[jimmysadd]

i'm looking for a gun for my wife home defence. she's 4 ft 11 in tall and has a bad hand. i never had a gun i'm 77. the way the world is now. maybe i need one

[SHR970]

At 4'11" the most critical thing to cover first is the size of the gun. By that I mean length of stock, and her ability to hold it properly and get her finger on the trigger. Most guns are made for men 5'9" to 6'2". Even the so called "Youth" models usually only shorten the stock but do nothing to modify the stock wrist size and shape for smaller people. That makes the felt kick seem more than it should.

A 410 doesn't kick that bad; it throws half the payload out that a 12 gauge does. It also does it in a platform that weighs about 75% of a 12 gauge. But they still kick more than most would suspect. A good recoil pad, a fitted stock, and some extra weight in the stock will mitigate some of that.

The gun that fits her will not fit you well though.

[Centurian22]

SHR970 you seem to assume he is referring to a long gun. This may well be the case but there are also the Judge and Defender series 410 (and 45 long colt) revolvers out there to consider. Though I agree a shotgun would most likely give the best control and recoil Managment as compared to a handgun.

[wyohome]

You may want to consider a 10/22 or similar. She could shoot the heck out of it practicing without being concerned with cost or recoil. I am aware that the 22 is not a first choice home defense round, but 10 of them coming your way in a couple of seconds would be a serious deterrent.

[SHR970]

Centurian22,

She is 4'11" and has a bad hand; pretty much rules out the Tauri handguns. Her small hands won't get anything near a proper grip on the gun and she'll have issues getting to the trigger in double action and thumbing into single action poses its own challenges. Being 5'4" I have some perspective on these issues as well as proper fit of long guns that the "average male" just doesn't get.

[303tom]

Something like this may be what you are looking for............

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=sb1-41c

[Deltaboy]

A Mossburg 410 pump with the pistol grip stock would work.

[TurtlePhish]

A Mossburg 410 pump with the pistol grip stock would work.


You don't mean a PGO, right?

[Gordon]

Get a local NRA instructor to show you how to safely handle a .38 pistol ( I reccomend 4" barrel S&W Military and police used if possible) with wad cutter or modern lightweight bullet high performance ammo (hint shoot the wadcutters first until you can hit a shilo K zone at 7 yards with it) . At your age and her diminutive size the use of a Pump action shotgun of any guage is really not wise unless you have years behind one! The other actions are really not that safe to have at theready with out very special planning. Just my wise $.02 on the real world and we don't need another gun accident!

[pps]

As pointed out above, proper fit and a good buttpad are important.

Some numbers to compare recoil:

12 Gauge 00 Buck, 9 pellets (484 grains) @ 1325 feet/sec = approx 1800 ft-lbs

.410 Bore 000 Buck 5 pellets (350 grains) @ 1135 feet/sec = approx 1000 ft-lbs

Though I'm not a fan of .410 for self defense, my two girls are about your wife's stature and both can shoot my old .410 well.

The Mossberg 505 youth model .410 with 20" barrel is what I'd take a serious look at. Hopefully she is on the same page as you, in terms of self defense, and is willing to go out to the range and try the gun out.

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/57120.jpg

[btg3]

With a pump gun, you can download a 12ga to a .410 load -- which would "kick" less than getting a .410 gun due to the weigh difference of the guns. The catch is that you'd need for someone to load those shells.

For a handgun, shooting .38spl ammo from a .357 with a 4" barrel is a great choice. For a lighter weight handgun, the .380 Bersa Thunder is a sweet shooter without the heft.

[Kiln]

The .410 has very little recoil when fired from a shotgun in my opinion. Even as a pre-teen it didn't feel that bad.

Now if you're talking about a revolver or derringer that is a different story. My single shot derringer leaves bruises after 20 rounds or so.

[Cluster Bomb]

if she has a bad hand i would look into a mossberg 500 but with a pistol grip and a fore grip on the slide, that way she can hold it close to her rather than away. this option is available in a 12g platform aswell by buying after market parts. A 12g shotgun will be heavyer but putting a pistol stock and a fore grip on it will make it easyer to handle (btw never put a shotgun with just a pistol grip up to your face to shoot, even with a foregrip)

of course you have to worry about after shooting the gun. you dont want to put the wife off guns by getting her stung by recoil, even with a bad hand.

You could look into a .25 pocket pistol, its very light weight doesnt have a kick to it its simular to a 22.

avoid .380 pistols, as most of them are small framed and kick is hard on them for most women, with a bad hand this could exacerbate the issue.

you could also look into a .22lr pistol (that looks like a bigger gun and not like a common 22 like Ruger Mk2, buckmasters, single six, etc) they will be lite and she could shoot it one handed witout hurting her self.

if you want a rifle/shotgun platform you can pick up some lightweight carbine platformed longguns (pistol cal rifles in a short barrel platform) the recoil would be less than a riffle or shotgun, small enough length to manage, optimum distance is at your intended use.

the 410 is a viable home defense round, i have seen a SXS 410 shotgun that was customized down to a "sawed off" length for $100. the recoil will be a little harder than normal. But the 410 recoil isnt that bad, bigger than a 22, smaller than a 20g smaller than a .45acp carbine

[oneounceload]

Unless the two of you are going to do a lot of training, you might be better off with a good dog, like a German Sheperd

[Pete D.]

With a pump gun, you can download a 12ga to a .410 load Can you? Safely?
Interesting idea. I do not know, however, of any data for 12 gauge loads of 1/2oz to 11/16ths oz of shot at 1135fps. There are 3/4 oz loads but they are at higher velocities (and increased recoil).
Pete

[rcmodel]

77 years old and never owned a gun before?
Just my wise $.02 on the real world and we don't need another gun accident!
you might be better off with a good dog, like a German Sheperd
What they said.

I'm almost 70 and have been deeply into guns my whole life.
So don't take this wrong.

In my opinion, at 77, it's getting a little too late to start serious training to use a gun well enough & safe enough for home defense now.

I would suggest a industrial size can of pepper spray for your wife, and yourself.
Keep one handy by the door, and another in the bedroom.

Then if one of you do have a "senior moment" with it, it won't kill one of you, or one of the cops you call to help you.

rc

[rajb123]

I would not worry too much about the gun fitting your wife since, if it is intended to be used in home self defense, it will likley be shot from the waist and not from your wife's shoulder.

If she intends to become a proficent bird hunter, or target trap/skeet shooter, then she should get a gun that fits correctly.

I would suggest a 20ga instead of a 410. A pump gun is a classic home self defense gun. You can probably get a used pump at a pawn shop for under $200.

shot shells are extra.

[JShirley]

jimmysadd,

The .410 has very little recoil in a longarm (shotgun or rifle).

I do have suggestions that I feel are all better choices, with little recoil when fired from a rifle:

.22 Magnum
9mm carbine (but not a Kel-Tec: they actually have heavy felt recoil)
.40
.357 Magnum
5.45x39mm
.223
7.62x39mm

Any of these from a rifle or carbine should have extremely manageable recoil. If you're someplace where you can easily have it- such as your home- a shotgun or rifle should always be chosen for defense. For most people, this is partially because rifles and shotguns are usually much more powerful than handgun cartridges. It's still true even when you're using handgun cartridges, though, because it's much easier to learn to hit your target consistently when you have a stock and a longer sight radius. Firing from the hip is bad practice, and mostly works well in movies.

The popular Ruger 10/22 was made in .22 Magnum. If that was still available, it would be my first suggestion for your situation. Ruger also made 9mm and .40 carbines. Once again, those are no longer available.

You didn't mention finances. If funds aren't a concern, an AR15-style carbine like this Stag Arms (http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=206) is easy to teach an inexperienced shooter to use well at close range. The adjustable buttstock would also make it easy for a very short-statured person to use without difficulty. .223 ammunition is readily available, and many different commercial rounds are excellent choices for home defense, with extremely rapid expansion and limited penetration. .223 has very little recoil from a rifle.

Saiga makes carbines in .223/5.56x45mm, as well as the slightly less powerful 5.45x39mm (http://legionusainc.com/iz-240-saiga-rifle-5.45-x-39.html) cartridge. These are quality firearms, but the stock length may be too long to fit your wife, and perhaps, you.

There are single-shot firearms available in good calibers, but they usually require cocking just before firing, and so, may not be good choices for someone with a bad hand.

Suggestions:

used Ruger 9mm or .40 Carbine
used Marlin Camp 9
used Ruger 10/22 .22 Magnum
AR15 Carbine in 5.45x39, 5.56x45mm

IF your wife can pull the trigger of a double-action revolver without difficulty, then the best choice you can find may be the Rossi Circuit Judge (http://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=212&category=15&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=). It is not too heavy. It has a nice short stock. It has a nice fiber optic sight to catch light in dim settings. Loaded with .45 Colt Silvertips, and with reasonable practice, this should be an extremely effective home defense piece for someone who can't stand heavy recoil.

John

[btg3]

Can you? Safely?
Interesting idea. I do not know, however, of any data for 12 gauge loads of 1/2oz to 11/16ths oz of shot at 1135fps. There are 3/4 oz loads but they are at higher velocities (and increased recoil).
Pete

I was shooting defensive shotgun matches last year and a friend handed me a couple of 1/2 loads (#9) in 12ga. He gave me the recipe and I was in business for myself enjoying lower cost and lower recoil. (But 7/8oz loads were still needed to knock down the steel targets, so I loaded some of those, also.)


There seems to be 2 schools of thought on custom shotshell loads:
1. If it's not published data, you can't do it safely.
2. You can safely develop custom loads, using proper methodology.

I subscribe to the latter as well as to "bird shot is for birds/clays". 4 pellets of 00 Buckshot would be the 1/2 oz weight equivalent for the #9 shot that I've loaded in 12ga. It would stack 1-on-3 and depending on how it patterned, I might look at other options (such as 6 pellets for the 3/4oz load which you have mentioned).

[PRM]

Got a double barrel derringer - American Derringer Model 1 - that is in 45LC/.410.

It fires a 2.5 inch .410 with .000 Buck that I find very manageable. Field loads are really light and make short work of snakes and such up close.

Not for your intent or purposes (derringer) - but, its not a bad round. Out of a long gun it would be very comfortable to shoot.

[jmr40]

I ran some recoil numbers through a recoil calculation program a while back and saved some of the results. These numbers are with buckshot or typical hunting loads.

A 7.5 lb 12 ga ~17 ft lbs recoil
A 6.5 lb 20 ga ~ 19 ft lbs recoil
A 6.5 lb 410 ~ 10 ft lbs
A 7.5 lb 243 ~10 ft lbs
A 7.5 lb 308 ~16 ft lbs
A 7.5 lb 30-06 ~20 ft lbs
A 7.5 lb AR-15 ~3.5 ft lbs.

A lot depends on the guns weight. Notice that the lighter 20 ga acutally recoils more than a 12 with buckshot loads. I calculated the 410 at 7.5 lbs, but most would actually weigh less than a typical 20 ga. I'd suspect recoil to actually be closer to the 12 and 20 if you start shooting them through a 5 lb gun.

If price is not a huge consideration an AR carbine is the best choice. Prices now are well under $800. With careful shopping you can come in around $650 OTD.

[JShirley]

Exactly. The .223 AR carbine is an extremely effective, low recoil defensive firearm.

I would only suggest the Circuit Judge Tuffy if you or your wife are daunted by the complexity of the AR (which really isn't THAT much), AND she can handle a double-action trigger pull.

The .410 is a pretty poor choice for a dedicated defensive piece. If you go with the Circuit Judge, use .45 Colt Silvertips, NOT. 410.

John

[JohnBT]

A Remington Model 1100 in .410 weighs 6.25 pounds and the gas action softens the kick. I don't know if you can find one to try, but it might be worth asking around.

My Winchester Model 37 .410 single shot weighs about 6 pounds (and doesn't have a pad on it) and will give you a little jolt compared to the Model 1100.

The Model 1100 in 12 ga. weighs about 8 pounds.

http://remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-1100/model-1100-sporting-series.aspx

[theCan]

Yeah. An auto shotty in 410 would be the ticket.

[Gordon]

AFTER they get the manual of arms down and get some training with range time. It's not like they can take one off the rack and be anything but a danger. IF they have a place to shoot it on paper (at least) and be taught the 4 RULES and learn how to safely operate it and store it!:banghead:

[Duble Naught Spy]

A nice .410 double, either full length or coach. Makes a nice wall hangar until needed.;)

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm gonna agree with oneounceload's suggestion of a good dog. I hope you don't take it the wrong way, but guns in untrained hands would be as much a liability as a help to you.

[Diver9543]

I agree with a lot that has been said about the 410 shotguns. Youth models would be a good choice. As a start, I would suggest a trip to a Local Gun Store and see what is a available. Take your time and shop around. In the mean time get a couple cans of a good wasp spray. They have a reach of up to thirty feet and are simple to use. A shot of that in someone's face is a strong deterent. Followed with a baseball bat to disable and you are done. The cans of wasp spray can be set around the house and non will be the wiser. Just my 2 cents.

[gp911]

77 with a bad hand and no experience changes everything. I'd go with a reliable .22 semi-auto with quality ammunition. With a little training she can light a bad guy up with a half dozen quick hits to the face/neck/torso and send him the other direction or drop him in his tracks. Plus with the low recoil she can stay in the fight much longer than if she is armed with a gun she can't fire more than a couple times without pain.

[jimmysadd]

thanks for all the comments.i am 77 but not interested in a gun for myself. I have a
failing heart and i'm interested in her self defence after I'm gone.I did buy a .223 cal. ar15 style gun shoots 30 rounds but it"s too heavy for her to handle.If she gets something she will shoot,I'll take her to a range couple times a month.she is 60 and still works everyday

[theCan]

The AR is too heavy? Well. Downgrade to a GI 20 rounder and see if taking a few ounces off helps. Otherwise I have to say you're limited to a .22 LR. The marlin 795 is one of the lightest semi autos that comes to mind. It's 4.5 pounds and has a 10 shot magazine. No reliable hi caps are available for it, but at least she should be able to hold it.

Ruger has a 10/22 Compact that also weights 4.5 pounds, if you can find one. The regular 10/22 is 5-6 pounds, not much lighter than the AR.

[Gordon]

put a 20 round mag in the AR and a collasped stock (esp if 4'11") and lighten it up! Aren't gonna get any lighter than an AR without stuff on it. Actually a good choice.

[gp911]

An old Nylon 66 would be great too, holds 12 rounds and weighs 4lbs, can fire very rapidly, I love mine.

[fallout mike]

My 6 year old has the Rossi .22/.410 combo. The .410 even with bird shot kicks like my Mossberg 12 gauge.

[Deltaboy]

A Marlin Model 60 the older ones will hold 18 rounds of 22 LR HP ammo and spit them out in under 5 seconds if you want to.

[76shuvlinoff]

A Marlin Model 60 the older ones will hold 18 rounds of 22 LR HP ammo and spit them out in under 5 seconds if you want to.

yep!

[precisionrifle14]

I would suggest getting a polymer lower receiver from New Frontier Armory. This would help save a lot of weight over a standard receiver. You can find them here:
http://www.lw15.com/index.php

And then a lightweight hand guard like this would help some also. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=30921/avs|Make_3=AR-15zz1zzM4/Product/AR-15-M16-M4-CARBINE-HANDGUARD

You could also take the gun to a local gunsmith and describe your problem, ask if they could help you make the gun as light as possible, and they can probably help.

[gatorjames85]

If an ar-15 is too heavy, a .410 isn't going to be light enough. If she isn't trained to use whatever she gets, it will be useless or dangerous if she actually tries to shoot someone with one. Regardless of what you do gun-wise, I would also recommend a good dog, as many others have. A smart, loyal dog can do some amazing things to protect the house. I have a 15 1/2 year old mutt that can tell who is at the door by sniffing at the edges. Back in her prime, she chased an intruder out of our garage way before I could get there (both running down the stairs). She also went after some perv flashing my wife and chased him off. If my wife had let go of the leash, she really could have done her job. :evil:

[dober83]

My gf is small, blonde and cute. She is home alone more often than not. She is also terrified of guns and will not even shoot my semi auto 22. I don't know if it is legal in your municipality or not (in many they are not, sadly) but I got a big, red nosed pit bull. She is great with the kids and is a hell of a deterant to anyone coming to the house. Some people will not even come in the house when we're home. I think pits have gotten a bad rap but it really works in my favor.

As for the original question of 410 recoil, A 410 is not a 22 and it does have a recoil. As a larger person, it's hard for me to comment on it but don't expect it to be as mild as a 22.

[fallout mike]

+1 for the pit. Excellent guard dog and if raised from a pup with your children they will violently protect them from anything.

[BoltActionPrepper]

i'd say go with a ruger 10/22 as well... you can buy 25 round mag's from ruger and the hyper-velocity hollowpoins available are nothing to sniff at... for an older lady who wont be shooting past 30-40 yards this would make her much more potent than a .410... plus there is 0 recoil and even the premium ammo is cheap enough for her to get alot of trigger time and practice operating the controls... with 25 rounds of .22lr she could draw down on a heavy and fire until he flees or quits kickin... whatever route you take, good luck and god bless.

[JShirley]

Grendal P-30

Not really an option, since not only have they not been made in years, but when made, not as many were built as other carbines mentioned in thread.

The Kel-Tec PMR-30, on the other hand, is current manufacture. If she can handle the noise...

John

[MedWheeler]

So, guys, at what age is it considered inappropriate to consider a firearm for lawful personal and home defense? I didn't know there was one, but I'm surprised at the number of respondents telling him to keep away from guns.
I see from a later post she has acquired a Taurus PT-22 to learn with, and has not yet shot herself or her husband.

[oneounceload]

So, guys, at what age is it considered inappropriate to consider a firearm for lawful personal and home defense? I didn't know there was one, but I'm surprised at the number of respondents telling him to keep away from guns.
I see from a later post she has acquired a Taurus PT-22 to learn with, and has not yet shot herself or her husband.


When the OP says this:


i'm looking for a gun for my wife home defence. she's 4 ft 11 in tall and has a bad hand. i never had a gun i'm 77. the way the world is now. maybe i need one

[theCan]

He also said she doesn't have the strength to lift the AR-15.

[oneounceload]

I'm still thinking German Shepherd and pepper spray, coupled with one of those "life line" type devices that instantly connects you with folks who can summon emergency responders

[seeker_two]

A double-barrel shotgun in .410 seems like the answer....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=294206594

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=294197572

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=293898551

[rcmodel]

This is the correct answer!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8252869&postcount=9

rc

[Gordon]

+1 on dat RC. And I feel for the guy!