Which powder for 9mm and 45acp?


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zdc1775
June 15, 2012, 02:24 PM
I am looking for a powder to use with both 45acp and 9mm. I would be using 125 gr. cast bullets in the 9mm and 200 gr. cast in the 45. I am looking for somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 fps for the 9mm and 850 fps for the 45. It also needs to meter well in the Lee Auto Disk Pro that I will be using.

I looked online and the only company that had any real data posted was Hodgdon. I created a spread sheet with the powders that had the velocities I was looking for somewhere between the starting and max load. I have included a copy of this but don't limit your answers to these they were just the data I have available to me at this time.

Also please don't tell me to go buy any manuals I have several that I have ordered or have access to with just an hour’s drive.

Thanks in advance for any help.

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Certaindeaf
June 15, 2012, 02:35 PM
Red Dot.

loneviking
June 15, 2012, 02:53 PM
Unique. Lots of load data and easy to use.

morrow
June 15, 2012, 03:11 PM
Hp38/w231

john16443
June 15, 2012, 03:22 PM
Hp38/w231
^^^ Gotta agree with this.

bds
June 15, 2012, 03:25 PM
Unique.
OP requested powder that meters well in the Pro Auto Disk. My experience with Unique and Pro Auto Disk has been variation of up to .2+ gr charge-to-charge. In comparison, W231/HP-38 meters consistenly with less than .1 gr variation and often with less than .05 gr (of all the ball and small flake powders I have tried, W231/HP-38 has metered best for me in the Pro Auto Disk).


I would be using 125 gr. cast bullets in the 9mm and 200 gr. cast in the 45. I am looking for somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 fps for the 9mm and 850 fps for the 45.
1999 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605) lists the following for 9mm 125 gr lead RN bullet.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166279&stc=1&d=1339787653

I am using Missouri 18 BHN 125 gr RN (SmallBall) and 3.8 gr of W231/HP-38 at shorter 1.080"-1.100" OAL due to the rounder nose profile and that should generate around 1000 fps.


Hodgdon website (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) lists the following for the 45ACP 200 gr SWC:
200 gr CAST LSWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.225" Start 4.4 gr (771 fps) 11,000 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (914 fps) 16,900 CUP
My favorite 45ACP load is Missouri 12 BHN 200 gr SWC (Bullseye #1) and 5.0 gr of W231/HP-38 at 1.245"-1.26" OAL (depending on the pistol) and should come close to your target velocity of 850 fps.

Vlad357
June 15, 2012, 03:40 PM
Plus one for Unique.

Legion489
June 15, 2012, 03:56 PM
Win 231/HP38 are the same powder according to the Hogdon Annual manual and as Hogdon now "owns" Win and other powders, they should know. ALL Hogdon ball powders are the same as Win ball powders, as they now own the St. Marks Powder plant that Olin (Win) built and it is the ONLY ball powder maker in the US. Win 231 is my "go to powder" for all handgun cartridges unless I need magnum power.

Unique and Bulleyes are good powders as well. but Bullseye tends to be a bit dirty. All handgun cartridges loaded by the US military through WWII were loaded with Bulleye, so yes, it can do the job, but Win 231 and Unique are probably more useful powders.

bds
June 15, 2012, 03:58 PM
Plus one for Unique.
Unique.
OP requested powder that meters well in the Pro Auto Disk.


Hogdon now "owns" Win and other powders
Hodgdon doesn't own Winchester, just licensed to sell their powders. OTOH, Hodgdon does own IMR.


http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html
Hodgdon purchased IMR® Powder Company in October 2003 ... In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon.

Legion489
June 15, 2012, 04:02 PM
Win 231/HP38 are the same powder according to the Hogdon Annual manual and as Hogdon now "owns" Win and other powders, they should know. ALL Hogdon ball powders are the same as Win ball powders, as they now own the St. Marks Powder plant that Olin (Win) built and it is the ONLY ball powder maker in the US. Win 231 is my "go to powder" for all handgun cartridges unless I need magnum power.

Unique and Bulleyes are good powders as well. but Bullseye tends to be a bit dirty. All handgun cartridges loaded by the US military through WWII were loaded with Bulleye, so yes, it can do the job, but Win 231 and Unique are probably more useful powders.

Certaindeaf
June 15, 2012, 04:02 PM
^ bds
It's been a while since I've used Unique but doesn't it meter the same as Red Dot?
I find that it (RD) throws very well in my Lee disk setup.

bds
June 15, 2012, 04:14 PM
Certaindeaf, comparison picture below shows flattened small ball powder W231/HP-38 with flake powders Unique and Promo (I have been using Promo with Red Dot load data). Unique is larger than Bullseye flakes and both Unique and Promo charge weights vary up to .2+ gr (Promo will vary even more than Unique). The comparison was done on my newer Pro Auto Disk (I have three). Interestingly, when I used my 17 year old Pro Auto Disk, my weight variation decreased with even large flake Promo, so I have the older Pro Auto Disk dedicated for Promo.

Also, note that W231/HP-38 has shiny coating on the surface. This coating seems to coat the Pro Auto Disk sliding surfaces and lubricate parts. I always recommend W231/HP-38 to break-in new Pro Auto DIsk (about 50 or so cycles and actions start to get coated/lubricated. I never clean my Pro Auto Disk surfaces, just wipe off excess powder with paper towel. With W231/HP-38, the shiny surface you see on disks is not wear, just shiny lubricating coating from powder.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154058&stc=1&d=1323035442

Twmaster
June 15, 2012, 04:19 PM
I use Red-Dot and W231/HP38 in pistols. I shoot both 9MM and 45ACP. I also use a Lee turret press with the Auto-Disk Pro. It seems to throw very consistent charges with both RD and W231.

1KPerDay
June 15, 2012, 06:34 PM
I like Red Dot quite a bit for this. I've found it rarely varies more than .1 grain in charge weights between 3.7 and 4.8 grains.

BYJO4
June 15, 2012, 07:11 PM
I use Bullseye for both.

Bula
June 15, 2012, 07:35 PM
Another vote for W231/HP38. Meters great, relatively clean, consistant. Burns a little cleaner when pushed a little harder than min loads. LOTS of loads per pound. One observation, HP38 is always a little cheaper than W231...

Jeff H
June 15, 2012, 07:36 PM
Another vote for HP-38. Great powder. Although, you can't go wrong with Bullseye or Red Dot either.

Cfish
June 15, 2012, 07:38 PM
WST Try it you'll like for the velocities you mentioned.

Josh45
June 15, 2012, 11:28 PM
Another vote for W-231.

coalman
June 15, 2012, 11:59 PM
Unique. Runs well in both. Lots of data. Forgiving powder.

Marc257
June 16, 2012, 12:13 AM
I like of Solo 1000 for cast loads in 9 and 45.

lono
June 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
Bullseye and Unique both work well.

ArchAngelCD
June 16, 2012, 12:42 AM
My favorite handgun powder is W231/HP-38. I use it for most calibers because it's clean, meters like water and produces accurate ammo. It's outstanding in the .38 Special and .45 Auto and works very well in the 9mm too.

I load a 124gr LRN bullet in the 9mm with 4.0gr W231 all the time. That load might not achieve the velocity you're looking for but since the Max charge is 4.4gr you have plenty of room to get there.

I usually load only 230gr bullets in the 45 Auto but when I do load a 200gr bullet I use the same charge weight as with 230gr bullets, 5.5gr W231/HP-38.

777TRUTH
June 16, 2012, 05:15 AM
HP-38 & Bullseye will both work. HP-38 is my favorite in both of those calibers though.

Uniquedot
June 16, 2012, 08:52 AM
Wow 24 posts and i don't think i saw accurate #5 mentioned anywhere in the thread. I saw red dot mentioned a few times, but red dot doesn't meter as well as unique especially in the smaller cavities. My personal preference is for unique, but when using my progressive press (doesn't shake the powder measure like a lee turret) i turn to accurate #5 which has the same applications in handgun use as does unique. It is an extremely fine spherical powder that meters better than water. It's also a better powder in .45 acp than is 231/hp38.

Hamish
June 16, 2012, 12:55 PM
I use Titegroup for both 9mm and .45 ACP. I just started with the .45 ACP so I don't have velocity data yet, but with the 9mm and 115gr bullets (several kinds and brands) I average about 1100 fps.

Titegroup meters quite well in the Lee Auto Disk Pro, and I also use it for .40 S&W with great succes. Overall, I like this powder quite a bit, find it reliable and versitile, and have put several pounds of it through a Lee Auto Disk Pro without any significant issues.

jim243
June 16, 2012, 01:06 PM
Win 231


Jm

zdc1775
June 16, 2012, 04:06 PM
Ok, so it seems like the overall consensus is either HP-38/Win 231 or Unique. Seeing how the LGS doesn't have Unique right now I think I will try HP-38.

Thanks for the help.

7mmb
June 16, 2012, 07:37 PM
HP38/231 will work well in both and there is a lot of data, especially under the 231 moniker, remember they are the same powder and data is interchangable. It meters very well too. I use Universal for both. It's cleaner and a little slower, not as fine grained but still meters well.

1SOW
June 16, 2012, 09:03 PM
For your speeds and calibers, check out Vihtavuori n320.
In cost per rd it's about 1+ cent more per cartridge, but runs clean and has a good load range.

Win 231 @ 1000 fps for 9mm Luger will burn very sooty. At about 1070 and higher it'll clean up quite a bit.

ArchAngelCD
June 17, 2012, 03:12 AM
Ok, so it seems like the overall consensus is either HP-38/Win 231 or Unique. Seeing how the LGS doesn't have Unique right now I think I will try HP-38.

Thanks for the help.
4.0gr HP-38 under a 158gr LSWC for the .38 Special.
5.5gr HP-38 under any 230gr bullet for the .45 Auto.

bubbacrabb
June 17, 2012, 05:19 AM
Win 231 is a great powder. I own a lot of it. I bought all I could afford of 231, Unique, and h335 with the upcoming election. I still think Unique is the best in 45. I really like unique in 38 also.

hentown
June 17, 2012, 09:42 AM
I use AA#5, exclusively, for .45acp and 9mm reloading. Meters well; works great for both moderate and full-power loads.

Certaindeaf
June 17, 2012, 10:34 AM
Certaindeaf, comparison picture below shows flattened small ball powder W231/HP-38 with flake powders Unique and Promo (I have been using Promo with Red Dot load data). Unique is larger than Bullseye flakes and both Unique and Promo charge weights vary up to .2+ gr (Promo will vary even more than Unique). The comparison was done on my newer Pro Auto Disk (I have three). Interestingly, when I used my 17 year old Pro Auto Disk, my weight variation decreased with even large flake Promo, so I have the older Pro Auto Disk dedicated for Promo.

Also, note that W231/HP-38 has shiny coating on the surface. This coating seems to coat the Pro Auto Disk sliding surfaces and lubricate parts. I always recommend W231/HP-38 to break-in new Pro Auto DIsk (about 50 or so cycles and actions start to get coated/lubricated. I never clean my Pro Auto Disk surfaces, just wipe off excess powder with paper towel. With W231/HP-38, the shiny surface you see on disks is not wear, just shiny lubricating coating from powder.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154058&stc=1&d=1323035442
Excellent. Thanks

SlamFire1
June 17, 2012, 11:10 AM
Bullseye will work great in both applications. A load around 3.8 to 4.0 grains Bullseye with a 200 gr H&G 68 type bullet is extremely accurate in the 45 ACP. W231/HP38 works very well in both cartridges.

Walther P5 3.4" barrel


125 LRN .356" 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 827 (60's/70's) Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
28-Jun-09 T = 93 °F

Ave Vel = 1072
Std Dev = 22.44
ES = 107.4
High = 1145
Low = 1037
N = 32



125 LRN .356" 4.0 grs Bullseye 1998&2005 mixed lot Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
20-Jun-09 T = 90 °F

Ave Vel = 1038
Std Dev = 8.48
ES = 20.71
High = 1049
Low = 1029
N = 8

125 LRN .356" 4.1grs W231 Lot 8UB9 Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
20-Jun-09 T = 90 °F

Ave Vel = 956.1
Std Dev = 23.57
ES = 71.09
High = 998.1
Low = 927
N = 7

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/ReducedWaltherP5leftsidePA010067.jpg



Kimber Custom Classic

200 LSWC 5.6 grs W231 Mixed cases Fed 150 11-Sep-05
T = 88 °F

Ave Vel = 854
Std Dev = 21.21
ES 87.61
High 907.1
Low 819.5
N = 32


200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300 11-Sep-05
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"
T = 88 °F

Ave Vel = 738.9
Std Dev = 10.34
ES 37.98
High 755.8
Low 717.8
N = 32


200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WLP 21-Jun-06
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"
T = 97 °F

Ave Vel = 748.2
Std Dev =10.86
High 763.2
Low 721.7
N = 22
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/KimberRightSideDSCN0753.jpg

zdc1775
June 17, 2012, 11:24 AM
How well does Bullseye meter?

RandyP
June 17, 2012, 11:28 AM
Several great choices out there - I happened to start reloading using Win 231/HP-38 and for the 4 calibers I reload I have not yet found a reason to search for anything else. It's not very expensive and it meters very well in my Lee dispensers. It has a lot of published load data.

Not saying my choice is the 'best', but it works for me to create the ammo I want and I enjoy the simplicity using only one powder offers.

bds
June 17, 2012, 11:40 AM
How well does Bullseye meter?
Bullseye meters pretty well in my Pro Auto Disk with less than .1 gr variance charge-to-charge but not as well as W231/HP-38. Having said that, Bullseye can produce more accurate loads than W231/HP-38 but produces more snappy recoil for me.

Trent
June 17, 2012, 11:51 AM
Plus another for Unique. :)

floydster
June 17, 2012, 12:33 PM
I tried many different powders for my pistols over the years and I still come back to Bullseye:)

mike.h
June 17, 2012, 12:40 PM
Bullseye

hentown
June 17, 2012, 01:03 PM
So, OP, what do you know now, that you didn't know before you started this thread?? :evil:

Redneck with a 40
June 17, 2012, 01:19 PM
I'd go with Unique or Universal for both. I load Unique in 9mm and 40 S&W and its always worked great.

zdc1775
June 17, 2012, 04:20 PM
Not much hentown, just a little more confused.

hentown
June 17, 2012, 06:46 PM
That's the way threads like this always go. If you ask a question about what somebody uses on a forum like this, you'll get eleventy-zillion preferences. You'd do just as well just picking a powder at random. I use ball powders, when possible, for easy metering.

bds
June 17, 2012, 07:07 PM
So, OP, what do you know now, that you didn't know before you started this thread??Not much hentown, just a little more confused.
Maybe this will help with your lead 9mm/45ACP powder selection.

For me, I use W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal as the line I draw between faster burning pistol powders good for target loads and slower burning pistol powders for full-power loads. Here's a powder burn rate chart for reference - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Slower burning powders usually need to be used at high-to-max load data to generate consistent chamber pressures for tighter shot groups. When I conduct powder workup with slower powders, I often see accuracy trends that improve as the test loads approach the max charge and accuracy is poor-to-fair at start-to-mid range load data and loads burn dirtier.

Faster burning powders like W231/HP-38 will produce more consistent chamber pressures even at lower powder charges and produce very accurate target loads at mid-to-high range load data (powders such as Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo, Clays, Titegroup, WST, N320, W231/HP-38 etc.). Some faster burning powders will start to produce accuracy trends even at start charge and most will produce good-to-very good accuracy trends at mid-to-high range/max load data that are cleaner burning.

To me, Unique/Universal are "medium" burn rate pistol powders with characteristics that meet both the faster and slower burning powders to produce accurate target loads and full-power loads. Unique doesn't meter well for some powder measures. Many claim they switched to Universal for better metering. I have used Universal for 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP and prefer the faster burning W231/HP-38 for lighter target loads. For range practice/plinking loads, most reloaders I know do not use max loads and faster burning powders produce accurate target loads while using less powder (4-5+ gr vs 5-6+ gr) that will lower the cost of reloading.


IMO, bullet-to-barrel fit/seal is crucial for lead bullets to produce consistent chamber pressures that results in accuracy and reduced leading in the barrel. At mid-to-high range load data, faster burning powders build high enough chamber pressures quicker to bump the bullet base to deform/obturate with the barrel to seal the high pressure powder ignition gas. Here's more on leading in reference to powder burn rate - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Another source of leading that can be traced to the components of the load is the mismatch of the powder burn rate to pressure generated by the load. Many years ago Elmer Keith used to write about the "balance point" of a given powder; the range of pressures at which that powder delivered smooth uniform ballistics

Basically this boiled down to fast powders for light target loads (e.g. Bullseye, W231, HP-38, AA #2), medium burners for standard pressure loads (like Unique, Universal Clays, AA #5), medium slow powders for +P loads (powders like HS-7, Blue Dot, AA #7) and slow powders for full-house magnum loads (like W296, H110, 2400 and AA #9).
I hope this helped. :)

Uniquedot
June 17, 2012, 10:59 PM
Here's a powder burn rate chart for reference

Perhaps if he needs or wants an accurate burn rate chart he should turn to the powder manufacturer of the powder he wants to use as that hodgdon chart is way off the mark.

jfrey
June 17, 2012, 11:10 PM
I started off using Unique and was satisfied with the loads I got. On a suggestion of a reloading friend, I changed to WSF and like it much better. Meters very well through my Dillon powder measure. Load drops are right on the money. Unique will give you +_.1 or .2 sometimes. No big deal when I load .45 Colt ammo. For 9mm you want what you drop to be consistent. .45ACP the same way.

Uniquedot
June 17, 2012, 11:12 PM
Here is a more accurate chart.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

bds
June 18, 2012, 05:16 AM
I do realize powder burn rates are "relative" and comparison charts should be used as a reference guide.

Kinda interesting that the chart has W231/HP-38 as faster burning than Titegroup, Red Dot/Promo and E3.

Really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166502&stc=1&d=1340010951

bubbacrabb
June 18, 2012, 05:27 AM
Your just gonna have to buy a few and try. Powder is cheap. You can try 5 for 100 bucks. I really like unique and 231. I use them both so I stock up on them both. I also use a lot of 2400. I think after all this nonsense any of the ones listed will work and will work better than any of us can shoot to tell a differnce. I got the same drop variance with 231 and unique. They're all good powders.

NWcityguy2
June 18, 2012, 09:25 AM
Not much hentown, just a little more confused.

Thats because when you pick two calibers that aren't all that different there really isn't one powder that produces all that different results from the others. Several good powders have been recommended here and there are some others which haven't. When choosing between two equally suitable powders, pick the one with the best looking label, thats my advice. You would have to be a bullseye shooter (the sport not the powder) or own a ransom rest to tell the difference between most powders listed here.

SlamFire1
June 18, 2012, 10:53 AM
When choosing between two equally suitable powders, pick the one with the best looking label, thats my advice.

Good idea, the results won't be that much different at the end.

This is probably the most stress free way of doing it.

4895
June 18, 2012, 01:48 PM
I really like Bullseye in .45 acp. I know it works for 9mm Luger but I haven't tried it yet. I would buy a pound of Bullseye, 231, unique, AA 5, and see what you like. Based upon the opinions here, they will all work equally well.

oldreloader
June 18, 2012, 06:39 PM
I like Bullseye, HP38, and AA#5 for both

dragon813gt
June 18, 2012, 09:39 PM
I answer these threads the same way all the time. WIN231/HP-38. Only other powder I use is Universal for heavyweight 9mm bullets. I know there is a huge variety of powders. But I keep everything simple for a reason.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

coebam
June 18, 2012, 10:25 PM
I use Red-Dot and W231/HP38 in pistols. I shoot both 9MM and 45ACP. I also use a Lee turret press with the Auto-Disk Pro. It seems to throw very consistent charges with both RD and W231.
__________________
Mike

Me too...Exactly Mike. I think I like red-dot a touch better...But may be in my head. Both powders perform great. Didn't care too much for unique. I think it burns a little too slow for my preferences.;)

shootniron
June 18, 2012, 11:48 PM
morrow


Hp38/w231

I resemble this remark...me 2.

1SOW
June 19, 2012, 12:35 AM
+1 for the bds post.

Many of the suggestions given, just won't work well for the requested 1000+ fps 9mm speed, which is "not" a mid-range load. It's a mouse-gas light load unless the OP is using 147gr bullets.

bds
June 19, 2012, 01:30 AM
125 gr. cast bullets in the 9mm and 200 gr. cast in the 45 ... 1000 fps for the 9mm and 850 fps for the 45.
1SOW, yes I did look at load data/velocities for different powders before I recommended W231/HP-38 for the two lead bullets to hit 1000 fps for 9mm and 850 fps for 45ACP.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166547&stc=1&d=1340084053

From Hodgdon website (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp)
200 gr CAST LSWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.225" Start 4.4 gr (771 fps) 11,000 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (914 fps) 16,900 CUP



Here's something more to chew on. Many suggested Red Dot and when I did my initial load development with Promo using Red Dot load data by weight (as indicated by Alliant), I was very skeptical of accuracy claims made by many.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166543&stc=1&d=1340082575

Using 2004 Alliant load data, for 125 gr 9mm lead RN (Missouri 18 BHN SmallBall), 4.0 gr of Promo with 1.080"-1.100" OAL will produce a very accurate load. My new Pro Auto Disk won't drop Promo with less than .2 gr consistency, but I got my 17 year old Pro Auto Disk to drop Promo consistently within .1 gr. If you are able to drop Promo consistently, accuracy from Promo loads can be as accurate, if not better than the W231/HP-38 loads and should be able to attain 1000 fps depending on powder charge used.



For 200 gr 45ACP lead SWC (Missouri 12 BHN Bullseye #1), 4.0 gr of Promo with 1.245-1.250" OAL will produce a very accurate load with light recoil (see 2004 Alliant load data below). However, even with 2011 Alliant load data max charge of 4.5 gr of Red Dot, only 831 fps was generated with shorter 1.190" OAL, not meeting OP's target velocity of 850 fps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166545&stc=1&d=1340083796

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166546&stc=1&d=1340083796

ArchAngelCD
June 19, 2012, 02:24 AM
I see some recommending AA#5 for the .45 Auto and with good reason. That powder was specifically designed for use in the .45 Auto so is better work well! LOL

To the OP, the reason you're seeing so many different suggestions is there are so many good powder out there now that will work well with most handgun calibers. I have used Clays, W231/HP-38, Universal, Green Dot, AA#2, AA#5, Power Pistol, HS-6, Longshot, Zip, True Blue and probably a few I forgot using in one or the other or both and most worked fairly well.

My favorite .45 ACP powder is W231 but I would use AA#5 or Zip without losing any performance.

My 2 favorite powders for the 9mm are W231 and Longshot but HS-6 and True Blue also work well...

Remember, years ago there were very few choices available for handgun rounds. The original "Powder Trinity" was Bullseye, Unique and 2400. My Powder Trinity is W231 (HP-38), W540 (HS-6) and W296 (H110). Way back when Bullseye was your pistol powder, Unique was your shotgun powder and 2400 was your rifle powder. We have come a very long way from then and our powder choices seen endless and there doesn't seem to be a bad one in the mix.

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