Now, multiple people may attack you...that's very true. Especially these days...the gang mentality seems stronger than ever. The whole idea that you have 6 rounds, and are being attacked by 3-6 people....you use 6 rounds on some of them but the ones you miss or can't hit because of a lack of ammo get to you and kill you. That is ridiculous.

People tend to flee as soon as shots are fired. It's a survival instinct that really only gets muted by training (which most street thugs don't do). People want to avoid potentially deadly conflicts. That's why criminals usually pick the easiest target....they don't want to get shot anymore than anyone else does.

So these guys are just going to purposely charge into gunfire, watching their friends being shot, hoping your run out of ammo before you shoot them...all to get the $40 out of your wallet? I doubt it.

On the news the other day I saw that guy dressed as a zombie approach an entire basketball court full of guys and they all ran. Even if it really was a zombie those guys could have easily taken control of the situation but they didn't....because secretly no one wants to be the guy that doesn't make it through the conflict.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions here.

Assumptions that could very, very easily prove incorrect.

Hammerdown77
June 15, 2012, 11:01 AM
I think carrying a backup is good, not just for extra rounds, but in case your primary malfunctions. That's the same reason you should always carry an extra magazine, for malfunction clearance. Murphy's Law, and all that.

Also, you do not want to be holding an empty gun at the end of a gunfight (just in case it's not really the end). Or in the middle of one...

atomd
June 15, 2012, 11:22 AM
We're talking needing more ammo, which assumes you have exhausted your supply...which means someone has either been shot or shot at. This scenario is only valid if you have fired 5 or more shots MINIMUM (most people don't carry anything that holds less than 5 rounds).

I don't remember ever hearing about a civilian that was killed by being overrun by multiple attackers after exhausting his supply of ammo. Sure, more capacity is better if all else is equal...no one is going to argue that having less ammo is better except when other factors come into play. When you don't feel like strapping on your bulky, heavy, full size service pistol for that quick trip to walk the dog or picking up some milk at the store 4 blocks away, now you have 0 ammo. What if you can only realistically carry so much on you? Not everyone can have everything they need on them at all times.

You're going out at dusk to walk the dog. You're almost positive you'll be back before dark. You're not wearing a 5.11 vest with every gadget known to man in it. You can only carry so much with you. Would you rather have a pistol with 17 rounds in it, along with 3 spare mags....or would you rather have a flashlight, a knife, and a S&W 442? Which one is being more/less prepared? You could argue either way.....I'm a realist so I'll take option #2. I'm preparing for it getting dark faster than I imagined rather than preparing for being attacked by 8 thugs. It tends to get dark. I don't tend to get attacked by 8 thugs. And even if that happens I have a gun....which is a lot better than having no gun.

atomd
June 15, 2012, 11:28 AM
Seems there's a lot of belt+suspenders guys around. That's ok too. Different strokes for different folks. I'm happy with 7 rounds (although I sometimes do/have carried pistols with 9 and 18 in them). If I do get attacked and killed by a mob of thugs after firing all 7 rounds, I give permission to have "This dummy should have carried a higher capacity handgun" engraved under my name on my tombstone. :D

Warp
June 15, 2012, 11:32 AM
You're going out at dusk to walk the dog. You're almost positive you'll be back before dark.

You can only carry so much with you.

And that is the same thing I always carry with me. At minimum it includes 11 service caliber rounds, a primary flashlight, a keychain backup flashlight (180 lumens of backup), pepper spray, cell phone, wallet, etc.

lol at suggesting that a 5 shot snub revolver is required in order to also carry a flashlight.

coalman
June 15, 2012, 11:57 AM
Any scenario can be imaged and it comes down to a balance of probabilty and comfort. 6 is enough as long as you don't need 7. Simple as that. Statistics are all well and good until they're not. 6 is not enough for me though as I opt to avoid the gun I regret having when I need it.

FMF Doc
June 15, 2012, 12:18 PM
You are asking the wrong question to the problem. It doesn't matter how many targets there are, or how many shots you have, what caliber they are or anything else. If you don't hit what you are shooting at, then you will never have enough rounds, be it 1, 5 or 100. Additionally, a second gun, while often a good idea and a viable alternative, is not replacement for a good reload. That goes for revolvers as well as autoloaders. Just because it isn't drop-slap-rack-bang, doesn't mean that you can not quickly and effectively reload a revolver to stay in the fight. I would not want to start out with a 5-shot .45ACP revolver and then under preasure, fighting for my life, have to switch to a subcompact glock 9mm. Totatlly different platform, feeling..everything! I don't know all of you background and skill, but that is a skill that will require a TON of training to develope. If you like the revolver, learn to shoot it well, and learn to reload. There is no excuse not to. It all comes down to accuracy and skill of the shooter.

atomd
June 15, 2012, 12:34 PM
And that is the same thing I always carry with me. At minimum it includes 11 service caliber rounds, a primary flashlight, a keychain backup flashlight (180 lumens of backup), pepper spray, cell phone, wallet, etc.

lol at suggesting that a 5 shot snub revolver is required in order to also carry a flashlight.

I'm comparing sizes and weights of items. I didn't say it was required. There is a limit at some point for everyone or else we would all just carry everything in our house with us at all times. That EDC commando youtube stuff is a bunch of bs that doesn't float in a lot of people's lives. I'm not saying you are overboard (I sometimes carry a similar group of items) but some of these guys mentioning carrying 4 guns? That's insanity.

Try going for a jog or riding a bike with that stuff you carry on....you'll get sick of it real quick. Try wearing all of that while wearing a shirt and tie to a business meeting in the summer. Sure it might be doable but people will wonder why you have things all over your belt and look like your smuggling bricks in your pockets.

You can only carry so much and not everyone can wear wranglers, an oversized hawaiian shirt, wilderness belt, etc 24/7. I can put those items in the pockets of a pair of sweatpants @ 3am and be out the door in no time. To carry those items you mentioned you need at least a belt...which means putting on or changing pants, possibly putting a belt on, holstering a gun if it wasn't already in the holster and then attaching those items to your belt, etc. Would you do that @ 3am if your dog needed to go out or your fire alarm was going off? Would you have all that on your if you were at the basketball court or running down some trails? I don't think a lot of people would.

Warp
June 15, 2012, 12:47 PM
I'm comparing sizes and weights of items. I didn't say it was required. There is a limit at some point for everyone or else we would all just carry everything in our house with us at all times. That EDC commando youtube stuff is a bunch of bs that doesn't float in a lot of people's lives. I'm not saying you are overboard (I sometimes carry a similar group of items) but some of these guys mentioning carrying 4 guns? That's insanity.

Try going for a jog or riding a bike with that stuff you carry on....you'll get sick of it real quick. Try wearing all of that while wearing a shirt and tie to a business meeting in the summer. Sure it might be doable but people will wonder why you have things all over your belt and look like your smuggling bricks in your pockets.

You can only carry so much and not everyone can wear wranglers, an oversized hawaiian shirt, wilderness belt, etc 24/7. I can put those items in the pockets of a pair of sweatpants @ 3am and be out the door in no time. To carry those items you mentioned you need at least a belt...which means putting on or changing pants, possibly putting a belt on, holstering a gun if it wasn't already in the holster and then attaching those items to your belt, etc. Would you do that @ 3am if your dog needed to go out or your fire alarm was going off? Would you have all that on your if you were at the basketball court or running down some trails? I don't think a lot of people would.

Mostly I think your example was just plain silly. If you are limited to a certain total size/weight of items, then after the duty pistol with 17 rounds you fill out the other items, such as the flashlight. You don't pack two full size spare magazines and leave the flashlight at home. While walking the dog at dusk. Because you feel that the only two options are a 5 shot snub or a duty pistol + 2 spare mags. That is just plain silly.

If it's a business meeting I'll have a briefcase, satchel bag, etc, with me. Things like a pocket knife, one of the flashlights, spare batteries, even my phone, etc, can go in there.

When my dog needs to go out at 3am I open the back door and let him out. I don't even go outside. If I do go outside it is into my private, fenced, residential backyard with good lighting...and two big dogs. I can always grab a flashlight from the counter top and a handgun from the coffee table, though.

If my fire alarm was going off I probably wouldn't be worried about picking up a gun. Even if I was, an airweight snub nose J-frame would STILL be too much gun to put in a pocket (pajama pants, some without pockets at all, or gym shorts). If my fire alarm was going off I would be far more concerned with finding out why, grabbing a fire extinguisher, calling the fire dept, getting the cats/dogs round up, pulling the car out of the attached garage, grabbing the computer/documents, etc etc.

BTW: I have gone running many times with my Glock 26 on me.

fastbolt
June 15, 2012, 01:13 PM
Is 6 Shots Enough?

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?

Why wouldn't you just carry the G26 as your primary in the first place, if you had "capacity" concerns? Or a G19, M&P 9 or something similar?

These sort of threads never result in any sort of definitive answer that's considered acceptable or practical by many folks.

I spent a career in LE work, and worked as a firearms instructor for most of it. I started my career carrying a 6-shot service revolver and ended it carrying a 7+1 capacity compact .45 pistol (plainclothes assignment). I could have chosen to carry either an all-steel, full-size .45 (8+1) or a .40 S&W (11+1), if I'd wanted. In between those times I carried some different hi-cap 9/.40 pistols.

I never felt "under-gunned" or "lacking in capacity".

As a matter of fact, if I were to return to an active LE job today, I'd not lose any sleep if I were told I'd be carrying a single stack pistol in any of the major service calibers, or even a service revolver again ... although, if given an option I'd choose an 8-shot Scandium N-frame .357 Magnum over an all-steel 6-shot revolver. ;)

Some folks seem inclined to carry more hardware on their person for their everyday activities than I carried when working in uniform.

Whenever I hear someone talking about going to higher capacity handguns for lawful concealed weapon usage, or carrying more than one handgun, I wonder to myself if they've also decided to upgrade their knowledge, skills, training, practice, experience & mindset to go along with it.

Certaindeaf
June 15, 2012, 03:21 PM
My crystal ball says "perhaps".

MedWheeler
June 15, 2012, 04:49 PM
Six shots is always enough... until it isn't. Point is, how are you, or any of us, gonna know?

gym
June 15, 2012, 04:53 PM
You should carry what you are comfortable with, trying to change someon elses mind will have no effect on the question either way. If you feel ok with a 5 or 6 round wheel gun then that's what you should have. No need to make up scenarios to prove a point, it's a subjective question, like what engine do you prefer, some have to drive a v8, while a 4 cylinder is fine for others.
When your ticket get's punched it will probablly not be in the manner you planned for.

Dean1818
June 15, 2012, 06:58 PM
I think for everyone they need to pick what they feel comfortable with

I live in an extremely safe area of north Texas, and i cannot imagine a scenaro where multiple attackers and I would end up in a protracted gunfight.

I just dont see it happening........ Maybe I am naive



I feel fine with my 7 in my CM9.

I also would feel fine with a 5 shot revolver.....(I am looking at getting an LCR for pocket carry)

atomd
June 15, 2012, 08:03 PM
Mostly I think your example was just plain silly. If you are limited to a certain total size/weight of items, then after the duty pistol with 17 rounds you fill out the other items, such as the flashlight. You don't pack two full size spare magazines and leave the flashlight at home. While walking the dog at dusk. Because you feel that the only two options are a 5 shot snub or a duty pistol + 2 spare mags. That is just plain silly.

Sheesh. I didn't intend for anyone to take my examples completely literally. I was getting at "people have limitations". A full sized duty gun is not within 100% of the population's limitations 100% of every waking moment while not at home. There's a million scenarios, wardrobes or other limitations that would prevent that from being a good option for some.

No one cares how you walk your dog or that you live in a nice neighborhood. I was simply using the dog as one example why someone may need to go outside at night. It could be for any reason at all. Not everyone is just like you and I don't think they are much less prepared than you if they choose to carry something with a smaller capacity :banghead: (that is unless this ever-growing epidemic of people dying from running out of ammo while shooting gangs of thugs in the streets continues)....of course.

clang
June 15, 2012, 08:11 PM
"I spoke with someone who actually concealed carried FOUR pistols every day."

Was he The Road Warrior?

Really - just how many zombies are in your neighborhood? 6 rounds of .45 ACP should cover just about anything short of a war zone, and if you are in a war zone, get a rifle.

The 625 also happens to be one of the fastest reloading revolvers out there when you use full moon clips. It also is one of the most reliable guns in existance.

Now unless you are Mr. & Mrs. Smith and you carry an extra gun to give your wife when the zombies attack becasue she just can't hide her own in the string bikini she wears everywhere, the 625 OR the Glock should be plenty protection with a couple of reloads for insurance.

There is also a downside to carrying more than one handgun. If you carry twice as many guns, you are twice as likely to accidentally expose a concealed weapon. They can also get heavy.

AFDavis11
June 15, 2012, 08:27 PM
It's uncertain. Odds are your the type to fire one round and sit there staring at the mess you just made, or you'll empty most of the gun and then stare at the mess you just made.

Sometimes you'll just sit there in shock and wonder how you didn't hit anything.

I prefer a revolver, because safety and simplicity are important to me, but I've never heard anyone complain about the weight of the ammo they were carrying.

NG VI
June 15, 2012, 08:30 PM
It's better than five.

It's not as good as seven.

That's how the formula works, and it works until you start to take on an unreasonable amount of weight and bulk for a higher number.

Personally I like size-efficient guns. The FNP-9M, Glock 19/26, CZ PCR, those are guns with very respectable capacity for the grip length and girth.

And yes I think some six shot gun on top of a Glock 26 is one gun beyond enough.

I'd expect to start leaving the large, heavy, slower to reload and harder to carry reloads for revolver home in favor of a second magazine for the 26. Much less weight and bulk to deal with, less than the revolver by itself, and a total of 21 rounds if using flush baseplates on the Glock magazines. 26 if you carry an easier to grab 19 magazine with a sleeve on it.

gym
June 15, 2012, 08:40 PM
Guys when you say you live in a nice neighboorhood, that's where bad guys go to rob, they aren't going to get anything where they live. Also in this economy there is no neighboorhood that is above being robbed. I had my worse problems in good neighboorhoods.
As I mentioned I can only live my life according to what I feel ok with. In NYC for 20+ years I carried a 5 shot model 60, or a walther PPKS, I never felt like I needed more, now If I were back there I would carry a glock with a spare mag. That's where I had my home invasion, in a 30 story luxory high rise building with around the clock security and attended parking, it doesn't matter where you live. Many times you need to go through bad areas to get to where you live, "like Fl", and NY, one wrong turn and you can be in a world of hurt. Remember the folks from europe who got lost around Miami airport? they were shot down by gang bangers because they got lost. Stuff happens.

barnbwt
June 15, 2012, 09:42 PM
Do you guys think sea urchins have this discussion about spine sharpness?

I see it as a game of diminishing odds. You may be accosted by cowboys with flamethrowers astride velociraptors, but you may also randomly teleport away from the fight through a wormhole, just in time.


Seriously,
I think the continual urge to "better protect" against some unknown ill is either due to a paranoid lack of confidence to win any fight, or being in a completely indefensible situation. If I feel as vulnerable with a .22 single shot as a 10mm Glock, maybe my skills are what need to be upgraded :o. And if the neighborhood I'm in has me feeling undergunned with a 10mm, that's probably an indication I should be leaving quickly :eek:. There's no profit in defending the indefensible, that's what retreats are for :rolleyes:.

Personally, I am comfortable being reasonably prepared for a reasonable altercation. But there's so many vagueties in that statement it's gibberish. Only practice will tell you what you need. It told me that 8 rounds at the ready in my revolver is jussssst right :cool:

TCB

mostly unrelated:
Guys when you say you live in a nice neighboorhood, that's where bad guys go to rob, they aren't going to get anything where they live. Also in this economy there is no neighboorhood that is above being robbed. I had my worse problems in good neighboorhoods.


I firmly believe 90% of home break-ins occur because someone you showed your possessions to blabbed to a low-life friend/relative. It's completely independent of where you live, and more dependent on your friend's brother's oxy/meth/bath-salts problem. If your "nice neighborhoods" are crime-ridden, they're not "nice neighborhoods." That's what makes ghettos "bad areas", not the absence of picket fences. I learned real early in Cincinnati that a "prosperous community" in close proximity to a hell-hole is just as dangerous. A relative of mine owned a McMansion outside Memphis; he and his neighbors had several violent break-ins, and a 45+ minute police response time at each incident. Sounds like a ghetto to me, but for the property values...

NG VI
June 15, 2012, 11:02 PM
It told me that 8 rounds at the ready in my revolver is jussssst right


For me capacity is more about having an efficient number of rounds on board for the size and weight of the gun in question.

I can't think of an 8 round revolver that offers anything over an 11-shot Glock 26 as a carry gun. The ability to load up hunting level loads is kind of a bonus, but not so much when you think about the inherent disadvantages involved, when you're measuring them as a daily carry gun.

Warp
June 15, 2012, 11:12 PM
No one cares how you walk your dog or that you live in a nice neighborhood.

Then don't present the question. You quoted me and asked "Would you...?", so I answered.

scaatylobo
June 16, 2012, 10:00 AM
Until its not.

No one knows how many rounds they will need when they leave the house .

That being a FACT,its up to the individual [ free country so far ] to choose and LIVE or die with their choice.

I hope and pray that I dont get to find out how many rounds I NEED.

It was fun to play at that game when I was young and about to 'live forever'.

But I do not want to find out that I would have lived had I made a better choice.

So do as y'all choose,and live with it -- I hope.

hogdoc357
June 16, 2012, 10:12 AM
For personal defense scenarios, Yes, I do believe 6 shots is enough with proper shot placement.

barnbwt
June 16, 2012, 10:36 AM
For me capacity is more about having an efficient number of rounds on board for the size and weight of the gun in question.

I also have a Five-seveN for that reason. I really only care for larger handguns, because they are more comfortable for me and point better, so size is more or less fixed for me. My revolver is a Scandium TRR8, so it's actually quite efficient as far as #.357 rounds/ounce. I would rather carry the. 357 because I believe the round is more versatile, and 8+8(moonclip/loader) is plenty for any trouble I'd have a chance of surviving. Remember that extra rounds carried for a revolver aren't there to "clear malfunctions"; I have 16 shots, while a full 1911 with two mags will have nearly the same after 1 early misfeed/mag-switch.

TCB

Amen, Scaatylobo

gym
June 16, 2012, 11:36 AM
Not true in FL , BarnBwt, the state is set up with good neighboorhoods surrounded by less than good neighboorhoods. For instance 4 days ago Comcast came out with another of their lists. The most dangerous citys, 4 or 5 were in FL, 2 where whare my 2 best friends live and where I lived, Now I am up the coast in Vero, there are more Fortune 500 Ex CEO's. who have homes in Vero than anyware else in the country, But last week the crime stats, hit alltime highs. The 4 citys mentioned were Palm Beach, Deerfield, Boynton, and Miami. So that is from the tip right through Ftlauderdale, "which was also mentioned, into and through Palm Beach, The entire coast. Someone is Killed in Boynton with a firearm at least once a week, we stopped listening to the news.
My gym was in Deerfield and my home, our friends still live there, and it's adjcent to Boca Raton, you drift in and out. I was 500 feet from the Boca border on Powerline and hillsboro, "my gym and house".
So they are telling us that all of South Florida up to Martin County is a dangerous place to be. That's where half the retired people in the country live. And the prices have come back nicelly where I live.

smitty704
June 16, 2012, 11:41 AM
I agree with scaatylobo 100%. That is a great way of looking at it, "Being prepared for your worse case scenario." I feel that once I get my extra mag carrier then I will be ready for my worse case scenario. G19 + extra mag + LCP + flashlight + Spyderco= prepared. I'll pass on the 6 shot revolver thing, it's 2012. Thugs have semi-auto's, so why shouldn't I?

My worse case scenario is being attacked my multiple assailants, which is a 50% chance according to James Yeager.

YMMV

smitty704

Skribs
June 16, 2012, 11:42 AM
Gym, in Lakewood, WA, the "ghetto" is literally a block away from the lakeside homes. So I know exactly what you mean.

charlie fox
June 16, 2012, 11:42 AM
Yes; it's about shot placement first, foremost and always! Multiple loud misses with any weapon has zero effect on your opponent. I have never felt under-gunned carrying a 5-6 shot revolver. If I were in a combat zone or kicking down felony suspect doors where multiple targets were a possibility then a high capacity pistol makes more sense; of course I'd probably be carrying a rifle or a shotgun with a bunch of well armed buddies with me;)

I also now believe semi-automatics are easier to train new shooters with; the manual of arms may be a bit more complicated, but the recoil and trigger pulls are more conducive to consistent hits. But basics are basics - front sight, squeeze, repeat as necessary:)

TimboKhan
June 16, 2012, 12:18 PM
OK. I don't want to close this as it doesn't really merit it at this time (though there has been some snarkiness), but I also don't know that further discussion is goign to produce anything of particular value.

Not that I am the end all be all expert on this matter, but it seems to me that a couple of major lessons should be drawn from this:

1. Carry what you personally feel most comfortable with. As has been mentioned, it's your hide, so if your comfortable with 5 or 6, then go forth and feel protected. If you feel like you need more, carry more. It's not a crime to go one way or the other.

2. Shoot what you carry so as to maximize your ability to place shots precisely.

3. Situational awareness is important.

Kleanbore
June 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
The answer to the question is given succinctly in Post #79 by scaatylobo:

Eight is enough -- until

Until its not.

No one knows how many rounds they will need when they leave the house .

That being a FACT,its up to the individual [ free country so far ] to choose and LIVE or die with their choice.
That is a fact. It is indisputable. It should also be obvious.

To be able to choose on an informed basis requires just a little more background on (1) what it takes to engage multiple attackers very quickly; and (2) the effectiveness of handguns in stopping attackers.

For the first, we cannot overemphasize the importance of good, relevant training.

For the second, there is expert opinion available for one's information.

kimura
June 16, 2012, 02:35 PM
OK. I don't want to close this as it doesn't really merit it at this time (though there has been some snarkiness), but I also don't know that further discussion is goign to produce anything of particular value.

Not that I am the end all be all expert on this matter, but it seems to me that a couple of major lessons should be drawn from this:

1. Carry what you personally feel most comfortable with. As has been mentioned, it's your hide, so if your comfortable with 5 or 6, then go forth and feel protected. If you feel like you need more, carry more. It's not a crime to go one way or the other.

2. Shoot what you carry so as to maximize your ability to place shots precisely.

3. Situational awareness is important.
Excellent summation. Everyone has a comfort level. Depends on what yours is. If you're comfortable with six rounds, cool. Also worth adding to the list is what's acceptable in your social setting. Sometimes carrying a Glock 21 is perfectly acceptable; however, sometimes you need to be a little more discreet, so a jframe or a 26 is the choice of the day.

Personally, I think weight is king, so Glock or M&P etc make a whole lot of sense to me. Relatively high capacity in a light weight package. And size choices to fit most occasions. Just my opinion though and you may feel otherwise.

skeeziks
June 16, 2012, 02:49 PM
There are times when I just can't carry what I really would like to.... In the hot FL sun, wearing very little clothing, the most I can conceal is my snub-nose in a pocket holster. If 5 won't be enough, should it go down...then so-be-it!
When it's cooler, and I am wearing a jacket, I am able to arm myself to the teeth if I choose.
Most of the time it's out of our hands....

Warp
June 16, 2012, 02:54 PM
There are times when I just can't carry what I really would like to.... In the hot FL sun, wearing very little clothing, the most I can conceal is my snub-nose in a pocket holster. If 5 won't be enough, should it go down...then so-be-it!
When it's cooler, and I am wearing a jacket, I am able to arm myself to the teeth if I choose.
Most of the time it's out of our hands....

I disagree with this.

It is a choice. We all make our own, and we may all choose differently, but to say it is out of your hands, due to the weather...that is simply not correct. It makes me wonder if you really believe that the snub in your pocket is a good decision. It sounds to me like you are trying to justify your choice by saying you don't really have a choice. But you do.

As always you are free to choose as you see fit.

skeeziks
June 16, 2012, 03:10 PM
Warp...you are not listening. If I have no place to Conceal my weapon then what am I supposed to do? Wear it in a Hollywood rig like Marshall Dillon and get arrested for open carry?
And obviously you didn't read the first line of my post too well. I said "There are times when I just can't carry what I would like to."

I'll say this just 1 more time.... If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.

It's outta my hands.

Warp
June 16, 2012, 03:23 PM
Warp...you are not listening. If I have no place to Conceal my weapon then what am I supposed to do? Wear it in a Hollywood rig like Marshall Dillon and get arrested for open carry?
And obviously you didn't read the first line of my post too well. I said "There are times when I just can't carry what I would like to."

I'll say this just 1 more time.... If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.

It's outta my hands.


But you CAN carry what you would like to. You choose not to. You judge the discomfort is not worth it. That's fine. It's your choice, I won't tell you it is a bad one. But it IS a choice.

It is not out of your hands.

FoMoGo
June 16, 2012, 03:34 PM
I have worked Az, NM, Fla, Ms, Tx, during the summer.
Pants, T shirt, over shirt.
Carrying 1911s and N frames.
It is a choice to not wear clothes that conceal well.


Jim

Kleanbore
June 16, 2012, 03:36 PM
Posted by kimura: Everyone has a comfort level. Depends on what yours is. If you're comfortable with six rounds, cool.

I'm sure no one disagrees with the statements in Post #79. Thus, regardless of whether one may be "comfortable" with six rounds, no one can know whether six is enough.

One would hope that if one is comfortable with six, that that feeling is based upon an informed decision.

Posted by skeeziks: If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.With shorts and an un-tucked shirt, I can carry a compact double column semi-auto or a J Frame, IWB.

If I were limited to a pocket holster, and if I had concluded that it would be prudent to carry more than five, i just might consider carrying two revolvers.

Right now, I am carrying one revolver with five rounds. I am more comfortable than I would be if I were not armed. As scaatylobo put it, I hope and pray that I don't get to find out how many rounds I need.

skeeziks
June 16, 2012, 03:37 PM
Quote= "But you CAN carry what you would like to. You choose not to. You judge the discomfort is not worth it. That's fine. It's your choice, I won't tell you it is a bad one. But it IS a choice."

You're correct....I DO choose not to. But it has nothing to do with discomfort being not worth it. It has to do with not wanting to get arrested for open carry of a firearm.

Please enlighten me as to where on my body I'm supposed to carry a full-size handgun while wearing shorts and a tank and not have the gun show or print?

FoMoGo
June 16, 2012, 03:42 PM
Please enlighten me as to where on my body I'm supposed to carry a full-size handgun while wearing shorts and a tank and not have the gun show or print?
Smart carry, or just dress around the gun.


Jim

Warp
June 16, 2012, 03:45 PM
You're correct....I DO choose not to.

That's all I'm saying.

It is a choice. It is your choice.

If you wanted to you could wear a different shirt and carry a larger gun. Concealed.



Personally I concealed a Glock 21SF under an untucked T-shirt yesterday. If I was more interested in comfort I would have made it a Glock 19, or maybe a Glock 26. No need to jump straight from a snub nose to a full size duty pistol. :rolleyes:

skeeziks
June 16, 2012, 03:48 PM
Funny Guy...Warp.

fastbolt
June 16, 2012, 03:48 PM
You know, upon occasion when some shooter has asked me whether they "needed" more ammunition capacity ... which is a moot point if you're using an issued pistol ... I've asked them how well they can effectively use the existing ammunition load in their issued & personally-owned weapons.

Sometimes this has been after they've just completed a qual course-of-fire, and the person asking this question seems to suddenly gain some better insight into how they could stand to improve their skills. :uhoh:

Giving someone more ammunition to miss with is probably going to create more potential hazards down-range ...

I know some guys who have been in some shooting incidents on & off duty. I can think of 3 of them who still include a 6-shot K-frame revolver (and one a 5-shot J-frame) among their off-duty & retirement weapons.

I see no reason to gainsay their choices.

Making an informed decision about such equipment choices is the responsibility of each responsible private firearms owner who chooses to lawfully carry a handgun for defensive purpose.

Not everyone agrees on the criteria used for making an informed choice, or even what may constitute an "informed" choice. Acquiring additional training, knowledge & experience can help, but not everyone shares the same training, knowledge & experience, either.

Individual freedom of choice (as long as it remains lawful within the existing laws, of course), and making such decisions, may ultimately result in the individual making the decision having to face the consequences of their decision.

It's still just a handgun, though. ;)

Kleanbore
June 16, 2012, 04:32 PM
Posted by fastbolt: Not everyone agrees on the criteria used for making an informed choice, or even what may constitute an "informed" choice. Acquiring additional training, knowledge & experience can help, but not everyone shares the same training, knowledge & experience, either.True.

These points might serve as a general framework for how to establish the bases for an informed decision:

Learning how many rounds it can take one to score a specified number of hits on one or more fast moving violent criminal attackers; relevant training, including FoF training, can go a long way toward that end; range practice will be of little help.
Gaining some appreciation for what it can take to quickly stop a determined assailant with a handgun; research can help with that. One well known instructor suggests keeping a copy of Gray's Anatomy on the bookshelf. Hint: it doesn't happen the way it does in screen fiction.
Accepting the fact that there is a significant likelihood that more than one attacker may be involved.
Understanding that the fact that the liklihood of needing to draw and fire in the first place is less than remote does not enter into the calculation; the analyis starts when the game is on.


Given the constructs of an informed decision, the next step is to exercise judgment. The question is, how much risk is one willing to accept, and that must be answered in light of an assessment of what it would take to mitigate each element of risk.

That's entirely an individual decision.

For me, the answer is not always the same. Often, I carry a J Frame. I never choose to go anywhere "dangerous" if I can avoid it, but when I know in advance that I am going to what predators may consider a "target rich environment" (what Tom Givens has referred to as an analogy to a "water hole on the Serengeti")*, I will carry more.

My head will be on a swivel, and I will be willing to drive around once and drive away if things do not seem right.
________
*Examples include ATMs, and parking lots near major arteries or certain kinds of stores. I live close to two of the major drug arteries in the nation; in a county that leads the state in meth lab busts; within a few miles of a city with a very high rate for violent crime, and many places I go are very accessible to the bad guys on wheels. Most violent crime reports except for bank robberies involve two or more suspects.

Dnaltrop
June 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
"I see it as a game of diminishing odds. You may be accosted by cowboys with flamethrowers astride velociraptors, but you may also randomly teleport away from the fight through a wormhole, just in time."

Barnbwt... Thank you... Every time i see someone with a similar thought process, it makes me feel a bit better about the world.

Of course... if the velociraptors are ROBOT raptors... you're screwed, Otherwise take the mounts out and rupture the fuel tanks, should give you enough time to get to your 100m tall city-crushing robot.

I split my carry between a M&P .40 and a Blackhawk .45 colt... with a Schofield replica thrown in for variety (with one empty chamber to rest the Full hammer on).

Short of angering a Torch-bearing mob, I feel equally armed with any of these 3 regulars.

fastbolt
June 16, 2012, 05:15 PM
Some good points Kleanbore (as usual). ;)

While the FoF training is rapidly becoming understood to be an excellent training venue, albeit one that may be hard and/or expensive for prospective students to find and use (especially one supervised by a properly trained instructor), there's still the issue of having acquired and developed the foundation skillset with the weapon in order to really benefit from the specialized FoF training venue, and understand) some of the things to be learned.

Kind of like how students in the martial arts still have to develop and continue to refine their foundation techniques & skillset before best benefiting from more advanced contact training & practice. You can cut some corners and acquire "self-defense" skills of a more limited scope and range (but hopefully varied enough for "most" anticipated needs), but the serious student might better benefit from continued mat time. A combination of training methods evolves at some point.

Yep, if more folks took some time to grasp human anatomy, and understood how the body worked and reacted to injury, they might have a more realistic approach to their expectations when it involves gunshot wounding effects.

The potential for their to be a "significant likelihood" of more than one attacker being involved is hard to predict. Then again, look how many folks looking to learn a "serious" martial art for "defense" become attracted to some form of grappling ... which pretty much limits your ability to defend against more than a single attacker at any one time. :scrutiny: How many chokes and locks would you see if MMA fighters faced more than a single opponent at a time during a round? (But hey, there's money in MMA.)

The whole risk assessment process is where many folks seem to start to veer off in weird, or perhaps just impractical, directions, I think. Learning to ask the right questions may not directly lead to the "right" definitive answers, but it is a good place to start. The whole self-assessment and risk assessment process might vary among folks.

I use a similar process to yours. I often carry a J-frame, although I also have any number of increasingly larger pistols from which I can choose. I train, practice & qual with them often enough for me to remain confident in their use. If I discover, or just start to suspect, that I've lost that level of "unconscious competence" with any of them, I'll emphasize my attention on it while working range sessions.

The other thing I've done over the years is meld my arts training and practice to my firearms, especially the handguns. It worked with blades and bodily weapons. Why not with guns? Of course, I started my arts training back in '71, and it's been a lifelong pursuit & discipline, so I've had some time to refine and learn to apply it to my daily life.

You're absolutely right about remaining aware of our ever changing environment. Not easy, but ignored at our peril (maybe literally). "Situational awareness" and learning to recognize potential danger situations can help, huh? :)

Oh yeah, somewhere far down the list of considerations and concerns is that pesky "ammunition capacity" factor, I suppose, right?

For some of the other folks participating in this thread topic?

You're fortunate if you've never had the tragic experience of knowing someone, like another cop, who died after exhausting a "hi-cap" pistol, without incapacitating their murderer. Or someone who was seriously injured while burning through most of their duty pistol magazine loadout, only being able to incapacitate their attacker after realizing they had to stop "shooting instinctively", and start actually aiming, so they could get solid hits. (And then stopping their attackers after only 1-3 further aimed shots.)

How about the folks who have faced down, and stopped, anywhere from 2 or 3 to 8 attackers using "limited" capacity 1911's and S&W K-frame .38's? You can slip a few users of 5-shot .38's in there, too.

I've listened to a lot of cops who were involved in shootings ... on & off-duty, some seriously injured and some not ... discuss their realization of the importance of being able to accurately & effectively hit their attackers, and a surprising number of them haven't put nearly the emphasis on either caliber or specific magazine capacity as the private citizens who seem to frequent the internet firearms forums.

I suspect that none of us have all, or even most, of the "answers". I sure don't.

I make my choices based upon my own training, knowledge, experience and best judgment. I realize the potential consequences of those choices.

That's why I only make them for myself, and let other folks shoulder the same responsibilities and potential consequences for themselves.

Maybe it would be easier if I was somebody's idea of an "expert", but I'm not.

JohnBiltz
June 16, 2012, 06:53 PM
I've never carried a BUG, but I've been thinking about it. I carry a G26 and a spare G17 magazine, put it on in when I get up and take it off when I go to bed. I either carry IWB at 3:30 or in my strong side cargo pocket. I carry in the cargo pocket at home or if I'm going to be driving a lot and getting out and walking very little. Cargo pocket is very comfortable for lounging around and its very accessible while driving. IWB if I'm going to be walking around. I'm thinking a second G26 weak side cargo pocket combined with IWB instead of the spare magazine would be a better choice because two things a second gun gives over a primary and a spare magazine is weakside access and some jams don't clear quickly.

Warp
June 16, 2012, 06:57 PM
I can't imagine a Glock in a pocket being very comfortable.

What kind of holster do you use for cargo pocketing a Glock? Loaded chamber, or empty?

coolluke01
June 16, 2012, 07:10 PM
I just got my superfly pocket holster for my G26. I've been carrying it this way for a few days. It's really not bad at all. It feels like a really big wallet.

Monster Zero
June 16, 2012, 07:44 PM
Odds would seem to favor you dramatically that 5 would be enough

Factor one

SD scenarios almost never happen, especially if you dont put yourself in dangerous situations. Sort of like getting hit by lightning as odds.

Factor two

I have read that a great many SD scenarios that do happen, end immediately when a weapon is presented and no shots are fired. The BG runs away. I imagine this happens a great deal, and isnt publicized as much as a shooting

Factor three

Some studies point to the vast majority of SD shootings involve 1-3 shots from the person being attacked

Factor four

Carry a reload, this will give you 10 rounds...... Practice , practice, you will be fine

If you puts these factors together and think defensive and not offensive........ The dramatic odds are you wont need the extra rounds

Should you jump in and be a hero for the $28.37 at the cash register being robbed at
the Seven-11?

Let me say, that unless an innocent is directly in a true threat............. I am not playing the hero.

Do I want to start slinging lead at a BG with him shooting at me as well? What if an innocent is
killed BEHIND me, because I started firing when i didnt really need to, and the BG was a bad shot??? (do you think most BGs go to the range to practice accurately?)

I am NOT seeking a gunfight. That mentality may keep someone from getting killed.

My weapon is LAST resort, when all else fails.

Life is almost always not like TV, with protracted gunfights.

Could there be a case where 5 isnt enough? Yes..... But unless you are an LEO, you LIKELY will
never, ever, ever, need it

I believe the mentality of the CCW will also contribute to rounds fired and the outcome of the encou ter
What you said.

NG VI
June 16, 2012, 09:44 PM
If I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with flip flops, the best I can do is a snub in my pocket holster.


I never had any problem thoroughly concealing a Glock 27 in a FIST #1AK, while wearing a t-shirt and shorts.

Often they were board shorts, so not even the option of wearing a belt.

If you decide to wear a tank top, or not buy an appropriate concealment holster, you are making a conscious choice that the forty bucks for a better holster or a minor adjustment in your clothing is not worth the gain of having a more capable weapon on you in a more accessible rig.

It's fine, it's not like a J frame or LCP is not a lethal weapon, but let's be real here, they are not as capable a fighting gun as the subcompact service pistol class of guns that has cropped up since the Glock 26/27 hit the scene.

And pocket carry is comfortable with light guns and gives you some slight tactical options a holster doesn't, but it's not as fast or as secure or as repeatable as any half-decent in waistband holster.

It's all a balance. If you're carrying a gun, you're already more prepared for unwanted troubles than most. It just doesn't take that much more effort to carry in a generally better way.

TimboKhan
June 17, 2012, 12:51 AM
For me, the answer is not always the same. Often, I carry a J Frame. I never choose to go anywhere "dangerous" if I can avoid it, but when I know in advance that I am going to what predators may consider a "target rich environment" (what Tom Givens has referred to as an analogy to a "water hole on the Serengeti")*, I will carry more.

I do something similar. If I know I am going into a riskier part of the world, I carry my G26, and a spare mag. Like you, my head is on a swivel in those areas.

For the most part, I feel perfectly comfortable with my 605, and thats largely a factor of caliber and practice. Sometime a few years back, I realized that I was a terrible double action shooter, so I started learning how to shoot DA. I am still not totally awesome, but I can place rounds pretty close to right where I want them, rapidly.

I would love to do some FoF training. I cannot afford it, so I make do by running drills with my buddies, shooting from weird positions, weak hand, etc.. Probably 50% of my .357 shooting at this point is drills, the other 50% is just marksmanship.

shiftyer1
June 17, 2012, 01:13 AM
I like comfort in my carry gun. a higher capacity Glock or similar double stack is uncomfortable for me and my 1911s are heavy. I like a snubnose revolver crossdraw, I use my keltec p11 but not as often. If i'm in a long drawn out gunfight, im screwed but if I walked into it....I probably was to begin with.

JohnBiltz
June 18, 2012, 07:45 AM
What kind of holster do you use for cargo pocketing a Glock? Loaded chamber, or empty?
I made one. I did not really like any pocket holster for a cargo pocket since most seem oriented more for front pocket. I've revised it a couple of times over the years. I reinforce over the trigger guard so it can't be fired and carry chambered.

gym
June 19, 2012, 01:55 PM
6 shots is enough.

Dr_B
June 20, 2012, 01:47 AM
6 shots is enough. 5 shots is enough. One or two shots can get the job done if you can place them properly. If you use more than 5 or 6 shots, you've either wandered into something really bad or you went somewhere you shouldn't have in the first place. If you carry a gun with a 15-round magazine and you run out of ammunition, you're probably in a fire fight and you should have been thinking about leaving anyway.

RinkRat
June 20, 2012, 02:11 AM
It only took Vincent 3 shots plus one to make sure he finished one off to takeout two street punks to get his briefcase back and one of them had a gun in his face :what:

Madcap_Magician
June 20, 2012, 01:13 PM
Six is enough unless it's not. Kind of like 0, 1, 5, 17, or 30 are enough unless they're not.

GCBurner
June 20, 2012, 03:22 PM
One useful tip to keep in mind, no matter what kind of handgun you carry: If you think you might ever have to reload under stress, PRACTICE RELOADING, before you ever get in a stressful situation, until it becomes automatic.
I've seen lots and lots of defensive pistol competitions where people get flustered when shooting under the clock, even with nobody shooting back at them. I see dropped speedloaders, speedloaders dumping ammo on the ground, fumbles in pockets trying to find spare magazines, magazines dropping out because they weren't seated fully, or some combination of the above at practically every match. At the range, it only costs some time on your score, in Real Life, it could cost you more.

mgkdrgn
June 20, 2012, 05:01 PM
If you need more than 6, you are having a =very= bad day, and they likely won't do you any good anyway.

Texan Scott
June 20, 2012, 05:34 PM
I carry 5/6 shot .38s. My reasoning is this: it's better than a poke with a sharp stick, innit? There HAVE been cases where one junkie has not been stopped by 6 shots. There have been cases of junkies not being stopped by INSANE numbers of pistol bullets. Crystal meth is weird stuff that way. So is cocaethanol (cocaine hydrochloride and ethal alcohol- crack and malt liquor will do). But the way I figure, if 5 or 6 hollowpoint .38+Ps won't work, the problem won't be that i should've had a glock- it'll be that i needed a 12ga with frangible slugs.
As always, the gun is a tool that increases your odds of survival; there are no guarantees. Stay safe.

Warp
June 21, 2012, 12:55 PM
6 shots is enough. 5 shots is enough. One or two shots can get the job done if you can place them properly. If you use more than 5 or 6 shots, you've either wandered into something really bad or you went somewhere you shouldn't have in the first place. If you carry a gun with a 15-round magazine and you run out of ammunition, you're probably in a fire fight and you should have been thinking about leaving anyway.

One or two shots can fail to stop the attack in a timely fashion, even if you place them properly. We're talking about handguns here.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because you have an average hit rate and it took you 6+ shots to land 1-2 quality hits.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because there were two attackers.

If you use more than 5 or 6 it might be because you were injured before firing those shots and, unlike standing on the range in perfect conditions, hitting a moving target with a handgun when you have broken bones, a MASSIVE adrenaline dump coursing through your veins, and your grip is weak and slipper from the fight (hands on self defense) you just had and the blood that is all over your shooting hand. Or maybe you hurt your shooting hand and are firing off hand, with your off hand.

Read stories and reports about actual defensive uses and real world shooting.

Crap happens.

If you need more than 6, you are having a =very= bad day, and they likely won't do you any good anyway.

If you need ONE you are having a *VERY* bad day!

Pete D.
June 21, 2012, 06:23 PM
Six?
One is enough. Just depends on which one. Hopefully, it'll be the first.
Multiple attackers...slightly off topic but I always wonder, when I read in threads like this about attack scenarios, where people are going that the threat of attack is so imminent? I realize that bad things happen and could, I suppose, happen to me.....but so far 65 years have passed....the last 30 in NYC....and it just ain't likely. I stay away from bad places and bad times of day.
Not everyone can, I understand that...LEOs are the prime example.
Pete

Warp
June 21, 2012, 06:38 PM
Six?
One is enough. Just depends on which one. Hopefully, it'll be the first.
Multiple attackers...slightly off topic but I always wonder, when I read in threads like this about attack scenarios, where people are going that the threat of attack is so imminent? I realize that bad things happen and could, I suppose, happen to me.....but so far 65 years have passed....the last 30 in NYC....and it just ain't likely. I stay away from bad places and bad times of day.
Not everyone can, I understand that...LEOs are the prime example.
Pete

Do you carry a gun?

Skribs
June 21, 2012, 06:40 PM
Pete, sometimes guys have a couple friends and want to pick on someone, or there are places that are great family locations by day but have a reputation for gang hangouts at night. Multiple attackers could be something as crazy as trying to take on the mafia, but in general it means a couple thugs who know each other who are the assailants.

I'm a small guy, and if I were to start a career as a mugger, I'd sure get a couple friends to help out.

willroute
June 21, 2012, 07:51 PM
Guns are a survival tool. Better to have one than not.

As Clint Smith says "Guns are not meant to be comfortable, they are meant to be comforting". Whatever you have, shoot it well. Train with what you carry. I carry a 1911 commander, but alternate now with a PM9 with an extra mag. Both guns have about the same capacity, but I feel I can get off enough shots to keep the attacker at bay or immobilized.

Heck, if you run out of shots with the 1911, you just beat them with it. It is all steel!

willroute
June 21, 2012, 08:01 PM
Hey Texan Scott

Hello from Hill Country. Doing some shooting in Mountain Home this weekend.

1911austin
June 21, 2012, 08:28 PM
I carry a 1911 or G17/G22 with two extra mags as well as some sort of pocket gun. My LCR .357 is usually my backup

willroute
June 21, 2012, 08:52 PM
"The Les Baer 1911 feels like a man's tool, no doubt about it.
...you may want to re-word that.




That Les Baer line cracks me up everytime

Pete D.
June 21, 2012, 09:55 PM
Do I carry a gun? Yeah, I do. A G36 six rounds. No extra mags. But....not in NYC where I spend about half my time.
About guys with friends who like to pick on others....no doubt true. One doesn't find that kind of people just anywhere.....maybe it is a function of aging but I have, as I said, learned to stay away from places and times that are apt to attract guys like that.

beag_nut
June 21, 2012, 10:11 PM
Half-jokingly, I think there should be a universal phrase, something along the lines of "time-out" whereby one could be allowed to reload as many times as wanted, up to and including a 50-round drum, during a fire-fight. Surely we wouldn't want to learn how to aim, huh?

NG VI
June 22, 2012, 09:43 PM
Surely we wouldn't want to learn how to aim, huh?


Personally I'd rather not be stabbed to death or overpowered while assuming a decent firing position and carefully planting a glob of metal into an attacker's head.

I'd rather put all of my effort into not being killed, and putting a couple of rounds as needed in the right direction might be all I can do while fending someone off. I might find that I don't have time to aim carefully enough to neutralize the central nervous system, and that I have to settle for putting a few wound channels through my attacker to buy a little more time and a little more of his fighting ability.

Personally I'm not likely to worry too much about the capacity of a gun I'd be carrying, but at the same time, disparaging someone else's carry choice because they include rounds on deck as a part of the pros and cons is a little ridiculous. More shots is always going to be better than less shots, all else equal.

Everything isn't equal, and there is a point where you're sacrificing daily comfort or shooting ability or whatever, but that point certainly doesn't occur between five rounds in a carry gun and twelve or fifteen rounds in a very slightly larger carry gun.

Lots of very size efficient pistols carry 15 rounds in the magazine, it isn't like the Glock 19 or FNP-9M or CZ PCR are especially bulky or difficult guns to carry. You can't toss them in your sweats pocket, but not everybody has "comfort while dressed in nothing" as their primary concern when picking out a self defense gun. If you are dressed in 2012 presentable attire, not including skinny jeans, you can get a good holster and conceal any reasonably sized gun without much trouble.

It's just too easy to spend another $40-100 bucks on the other half of your carry setup and be really comfortable and happy with any of the myriad subcompact/compact/midsize guns available today to act like carrying more than a J frame is a sign of mental illness or lack of shooting ability.

I'd be a much more capable shooter with a Glock 19 or 26 sized auto than any of the pocket autos or small revolvers too. Carrying a gun that can hold more rounds doesn't mean you are carrying a less capable or less accurate gun. They're generally much easier to shoot well. The extra rounds are a function of size and design, not performance.

scaatylobo
June 23, 2012, 09:37 AM
well spoken and spot on as to content too.

I am of the firm opinion [ having been 'there' ] that if you ever NEED your gun and you have to think about how many rounds and how many perp's = you are in a VERY bad place.

I do not EVER want to be in 'that' place again.

I edc a G-23 ,spare mag [ or 2 ] and a BUG.

And yes that is if I do not expect trouble.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 23, 2012, 09:44 AM
I consider 5 and up enough rounds but anything under 10 should have a reload. That's my viewpoint.

GBExpat
June 23, 2012, 09:30 PM
For me, 6 shots is enough ... but rather than carry an only partially filled magazine, I carry 8. ;)

PT92
June 23, 2012, 10:41 PM
would this be enough?:

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?

If my primary concern was 'capacity' as in your case, frankly I would carry a semi as the primary with one or two spare mags (unless your lack of confidence in the 9mm round precludes such). If the revolver will absolutely be your primary, just carry a couple of speed loaders (provided you are proficient or they will be of little use under stress) with your BUG.

-Cheers

JERRY
June 24, 2012, 02:36 PM
you will run out of time before you run out of ammo.

as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty.

a S&W model 64 snubby is an awsome gun.

skeeziks
June 24, 2012, 02:45 PM
Quote= "as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty."

Yes, but when "Harm" finds Me and gets in My way, I want to be as well-armed as I possibly can be.

Warp
June 24, 2012, 09:49 PM
Quote= "as a private citizen who is not required to go in harms way, a 6 shot revolver with one reload is plenty."

Yes, but when "Harm" finds Me and gets in My way, I want to be as well-armed as I possibly can be.

I find it...weird.

People talk about why law enforcement has a need for this that and the other because they are required to go into harms way to apprehend/stop violent criminals. Well...who are the violent criminals targeting? US!

Apparently when the police, who probably have more training than use, and who probably have more/other tools than us, who are probably wearing bullet resistant vests, and who probably have backup much closer than us, confront these criminals they need more guns/ammo to do this than we would need to protect ourselves in the first place.

Yes, I know, the police often seek out contact and push things in order to apprehend. But still.

JERRY
June 24, 2012, 10:01 PM
Warp, if a bad guy "targets" you with a gun, chances are youre dead before you get off a shot. the bad guys robbing banks and convenient stores and so forth are looking to get away, not stand and fight with you or anybody else.

the ones that "target" random people will still do so and take out the first one or two before anybody else returns fire. once return fire is made, the fight is generally over within seconds for you or the bad guy.

i dont begrudge you wanting a wonder 9 and all that jazz. i just dont want a guy who likes and is very proficient with his K frame to leave it aside because of internet commando talk.

PabloJ
June 24, 2012, 10:09 PM
NO. The 625 is large, heavy and would be next to worthless when drawn from concealment against multiple attackers. I would dump that "Gigant" at earliest opportunity and get compact Glock in 9x19, .40S&W, 10mm or .45ACP.

Warp
June 24, 2012, 10:12 PM
Warp, if a bad guy "targets" you with a gun, chances are youre dead before you get off a shot. the bad guys robbing banks and convenient stores and so forth are looking to get away, not stand and fight with you or anybody else.

the ones that "target" random people will still do so and take out the first one or two before anybody else returns fire. once return fire is made, the fight is generally over within seconds for you or the bad guy.

i dont begrudge you wanting a wonder 9 and all that jazz. i just dont want a guy who likes and is very proficient with his K frame to leave it aside because of internet commando talk.

It almost surely won't truly be random.

Not knowing or understanding the selection process yourself doesn't mean there wasn't a selection process.

deadasslast2004
June 24, 2012, 10:15 PM
well the question in my opinion was answered years ago by 3 armed bank robbers in Los Angeles when they tok on and killed a lot of lawmen both city, state and federal with semi qauto rifles and the Law Enforcement realized 6 is NOT enough and most switched to autos or the now famous Glocks. and as Paul Harvey says AND........Now you know the rest of the story!

PabloJ
June 24, 2012, 10:29 PM
well the question in my opinion was answered years ago by 3 armed bank robbers in Los Angeles when they tok on and killed a lot of lawmen both city, state and federal with semi qauto rifles and the Law Enforcement realized 6 is NOT enough and most switched to autos or the now famous Glocks. and as Paul Harvey says AND........Now you know the rest of the story!
There is reason Glocks sell well and retain used value like Honda sedans.....they WORK. Carrying S&W 625 is like having two Glocks worth of weight with three rounds in each. Loco Maaan.:eek:

jimbo555
June 24, 2012, 10:42 PM
A high capacity glock or a six shot revolver won't do you any good against rifle toting armed robbers wearing body armor.

JERRY
June 24, 2012, 10:47 PM
It almost surely won't truly be random.

Not knowing or understanding the selection process yourself doesn't mean there wasn't a selection process.

the latest coffee shop killer in seattle is an example of randomly shooting people....his reasons needent be understood to still be classified as random. a six shot .38 revolver would have ended his spree right away had anyone not shot by surprise been armed.

PabloJ
June 24, 2012, 11:03 PM
the latest coffee shop killer in seattle is an example of randomly shooting people....his reasons needent be understood to still be classified as random. a six shot .38 revolver would have ended his spree right away had anyone not shot by surprise been armed.
I have seen surveillance videos of woman struggling with attacker over her purse and old guy who fell at gas station and could not get up. There were plenty of people around them who seen what happened but chose to walk by and be unhelpful. If you pinch your nose real hard you will feel no pain Jerry.

JERRY
June 24, 2012, 11:12 PM
If you pinch your nose real hard you will feel no pain Jerry.



i dont understand this part.

JohnKSa
June 24, 2012, 11:28 PM
At the most basic level, 6 rounds is enough IF any of the following are true:

1. You don't have to fire to end the attack.
2. There is one attacker and you need to shoot/shoot at him 6 or fewer times to end the attack.
3. There are two attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 3 or fewer times to end the attack.
4. There are three attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 2 or fewer times to end the attack.
5. There are 4 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1.5 or fewer times to end the attack.
6. There are 5 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1.2 or fewer times to end the attack.
7. There are 6 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker an average of 1 or fewer times to end the attack.
8. There are 7 attackers and you need to shoot/shoot at each attacker less than once to end the attack.
And so on.

That's pretty simplistic and doesn't really tell us much other than what we already knew. That is: Once you are faced with more than 6 determined attackers 6 shots is not enough.

So let's get a little more realistic.

If we were to apply the common rule of thumb (assumed in the "practical" pistol shooting sports and by most handgun instructors) that each assailant will generally need to be hit at least 2 times by handgun rounds to end an attack, and assuming a 100% hit rate, that would imply that 6 shots is enough as long as the number of attackers is 3 or fewer.

Of course, nobody hits every shot they make--least of all while being shot at/attacked. Hit rates of 30% are generally considered to be fairly representative of LEO performance in gunfights. If we make the assumption that we will make hits on at attacker with 30% of the shots we fire, then 6 shots at a single attacker will net us 2 or more hits about 96% of the time if I did the math right.

If we assume 2 attackers both requiring 2 hits or more to be neutralized and a hit rate of 30%, then we can expect to achieve our goal of at least 2 hits on each attacker about 4% of the time. Put another way, based on the stated assumptions, when faced with 2 attackers, we can expect to fail to neutralize one or both of the attackers about 96% of the time with 6 shots fired.

coolluke01
June 25, 2012, 10:04 AM
^^^ Very interesting way of looking at things.

This 30% hit rate. I wonder if that is achieved with an average of one attacker or two? If that average is based on 1 attacker then I would think the hit rate would be much lower when having to transition from one target to another. More movement would tend to mean more misses.

A little while back someone posted stats on SD situation's in a particular city/state. The majority of the time there were 2 or more attackers IIRC. Does anyone remember more details of the study?

Makes me think about my G26 with 10 rounds. At a 30% hit rate that means I'm only landing 3 rounds. I wound't feel very confident about stopping and attacker by only placing 1 hit on him.

I think this should lead us to the realization that practice is the most effective thing we can do to help in a SD situation. It's not a question of how many rounds we need to carry, but instead, how well we use what we have. If I could increase my hit rate by 20% I could land 5 rounds with a 10 round mag, or 3 rounds with a 6 shot revolver.
Evaluating a gun for carry should assume the 30% hit rate. Is 2 hits enough or would you want 3? or 11? (33 round mag :) )

Skribs
June 25, 2012, 11:33 AM
John, Cool, interesting discussion. You also have to factor in the following, but first I'm going to round the accuracy up to 1/3, just because we all gun nuts practice more than your average non-SWAT LEO. So 2 shots with 1/3 accuracy means 6 shots per attacker.

Consider this:
1) Are 3 attackers going to let you get 18 shots off?
2) Can reloads be factored into the equation?

Also, I wonder how many LEO encounters were at longer range.

Snag
June 25, 2012, 11:54 AM
Six shots is enough. If you happen to end up in one of those worse than imaginable situations.....just think of it as a challenge. :D

Skribs
June 25, 2012, 12:06 PM
I'm guessing that's tongue-in-cheek Snag, but if it's life-or-death, I'm not looking for a challenge.

PBR Streetgang
June 25, 2012, 12:37 PM
unless I going somewhere I think there is going to be major civil unrest,I find my 5 shot snubbie and two speedloaders is plenty. As far as shooting distances,most shootings (85%) occur within 6 feet,(95%) occur within 7 yards.That leaves you with only 5% chance of being in a SD shooting at a greater range than 7 yards.When officers were carrying revolvers ,the average number of shots fired were 2.3 ,now with autos it's jumped.

I see people on here talking of engaging multiple assailants ,7 or more. Most LEO's go through their careers never having to draw their weapon against a credible threat let alone multiple credible threats.

A high number of officers are killed or wounded in a struggle over their own weapon or shot from ambush ,making the number of rounds in your carry handgun moot.

Being aware of your surroundings and trusting your gut feelings to remove yourself from a bad situation before it gets worse is your best defense.

In a last ditch situation where you have exhausted all other options, engage the most credible threat first.

Skribs
June 25, 2012, 12:45 PM
Most LEO's go through their careers never having to draw their weapon against a credible threat let alone multiple credible threats.

I personally don't want to be explaining to St Peter "well, I just don't get it. Statistics show there should have only been one attacker! Anyway, will you let me in through them pearly gates?"

Best case scenario if you get attacked is only one attacker, but getting attacked isn't a best case scenario. So I'm not planning for that.

A high number of officers are killed or wounded in a struggle over their own weapon or shot from ambush ,making the number of rounds in your carry handgun moot.

Or even the presence of it. I'm not carrying under the assumption I will be killed before I can draw or that they will take the gun away from me, I'm carrying under the assumption that I will use it in self defense if needed.

Kleanbore
June 25, 2012, 02:44 PM
Posted by PBR Streetgang: I see people on here talking of engaging multiple assailants ,7 or more. Seven was mentioned to make a point. The much more likely scenario is two or more.

Most LEO's go through their careers never having to draw their weapon against a credible threat let alone multiple credible threats.The likelihood of ever having to draw is not a determinant in the analysis of how many rounds may be needed should the occasion materialize.

The likelihood of facing more than one assailant is probably not much less than the likelihood of facing one.

So, it comes down to three questions:


How many rounds is it likely to take to stop an assailant quickly and effectively (think running man with edged weapon)?
How many of them may one have to shoot?
Do you want to have a reserve, or a margin of error?


If the answer to the first is four, and the answer to the second is two, and the answer to the third is yes, one should consider a double column semiautomatic.

A high number of officers are killed or wounded in a struggle over their own weapon or shot from ambush ,making the number of rounds in your carry handgun moot.That is completely irrelevant to the question at hand.

Being aware of your surroundings and trusting your gut feelings to remove yourself from a bad situation before it gets worse is your best defense.Good advice.

In a last ditch situation where you have exhausted all other options, engage the most credible threat first.Also good advice.

skeeziks
June 25, 2012, 03:08 PM
Is 6 Shots Enough?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

would this be enough?:

A 6 shot .45 ACP revolver (Smith and Wesson 625) with an 11 shot Glock 26 9mm as backup. The Glock 26 would only be drawn and used if all 6 shots were fired out of the 625 and more were needed.

I've felt a little "lacking in capacity" lately, so I've added the G26 as backup. Would you consider the combination of both guns satisfactory for sustained fire in say, a multiple attacker situation?

I reposted the original question to show how far off-track we got.
He asked "is 6 shots enough" because lately he has felt a little "Lacking in Capacity" and has added a G26 as a backup.
My answer to his question "Would this be enough?" is this.... How would I know, I don't have a Crystal Ball.

We won't know how many rounds we are going to need until the shooting is over.
Carry as many rounds as you can.

Skribs
June 25, 2012, 03:28 PM
I reposted the original question to show how far off-track we got.

In exploring "is 6 shots enough" we are trying to figure out what "enough" is, in order to answer. You are right about the crystal ball, but at the same time, we shouldn't just fail to prepare because "I don't know what we'll need." You should prepare to the level you believe you need. Some people don't carry anything. Some carry only a knife. Some carry 3 BUGs in addition to their main gun. It's all based on what they expect to need to defend against.

kutz
June 25, 2012, 04:19 PM
In New Mexico it is illegal to have more than one concealed gun.

TimboKhan
June 25, 2012, 04:23 PM
Friends, this thread is pretty far off topic and repetitive. I am gonna close it for those reasons.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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