The 1911...I just don't get it.


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StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 09:16 PM
I really tried. I've given this gun so many chances. It's the pistol that American men are SUPPOSED to love. And I don't. I just don't. I won't begrudge anybody their choice, their passion, or their love. I'm glad there's so much love for this pistol, it helps keep shooting relevant and the historical connection is cool as well.

Years ago I bought a Kimber Custom II, an incredibly accurate gun with a myriad of problems...I ended up selling it at a loss. I've shot my uncle's 1970s vintage Colt Gold Cup. Fun gun that looks great. It functions fine but I don't really get what's so "gold" about this cup. I shot a rattletrap 1950s vintage 1911-A1. It was cool for historical value. Tiny sights and malfunctions galore. (to be fair, probably not the gun's fault, as it hadn't been very well cared for)

Bottom line, I just don't get that "magic" sensation that so many people seem to get when they hold/fire a 1911 pistol. That feeling happens to me when I take hold of my Glock 17 or my Dad's Browning Hi-Power. Those guns feel and shoot perfectly...FOR ME.

I've tried, and I it just ain't happening. A long time ago I learned that there are some things you just can't force in life. One of them is pistol preference. Anyhow, just my two cents. Shoot what you like. What I like just happens to be things other than the 1911.

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coop2564
June 17, 2012, 09:33 PM
To each his own! I do not like the plastic glocks or M&P's and such! The browning HP is a fine gun and I love my 1911's. Best of luck with what works for u.

StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 09:44 PM
I just wanna spread the love. Glockers and 1911 fiends can peacefully co-exist, even if we don't "get" each others pistols of choice.

nwilliams
June 17, 2012, 09:58 PM
Bottom line, I just don't get that "magic" sensation that so many people seem to get when they hold/fire a 1911 pistol. That feeling happens to me when I take hold of my Glock 17 or my Dad's Browning Hi-Power. Those guns feel and shoot perfectly...FOR ME.

I agree 100% about the BHP, but I disagree on the Glock. To me the BHP and 1911 feel like they just fit me and it feels like I'm holding a real gun. The Glock just doesn't point naturally to me or feel nearly as comfy in the hand and it feels cheap compared to the craftsmanship found in a nice 1911 or BHP. You're not alone however, I know many people who absolutely love the Glock and can't understand why people like the 1911. I keep trying to become a Glock owner and appreciator but every time I buy a Glock I end up being disappointed get rid of it not long after. I've owned a Glock 22, 17, 27 and I don't think I had any of them for more a couple months and my only regret is having bought them in the first place. To each his/her own I suppose.

rduckwor
June 17, 2012, 10:07 PM
Well, some people just don't like them. You've given it a fair shot. Clearly, 1911's aren't for you.

Good luck,

RMD

holdencm9
June 17, 2012, 10:08 PM
Glocks have no soul. But I won't begrudge anyone who owns/carries/uses one because "they just work." Just like I don't begrudge anyone for buying a Camry or Accord. They are tools. They just work. One is for shooting, one is for transportation from A to B. They both work. I concur. But neither make the hairs on my arm tingle.

1911's just have that x-factor. They are like that 57 Chevy or 67 Mustang. Just classic.

beatledog7
June 17, 2012, 10:13 PM
I'm not a 1911 fan either. Someday I'll probably own one, but it won't be because I love how they shoot. It'll be because I want to pass one along to the grandson I hope to have (no hurry there, dear daughter of mine).

IMTHDUKE
June 17, 2012, 10:14 PM
To each his own! I do not like the plastic glocks or M&P's and such! The browning HP is a fine gun and I love my 1911's. Best of luck with what works for u.

I agree, it's nothing to be ashamed of, that you don't "get it". There are support groups that might help.:D

StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 10:21 PM
I agree 100% about the BHP, but I disagree on the Glock. To me the BHP and 1911 feel like they just fit me and it feels like I'm holding a real gun. The Glock just doesn't point naturally to me or feel nearly as comfy in the hand and it feels cheap compared to the craftsmanship found in a nice 1911 or BHP. You're not alone however, I know many people who absolutely love the Glock and can't understand why people like the 1911. I keep trying to become a Glock owner and appreciator but every time I buy a Glock I end up being disappointed get rid of it not long after. I've owned a Glock 22, 17, 27 and I don't think I had any of them for more a couple months and my only regret is having bought them in the first place. To each his/her own I suppose.

I think the moral of the story, for both of us, is to stop trying to force it and just buy/shoot what we like. So for you, no sense in buying Glocks. And for me, no more 1911s.

Well, some people just don't like them. You've given it a fair shot. Clearly, 1911's aren't for you.

Good luck,

Thank you sir, that's the plan.

Glocks have no soul. But I won't begrudge anyone who owns/carries/uses one because "they just work." Just like I don't begrudge anyone for buying a Camry or Accord. They are tools. They just work. One is for shooting, one is for transportation from A to B. They both work. I concur. But neither make the hairs on my arm tingle.

1911's just have that x-factor. They are like that 57 Chevy or 67 Mustang. Just classic.

Maybe, but MY Glock 17, the second gun I ever bought, which has been with me since 2005, definitely has a soul. That constant companion that has never let me down. And I can shoot golf ball sized groups at 10 yards with it rapid fire at multiple targets.

drsfmd
June 17, 2012, 10:27 PM
Yup. To each their own. I can't understand why someone would ever even consider buying a Glock...

StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 10:33 PM
I love's my Glocks because I shoots them like this:


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/strikefire83/Range%20Pics/G1710Yards.jpg
Rapid fire, 10 yards, double taps to the small targets and then a single shot to the middle.

tuj
June 17, 2012, 10:58 PM
I didn't get 1911's either. I'm a bullseye shooter, new to the sport a few years ago, thinking 'really? the most accurate choice for a 45 caliber gun is a 100-year-old design'?

But it is. I challenge you to tell me another pistol capable of bullseye-accuracy, which I would define as 1.5" 10-shot group from a rest at 50 yards. Its hard to think of any. Maybe the Pardini GT-45. That's about it.

So a highly customized 1911 is a seriously accurate choice for 45 shooting, and for any major caliber for that matter. You just won't get the same level of accuracy from a Glock. That's not to say the Glock isn't a fine defense weapon.

RBid
June 17, 2012, 11:11 PM
I don't love 1911s OR Glocks. I respect them both, but I don't plan to buy either.

At the end of the day, we're all 2nd Ammendment people.

Group hug?

StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 11:14 PM
I didn't get 1911's either. I'm a bullseye shooter, new to the sport a few years ago, thinking 'really? the most accurate choice for a 45 caliber gun is a 100-year-old design'?

But it is. I challenge you to tell me another pistol capable of bullseye-accuracy, which I would define as 1.5" 10-shot group from a rest at 50 yards. Its hard to think of any. Maybe the Pardini GT-45. That's about it.

So a highly customized 1911 is a seriously accurate choice for 45 shooting, and for any major caliber for that matter. You just won't get the same level of accuracy from a Glock. That's not to say the Glock isn't a fine defense weapon.

I have no doubt that you're right about the 1911's inherent accuracy or that it stands above all others as a bullseye gun. That said, I'm about as concerned with 1.5" groups @ 50 yards out of a handgun as I am with who'll be guest starring on this week's episode of Glee.

shootniron
June 17, 2012, 11:34 PM
I know where you are coming from(albeit, from the other end of the road) as I have Glocks that I do not care for and I have no use for a BHP.

velojym
June 17, 2012, 11:38 PM
If one gun worked perfectly for everyone, the gun world would be pretty dull, IMO. I really like the 1911s, though I don't
have one right now. My XD was selected, in part, because the grip angle felt natural to me... like my old 1991a1.

HammerheadSSN663
June 17, 2012, 11:42 PM
I could never get used to how close the trigger is to the handle. always felt like I was shooting a gun designed for a 5 year olds hand. Its almost like you are pinching the trigger instead of squeezing it. I like a trigger that's out there another 1/3 or 1/2 inch that I can actually pull.

56hawk
June 17, 2012, 11:46 PM
I totally agree. I own six 1911's, well technically two 1911's and four 2011's, and I don't get people's fascination with them. A lot of advancements have been made in the last 100 years and there are better options for just about any use. The only thing I use 1911's for is competitive shooting. It's the most common platform with a single action trigger that can be adjusted very light.

So a highly customized 1911 is a seriously accurate choice for 45 shooting, and for any major caliber for that matter.

I think just about any single action pistol can be that accurate if you spend three grand or more having it custom built. I know a lot of world champions have used CZ pistols.

StrikeFire83
June 17, 2012, 11:47 PM
I love Springer XD pistols. I had an XD-45 Tactical that I sold off a few years back because of the high cost of .45 ammo...and I wish I had it back.

Captain Brown Beard
June 17, 2012, 11:55 PM
I'm sort of on the fence. My dad was always a 1911 guy, so I eventually bought one. I like it, it's fun to shoot, but I'm not in love with it. I do like the solid heft of an all steel gun, but I found the CZ 75 to be personally superior, albeit a different caliber. I don't know, 1911's are alright, and they can be quite accurate, but I don't think I'll ever get all hot and heavy over them.

CDR_Glock
June 17, 2012, 11:59 PM
I have 3 1911s, soon to be 4. Mine are mid level semi custom 1911s. I had more entry level pistols, and didn't care for them. I don't care for Kimber all that much.

I have 4 Glocks. I also have a SA XDM. I like the polymers, except my ex-gun...a Diamondback DB9. I shoot them all equally well.

To me, they serve a specific purpose. I shoot both types well.

It's why there are thousands of guns and combinations to choose from. Not every gun is a perfect fit for every single person.

shootniron
June 18, 2012, 12:01 AM
56hawk

I totally agree. I own six 1911's, well technically two 1911's and four 2011's, and I don't get people's fascination with them. A lot of advancements have been made in the last 100 years and there are better options for just about any use.

That is the real beauty of this whole thing, I don't have to get your fascination with other platforms and you do not have to get mine with the 1911.

Also, it is the BEST option for ME to use for the purpose that I have it for. YOU may be better served with others...and that is fine by me.

Kachok
June 18, 2012, 12:09 AM
Nothing wrong with not being in love with 1911s, I don't think they are the end all be all of handguns either, I'll take my XDm over any Wilson Combat in any real life situation. That said I have shot a 1911 that I did like (Full custom Colt build) but for what it cost I would never carry one like that.

ColtPythonElite
June 18, 2012, 12:12 AM
I own both 1911's and Glocks. I'm not crazy about either.

KAS1981
June 18, 2012, 12:15 AM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQI4XqfGUF_YD_FZ10DjKwor05weI1vF7Dt-3YmeYeneor2Tbef2dcjUat2

CmdrSlander
June 18, 2012, 12:21 AM
I think at this point, there are pistols that are better than the M1911 in almost every respect. Nevertheless it is still my favorite handgun. If only because after 100 years there isn't anything you can't do with an M1911 so long as you have money and time and expertise (or the former two and access to a good gunsmith). My M1911 is currently giving me trouble but I'll get that sorted out soon enough.

whalerman
June 18, 2012, 12:28 AM
I'm a shooter, not a gunsmith. My guns have to be reliable. That is, if I'm going to use them to defend myself. If they are range guns that I shoot for fun, then reliability isn't so important. The people who bad mouth the modern guns like Glocks and such often cite the plastic used in production. That doesn't matter to me in a gun I will use for defending myself. I can't really understand why anyone would mention it. If the gun is reliable I don't care if it is made of corn. Now the 1911's, of which I have a few, are great guns and I wouldn't give them up. But they are not as reliable as some of the new disigns. If you're a gunsmith, then fine, you can tune them and adjust here and there continually and so forth, but these guns will never be as reliable as some of the newer designs. I like 'em both. The 1911 feels wonderfull. But it is heavy and unreliable.

shootniron
June 18, 2012, 01:24 AM
whalerman

The 1911 feels wonderfull. But it is heavy and unreliable.

They are not all unreliable...despite the common consenus among many. I have been around awhile and the majority of the 1911s that I have had, have been reliable out of the box and this is across several different brands and in the mid-range as far as price...as I have never been willing to cough up the money for a custom. We cast bullets, reload and shoot competitions with these guns and I will trust any of them to defend me if called upon...and I am not a gunsmith.YMMV

And, just for the sake of the record, I have a Glock 17 in the safe that has always had it's share of malfunctions using factory ammo as we do not reload 9mm because we only have the one gun in that caliber and it is seldom shot.

Also, for the record, my CCW is a 642 in my pocket because I know that it gives me the advantage of having my hand on my gun without anyone knowing that I have it...and that means that I WILL get out of the gate first if the situation goes south.

Confederate
June 18, 2012, 01:35 AM
Look, the ultra-reliables didn't come out until the Beretta 92. Colt 1911s were not so hot out of the box and often needed/needs work before it becomes ultra-reliable.

In the first real military test, the Beretta scored an average of one malfunction out of 2,000 or so rounds, which was astounding. Next in line was the S&W 459, which malfunctioned an average of once every 952 rounds, which was still phenomenal! The Colt 1911 control gun? It failed once or twice every 100 rounds. A joke!

Since then, Sigs and Glocks, S&Ws and many others that are ultrareliables have hit the market. It's not unusual to buy a gun for $500 and to never have a jam or malfunction. You just keep shooting the hollowpoints through them and they work every time. But take a $1,200 Kimber 1911 knock-off or one of these other copies and you have to have it slicked up by a gunsmith before it becomes ultrareliable!

What I'm saying is that the Colt 1911 design is not an ultrareliable design!

I have a S&W 645 that you can get for about $475, and the thing feeds empty (sized) .45 cases! It strips them right off the top of the magazine and seats them in the chamber. Let's see a Kimber do that! And the 645 will shoot all day long without jamming.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/SW645_5.jpg

...

coalman
June 18, 2012, 02:22 AM
The 1911...I just don't get it.
I don't like pickles. It's the same thing.

shootniron
June 18, 2012, 02:27 AM
Confederate


In the first real military test, the Beretta scored an average of one malfunction out of 2,000 or so rounds, which was astounding. Next in line was the S&W 459, which malfunctioned an average of once every 952 rounds, which was still phenomenal! The Colt 1911 control gun? It failed once or twice every 100 rounds. A joke!

Just google military handgun test March 15 1911 and you will see that the 1911 fired 6000 rounds without a single malfunction. So, 2000 rounds is not so impressive for a gun in the 1980's...and this is not to disperage the M9 as it is a fine firearm.

CmdrSlander
June 18, 2012, 02:41 AM
Was the "control" 1911 in the M9 tests decades old? Because IIRC the government had not procured new M1911s since 1952.

56hawk
June 18, 2012, 11:40 AM
Just google military handgun test March 15 1911 and you will see that the 1911 fired 6000 rounds without a single malfunction. So, 2000 rounds is not so impressive for a gun in the 1980's...and this is not to disperage the M9 as it is a fine firearm.

On 15 March 1911, an endurance test was held. The test involved having each gun fire 6000 rounds, with cleaning after every one hundred shots fired, then allowing them to cool for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol would be cleaned and oiled.

I can't find the details of the 1980's trials, but I kind of doubt they cleaned the guns every 100 rounds.

kcshooter
June 18, 2012, 12:24 PM
But take a $1,200 Kimber 1911 knock-off or one of these other copies and you have to have it slicked up by a gunsmith before it becomes ultrareliable! Uh, no. That's just a foolish statement.

What I'm saying is that the Colt 1911 design is not an ultrareliable design!What I'm saying is that you are just simply incorrect. But these are our opinions.




I like 1911's.
I like Glocks but I found that I have to perform a grip reduction before they will point correctly for me.
The unnatural grip angle will not allow a Glock to give me a proper sight picture without canting my wrist forward.
That doesn't make them bad, that makes them a less than perfect choice for me.

If a 1911 fits your hand naturally, a Glock usually won't.
If a Glock fits your hand naturally, a 1911 usually won't.

Good thing there's choices out there.

dom1104
June 18, 2012, 12:26 PM
You know, all these threads about 1911 unreliability become huge yawns when you do own reliable 1911s.

I guess I dont care if anyone thinks they arent, but pushing 10k rounds in competition has convinced me, its a reliable design.

doc540
June 18, 2012, 12:29 PM
I've only owned about eight 1911's.

2 new and 6 used.

They were all totally reliable, all of them.

The only time any of them became "unreliable" was after I'd modified them.

Imagine that.

fwiw: I own and carry both 1911's and Glocks.

Beauty
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/1911/Colt%20CCO%201998/CCOf.jpg

and the Beast
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Glock%2023/Glock7.jpg

Skribs
June 18, 2012, 12:36 PM
Before I got into shooting, I'd read a lot of people talking about how comfortable single stacks were compared with double stacks. I still looked over things and thought I wanted to go with a high-capacity .40, but a coworker took me to the range. I tried his 1911 in .45, and it felt like I was holding a piece of silverware. Okay, not exactly, but it felt weird in my hand, but I still shot okay with it. I rented a XDm 40 (when it was the only .40 model in XDm) and it felt like a dream.

I believe this is because of my heavy gaming background. A double-stack feels a lot more like a mouse than a single-stack does.

holdencm9
June 18, 2012, 01:00 PM
In the first real military test, the Beretta scored an average of one malfunction out of 2,000 or so rounds, which was astounding. Next in line was the S&W 459, which malfunctioned an average of once every 952 rounds, which was still phenomenal! The Colt 1911 control gun? It failed once or twice every 100 rounds. A joke!

See attached. Very interesting read.

The "45 control" average # of rounds between malfunctions was 165 in the 1981 test and 162 in the 1984 test. In the 1984 test, the worst gun averaged 93 shots between jams, the best weapon was 467. Compare this to the Beretta which worst gun was 875 rounds between jams, the best weapon exceeded 3,500 rounds between jams. Of course, even the military tests are only so valid with the small sample size they tested. I don't think the 1911 design is unreliable, it is maybe just not AS reliable as the Beretta or Glocks.

Also interesting to note was that the 1911 aced the mud test while all the others had some jams.

Not sure if these were brand-spanking new 1911's that they were testing.

MrDig
June 18, 2012, 01:04 PM
Regarding the 1911, "If I have to explain you just wouldn't understand"

TyGuy
June 18, 2012, 01:17 PM
Shot what you like and what you can handle, darn the rest.

I prefer Glocks as my carry pistols, but I also enjoy shooting my 1911s.

Esoxchaser
June 18, 2012, 01:20 PM
I love 1911's. I like Kahrs, Sigs & HK's. You could only get me to carry a Glock if my other choice was a bag of rocks. If someone has to explain a 1911 to you after shooting one, you would never get it anyhow.

Rob G
June 18, 2012, 01:23 PM
How many times are we going to have this discussion before we all just shoot what we like and don't worry what the other guy is shooting?

Skribs
June 18, 2012, 01:28 PM
How many times are we going to have this discussion before we all just shoot what we like and don't worry what the other guy is shooting?

You know, you'd think that, but then there are the threads "what 10 guns should every person have?" 1911 often pops up.

Teachu2
June 18, 2012, 01:30 PM
I've been shooting 1911s for 35 years. The only one that was unreliable got fixed pretty easily. I can't remember the last time I've had a problem with either of my two current ones - and they are both standard-grade Colts.

Tried G17s and 19s, felt like they were from another planet, and I was all over the target with them. Then I tried a G30, and liked it enough to buy one. And a G34, and a G21. (And a M&P 9c, a Sig 20229, and a Ruger LC9.) I spent a few hundred rounds on the 34 before I found a hand position that worked well - and I'm getting pretty good with it.

I will always prefer a 1911 for target shooting, but the G30 is my CCW.

Greg528iT
June 18, 2012, 02:06 PM
I could never get used to how close the trigger is to the handle. always felt like I was shooting a gun designed for a 5 year olds hand. Its almost like you are pinching the trigger instead of squeezing it. I like a trigger that's out there another 1/3 or 1/2 inch that I can actually pull.

Actually that's part of the beauty of the 1911. You want a short trigger? Medium? Long? How about an arched main spring housing or a flat. You can mix and match the trigger and MSH to get a custom fit.

A 1911 trigger is pulled.. but it just eliminates all that pre travel. A good carry trigger is set at 4-5 pounds.. it does not go off until you reach that level of pull. My carry gun, I pull until I reach 4.5 lbs.. BANG.. lift to reset, and then another 4.5 lbs until the next BANG.

Spats McGee
June 18, 2012, 02:39 PM
I like 1911s. I really, really like them. They just feel right to me. I like the grip, I like the trigger, and I like the way they shoot. That said, I have begun to debate the possibility of buying a Glock. I will also add that while gun owners each have their own preferences, no two other guns seem to inspire the same sort of almost rabid support as the 1911 and Glock.

wojownik
June 18, 2012, 02:45 PM
I didn't "get it" either, for a long time. While I appreciated the pistol, it just seemed to be overly long and heavy, with a relatively cumbersome takedown process (compared to "modern" pistols like the Sig, etc...). The slide stop particularly vexed me.

Then the bug bit me, and bit me hard. Over the past few years, I've grown to really appreciate the 1911. Though the slide stop still vexes me. :neener:

Baba Louie
June 18, 2012, 03:04 PM
When built to original specs, and properly maintained, the 1911 goes bang with regularity.

Magazine fed semi-autos... Some like them, some don't. Good to have choices, eh?

JHenry
June 18, 2012, 04:08 PM
i wanted a 1911(still do) but i was handling a few usps at the last gunshow and they just felt right in my hand. If i come across a good deal on one i probably get it over a 1911

MoreIsLess
June 18, 2012, 05:12 PM
First off, I don't own a Glock so I am not biased toward them. However, I hear a lot of posters bashing Glocks because of the awkward, unnatural feel. When I bought my first gun, I looked at a Glock and I thought the same thing, so I didn't buy one. The Glocks I looked at were generation 3 (the gen 4 had not come out yet) and there were other guns that had more confortable ergonomics (like the Sig 226 that I ended up buying). After the gen 4 Glocks came out, I shot a couple and the gen 4 is much more pleasurable to shoot than the gen 3.

I wouldn't object to owning a Glock if it was a gen 4.

tuj
June 18, 2012, 05:18 PM
:D

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5229541/your-glock-sucks

dcarch
June 18, 2012, 05:19 PM
HERETIC!
Just kidding! :D:D:D We really can all get along... until someone asks "Glock vs. 1911." Again, just kidding. It's totally okay. Everyone has different preferences. For example, I love 1911s, but personally don't like BHPs very much. I prefer Ford trucks over Chevys. Does that make Fords better? Not at all, I simply like them better. We're all really in the same boat here anyway, because while we may disagree on models, we all love guns. Like a previous poster suggested... group hug!

StrikeFire83
June 18, 2012, 08:16 PM
Hmmm, well, as the thread starter, it was never my intention for this to be a "1911s are unreliable junk" thread. More of a "I really tried to like them but I don't but it's cool that yall do" thread.

WinThePennant
June 18, 2012, 09:28 PM
The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs that are spruced up with modern techniques that manage to respirate some life into the old horse.

The rest of us like Glocks, Sigs, XDs, etc.

If you have the bug to get a steel semi-auto in .45, then get a Sig P220.

PT92
June 18, 2012, 10:16 PM
I really tried. I've given this gun so many chances. It's the pistol that American men are SUPPOSED to love. And I don't. I just don't. I won't begrudge anybody their choice, their passion, or their love. I'm glad there's so much love for this pistol, it helps keep shooting relevant and the historical connection is cool as well.

Years ago I bought a Kimber Custom II, an incredibly accurate gun with a myriad of problems...I ended up selling it at a loss. I've shot my uncle's 1970s vintage Colt Gold Cup. Fun gun that looks great. It functions fine but I don't really get what's so "gold" about this cup. I shot a rattletrap 1950s vintage 1911-A1. It was cool for historical value. Tiny sights and malfunctions galore. (to be fair, probably not the gun's fault, as it hadn't been very well cared for)

Bottom line, I just don't get that "magic" sensation that so many people seem to get when they hold/fire a 1911 pistol. That feeling happens to me when I take hold of my Glock 17 or my Dad's Browning Hi-Power. Those guns feel and shoot perfectly...FOR ME.

I've tried, and I it just ain't happening. A long time ago I learned that there are some things you just can't force in life. One of them is pistol preference. Anyhow, just my two cents. Shoot what you like. What I like just happens to be things other than the 1911.

You're an heathen :evil: by not worshiping at the alter of one John Moses Browning!

Seriously though, I don't get it as the 1911 is sacred to me in so many ways, first and foremost being that it is so comfortable to shoot that it feels as though it's just an extension of my arm if you will (only the Browning Hi Power is even remotely similar to me perhaps with the exception of the 92)--The 1911 design is a work of art and the effectiveness of this masterpiece still rings true today over 100 years later (SWAT Teams still use it as do some SPEC OPS etc.). Analogously speaking, can you imagine if the Springfield M1903 were still in use today by a SPEC OPS Team or even general military use, sniper etc..

That being said, it's a free country (for now...) so if it doesn't work for you that's just the way it is and I respect that ;).

-Cheers

PT92
June 18, 2012, 10:23 PM
The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs...

You need to qualify this with a simple 'IMO' as there is nothing empirical in any sense whatsoever with your statement.

Ex: 1) The revolver is an out-dated design.
Ex: 2) IMO the revolver is an out-dated design.

Revolver guys will take offense at #1 but accept #2 (even if in total disagreement).

I see way too many categorical statements based solely on opinion trying to be 'spun-off' as fundamentally sound researched based facts.

-Cheers

buckhorn_cortez
June 18, 2012, 10:27 PM
You don't have to "get" what it is about a 1911. If you can't relate to the gun's design - that's fine. Find the gun you like, buy it, shoot it. I can relate - I don't "get" Glocks. There are at least four other manufacturers / designs I'd rather have than a Glock.

Armed012002
June 18, 2012, 10:30 PM
1911s made today get a bad rap because certain manufacturers (*cough* Kimber *cough*) think they can slap everything together with unskilled assemblers with no hand fitting.

People have problems with 1911s because they weren't built properly. The design is fine, it's the execution.

Unfortunately, you either need to do your own hand fitting or pay someone else a lot of money to do it for you in order to get a problematic 1911 to work properly.

Glock was designed to be put together with no hand fitting by unskilled assemblers.

That's the reason why Glocks have a reputation for reliability while 1911s have a reputation for being unreliable.

Armed012002
June 18, 2012, 10:35 PM
You need to qualify this with a simple 'IMO' as there is nothing empirical in any sense whatsoever with your statement.

Ex: 1) The revolver is an out-dated design.
Ex: 2) IMO the revolver is an out-dated design.

Revolver guys will take offense at #1 but accept #2 (even if in total disagreement).

I see way too many categorical statements based solely on opinion trying to be 'spun-off' as fundamentally sound researched based facts.

IMO, stating "IMO" is redundant.

Most of what's written on a forum such as this is opinion.

A 1911, Glock, or revolver is not your wife or significant other, so there's no sense in getting upset when someone points out its flaws.

CmdrSlander
June 18, 2012, 10:35 PM
The M1911 is a heavy and cantankerous piece of equipment.
Just like the steam locomotive.
And the Saturn V rocket.
In their time they were state of the art.
Though their times may have passed all remain awesome to behold.
And even better to operate...

TreeDoc
June 18, 2012, 10:41 PM
Made me laugh, exactly, hit the nail squarely on the head,

saturno_v
June 18, 2012, 10:43 PM
The platforml itself has a lot of history on its back however from a technological point of view there is nothing special about it...I do not love it either...I tried to find reasons to buy one but I have't found one yet....same as you....


I feel the same "magic" that many feels for the 1911 for the Beretta 92 (many Italians gun enthusiast do).....but I'm Italian born and raised (naturalized American), that pistol was service piece in the military, I grew up in the 80's when the big Beretta was the star of many blockbuster action movies (Lethal Weapon anyone???)

Nothing wrong with not being in love with 1911s, I don't think they are the end all be all of handguns either, I'll take my XDm over any Wilson Combat in any real life situation. That said I have shot a 1911 that I did like (Full custom Colt build) but for what it cost I would never carry one like that.

However, to paraphrase Kachok, despite being in love with the Beretta 92 I recognize that there are much better (read lighter, smaller) choices out there for real life situations....I'm going to buy my third 92 soon but I would never take one with me as carry piece....this is the difference btween being a fan and being a zealot!!! LOL

PT92
June 18, 2012, 10:45 PM
IMO, stating "IMO" is redundant.

Most of what's written on a forum such as this is opinion.

A 1911, Glock, or revolver is not your wife or significant other, so there's no sense in getting upset when someone points out its flaws.
We will just respectfully agree to disagree on this.

-Cheers

murf
June 18, 2012, 10:49 PM
sounds like the "harley" vs. "rice-burner" debate that's been going on forever (with a little bmw thrown in for good measure). some do one, some do the other, some do both.

knock yourselves out. it's all good for us shooters.

murf

StrikeFire83
June 18, 2012, 11:13 PM
About the ONLY 1911 that I could get myself excited about shooting would be an Ed Brown, a Les Baer, or a Wilson...just to see what all the fuss is about.

Armed012002
June 18, 2012, 11:21 PM
I doubt you'd notice a difference shooting an Ed Brown, a Les Baer, or a Wilson compared to a Colt with a trigger job.

Owning expensive brands of 1911s has less to do with shooting and more to do with appreciating fine craftsmanship.

Who here is limited by a Glock, XD, or M&P?

Unless your name is Rob Leatham, Massad Ayoob, etc., I'd call BS if you said you can outshoot a service grade pistol.

CDR_Glock
June 19, 2012, 12:17 AM
I have a Mars Armament T.H.U.G. Colt 1911 and I outshoot it with an Ed Brown Special forces.

Skribs
June 19, 2012, 12:22 AM
Most of what's written on a forum such as this is opinion.

A 1911, Glock, or revolver is not your wife or significant other, so there's no sense in getting upset when someone points out its flaws.

Except what I write. That's fact.

A lot of people get upset because they want the best, and think they have the best. If anyone points out something to the contrary, they don't like it.

wojownik
June 19, 2012, 01:05 AM
Just like the steam locomotive.
And the Saturn V rocket.
In their time they were state of the art.
Though their times may have passed all remain awesome to behold.
And even better to operate...

Or, like the '67 Ford Mustang, or the '67 Ford GT40 - both classic cars, beauties to behold, but have been surpassed in many ways with today's technology or frills. But still ... a classic like the Mustang or GT40 will stir your blood ... or you'll just see an old car.

Those classic old cars will get your from point A to point B, without the techno-frills of today's cars, but in a vintage style that will still turn heads.

And that's how I see the 1911 - accurate, reliable, no frills, does what I need it to do, and still very much a head turner.

BTW, both of my grandfathers held a 1911 in the Great War. One of my uncles had a 1911 as his sidearm during WW2, another had his 1911 during Korea and afterwards. My father carried a 1911 during his service. So, for me, the 1911 has a venerated position. Like I said in a previous post, I didn't "get it" for quite a while. I get it now...

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/viher_photos/IMG_2696.jpg
My Colt WW1 Carbonia Blue alongside my grandfather's decorations from WW1

skoro
June 19, 2012, 10:53 AM
It's OK.

Not everyone is meant to love the 1911. A handgun is a personal thing, no doubt. The one that fits me best is not likely to be your best fit. I'm old enough that the 1911 was still the service pistol when I was in the USMC and I shot it well and it's what I'm familiar with.

One of my brothers is a deputy sheriff in another state and he likes his Glock. Prior to that, he liked his Sig. I know Glocks have a great reputation for reliability and they're popular because they work well for so many. But they just don't fit my hand very well.

It's all good.

easyg
June 19, 2012, 11:25 AM
The 1911 has served my country well, but I just don't care much for them myself.

mavracer
June 19, 2012, 11:56 AM
Some don't get classic guns, others don't get classic cars. I don't get green peppers.

atomd
June 19, 2012, 12:17 PM
Unless your name is Rob Leatham, Massad Ayoob, etc., I'd call BS if you said you can outshoot a service grade pistol.

But you may find that you shoot one particular pistol far better than another. Would you shoot better groups with a single action 3 lb trigger that breaks like a glass rod or would you shoot better groups with a 12lb gritty double action pull that breaks like a boiled carrot? Sure, with enough practice you may be able to shoot both equally...but the nicer trigger will help a lot.

gym
June 19, 2012, 01:36 PM
That's why they make different colors guys. If we all liked the same thing, what would we talk about?
Usually a person likes what they shoot well. I can't see a guy saying I just love this gun, I can't hit a damm thing with it, but it's my favorite and carry it everyware.
So assuming that is not true, we usually like what we soot well, Two different type of guns there. Notice no one said anything about revolvers, if you hang around this sport long enough, everything makes a comeback, the 1911 was mostlly brought back by Kimber, that is a consenus of people s thoughts who write columns for shooting mags. For a while very few diehards were still using them, the S&W 39 and 59 series along with BHP's and PPK's were all the rage along with revolvers, like Detective specials. Then enter the Black death, the Glocks appeared, suddenlly everyone had to have 15 -20 rounds and a spare mag. Good thing we didn't know that pre 90's. And a plethora of copies based on the well recieved Glock. No more 7 roud or 8 round especially 5 or 6 round guns. Everyone was talking about multiple attackers and tacticle reloads. Then Rails, I did a post and got hammed, saying "we don't need no stinking rails" about 4 years ago. Now most manufacturers make them both ways or dropped them completelly. It's kind of like the fasion business, lets face it, if they don't keep coming out with new stuff, no one will buy more stuff. So you don't have to "get it", as there is really nothing to get, just pick what you like and use it, just like you went from stick shift to auto. It's just a sign of the times, and some guys still like what they started out shooting, because they became very good with it, and why should they switch. thank god, most of you will never have to draw your gun against another human being. I said, you, for a reason. Unfortunatelly I have had to on more than 1 occasion, and all I cared about was if the darn thing was going to fire if I had to pull the trigger. The fashion part of guns is mostlly just that, the latest style vs the original design. The rest is just a way to get us all to spend more money.

isaidme
June 19, 2012, 07:31 PM
I tried too! Ive been through several and just cant shoot them as well as other guns. It seems as though you have to spend $1200 or more to get one that a $500 anything else gets you. I recently bought an M&P 45 and replaced the striker block and sear with Apex parts and for right around $700 got a gun that was amazing.

JohnBT
June 19, 2012, 07:43 PM
"The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs "

Ah, the voice of ignorance. :)

PRM
June 19, 2012, 07:43 PM
I've been shooting 1911s since the 70s. There have been times I was heavy into that gun and .45. Everytime I've sold one - seems I always replace it.

My current 1911 is one of the new Remington R1s, awesome gun. My son wants it so I guess it too will have a new home in the near future.

Recently, I have got into Browning HPs. At least all my holsters fit:)

tuj
June 19, 2012, 07:45 PM
It seems as though you have to spend $1200 or more to get one that a $500 anything else gets you.

Try an STI Spartan. Great gun, reliable, accurate, relatively cheap.

PT92
June 19, 2012, 07:48 PM
I've been shooting 1911s since the 70s. There have been times I was heavy into that gun and .45. Everytime I've sold one - seems I always replace it.

My current 1911 is one of the new Remington R1s, awesome gun. My son wants it so I guess it too will have a new home in the near future.

Recently, I have got into Browning HPs. At least all my holsters fit:)
I understand your taste. Think about it, one could easily amass an ENTIRE firearms collection just by collecting the many classic firearms designed by the late, great John Moses Browning. I will never cease to marvel at the man's utter brilliance!

-Cheers

mavracer
June 19, 2012, 07:57 PM
I understand your taste. Think about it, one could easily amass an ENTIRE firearms collection just by collecting the many classic firearms designed by the late, great John Moses Browning. I will never cease to marvel at the man's utter brilliance!
There's nothing that you need to do with a gun that you couldn't do a good job of.

PT92
June 19, 2012, 08:19 PM
There's nothing that you need to do with a gun that you couldn't do a good job of.
You are correct Sir!

I say we start a petition drive with the absolute objective of making January 23 (JMB's Birthday) a national holiday! We can do so by starting the whole process via the honorable and well-respected THR :)!

-Cheers

1911austin
June 19, 2012, 08:21 PM
The 1911 is my favorite design, but the Glock is a close second. I would like to commend you for articulating your thoughts without being a condescending jerk to those who may not share your likes and dislikes. That seems to be a lost art these days.

Like this guy:

The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs that are spruced up with modern techniques that manage to respirate some life into the old horse.

The rest of us like Glocks, Sigs, XDs, etc.

If you have the bug to get a steel semi-auto in .45, then get a Sig P220.

76shuvlinoff
June 19, 2012, 08:21 PM
"The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs "

Ah, the voice of ignorance.

;) See sig line.

StrikeFire83
June 19, 2012, 08:30 PM
The 1911 is my favorite design, but the Glock is a close second. I would like to commend you for articulating your thoughts without being a condescending jerk to those who may not share your likes and dislikes. That seems to be a lost art these days.

Thanks. It's an insecure wiener who has to diminish other people's choices to validate his own. THR is generally free of those sorts, but they do turn up from time to time.

WinThePennant
June 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
The 1911 is my favorite design, but the Glock is a close second. I would like to commend you for articulating your thoughts without being a condescending jerk to those who may not share your likes and dislikes. That seems to be a lost art these days.

Like this guy:
And, what exactly did I say that was wrong?

Modern improvements include better sights, beavertail grip safety, and extended feed ramps (many, many others!).

kcshooter
June 19, 2012, 11:00 PM
And, what exactly did I say that was wrong?If you have to ask, you'll never know.

wlewisiii
June 20, 2012, 12:42 AM
Old thread, TL;DR.

Don't sweat it. Even John M. Browning understood it wasn't the be all, end all of pistol design. He got about half of the Hi-Power design done before he died, for ex.

I carried one for a few years thanks to Uncle Sam. I wouldn't wish a 1911 on my enemy as a result...

Girodin
June 20, 2012, 01:37 AM
Even John M. Browning understood it wasn't the be all, end all of pistol design. He got about half of the Hi-Power design done before he died, for ex.

Your evidence doesn't support your argument. You suggest the hi power was conceived because JMB saw some deficiencies in the 1911 and the hi power would be an improvement. The hi power was designed they way it was because it had to meet specific specifications of the French, specifications that the 1911 did not meet. I'm not even saying that the 1911 is better than the hi power or visa versa, rather, I'm simply pointing out that your contention misconceives history.

1911austin
June 20, 2012, 11:27 AM
And, what exactly did I say that was wrong?

Modern improvements include better sights, beavertail grip safety, and extended feed ramps (many, many others!).

It would be this:

The 1911 is okay if you like out-dated designs that are spruced up with modern techniques that manage to respirate some life into the old horse. The rest of us like Glocks, Sigs, XDs, etc.

If you have the bug to get a steel semi-auto in .45, then get a Sig P220.


The FACT of the matter is this “out-dated” design is still used by many active duty police and some elite units within our police and military forces. To imply that the 1911 is out-dated and no longer is a valid and effective fighting is pistol pure nonsense. Mine are 100% reliable and have triggers that most “modern” designs have not matched. You come off like some elitists know if all who wants to insult folks with different tastes than your own. I think people should shoot a wide range of weapons and make an informed decision on what would work best for them. They should also respect the decision others make.

As far as designs that have been spruced up;

Glocks – Now on the fourth generation

Sigs – Changed the slide designed from folded sheet metal to milled a few years back. They even got into the 1911 market.

XDs – Introduced XDMs to address perceived shortcomings of the original XDs.

I don’t have anything against the brands that I mentioned above. It was just to point out that these much younger designs have also undergone changes over the years. If you want to point out improvements to 1911s, be fair and point out the improvements that have been made to the designs that you approve.

Carter
June 20, 2012, 11:40 AM
I used to not really care for 1911's. I thought they were nice to look at and fun for the range, but nothing I'd seriously consider carrying or shell money in to.

Then I borrowed a friends for a 3 gun match. It was my first time shooting in one and I didn't have all the gear I needed. I ended up not using the sights on the 1911 about 85% of the time. I didn't need to. It just pointed so naturally for me I hit exactly what I wanted to (except for longer shots and when I got in too much of a hurry). I didn't really think about it at the time, but over the next year I kept thinking about how much I liked using the 1911 during that match.

One would think the small capacity of 8 rounds would make it impractical. Well I like the act of reloading weapons, so during the 3 gun matches I would only load 20 rounds in my AR and reload when moving at each obstacle with the 1911. Yes, it hurt my time, but it made me a lot faster at reloading as well, and it was all for fun.

Point being, I came to really love the 1911. Its got its downsides, but it has a lot of positives as well. Plus it just looks so darn good.


That said, I'd probably never pay over $1500 for one.
My STI Spartan was $600, and its proving to be one heck of a gun.

Ky Larry
June 20, 2012, 04:23 PM
As has been stated here countless times and on countless other boards, the pistols being made today are not 1911's. They are 1911 type pistols that have been tuned, tweeked, and modified. If you build a 1911 to the original specs and tolerances from the material called for and use the ammo it was designed for, you get a combat pistol. It was not designed to be a target pistol. It was not designed to be a cut down carry pistol. It was not designed to be a race gun. It was designed to be a combat pistol. The fact that the 1911 can be successfully converted into something it wasn't designed to be shows the genius of J.M.B. Kimbers, Colt Gold Cups, SIG's, and Ed Browns are nice pistols but they are not 1911s.

DC Plumber
June 20, 2012, 06:49 PM
Different strokes for different folks. Sorry to be cliche.

Like someone else said, we all support the 2nd Ammendment, that's what counts.

I've noticed my likes and dislikes change with time. Whatever you shoot, shoot it well.

I"m in a good mood tonight. Everyone, just go fondle your favorite gun, just don't let the others see what you are doing.

nebeel
June 20, 2012, 09:36 PM
I know exactly what you mean, the 1911 platform isn't my favorite either. I much prefer the CZ75 type platform.

That being said though, I won't get rid of mine :neener:

elrowe
June 20, 2012, 10:02 PM
See attached. Very interesting read.

The "45 control" average # of rounds between malfunctions was 165 in the 1981 test and 162 in the 1984 test. In the 1984 test, the worst gun averaged 93 shots between jams, the best weapon was 467. Compare this to the Beretta which worst gun was 875 rounds between jams, the best weapon exceeded 3,500 rounds between jams. Of course, even the military tests are only so valid with the small sample size they tested. I don't think the 1911 design is unreliable, it is maybe just not AS reliable as the Beretta or Glocks.

Also interesting to note was that the 1911 aced the mud test while all the others had some jams.

Not sure if these were brand-spanking new 1911's that they were testing.
Interesting read, but based on my experience with my 659 S&W over the last 24 years and tens of thousands of rounds (bought used as a police trade-in, so thousands more before I bought it), and a friend who was one of the test officers at the Army trials at Ft. Knox, Beretta was not the best option. His and my greatest complaint is the awkward safety/decoker operation. FWIW, I also carried the M9 over my 23 years (32 months in combat zones) in the Army, and had dozens of FTFs with at least four different SNs, mostly due to the horrible magazines that we were issued. I'm probably biased, but I carry a 1911 (EMP to be exact) unless I need to switch to a pocket gun.

holdencm9
June 20, 2012, 10:30 PM
Interesting read, but based on my experience with my 659 S&W over the last 24 years and tens of thousands of rounds (bought used as a police trade-in, so thousands more before I bought it), and a friend who was one of the test officers at the Army trials at Ft. Knox, Beretta was not the best option. His and my greatest complaint is the awkward safety/decoker operation. FWIW, I also carried the M9 over my 23 years (32 months in combat zones) in the Army, and had dozens of FTFs with at least four different SNs, mostly due to the horrible magazines that we were issued. I'm probably biased, but I carry a 1911 (EMP to be exact) unless I need to switch to a pocket gun.

Well, FWIW, that's your opinion, and your experience, FWIW. Let's not hijack this thread with a debate about the trials and the selection of Beretta. I only posted that attachment for comparisons to the 1911, not the S&W. But yeah, if the proper mags were issued, a lot fewer folks would complain about their M9's.

Walking Dead
June 21, 2012, 08:12 AM
I really dig the 1911. They actually remind me of the small block Chevy in that when they are built right they are tough to beat! My only complaint it the name the manufactures give them. The names are very much like sub divisions. When you look at them they look just like the one across the street or down the block but have super cool names like "Elite", "Tactical", "Ranger", "Operator", "CQB" and such.

gmh1013
June 21, 2012, 11:35 AM
IMHO a 1911 and a Glock should not even be in the same sentence together....I really really dislike them...and wonder why people pay 500 bucks for some plastic?.... But to each is own.

Greg528iT
June 21, 2012, 12:01 PM
The Chevy Small Block / 1911 analogy is the best car to gun comparison I've read yet. When assembled correctly with correct parts one will run hundreds of thousands of miles or bullets, trouble free, with proper maintenance. Put one together with poor parts or poor technique yes you'll have trouble. And I am talking about just the iron parts. NOT the electronics / induction system. Yes modern engines are more efficient, but mostly thru advanced electronic and induction. The iron parts of a glock or a 1911 are not that different.

tydephan
June 21, 2012, 12:16 PM
Personally, I like what I shoot well with.

I own Glocks, M&Ps, and 1911s. I've shot Sigs, HKs, XDs, and all sorts of other pistols. In the end, if I HAD to make a shot, I feel the most comfortable making it with the 1911. It's the pistol I shoot my best groups with on a consistent basis. It's the pistol that pulls bedside duty.

BUT...it's not the pistol that I carry daily for several reasons. The M&P gets daily carry duty because of concealment issues. And I'm "combat" accurate with the design, and feel more than comfortable with my skills with it.

It doesn't have to be either/or. Each design has it's pros/cons. Buy both. Shoot both. Love and caress both....perhaps that's going a little too far, but to each his own. :D

Dain Bramage
June 21, 2012, 12:21 PM
..the pistols being made today are not 1911's.

They might not be the United States Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911, but I think we can agree that colloquially, "1911" is considered to cover the line of pistols originating from that great gun.

It would be a long and contentuous discussion about when a gun becomes a "not 1911". I own two 1911 inspired pistols, a Star BM and a Coonan Classic, that are not 1911's. I feel that a pistol crosses the line when it loses the barrel link, grip safety, and single-stack magazine, but that's just my opinion.

Arkansas Paul
June 21, 2012, 01:13 PM
Nothing wrong with not getting it. There are a lot of guns I don't get. Like the Taurus Judge, or the Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .30 Caribine. Like you, I don't disparage people who own them, I just never will.

tomrkba
June 21, 2012, 01:38 PM
All Glock needs to do is add the 1911 trigger system to their guns for shooting nirvana :)

theQman23
June 21, 2012, 11:26 PM
I have had 4 1911's, customized 3 of them, and the 4th was a collector piece built 50 years ago. They all shot nice, but my newest one is a target master with a 3 1/2 lb trigger and a nice, tight bull barrell. etc.....

1911's are pretty. Historical. Nice triggers, (best for target only considerations imho,) but then there's the real world.

When I have to carry a gun, (on weekends when travelling for work mostly,) I want at least a 4 or 5 lb pull, to limit ad's. But because it's for self defense, I don't want to have to work a safety. I'm willing to give up the perfect trigger for self defense, because I'm not trying to make one frayed hole at 25 yards slow shooting. I'm trying to make one dead guy at probably 7-10 yards asap, and I doubt a crispy trigger is going to make the difference honestly.

I love 1911's, they are cool, but if and when I have to defend myself it'll 99% probably be with my glock 27. It's ugly, but its in a shoulder rigg, CONCEALED. It's not special, but I didn't buy it to show my range buddies. It isn't unique, or fun, or even nice, it's kind of a little plastic turd really.

But what it is, is absoutely, stone cold, dead nuts, no joke reliable, with any and ammo I feed it. It'd probably shoot a plastic snap cap it's so good. (just kidding.) But seriously, that little ugly turd has thousands of rounds through her, and I do mean thousands. Five training classes at 900-1400 rounds per 4 day class. Thousands. And I've only had 3 failure to feeds with her and they were when doing single handed off handed training drills. (in other words, operator errors,)

leadcounsel
June 22, 2012, 12:05 AM
Love the history and feel and such of a great 1911.

I'm proficient with most handguns, including the 1911. Great platform.

But more modern guns just work better for me also. Lighter, faster actions, faster reloads, more rounds, more reliability, etc.

kcshooter
June 22, 2012, 10:00 AM
I want at least a 4 or 5 lb pull, to limit ad'sThat makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

holdencm9
June 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
It would be a long and contentuous discussion about when a gun becomes a "not 1911". I own two 1911 inspired pistols, a Star BM and a Coonan Classic, that are not 1911's. I feel that a pistol crosses the line when it loses the barrel link, grip safety, and single-stack magazine, but that's just my opinion.

Interesting there was just another thread about 1911's without grip safeties.

TimboKhan
June 22, 2012, 10:21 AM
Too much snark in this thread to keep it alive.

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