[PTMCCAIN]

The myth I'm busting in this video series is that you don't have to aim a shotgun but can simply Rambo it from the hip.

Based on comments received, I shot a "Chapter Two" showing an example of hip shooting and aimed shooting, using 00 Buck.

In a self-defense situation, when you are using 00 Buck, inside your home, where you do NOT want stray pellets penetrating into other rooms, or even other houses, you must aim your shotgun, that is, shoulder it and sight it, not simply rely on point-shooting from your hip.

So, here you go. As far as I'm concerned the myth is busted.

What do you think? Take a look and let me know.

"You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnEf0XplJu0)

[rcmodel]

As far as I'm concerned the myth is busted.
As far as I'm concerned, it was busted in 1952 when I was 8 years old and learned to hunt quail with a shotgun.

rc

[Skribs]

Rc, why do so many people assume you can just hipfire? I've had many people (who, based on their previous occupation as LE or Military...actually one was both - he was a MP) who say "just get a shotgun for HD because you just point in their general direction and you're going to hit."

OP: What I would have said instead of "people might say if you're practiced, then you might do better, but I look at it as a high stress situation" is "people might say if you practiced, you could do better, so if you can do better - post a video from 15 feet shooting 00B from the hip."

Also, some of those shots, if aimed for the chest, would have still hit the gut. But gut shots aren't known for quick stop, COM or headshots are. At least you would have still done something to the target.

I do agree that this is a much better representation of what would happen. Maybe part 3 could include humanoid posters instead of a square target? Especially since we're talking about home defense, it would show exactly what you would hit in the given situation.

[PTMCCAIN]

Good suggestions, I might do that.

[Owen Sparks]

I can actually shoot a shotgun from 'the hip' (tucked under my arm) but I still AIM it.

No, I can't shoot skeet this way but I can hit stationary targets at ten yards and fan down a row of pepper poppers fast enough to win at local tactical shotgun matches using this method. I "aim" with a 20" long iron sight in my peripheral vision, (the barrel). Even though both of my eyes are on the target I see that long black thing pointing in a direct line towards it. This is not really any different than sighting down a pool cue. As long as I am on a reasonably level surface shooting at something roughly chest high, I do just fine. That being said, this is still a STUNT and in a real world combat situation I would shoulder the gun if I had the choice. The only alternitive would be in extremly close quarters where weapon retention was paramount. BTW I have 30+ years experience point shooting a shotgun and do not reccomend it for the average shooter. If you wish to try mount a laser and use it to see if you have the aptitude to point shoot before wasting a case of shells to find out that you don't.

[PTMCCAIN]

Well said, thanks.

[firesky101]

I agree that the advice that just point it in their general direction is pretty bad. That being said some shotguns really work better from the hip. When I was about 8 one of my fathers friends handed me a PGO Mossberg 500 in 20ga. I tried to shoot it by sighting down the barrel. Bad idea, got a bloody nose for that learning experience.

[JohnnyK]

aim in general direction would work in a hallway...

[Skribs]

Yes, fire, but most people consider PGO shotguns only useful for door breaching.

A laser isn't really "general direction" shooting (think we found a term to separate "point" i.e. using fit and 0-1 sight planes vs. "aim" using 2+ sight planes and "general direction" for what the myth is about), you're aiming by cheating. I am of course kidding when I say "cheating".

[PTMCCAIN]

Skribs, well said. I thought the mention of a PGO shotgun was a bit of humor, perhaps it was not.

And as for a laser aiming system, that makes a lot of sense and would be a great way to assure accuracy when you might not be able to get it up to your shoulder.

[JohnBT]

"why do so many people assume you can just hipfire?"

Because some people can. I've seen it, but I'm no good at it. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

John

[oneounceload]

"why do so many people assume you can just hipfire?"

Because some people can. I've seen it, but I'm no good at it. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

John

Seems to apply especially to those who play Call of Duty and similar games

for those of us in the real world, it really does not apply

[PTMCCAIN]

You'd be amazed, or maybe not, how people are trying to argue that based on their great skill at knocking clay birds to bits with BB loads from their trap guns they could easily get every 00Buck pellet on center mass in a high-stress HD situation.

Oh, well.

[JohnBT]

Nobody said it was easy, just not impossible to learn with enough talent and practice.

Oh well.

John

[Skribs]

Nobody said it was easy

Actually, a lot of people said it was easy, hence the myth.

[mac66]

Good video. Thanks for doing that.

[JohnBT]

"Actually, a lot of people said it was easy"

Looks like we don't know the same people or read the same books. I've never heard anybody say it was easy. I don't know anybody who plays video games either, so maybe that's the problem.

I remember Bob Brister writing about an instructor of his back in the '50s - Grant Ilseng - taking limits of ducks and doves shooting from the hip. Those are the kinds of books I like to read. Of course, then there was the guy (what the heck was his name anyway) who was known to drop five quail with five shots on a single flush shooting a pump gun from the shoulder. Okay, I looked it up, it was Rudy Etchen. I know they practiced a lot, but they must have started with right combination of genes, too.

John

[Skribs]

It's not just video games, but movies and such, too. My coworker is ex Army and he's said the same thing. The myth is that you should get a shotgun for HD, because you don't even need to aim the shotgun - just point it in the general direction of the attacker and pull the trigger, and you're bound to hit them. The "cone of death" if you will.

Why do you think most pages which talk about shotguns have to start off by saying "its not a cone of death". It's because the layman thinks that it is, from movies, games, and the myth that those have created.

[firesky101]

Skribs, well said. I thought the mention of a PGO shotgun was a bit of humor, perhaps it was not.

And as for a laser aiming system, that makes a lot of sense and would be a great way to assure accuracy when you might not be able to get it up to your shoulder.
Well it was certainly funny, but it happened. So it was not very humorous to me at the time.

[Woodyard]

I like the movies where you take out bad guys from the hip and make whole convoys of trucks explode at the same time. Pardon my dumb, but what's a PGO shotgun?

[firesky101]

Pistol Grip Only=PGO

[Dave McCracken]

Actualy, I'd trust a veteran trapshooter's ability to put a load of buck on target more than that of some newer shooter still working on his/her first 1000 shells.

Use begets expertise. I'm not saying that trap is good training for combat, but it helps to have lots of empty hulls on your backtrail.

JohnBT, Grant Ilseng made both Trap and Skeet All American teams in the SAME YEAR.

Rudy Etchen, in his long career, won the events at The Grand in every slot from Sub Junior to Senior Veteran.

Neither were close to average shooters, having ability, talent and committment well past what most of us can come up with.

And my guess is while neither, TTBOMK, ever was in a firefight, they both would have a better chance of survival wielding,say, an 870 than most of us with similar experience.

[Skribs]

I have never seen the acronym TTBOMK before.

[oneounceload]

To The Best Of My Knowledge

[oneounceload]

You'd be amazed, or maybe not, how people are trying to argue that based on their great skill at knocking clay birds to bits with BB loads from their trap guns they could easily get every 00Buck pellet on center mass in a high-stress HD situation.

Oh, well.

Your snarkiness aside, someone who has shot a lot of Clay targets knows stress and how to handle it.

(BTW, just for your education, folks don't shoot BB's at clay targets. It might help to use the right nomenclature if you're trying to put someone down).... ;)

[JohnBT]

"Neither were close to average shooters, having ability, talent and committment well past what most of us can come up with."

That's my point. Hip shooting isn't a myth, it's a skill.

Is the 4-minute mile a myth because only a small group of well trained, highly talented people can run it? No. Neither is accurate hip shooting.

Is hip shooting the best technique to use? I don't think so at all. But it's no myth.

The moon is made of green cheese. That's a myth.

[Skribs]

John, there are a lot of people out there who tell people "just get a shotgun for HD, because all you have to do is point it in their general direction." Anyone who knows anything about shotguns knows they don't make a cone of death, but a lot of people who think they know about guns think that a shotgun does.

Whether or not you know these people, it doesn't matter. I've heard it plenty of times growing up (mainly from guys my age who play video games) and I've heard it plenty of times from others to know the myth is fairly prevalent with a lot of people. I've read enough posts and guides saying "it doesn't create a cone of death" that the authors have obviously heard this myth a lot, too.

I'm not saying that someone with the training and innate skill can't do it. What I am saying is the layman probably can't, and the myth is that he can.

[PTMCCAIN]

Skribs, thanks. Some people are simply refusing to see the point and want to argue about hip shooting/point shooting, etc.

Thanks for trying to bring some reality to the conversation.

:banghead:

[oneounceload]

And you're trying to make your view sound like gospel truth - whatever dude

[huntsman]

You'd be amazed, or maybe not, how people are trying to argue that based on their great skill at knocking clay birds to bits with BB loads from their trap guns they could easily get every 00Buck pellet on center mass in a high-stress HD situation.

Oh, well.
you won’t let that go will you? SD or HD doesn't just exist in the taci-cool world, folks have been protecting the homestead and themselves with a shotgun years before the tactical crowd came along.

[MCgunner]

And this is why PGOs are stupid. :D

However, I still get into the semantics. I don't aim a shotgun, I POINT...all-be-it, from the shoulder with a proper fitting shotgun. :D There are no sights on my shotguns, just a rib to look down while I'm pointing it.

I cannot understand the PGO thing. I don't even try to, really. I think it's a hollywood cool thing, kinda like Steven Segall firiing two MAC 10s full auto, one in each hand. I've fired a full auto Cobray, that don't work either. :rolleyes:

[MCgunner]

Oh, BTW, I point shoot pistols and revolvers rather well with lots of practice. I do hold them up mid chest while doing so, not Matt Dillon style. Much past 7 yards and I revert to the sights. I really haven't TRIED to shoot from the hip with a shotgun, don't see the reasoning and it might just hurt with a 12 gauge. I'd rather shoulder mount the gun and point it like I do with birds. I know I can hit post haste that way. It's why God created the shotgun with a stock and no sights in the first place. :D

[PTMCCAIN]

If you are pointing it, you are aiming it.

[oneounceload]

If you are pointing it, you are aiming it.

Nope - you can't make that argument work here any better than you tried to on TFL

[LeonCarr]

I shoot mostly buckshot and slugs out of shotguns, and mine are aimed just like rifles except the rear sight on a shotgun with just a front bead is your eye.

I don't buy into the whole shotguns are pointed thing. IMO/IME you are still aiming a shotgun when leading a moving target either in the air or on the ground, you are just aiming at a point beyond the target on its anticipated path.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[MCgunner]

When I'm wing shooting, I never really even notice the shotgun, is a blur in my visual reference. That's why it's fast and that's why I call it "point" rather than aim. If the gun fits you (very important), you just look where you wanna shoot and the gun practically points itself. I'm concentrating on the bird, not the gun. I could not do this with rifle sights on the gun, would have to aim it and that would be way too slow for my liking. YMMV

I think we're arguing semantics, really.

[Skribs]

MCGunner, that's still a lot different than just advising someone "get a shotgun so you don't have to aim." You KNOW where the pellets are going to go; you're not guessing where the pellets are going to go.

[Skribs]

Maybe we ought not use "point" when discussing this, because "point" means different things to different people.

Hip Shooting - firing from the hip (or from the shoulder, but not using the fit of the gun to assist in aiming) to put the muzzle in the general direction of the target.
Fit Shooting - using the fit of the shotgun and your experience with the platform to put the muzzle on target
Bead Shooting - using the fit of the shotgun and only a front sight to aim the shotgun.
Aim Shooting - using multiple sight planes or optics to aim the shotgun.

[JohnBT]

"If you are pointing it, you are aiming it."

No. Not even close. Not at a laterally moving target. Or a rising target. Or a falling target.


"you are still aiming a shotgun when leading a moving target either in the air or on the ground, you are just aiming at a point beyond the target on its anticipated path"

If you are looking at the moving clay/bird as you should be (the leading edge or beak in fact) you certainly aren't looking down the barrel and aiming. You can't be aiming down the barrel because the barrel has to be pointing ahead of the moving target. I suppose you could aim down the barrel at a point in space ahead of the moving target, but that's not reliable.

I'm going to start quoting Brister's book any minute now for those who aren't familiar with it. Or you could buy it.

www.amazon.com/Shotgunning-The-Science-Bob-Brister/dp/0832918407


"John, there are a lot of people out there who tell people "just get a shotgun for HD, because all you have to do is point it in their general direction.""

I've been shooting since the mid-1950s and I've never met one. There must not be too many of them out there.

[Skribs]

Well, I've met plenty. The fact you haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Dave McCracken]

Dealing with that "You do not have to aim with a shotgun, just point in the general direction" mentality put me on a path that led me here.....

People like that exist, and get the wrong people killed.

Let's define a few things....

AIMING. The focus is on the front sight.

POINTING The focus is on the target.

Pros/Cons.....

Aiming, slightly, repeat, slightly slower in trained hands, better accuracy.

Pointing, slightly faster, again slightly, and slightly less accurate.

EACH of us should try both methods and go with what works with our use environments and skillsets....

[lobo9er]

Here's what I posted on youtube.
my 2 cents :) with some practice even you can get better lol j/k but I dont think anyone will argue that shouldering your shotgun is a better idea. So its a good video to argue your point and by the way nice shotgun always wanted a M3 myself. I think what also can taken from your video is that you dont need to be as precise with a shotgun, one shot with that particular buck shot covered the whole 6 inch target.

[lobo9er]

I havent read through this thread yet but my guess, if it hasnt happened already, the PGO/AntiPGO crowd will be here soon

[crazyjennyblack]

It's just me, but I suspect that the general public's acceptance of these myths is enhanced by the lack of "sights" on most shotguns. (In making this statement, I define "sights" in the mind of the public as front and rear in the style of a rifle. I define "most" as being over 51%. Yes, I am aware that beads are sights. )

Placing rifle sights on a an 18" or 20" shotgun makes sense to me for HD, especially if they have tritium. In my personal experience (again, not much of a measure) it also seems to encourage novices to make use of the sights, rather than try that funky TV stuff. Sights seem to say "aim me" at least on a shotgun.

Not sure that rifle-style sights would be useful on a trap gun, but there are other folks on this forum more knowledgable than I to answer that question....


**** and please for the love of all that is holy, let's not beat the PGO horse to death again in this thread!!!****

[MCgunner]

Pointing, slightly faster, again slightly, and slightly less accurate.

I would disagree with this. When I learned the importance of shotgun FIT and started disregarding the bead (don't even have a bead on a couple of my shotguns) and just looking at the target, I started shooting a lot higher percentage on doves AND clays. YMMV, but if you try focusing on the bird and not the bead, and if your gun fits you well, I think you'll find the same thing works for you.

This is one reason I find all those tacticool pistol grip folders or collapsibles with gawd awful cheek weld/fit abhorrent to my way of shooting a shotgun. The stock must FIT me for me to shoot the gun well. I figured this out quite some time ago and have shot a LOT better ever since. :D

[MCgunner]

BTW, I know how to aim a rifle. I can use rifle sights. I also know it's a lot harder to hit a running rabbit with a .22 than a good shotgun even though the shot pattern ain't that wide out at 15-20 yards. It's because I have to AIM the rifle. In the "shoot where you look" school in Houston, they take the sights off a Daisy Red Rider and teach you to hit an aspirin in the air with the BB by "shooting where you look". I've not tried that, need to get me a BB gun and have it custom stocked. LOL. Yeah, right....:D

[Owen Sparks]

At across the bedroom distances shotguns typically throw a pattern about the size of your fist. Down a hallway or across a large faimley room the pattern will be no larger than a dinner plate.

[Dave McCracken]

One key word, MC, is slightly.

Another, fit. We agree there.

Apples to apples, my definitions apply, IMO. However, some folks (including you possibly) may find pointing close enough in accuracy the differences do not matter.

[Skribs]

Dave, I also think practice makes a difference on what is slight and what is more than a slight difference. For me, fit shooting (using my earlier definition) wouldn't be faster or more accurate, because I haven't practiced it and all and I have no experience with clays. I'd be much more confident using the sights.

[oneounceload]

Some folks gets it, some just do not

[Fred Fuller]

Nope.

Some people just don't get it.

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/SwatKid.jpg

- from Radley Balko at http://www.theagitator.com/2012/06/21/morning-links-674/ with the caption Photo to your right was sent by a reader, who says it’s from a summer police camp for kids in Cumberland, Maryland.

[PTMCCAIN]

A summer police camp for kids, followed by a camp experience in the hospital.

[MCgunner]

Maybe he's got a tear gas load in there, something with soft recoil. I hope, for his sake, it's not a slug. :D

[Skribs]

It looks like he's pointing it down the street, so unless they set up a nice backstop in the middle of the road, I'm going to wager that the shotgun isn't loaded.

[oneounceload]

Maybe he will be breaching his house front door as well.........

What a poor example to show the world and kids who want to shoot or become LEOs

[huntsman]

Nope.

Some people just don't get it.

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/SwatKid.jpg

- from Radley Balko at http://www.theagitator.com/2012/06/21/morning-links-674/ with the caption Photo to your right was sent by a reader, who says it’s from a summer police camp for kids in Cumberland, Maryland.
Tacti-cool at any age? pull the trigger with that hold and get a Raspberry under the eye.

[firesky101]

Yup, I imagine that is about what I looked like, about the right age too. Take off the gear though, I was probably wearing my fishing vest. More than one lesson learned that day, when people snicker while handing you things, stop and think first.