AR pistol kit question


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Casefull
June 17, 2012, 01:41 PM
I have a pistol upper ar kit. I want to put it on a stripped lower receiver. Do I need any "pistol only" markings on the receiver to make it a legal pistol? Thanks for any input.

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rjrivero
June 17, 2012, 01:47 PM
No. Your pistol lower does not need any "specific" markings to make it legal. It just needs to be transferred properly on your 4473 as "other." You can then make it into any type firearm you would like.

As a little bonus, you can construct it into a pistol, then if you choose, you can construct it into a legal rifle, and switch it back to a pistol again as you wish. See ATF 2011-4 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Fregulations-rulings%2Frulings%2Fatf-rulings%2Fatf-ruling-2011-4.pdf&ei=0QneT9P5E8Gk6gGFxNjACw&usg=AFQjCNFZ4aXYua46BSWA6HIyMcRWOntPeQ)

I would recommend if you decide to go this route to document the fact you made it into a pistol FIRST, by taking pictures of it using today's newspaper as a back ground. Better yet, also take a short video of it on the newspaper. Zooming in to the serial number and the date of the newspaper.

Hope this helps.

RJ

Casefull
June 17, 2012, 02:15 PM
Thanks RJ, that was a helpful link, and great suggestions. Chuck

wally
June 17, 2012, 02:50 PM
if you decide to go this route to document the fact you made it into a pistol FIRST, by taking pictures of it using today's newspaper as a back ground

Ridiculous! to get a conviction on this totally stupid and unenforceable "ruling" they have to prove you made it into a rifle first. Or has Obama burned the Constitution and made "innocent until proven guilty" only apply to dopers, union thugs, and illeagal immigrants?

The assumption now is you are making it into a pistol as that is why you must be 21 and a resident of the purchase state to buy a stripped lower now, and all stripped lower sales are now marked "other" on the 4473.

Casefull
June 17, 2012, 05:20 PM
Wally, Is the form you fill out when purchasing the stripped lowers form 4473? I do not want to be in violation out of my own ignorance.

Sam1911
June 17, 2012, 05:51 PM
If you purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms License dealer (which you'll have to do if it is a new weapon) you will out a form 4473. That records the transfer for the dealer's records.

On the form there are three possible choices: Long gun (rifle or shotgun), handgun, or "Firearm." If your weapon comes to you with a shoulder stock attached, it will transfer as a long gun. Further, it cannot ever be configured as less than 26" overall, or with a barrel of less than 16" without first registering it as an SBR (technically, a "firearm made from a rifle").

If it comes to you without a buttstock, and with a barrel, but less than 26" overall, it will transfer as a handgun. Thanks to the recent ATF ruling, you can then make it into a rifle if you want, and then take it back to pistol configuration. (Previously, this would be a felony. If you made it into a rifle, it was ALWAYS a rifle and required registering it as a Title II firearm.)

If it comes to you as a stripped receiver, it will transfer as a "Firearm" (like a PGO shotgun does, or a belt-fed semi-auto M1919), and you can built it into either a long gun or a handgun as you wish.

A careful reading of the ATF's ruling indicates that if you want the flexibility to build it back and forth (handgun ---> rifle ---> handgun, etc.) you should start by building it as a handgun. Could that ever be enforced against you if you didn't? Heck, I don't know. But there's lots of federal felonies related to gun building (and transferring, and just about everything else) that might be hard to believe would be enforced -- but we follow the law.

rjrivero
June 17, 2012, 05:57 PM
On the form there are three possible choices: Long gun (rifle or shotgun), handgun, or "Firearm." If your weapon comes to you with a shoulder stock attached, it will transfer as a long gun. Further, it cannot ever be configured as less than 26" overall, or with a barrel of less than 16" without first registering it as an SBR (technically, a "firearm made from a rifle").

Respectfully, I disagree. A lower, weather complete with butt-stock or without a butt-stock is STILL transferred as "Other firearm." As long as it's never been built into a complete Rifle, it can STILL be made into a pistol without fear of violating NFA Rules. (Provided you put any stock in the ATF letters floating around.)

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff455/DonFerrando/BB.jpg

Ridiculous! to get a conviction on this totally stupid and unenforceable "ruling" they have to prove you made it into a rifle first. Or has Obama burned the Constitution and made "innocent until proven guilty" only apply to dopers, union thugs, and illeagal immigrants?

I do agree with you that it is ridiculous. Why should you have to prove your actions are legal? However, it's not hard to make the "proof of life" and it could potentially save you headache down the road. Sometimes the hardest things we do as gun owners is to stay legit when it comes to these stupid gun laws.

bbuddtec
June 17, 2012, 07:39 PM
Thanks guys, I am glad I came upon this thread, as I thought I needed a marked as pistol lower, and I am sure to register it as pistol first, being a registering state. It sure gets silly, and I really would be glad with just a pistol, but the option of re-configuring it is great, and I thought that sbr problems would arise... no desire to sbr it at all.

Thanks again.
BBt

Sam1911
June 17, 2012, 08:06 PM
A lower, weather complete with butt-stock or without a butt-stock is STILL transferred as "Other firearm." As long as it's never been built into a complete Rifle, it can STILL be made into a pistol without fear of violating NFA Rules.

Hmmm...well, while we're interpreting written text, your interpretation would depend on how you read the phrase "barreled and/or stocked as a rifle." I believe most people see that wording as indicating either one, or the other, or both. Meaning either would disqualify the use of a receiver for a pistol build.

Now, that's a strange wording, as a rifle BARREL doesn't have any bearing on anything. You can install a 40" barrel on a handgun if you like. Technically, when so stocked, a receiver would transfer as a "Firearm", not a handgun, but the point is moot.

So the only part of their phrase that has any meaning is the mention of the shoulder stock, which is exactly what NFA'34 says in the first place! The definitions set out in that old law refer to any weapon that is "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder as a rifle (or shotgun). So the butt stock is the relevant feature.

I don't read what you're reading in that letter and I'd like you to walk me through why it says what you say it does.

(Alternately, you may be hinging this on the term "completed" but I doubt it. That seems way too ambiguous.)

Casefull
June 17, 2012, 08:25 PM
For what it is worth I purchased 4 stripped DSA lowers at one time through ffa dealer and filled out the same paperwork as with any other firearm. I built the pistol kit from this generic receiver. Thanks for the info.

rjrivero
June 17, 2012, 10:49 PM
Sam1911:

I do agree that letter is ambiguous. This one is less so. LINK HERE. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/edit?pli=1)

This letter makes it more clear that the barreling of an action to make it a rifle. I have another letter somewhere around here that explains it as well. Stand by and I'll try to locate it as well. There are a bunch of them floating around.

Sam1911
June 17, 2012, 11:15 PM
For what it is worth I purchased 4 stripped DSA lowers at one time through ffa dealer and filled out the same paperwork as with any other firearm.Of course. Did you happen to notice how the dealer filled in the box for type of firearm?

Casefull
June 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
No I did not notice. I will ask them next time I am in their store. Hell, I did not think I needed to. Everyone always talks about the taxes in this country and I hate paying them as much as anyone but the regulations are what are killing us. Almost every inovation and production of said innovation of the last century could not happen today because of the limitations imposed by regulation. The new "edison" may still invent the next light bulb in his garage but he will have to have it produced in China.

Sam1911
June 19, 2012, 12:59 PM
No I did not notice. I will ask them next time I am in their store. Hell, I did not think I needed to. Well, you don't really...except that if they were transferred on the 4473 as rifles instead of "Firearms" then that would be pretty compelling evidense against you that they might actually have been configured as rifles initially and thus were illegal to "convert" into handguns without NFA Title II registration.

Now, such prosecution seems vanishingly rare, and you (or your attorney) should be able to produce enough records from the manufacturer to establish that the form had been filled out in error.

IF it was. I believe that most FFLs these days know that a brand new bare receiver transfers as a "Firearm", not a rifle. But you just never know.

dogtown tom
June 19, 2012, 10:21 PM
Sam1911 ....On the form there are three possible choices: Long gun (rifle or shotgun), handgun, or "Firearm."...
Sam, the third choice is actually "Other Firearm".....not "Firearm" on Question 18.;)

Sam1911
June 20, 2012, 07:46 AM
Thanks!

tepin
June 20, 2012, 03:25 PM
This actually happened to me as I explained on another forum that rjrivero and I seem to frequent.

Few years back I purchased 4 or 5 stripped lowers and they were added to my 4473 as long guns and called in as long guns on the NICS check. It didn't matter to me because they will in fact become long-guns.

In April I purchased two stripped lowers from another FFL and he logged them as "other". I also email Palmetto State Armory to verify my 2 serial numbers are virgin "other" receivers. I did all this because I have made an AR pistol while I am waiting on the SBR process.

Definitely make sure you verify with your FFL and the manufacturer as to the status of the receiver.

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