"Real" reason so many trash Model 700?


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lovethosesooners
June 18, 2012, 07:32 AM
I read posts often enough stating that Remington's quality has gone bad, blah blah blah that I often wonder why it's stated as often as it is.

I have 4 Remingtons that have been anything but poor quality-an '86 1100, '11 870, '11 700 CDL 30-06 and '12 750 30-06; the 700 shoots 3/4" using factory load (Hornady), fit and finish is beautiful, and love the 750.

I too have stayed away from the 700 plastic stocks, as they do seem "cheesey" to me-is it possible that many associate those stocks with the entire line? Or maybe the 770?

I've no axe to grind, as I own numerous rifles of other mfrs, just makes no sense based on my own experieince as well as some friends newer Rem's to see the claims that the quality has gone south.....

"What say you"?

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ku4hx
June 18, 2012, 08:05 AM
I have a model 700 BDL in .30-'06 my mom gave me in 1965 (or so) that just last week made a 3/4" three shot group at 100 meters ... my club has gone metric. The load was my standard 180 grain consisting of 56.0 grains IMR 4350, CCI LR primers, various cases and Hornady's 180 grain soft point Interlock bullet. I have records all the way back to the late '60s and this accuracy was typical.

The trigger is a near perfect 3.5# with no creep and no over travel. Maybe they were just made better then, but when my club has a hunting rifle shoot I'm always asked would I like to sell it. No way.

Kachok
June 18, 2012, 08:18 AM
Remington in general, not the 700 alone. Why are we mad at them? Because many of us were hardcore fans for many years and then Remington started delivering garbage. That new rifle they sell does not deserve to wear the 700 badge because it is nowhere near as good as the old ones, how would I know? Because I was a third generation Remington nut who has shot them for many years until they screwed me. You wil never ever hear me trash talk the old 700s but my last three Remingtons were complete failures. Now I shoot Savage and Tikka rifles, both of which have been 100% reliable and more accurate then my 700s ever were by a healthy margin, like a one hole margin :D

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 18, 2012, 08:28 AM
I have the SPS Tactical. It has the "Plastic stock". I have nothing but great things to say about it. It shoots under 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards. I think people just hear " they misfire" from CBS & 60 minutes and the bad reputation sticks. I love my rifle. I think Some people just believe what they hear. I had a friend that cussed the 700 like it had killed his dog. I asked why he said " they are junk, you will see they all misfire after they get old". I ask if he had ever shot one, he said "no way, they are dangerous, and I heard alot of the problems are some of the parts are imported from China". I laughed and let him shoot mine, he instantly liked it, while still thinking it was going to auto-load and fire all by itself.

JohnBT
June 18, 2012, 08:56 AM
"I think people just hear " they misfire" from CBS & 60 minutes and the bad reputation sticks. "

The man who designed the trigger told Remington that there was a problem decades ago. In writing. It was known long before the TV shows got hold of it. In fact, there's a Remington memo from 1979 that says the Walker Fire Control trigger has a problem.

John

eastbank
June 18, 2012, 09:55 AM
i have owned many rems and still own alot of them. most problems with a rem trigger is that most don,t take the time to adjust the trigger right, it should be adjusted one stage at a time,screw A first then screw B and screw C last. i like my hunting triggers to be close to 4lbs,with my varmit and bench rifles i like it alot lower and only load one shell at a time and never in a hurry. talk about a AD waiting to happen( older win 94, marlin 336,s too), loading or unloading in bad hunting conditions,i have been close to several AD,s with thoses rifles in hunting conditions, but never with a rem or any other bolt rifle. eastbank.

Sniper66
June 18, 2012, 10:23 AM
I do not have older Rems, so I cannot speak from that pespective, but I do own 2 modern Rem 700s and my brother owns one. We have 2 VLS heavy barrelled varmint rifles in .223 and .243 and I have VSF .223. We shoot prairie dogs with them and have fired 1,000s of rounds without a single misfire. Plus they are deadly accurate with our reloads. The VLS means Varmint Laminate Stock and are nice looking and sturdy...I still prefer nicely grained walnut, but these look as good as a laminate can look and have held up very well. The VSF means Varmint Synthetic Fluted. The stock is Synthetic gray with black squiggly lines running through it....not a bad look and is extremely rugged. It has been banged around in the vehicle and still looks as good as the day I bought it. I am generally not a fan of synthetic, but it does it's job very well. I buy Rems with confidence and plan to buy an older .270 when I can find one, so maybe I'll know more about the difference between old and new in the future.

Sav .250
June 18, 2012, 10:32 AM
They are what they are........ That`s why I believe, some folks like the "older-ones." Not many have harsh words for those.

jmr40
June 18, 2012, 10:56 AM
"I think people just hear " they misfire" from CBS & 60 minutes and the bad reputation sticks. "

The man who designed the trigger told Remington that there was a problem decades ago. In writing. It was known long before the TV shows got hold of it. In fact, there's a Remington memo from 1979 that says the Walker Fire Control trigger has a problem.



The Remington trigger problem is older than that. Mike Walker, the engineer who designed the 700 series triggers discovered the problem in 1945 and suggested a change then. CNBC simply reported a problem that has been well known by knowledgeable shooters for 40 years and Remington insiders for 60 years. The problem is very real, but has nothing to do with the recent decline in Remington quality.

Remington claims that only triggers that have been improperly modified or are dirty will do this. This is a true statement, and basically what Mike Walker discovered in 1945, but there are several other facts that Remington does not want you to know.

Fact #1. Firearms have been around for over 500 years and Bubba the gunsmith has been playing with the triggers on all of them since the beginning. It is only the Remington triggers that Bubba cannot figure out. No other trigger design does this after Bubba works on them. And there are an awful lot of Remingtons that have fired on their own even though Bubba did not work on that gun.

Fact #2. Remington claims that if Bubba didn't work on it, and it fired on its own, it is because it was dirty. What they don't want you to know is that because of the pre-2007 trigger design it only takes a single flake of unburned powder in the right spot, or a single grass seed and the gun will fire with no pull of the trigger. I don't care how anal you are about cleaning your gun you cannot prevent this. Any other trigger design could take a handful of mud in the mechanism and not do this.

Fact #3. Remington wants you to think it is an isolated case, and it is always your fault. Remington used to keep records of all of the incidents reported to them. But seveal years ago Remington lawyers decided that was not a good idea, so the files were destroyed. Remigton insiders claim they had anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 incidents on file. But we'll never know for sure since they were destroyed before they could be subpoenaed in one of the many lawsuits.

Believe me, this id not just a bunch of stuff made up by a TV network for ratings. The problem is real and any Remington bolt rifle made between 1945 and 2007 could fire with no pull of the trigger. I've seen a perfectly clean unmodified rifle do it.

BTW. The current trigger design is almost exactly what Mike Walker proposed in 1945. Remington chose not to change because it would cost $.05 more per gun.

joed
June 18, 2012, 11:10 AM
Remington in general, not the 700 alone. Why are we mad at them? Because many of us were hardcore fans for many years and then Remington started delivering garbage. That new rifle they sell does not deserve to wear the 700 badge because it is nowhere near as good as the old ones, how would I know? Because I was a third generation Remington nut who has shot them for many years until they screwed me. You wil never ever hear me trash talk the old 700s but my last three Remingtons were complete failures. Now I shoot Savage and Tikka rifles, both of which have been 100% reliable and more accurate then my 700s ever were by a healthy margin, like a one hole margin :D
How about some examples of why you feel Remington is junk. I don't think they're anywhere as good as they once were and I doubt I'd buy another but I like to hear reasoning.

My gripe was the lousy plastic stock on my last 700 purchased last year. But, this was an SPS VS stainless purchased for $484 new. First weekday after the purchase I ordered a B&C stock and Timney trigger. I can no longer complain though.

But, I don't think I'd buy another Remington if I were in the market for another gun.

SlamFire1
June 18, 2012, 11:16 AM
The current trigger design is almost exactly what Mike Walker proposed in 1945. Remington chose not to change because it would cost $.05 more per gun.

You have to remember that a Corporation only exists to maximize profit now. Corporations trade off the cost of compliance with the penalties. It is often cheaper for a Corporation to simply violate the law, pay the penalty, then to comply.

Back in the 40’s ideas such as Consumer Safety, safe products, were things in the future. You can see in that era of zero product liability, adding additional cost to a product, to prevent shooting accidents, was not considered. Corporations don’t care about the damage they do to people, society, the world, it is all about profits. Corporations are amoral in the pursuit of profit.

An old Graybeard told me of two hardware store new M721’s that discharged into the floor boards of a car, when the owners came back from a hunting trip. They took the safety’s off and the rifles discharged.

I don’t know how to test if a M700 trigger is safe or good. I don’t know how to keep one in operating condition. I assume it should be periodically blown out with a solvent and not oiled. Oil or worse, WD-40, gums up over time and regardless of the mechanism, that can cause issues.

I have one 80’s vintage M700 in 6.5 Swede. I sold a later Tupperware stock M700. The earlier rifle is very accurate, after I bedded the thing. The later M700 never showed any improvement after restocking and rebidding.

A gunsmith I know claims that with cheaper M700’s, the machining of receiver threads and barrels are off. He claims the threads don’t match well and that the factory uses glue in that joint to take up the slack. Heck if I know, but this is not the first time I have heard of late model M700’s with something on the barrel shank threads.

I think the M700 is an excellent design, except for the trigger, and if well made, is the basis for an outstanding rifle.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 18, 2012, 12:49 PM
I cannot speak for any of the later M700's other than my SPS Tactical. It is the most accurate (under $1200) out of the box rifle I have ever bought. It shot below an inch @100yds before I rebedded thevstock and strengthened it. Now it shoots better than that. It does not have the "feel"(fit and finish wise) of the older 700's, I would take it over my early 70's 30-06 any day. The bolt itself isnt as smooth opening or closing, but for the difference in cost with inflation, IMHO they have gotten better. They cost around the same price, but the value of the dollar has decreased, so technically they are cheaper now... Just my opinion. I love the M700's and feel for a mass produced affordable rifle they are the best for the customization and design.

788Ham
June 18, 2012, 01:21 PM
I've got a 700 BDL .22-250 I bought back in '74, never had a minutes problem with it. I did too! I didn't like the bowling pin plastic finish on it, so it now wears an oiled finish, still shoots 300-400 yds. dead on! My Pop left me his 700 ADL. '06, he bought that back in '78, still shoots like a house afire. The only one I think is a better shooter, is my Rem. 788 in .223. The orig. trigger was a turd if there ever was one! I put in a Timney trigger about a year ago, now shooting .056 isn't any big feat @ 200 yds. The newer ones I wouldn't have on the place! YMMV.

MrDig
June 18, 2012, 01:27 PM
If you spend Beer Money and expect Champagne quality you are misguided to say the least.
Remington like any other Manufacturer makes Beer Money guns and Champagne Money Guns but if you spend Beer Money you won't get a Champagne money gun most of the time.
Form and Fit are the difference between a Beer Money Gun and a Champagne Money Gun.
Function is not part of the discussion since regardless of the price of the Gun it should Function properly and Safely.
My guess is people spending Beer Money and expecting Champagne Quality.
Nobody expects Champagne quality from and AK pattern rifle it is a Beer Can on a 2x4 and designed to function, period. People buy a Rifle for Walmart Prices and Expect Custom Smith Quality and get Pissed Off because most of the time they got exactly what they paid for.
Remember that "Expectation is the Death of Serenity and the Birth of Resentment."

JR24
June 18, 2012, 02:00 PM
Bought my 700 in '98 or so and I've personally had not a single hint of a complaint with it ever since. Its my go to deer gun and has taken many white tail. I guess in retrospect the trigger is a bit heavier than I like for target shooting, don't notice all that much in the bush though. Love my 870 too, and a few other models over the years.

I have looked at those 770s and boy do they look like crap though. I'd probably go for a Savage or Tikka if I were looking for a new, low priced option.

jim243
June 18, 2012, 02:04 PM
Beer Money you won't get a Champagne money gun most of the time.

Actually it will, if the manufacturer is willing to take less profit on each sale. Remington the company has been bought and sold many times. So we are not talking about the same thing, when talking about old or new Remington rifles.

Remington is a "Brand" and as such has value in it's "Brand Name". The most recent owners of the company have taken that brand name and wrecked it by making products that are way below the standards set by the orginal owners. Often family owned business will go down hill when the founder's family sells off the company. Unless it is sold to someone or a group that takes pride in the "Brand", you will see corners cut and quality go south. Well all I can say is that the Remington 770 I tried a few years back was so bad, it rattled when you picked it up, the bolt was machined poorly, the stock sucked and the overall appearance and feel was a POS. Now, if someone tried to sell me a 1980's remington CDL, all I would think about is the junk that I looked at and pass on any purchase of their equipment. That doesn't make that 1980 CDL bad, just that the "Brand" has gone so down hill, I wouldn't even consider buying one.

Just my opinion.
Jim

natman
June 18, 2012, 03:01 PM
I read posts often enough stating that Remington's quality has bad, blah blah blah that I often wonder why it's stated as often as it is.

....

I too have stayed away from the 700 plastic stocks, as they do seem "cheesey" to me-is it possible that many associate those stocks with the entire line? Or maybe the 770?

I've no axe to grind, as numerous rifles of other mfrs, just makes no sense based on my own experieince as well as some friends newer Rem's to see the claims that the quality has gone south.....

"What say you"?

The 710/770 is enough to trash anyone's reputation for quality. Even worse was the 870 express / 700 SPS matte finish that rusted if you looked at it.

Float Pilot
June 18, 2012, 03:28 PM
A couple years ago the carbon fiber stock on my M-700 Titanium Mountain Rifle (30-06) broke and I posted photos here.

Within a day somebody at Remington heard about it and they over-night mailed me a new stock (which they farm out) ...Free of charge.

A couple days later I had a phone call asking how it worked and if I needed any more help.

They did OK by me...

Txhillbilly
June 18, 2012, 04:08 PM
In today's fast paced,money or nothing world,almost all manufacturing processes cut corners to produce their products.
Every company produces lemons from time to time,and they all sell products that to most people "Aren't as good as they used to be" mentality.

Most people today have a Walmart mentality-They want everything to cost less,but then they want to receive a top shelf product.Too bad,it doesn't work that way in real life.
When you buy a cheaper model gun,you get a cheaper model gun.

You can't get Rolls Royce quality buying a Chevy!

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 18, 2012, 04:24 PM
My SPS(matte finish tactical) has been in horrible weather, and has only been wiped down with gun oil. It has never rusted. So its not exactly a fact to say that all of a model are bad or all of that finish rust.

SharpsDressedMan
June 18, 2012, 04:53 PM
I'm trashing mine. I have four. Wearing them out, one round at a time.

eastbank
June 18, 2012, 05:23 PM
if you misadjust a rem trigger and pull on the trigger with the safety on and then push the safety off it will drop the fireing pin, so will alot of other rifles.if you load up your trigger group with a gumming oil(wd-40-3in1 oil amoung others and let it set over time the oil hardens and will affect the workings of the triggers on any rifle. i have two older rem,s a 1948 721 and a 1952 722 that have fired many rounds after having their triggers adjusted to 4lbs with out any problems whats so ever and many,many other rem 700,s with the same results, i,m not saying there has not been AD,s caused by the triggers(the same with other rifles),but with a little care and thinking they will be minimal. out of all the millions of rem rifles produced just what percent of mishaps do you think have happened(i know one is to many,and in a perfect world you would be right). a rifle is not hulla hoop and is by nature a dangerous instirment. eastbank.

OrangePwrx9
June 18, 2012, 07:17 PM
If you spend Beer Money and expect Champagne quality you are misguided to say the least.
Remington like any other Manufacturer makes Beer Money guns and Champagne Money Guns but if you spend Beer Money you won't get a Champagne money gun most of the time.
Form and Fit are the difference between a Beer Money Gun and a Champagne Money Gun.
Function is not part of the discussion since regardless of the price of the Gun it should Function properly and Safely.
My guess is people spending Beer Money and expecting Champagne Quality.
Nobody expects Champagne quality from and AK pattern rifle it is a Beer Can on a 2x4 and designed to function, period. People buy a Rifle for Walmart Prices and Expect Custom Smith Quality and get Pissed Off because most of the time they got exactly what they paid for.
Remember that "Expectation is the Death of Serenity and the Birth of Resentment."
That is such crap, MrDig. If anything, my experience proves the exact opposite.

Two words: "Remington 788"

Beer money for champagne performance. First new rifle I ever bought was with my first 2nd Looey paycheck. It was a 788 in .22-250. Cost less than $90 NIB. Outshoots everything I've bought since...even the stainless varmint heavy barrels. Only others that came close are 788s in 6mm Rem. and .308.

Simple is better if it's done right. I think the 788 was discontinued because the 700 couldn't stand the competition.

H2oPumper
June 18, 2012, 07:55 PM
I'm scared to death of a new 700. I would have not trouble owning one built 20 years ago. A hunting buddy bought a 270 WSM in a 700. You have to bear down so hard on the bolt to close the action I'm surprised he hasn't snapped the handle. When it comes time to eject the spent cartridge, the ejection angle is too low and it just barely touches the ejection port, but enough to allow the bolt to hang on to the case causing a jam. The gun was sent back to Remington and they came back with no problem. I have pictures of it and my buddy has a 700 in a 270 WSM for sale. Three different ammo brands were tried with the same results. This occurs on every 1-3 rounds.

longrange308
June 18, 2012, 08:06 PM
Let us not forget that some people bash Remington because they cannot afford them. I had one person tell me their Stevens bolt action rifle is better than my than my Remington 700. Granted people like to feel good about their equipment and bashing others rifles makes them feel good.

Here's a story for you: I was a Deputy Sheriff for 4 years two of which I was on the Sheriff's Emergency Response Team (S.E.R.T). While at the range one day I was confronted by a boy around 19-20 years old. The boy declared, "I can beat you with my Mossberg 4X4 30-06." I told him, "If I beat you I get your rifle, but if you beat me I will give you the amount your rifle is worth." I was not about to give my Remington 700 ($2,500.00) with a Nightforce optic ($1,700.00) to some punk kid because for all I knew this kid could have had talent to beat me, even with his Mossberg 4X4. I told him we would get three alternating shots each using factory ammo and the targets would be set to 100 yards. He agreed, and that was that.

I shot first, right in the ten ring. He fired a shot, right on the lip of the ten ring. I fired a second shot, right in the same hole as the first shot. He fired a second shot, about one inch from his first shot. There was no need to go any further with the competition. I walked over to him and took his rifle and walked away, he started to cry telling me how hard he had worked that Summer to buy that rifle.

Knowing what it was like to be 19 or 20, I gave him his rifle back (no intentions of keeping it in the first place). I even let him shoot my "Darling Person", and you know the kid had real talent, his rifle was just inferior.

I am amazed how far some people will go to prove their equipment is better than some other person's equipment, when obviously their equipment is inferior.

MrDig
June 18, 2012, 08:21 PM
you misunderstand me, people spend Walmart Money and Expect Custom Smith results all the time.
The functionality of the Gun should never be in question no matter what you pay.
The fit and finish are not guaranteed. Sometimes the stock will be a little proud of the receiver or the edges will be a little sharp, It is not a Bad Gun, it is just not a Custom Deluxe Gun

Walmart doesn't carry high end Weatherby's but they do carry Vanguards, Don't expect a Mark V when you pay Vanguard prices.
You pay for a Vanguard you get a Vanguard, but too many Expect a Mark V for Vanguard Money.
It is the same thing with any Brand. Even dare I say it Remington.
Don't expect a High End Remington for Walmart Prices and that is why people will bash any Brand not just Remington.

TonyAngel
June 18, 2012, 08:40 PM
Although some do trash Remingtons, I think that most do their trashing is in the form choosing another brand because they think it's a better bang for the buck.

Although I've been active in shooting sports, in one form or another, for almost 30 years; I'm relatively new to bolt guns and long distance shooting. i've bought one new Remington rifle, which was an SPS Tactical in .308. My list of gripes included a barrel that was threaded crooked, a horrible finish that rusted if I looked at it too hard, chamber and throat that were sloppy and long and a trigger that left a lot to be desired.

For the money, Savages offerings looked mighty appealing; but I decided not to go the Savage route because I didn't like the action and design of the bolt.

I guess the short answer to the question posed is that Remington's quality control seems to have gone down the toilet.

I have, however, noticed that Remington's more expensive models that get a bit more attention before they leave the factory are pretty nice, although the chambers are still sloppy with long throats; you can get a nicer trigger and stock and they are put together with more care. Of course the down side to the higher end models is that, for the money, you could have a nicer semi custom rifle built. I have less than $2500 in my current 700 and it includes a Jewel trigger, Krieger barrel, detachable magazine and Holland bolt handle.

What it boils down to is the quality control, or lack thereof, and less of a bang for the buck.

Kachok
June 18, 2012, 09:30 PM
How about some examples of why you feel Remington is junk. I don't think they're anywhere as good as they once were and I doubt I'd buy another but I like to hear reasoning.

My gripe was the lousy plastic stock on my last 700 purchased last year. But, this was an SPS VS stainless purchased for $484 new. First weekday after the purchase I ordered a B&C stock and Timney trigger. I can no longer complain though.

But, I don't think I'd buy another Remington if I were in the market for another gun.
I have listed this several times before but here you go.
Remington #1 Constant feeding issues and sub bar accuracy no matter what I tried. About 1 1/2 MOA at best well below my other rifles.
Remington #2 Would not chamber a round period, factory would not fix. Shame because that CDL was the prettiest rifle I have ever owned.
Remington #3 Started rusting the day I took it out of the plastic despite regular cleaning and oiling (like all of my rifles) within 6 months it was a total loss. Stupid cheap @$$ ADL steel does not hold up in the hot/humid Gulf Coast climate.
Compare that to my absolutely perfect record with all my Savage 110s and my amazing Tikka and the Remingtons do not compare, not even remotely close. I have no reason on earth to give them another shot after the piss poor products and customer support. That said if I found a deal on an old reliable Rem 700 I would not mind owning one of them.

Ridgerunner665
June 19, 2012, 12:20 AM
That said if I found a deal on an old reliable Rem 700 I would not mind owning one of them.

Yep...me too.

I bought this fine old ADL (270 Win) for my wife about a month ago, its a rifle I have owned twice before (trading among friends)...it rolled off the assembly line in 1990, my buddy bought it new and it has no more than 200 rounds fired through it, it is of the type that gave Remington their "former" reputation for accuracy...it shoots any ammo you feed it into tiny little groups.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/2012-05-20_20-09-40_903.jpg

Like many others here...I was once a hardcore Remington guy, but 5 bad rifles in a row is enough to make any sane person start shopping around (I'm shooting a Winchester now...and loving it). I still have several Remington 700's, and not a single one is younger than 20 years...I won't be selling them, but I won't be buying any new ones either.

That said...there is not a single brand of "production" rifle out there that will satisfy me these days...they all offer low grade stocks, plastic with no pillars, and...well...PLASTIC! (trigger guards, floor plates, etc.)

Even with my Winchester...I bought the cheap model (Ultimate Shadow) because I knew there was no sense in me paying for the fine wood stock on the Sporter or even the Supergrade....I wouldn't have been satisfied with it. Cost cutting has affected them all...as a result, to get a rifle that I'm satisfied with...it goes like this.

Buy the least expensive model and make it the way I want it...and with the Winchester it looks like its gonna end up being a $1,700 rifle.

The rifle...$680
The stock...$562
The scope...around $450 (haven't decided on a scope yet)

The lesson....guns are an expensive habit!

Kachok
June 19, 2012, 12:34 AM
5 bad ones in a row!!! You got my 3 in a row beat. Have you got your new stock in for your 70 yet? I would love to see how tight you can get that thing to group :) My only Winchester 70 was one of the infamous "pumpkin batch" in the late 90s. I have been keeping an eye on the new ones, I love the action on them!
BTW I think your Winchester forums regestration is broken, it would not let me sign up the other day.

Ridgerunner665
June 19, 2012, 12:40 AM
I just ordered the stock for the 70 this morning...I ordered it directly from McMillan because I wanted the Limbsaver pad on it, and the machined in pillars...she told me about 4 months.

Both mine and my sons M70's shoot pretty darn good...I'm anxious to see what they'll do in a good stock too. That group I posted over there was shot off shooting sticks...I could probably do a little better prone (on a good day)

I'll look into the other forum...I'm a mod there but haven't had time to visit much recently (work...and too many forums, LOL)

EDIT: the other forum seems to be working.

longrange308
June 19, 2012, 12:43 AM
I have listed this several times before but here you go.
Remington #1 Constant feeding issues and sub bar accuracy no matter what I tried. About 1 1/2 MOA at best well below my other rifles.
Remington #2 Would not chamber a round period, factory would not fix. Shame because that CDL was the prettiest rifle I have ever owned.
Remington #3 Started rusting the day I took it out of the plastic despite regular cleaning and oiling (like all of my rifles) within 6 months it was a total loss. Stupid cheap @$$ ADL steel does not hold up in the hot/humid Gulf Coast climate.
Compare that to my absolutely perfect record with all my Savage 110s and my amazing Tikka and the Remingtons do not compare, not even remotely close. I have no reason on earth to give them another shot after the piss poor products and customer support. That said if I found a deal on an old reliable Rem 700 I would not mind owning one of them.
I have had the same problems with rifles but not only Remington. I had a Winchester Model 70 Super Shadow in 7mm WSM that would rust like crazy, so I had a Cerakote Finish put on it thus eliminating the problem. Now all of my guns get a Cerakote finish because I hate to spend time oiling things. Did you know that Cerakote can be applied in a way that looks like the most beautiful blue finish. I would advise anyone living in the Gulf Coast region to put some kind of corrosion resistant finish on their guns even stainless steel.

Just about all of my factory rifles had some type of a feeding issue that forced me to seek the help of a competent gunsmith. One thing I cannot tolerate is a bolt rifle that will not feed properly, it has to be smooth for me.

However, I understand what you are saying, no one wants to pay their hard earned money for a rifle they have to spend hundreds more on to work properly.

Kachok
June 19, 2012, 12:44 AM
I am an accuracy junkie, I like Savage and Tikka rifles because I have always been able to tweek them to crazy accuracy, I am interested to see if the Model 70 can be tweeked to consistent 1/4 MOA because I love everything else about the rifle, much nicer feel and action then my Savages.

Kachok
June 19, 2012, 12:50 AM
Just about all of my factory rifles had some type of a feeding issue that forced me to seek the help of a competent gunsmith. One thing I cannot tolerate is a bolt rifle that will not feed properly, it has to be smooth for me.

However, I understand what you are saying, no one wants to pay their hard earned money for a rifle they have to spend hundreds more on to work properly.
Try a Tikka/Sako smoothest and most precise feeding of any action I have ever used, I have to look to see if it is cambering a round because I cannot even feel it. And yes that is bone stock no machining or polishing. You might not like the "plastic" feel but they shoot REALLY tight groups, I get 3/4 MOA out of cheap bulk ammo and handloads can easily group into one hole when I do my part. Not bad for a 6lbs rifle, now if they just made the rest of it feel as nice as a walnut/steel sporter :)

longrange308
June 19, 2012, 12:57 AM
Try a Tikka/Sako smoothest and most precise feeding of any action I have ever used, I have to look to see if it is cambering a round because I cannot even feel it. And yes that is bone stock no machining or polishing. You might not like the "plastic" feel but they shoot REALLY tight groups, I get 3/4 MOA out of cheap bulk ammo and handloads can easily group into one hole when I do my part. Not bad for a 6lbs rifle, now if they just made the rest of it feel as nice as a walnut/steel sporter :)
I have recently been on the search for a Sako rifle, but no one has any and to my surprise they can't find out where to get one. Three of my guys has called their distributors and they don't carry the Sako's but they carry Tikka which makes no sense at all. Do you have any idea who carries Sako rifles.

Kachok
June 19, 2012, 01:04 AM
You don't see many stores carry Sakos, most people order them online. Tikka has the Sako action and barrel so many say they are every bit as accurate and I will vouch for that, plus they are half the price. Difference is Sako has more steel and less polymer, and prettier wood stocks. I personaly like the Tikka synthetic, MUCH nicer then Savage, Remington, Marlin and ....well pretty much everybody except Kimber who also has a fiber/matrix rather then mold injection. Tikka/Sako triggers are also amongst the best in the buisness, every bit as crisp and light as the Accutrigger without the blade. I cannot feel any difference between my Tikkas trigger and the custom target triggers I have used, it is really that good. Zero creep, zero grit, crisp/light break and no overtravel, what more could you ask for?

Ridgerunner665
June 19, 2012, 01:15 AM
The only place I've ever seen a Sako on the shelf...

http://www.mahoneysports.com/firearms.html

But for some reason they don't even advertise firearms on the website...strange, because they have a VERY large selection in the store. The website is pretty new though...maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

They also have the best prices on guns to be found locally (for me)...generally $30-$50 less than most others.

eastbank
June 19, 2012, 06:52 AM
what do you think are the most dangerous rifles in the woods? my pick is the verious lever actions, i think more people have been hurt and killed by them than all other rifles combined. they are just plain danderous to the uninformed and careless. and i do wish rem. would put a three position safety on their rifles so it could be loaded and unloaded with the firing pin locked. the last rem i bought was a sps 700 left hand in 7mm-08 and after a short break in, it is a true 1 inch or better shooter with the 43grs varget with the 120gr hornady bullet,trigger adjusted to 4lbs and a 3x9 compact leupold. eastbank.

joed
June 19, 2012, 08:32 AM
Can't argue many of the complaints against Remington. But you take a chance on anything you buy.

Heck, I got burned on my share of Savage rifles. Had a 10fp in .223 that was extremely accurate but there was a 30% chance the next round would not feed. Then there was a 12 VSS that was a very expensive fluted heavy barrel rifle that would string the shots vertically. In the end I couldn't get rid of this rifle fast enough. Because of the stringing I will not own a fluted barrel rifle at all. Don't know if I'd own another Savage at this point.

My last Remington is 1.5 years old. Only complaint was the SPS stock.

Winchester? I'll take all I can get, found all that I purchased not to have problems. The only problem I have with Winchester is try to find a dealer. In my locale no one carries them.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 10:32 PM
I have still not seen a Winchester 70 Sporter, everyone carries the featherweight and super shadow but no sporter wood stock. I would HAVE to have some pretty wood on a Winchester, synthetic does not do them justice IMHO. Bass Pro would order me one for $750 but I have to see wood before I buy, I suppose I am weird like that.
I guess I have just been lucky with my Savages, not a single complaint with any of the half dozen I have owned, three of which were cheap Wal-Mart specials, all shot like a dream and were perfectly reliable. You simply could not ask any more of a $300 rifle. My best groups to date were all with Savage rifles, yes even tighter then that pretty one hole group I shot with my Tikka last week.

Clark
June 20, 2012, 10:37 PM
One can modify a Rem700 to try to bring it up to Win M70 standards:
1) Glue a shroud to the receiver to get a flat receiver bottom to resist bullet twist torque.
2) Get a Sako extractor modification to replace weak extractor with a bigger extractor.
3) Safety blocks trigger, not firing pin..... Gentry 3 position safety on firing pin
4) Recoil lug not attached... drill lug and receiver and then pin together.
5) Barrel may shake loose, apply glue. Vaughn also has proposed Rem700 design change.
6) Bolt handle soldered on and will break off, TIG weld on handle stronger
7) Not controlled feed... no cure
8) Plunger ejector instead of knife blade ejector... no cure
9) Failed case head shoots shooter in the eye with gas... wear eye protection

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 10:40 PM
^ You forgot free floating the barrel :)

Ridgerunner665
June 20, 2012, 10:42 PM
I had a hard time finding my Winchester...ended up ordering one through a small local shop...I found lots of Featherweights...but no Sporters, no Ultimate Shadows, no Supergrades....nothing but Featherweights (almost bought one in 300 WSM...it was $100 cheaper than the 30-06 for some reason...but I wanted a 30-06 so thats what I got)

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 10:51 PM
Nothing wrong with the 300 WSM if you handlaod, you can push 30-06 ballistics with slightly less powder in a short action, but 06 brass will always be cheaper and more available so it is a trade off. I love both and would snatch up a deal on either though currently I only own the 06.

TanklessPro
June 20, 2012, 11:19 PM
I have 4 pre 98's and never had a problem with any of them. My Sendaro's trigger is so light that I'm actually scared to check the pull weight. The trigger has been professionally reworked. I have never had or actually talked to someone that had an AD with a 700. I believe AD's are actually ND's but anyway.
Has anyone had a ND with a 700 with the safety on? The reason I ask is if you are following proper safety procedures then the safety should be on unless your finger is on the trigger IMHO.
I just ask for all the Rem haters to flood the market in central Alabama and I will gladly clean up all the trash 700's.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:25 PM
^ I don't think anyone here is bad mouthing the pre 98 Remingtons, I know I am not. But the new ones have major issues and most of the hardcore Rem crowd will even admit that.

Ridgerunner665
June 20, 2012, 11:26 PM
The Winchester was always gonna be a "project" rifle...after 30 years of hunting I thought maybe I knew exactly what I wanted in a hunting rifle...thats why I got it in 30-06...I didn't see the need for a magnum.

And the project is nearly finished...the stock is ordered...just need the scope now, which will be along in a few months...but probably not in time for deer season this year. That 3-9x Nikon thats on it now will have to serve the purpose for this year. (the 3-9x is a great scope...I just want a 4-12x side focus :D )

I'm planning on treating myself to some rather expensive hunting trips in the coming years...I wanted a rifle I could depend on.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:38 PM
Oh I tend to agree, there is no game that I would hunt with a 300 ultra mag that I would not be just as comfortable hunting with a 200-240gr 30-06 within real world ranges. The only advantage of the magnums is hunting at extended ranges which is something I try to avoid anyway. Magnums have their place but they will never replace the fantastic standard calibers either.

Sebastian the Ibis
June 20, 2012, 11:45 PM
I have not purchased a new Remington rifle, but I picked up a brand new 870 last week. The stock was a hollow rubber plastic shell, basically the same consistency as a Rubbermaid trash can. I feel I should at least take it to the range at least once before dumping it, but I see a new stock in it's not too distant future.

TanklessPro
June 20, 2012, 11:46 PM
^ I don't think anyone here is bad mouthing the pre 98 Remingtons, I know I am not. But the new ones have major issues and most of the hardcore Rem crowd will even admit that.
I have a total of 11 Rem firearms and I'm pretty devoted to them. I have never had a single problem. Most Rem's are gold IMHO. I have been considering a new 700. People trash the 770, but IMHO it is built with the price being the main driver.
Is a 770 as good as a 700? No it's half the price.
You get what you pay for.

1858
June 21, 2012, 12:01 AM
Remington has been through a rough patch over the last few years, in part due to the incredible demand for firearms and ammunition over the past four years, and in part due to some changes at Remington resulting from the change in ownership. However, the new CEO of Freedom Group and the owner of Cerberus want Remington to be successful and care about the brand name and are making changes to get Remington back to where it used to be. Based on the 870 tactical and VERSA-MAX tactical shotguns that I bought recently, Remington is moving in the right direction.

As for the 700, I have three, but these days I look for features that come standard on rifles made by Accuracy International, Kimber and Winchester so my 700 days are over. I still think that they're good rifles though.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:07 AM
I have a total of 11 Rem firearms and I'm pretty devoted to them. I have never had a single problem. Most Rem's are gold IMHO. I have been considering a new 700. People trash the 770, but IMHO it is built with the price being the main driver.
Is a 770 as good as a 700? No it's half the price.
You get what you pay for.
All of mine were 700s not 710s or 770s, and they were all failures, If they cannot build a $700+ CDL to spec there is no excuse for that. I really hope Remington gets back on track, because they are a staple of the US firearms market that will otherwise be spread among forgin made brands (Sako, Browning, Tikka, Howa, Weatherby)

TanklessPro
June 21, 2012, 12:19 AM
All of mine were 700s not 710s or 770s, and they were all failures, If they cannot build a $700+ CDL to spec there is no excuse for that. I really hope Remington gets back on track, because they are a staple of the US firearms market that will otherwise be spread among forgin made brands (Sako, Browning, Tikka, Howa, Weatherby)
If you do not mind me asking, what were the failures?

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:36 AM
If you do not mind me asking, what were the failures?
The first had routine feeding issues and sub-par accuracy (yes it was the gun and not me)
The second was my CDL and it absolutly would not chamber a round no matter what, such a pretty rifle too :(
The third was the only one that shot tight (REALLY tight), unfortunetly it was rusting like it was bathed in saltwater daily, even with regular cleaning and oiling it was a total loss within a few months. None of my other rifles ever had such an issue.
That is why I say Remington QC is the worst in the buisness, I have had better luck out of Mossberg and other bargain brands.....how sad is that?
The old Rem 700s were fantastic, grandpa had a old 700 in 280rem that was one of the best rifles I have ever laid my hands on but that was some years ago.

ElToro
June 21, 2012, 03:16 AM
i have 3 sporter weight blue on wood ADL style 700s a 30-06, 308 built in the early and mid 70s and a .223 made in the early 80s. i watched the CBS thing and and i tried as hard as i could to make mine do that ( at a range with the barrel pointed down range) worked the bolt and safety in every combination possible with a live round in the pipe. never had an AD. maybe im just lucky

all 3 are used and have unknown rounds including hundreds each by me. still accurate and reliable. i will take my chances and just not point a loaded rifle at any thing i dont intend to shoot

MCgunner
June 21, 2012, 09:25 AM
If one of my Remingtons misfire, itd an ammo problem. They simply don't do that. I've never had a misfire in one. Okay, one's older than dirt, pre 700, a M722 short action. The other is new enough to have the bolt safety lock missing, a stainless M7. Both are excellent rifles of high quality. I wouldn't HAVE one of those 770s, but I don't know that the 700s have gone to crap. I wouldn't be surprised if QC had, but nothing wrong with the design IMHO other than Remington needs to do the safety right and design a 3 position safety. I mean, my Savage has one and it was considerably cheaper. It CAN'T be a cost issue. That kinda gets my goat, that they got lazy and didn't do the safety issue right. I was always of a mind that if it was worth doing, it was worth doing right.

When I did the triggers on these guns, I just had a gunsmith do 'em. They're set where I like 'em, 3 crisp lbs, and it didn't cost more'n 25 bucks each or so to have 'em done.

1858
June 21, 2012, 10:09 AM
The first .... The second ... The third

I can understand buying the second ... but the third ... :confused: . When did you buy each of these rifles and were they NIB?

I only bought one Savage and that fiasco was enough to convince me to never buy another. Had Savage been honest and honorable I would have given the product a chance but since their CS dept consists of a bunch of lying ignorant muppets I'll spend my money elsewhere. As I say these days "no one aspires to own a Savage!".

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 11:10 AM
I can understand buying the second ... but the third ... :confused: . When did you buy each of these rifles and were they NIB?

I only bought one Savage and that fiasco was enough to convince me to never buy another. Had Savage been honest and honorable I would have given the product a chance but since their CS dept consists of a bunch of lying ignorant muppets I'll spend my money elsewhere. As I say these days "no one aspires to own a Savage!".
The second and thrid were brand new, the first was lightly used when I bought it. I gave Remington another chance because I had been a die hard fan for many years before that, those three were not the only Remingtons I have owned only the newest.
BTW I do aspire to own (another) Savage, I have had very very good performance out of each and every one I have owned, but if I found a rifle that was every bit as accurate, reliable, and tweekable, with better refinement I would have to give them a shot. Savages while accurate and rock solid reliable are anything but refined, the action is clunky, the factory synthetic SUCKS and the barrel is rough as sandpaper for the first 100 rounds. I am still brushing out chunks of lead from my Savage 30-06 after it's third trip, my more refined rifles never did that after the first trip to the range.

JohnBT
June 21, 2012, 11:10 AM
"and are making changes to get Remington back to where it used to be."

They're going to sell the company to someone who knows how to build good guns?

Savage99
June 21, 2012, 11:27 AM
The Rem. 700 design and the 721/722's before them lack features that make them fine guns. Of course they shoot bullets and cost less and that's all that some want.

I want more. I like well made and designed machinery.

Just look at the bolt face on a 700, for instance and if you see the extractor as a tiny spring that lacks CRF then you understand.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGiT3aaAOQwiOonK6-B_Ud8UXehuovKkeCOJ7dGCQGN9Dl_H2rd6mhAUvG

rajb123
June 21, 2012, 11:49 AM
I owned a m700 in 30-06 with a walker trigger in the 1970s....no problem for me.

I would not own one now, however. ...why take a chance with safety?

I'm not sure I would want to hunt with others who were using an m700.

SpeedAKL
June 21, 2012, 11:50 AM
I have a 700 SPS-V, which is basically their 700P without the nice HS Precision stock, chambered in .308. The SPS stocks are cheap IMHO, but otherwise the gun has run without complaint. Consistently reliable, relatively smooth action, dependable sub-MOA accuracy. Trigger is not as crisp as I'd like but it isn't junk either. I'm not that great a shooter, but it should be a 0.75-MOA gun with top-quality ammo. I'll likely replace the stock, upgrade the barrel, and upgrade the trigger in the future.

Regarding the Remington hate, there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that Big Green is having more quality control issues than normal. Is this only because of increased sales/production or is there an actual problem? Very hard to tell without running the numbers.

I'm happy with my 700, partly because I got a screaming deal on it. It also makes a great "starter gun" for future upgrades or customization. There is massive aftermarket support for the 700 in the tactical and precision communities, and most top precision rifle shops made their names by upgrading 700s. For precision shooting, I'd look strongly at a FN or Savage in the same price range were I more concerned with "out of the box" performance.

I can't speak as much for hunting rifles, though many friends have had success with the 700. I've been browsing for a new deer rifle and am leaning more towards Winchester or Browning for perceived build quality.

MCgunner
June 21, 2012, 12:12 PM
Savage99, you're a controlled feed freak? Why? You huntin' Africa? I use my guns for deer and hogs and they work just fine. My .257 Roberts, a 60 year old M722 short action, has been filling the freezer for all that time, never failed me or my grandpa. It kills game just as dead as your 10,000 custom, I'll bet! I went to a local club shoot, once, they were doing deer rifle bench rest competition. Custom bench guns were outlawed. This old fart in the club owns Klein-Gunther, and Weatherby Mk Vs and they're all scoped with Schmidt and Bender. He prides himself in his high dollar guns and spends hours working up loads for accuracy in them. I sent him home pouting that day with my old 722. :D Was rather funny, but I took the first place that day with that old rifle and its favorite handload and the Bushnell Banner it's topped with. I don't think if I put every gun I own, 20+ long guns and 26 handguns, all together, it could match the price of one Klein-Gunther/Schmidt and Bender combination. At least to own a match winning rifle, you don't have to be rich, just know what you're doing with your cheap Remington.

MANY match rifles are built on Remington actions and our country's best snipers have been armed with them for quite a while, now. Interesting that snipers DON'T WANT controlled round feed, have to make noise to get an ejected case with one. I'm not sure why one should bash Remingtons unless you're like that old man at the shoot and hate getting beat by a cheap rifle. I also own a Savage 110, don't shoot as well as either of my Remingtons, but it's a 1MOA gun, shoots well enough. It was one HELL of a lot cheaper than my M7 Stainless, too!

1858
June 21, 2012, 12:17 PM
Just look at the bolt face on a 700, for instance and if you see the extractor as a tiny spring that lacks CRF then you understand.

I upgraded my Remingtons to PT&G bolts with Sako extractors for this very reason but that's why I'm drawn to Kimber and Winchester these days. Rifles from these companies show up with a large claw extractor, a three-position safety that blocks the firing pin, no soldered bolt handle and no plunger ejector on the bolt face. CRF is an added feature too but not a deal breaker for me.


They're going to sell the company to someone who knows how to build good guns?

There are more than enough people under the FGI umbrella that know how to build good rifles, the trick is to increase production without lowering quality. These two variables can get out of sync from time to time and without good leadership and accountability, real problems start to show up.

Boomie
June 21, 2012, 01:55 PM
Re: CRF

I have two Remmy 700's. My 30-06 was my first center fire rifle and I've shot it more that any of my other rifles. It's also my hunting rifle so it has been abused worse than any of my other rifles. I've never had any feeding/extraction issues with either. My Mauser, however, is shot far less and has broken it's big beefy claw extractor before.

I believe CRF got it's reputation because I'm under the impression that is the only way you can feed and extract the big tapered rounds (like many big Africa rounds). Tapered rounds have a bit more reliability than straight walled rounds. I refuse to believe the design is actually more reliable.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 02:04 PM
^ I have to say that you are the first person I have ever heard imply that a Rem 700 is more reliable at extracting than a Mauser action, if I remember correctly when tested the factory Rem 700 extractor broke at 98lbs and the K98 extractor claw broke at just over 300lbs.

eastbank
June 21, 2012, 05:39 PM
if you have a true CRF,like the old md 70,s and o3,o3a3 springfields,the barrels are cone shaped and have a big cut out for the claw extractor at the breech end (take a look at a barrel). that leaves alot of the cartridge head unsupported and can wreck a rifle if a case head lets go for any reason(overload, barrel obstruction). and true crf rifle(98 mauser type) will not feed a singe round not inserted into the magazine and in fact may break off the tip of the extractor if forced closed(unless beveled by a gunsmith). i have both types of rifles and if taken care of and operated right will be satisfactory. eastbank.

Robbins290
June 21, 2012, 06:41 PM
does anybody know when the date was when qc went down the tubes? i cant read the whole thread couse im on a cell phone. i bought my 700 bdl in '06. and mine has been flawless.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 07:50 PM
does anybody know when the date was when qc went down the tubes? i cant read the whole thread couse im on a cell phone. i bought my 700 bdl in '06. and mine has been flawless.
Apr 2007 was when CCM bought them out, many consider this (or shortly afterward) the point they went down the tubes.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 21, 2012, 08:25 PM
See I love my 700 and it is 8 months old. I personally have no beef at all with the quality. I actually think that since Cerberus bought them thing are looking up. They even have a new contract for M4's.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 08:30 PM
They even have a new contract for M4's.
Yeah that is called lowest bidder, not highest quality. Haveing shot many an old and new 700 I prefer everything about the older 700s except for the trigger, the X-Mark does break cleaner and with less grit. An upgraded trigger on a oldschool Rem is the ticket.

MrDig
June 21, 2012, 08:44 PM
I just realized I do own a Remington, it is an 03A3 but it is a Remington. Bubba'd to all get out but it was that way when I got it so it's not my fault.

So from my experience I have no complaints about a Remington Rifle but like I said it was made in the 40's from Springfield Specifications. Does that count?

TheSwede
June 21, 2012, 09:07 PM
I worship the Remington 700 from the 1960's. Thats nearly perfection.

TheSwede
June 21, 2012, 09:10 PM
If customers doesnt complain and continue to buy the crap, why should Remington care about the quality control?

MCgunner
June 21, 2012, 10:47 PM
I have no problems with my Remington standard triggers, FAR better than my older Savage 110 in that they can be set lower, though 3 lbs is what I like in a hunting rifle, so I guess that don't really matter. They break very clean and crisp, though. I can't see another trigger being any better, frankly, unless maybe it's for a bench rest rifle and needs to be set in ounces rather than pounds.

Yes, the big advantage to the 700 bolt head is that it offers complete support for the case head, a very safe design. I like that, don't need CRF at all, don't worry about working the bolt standing on my head.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 11:08 PM
My take on CRF vs. push feed...I came to this opinion from years of M700 (and a few model 7's) actions chambered in 308 (read, short actions)

I don't care about chambering rounds while hanging upside down any more than the next guy...but its the clunky, often sticky feeding of the model 7's and 700's that I don't like. I've had 2 model 7's that would occasionally bind up completely while feeding 308's...and neither was a "budget model"...one was a stainless synthetic (nearly $800)...the 700's, most recently was the SPS Tactical (I sold that rifle on here)...it never locked plumb up like the model 7's, but I just didn't like how it fed...it felt cheap! Long action 700's...I've never had one fail to feed but more than one has failed to eject. Even that nice ADL (270 Win) that I recently bought for my wife...the plunger stuck while I was working up loads for it, and for no apparent reason (it was clean). I removed the bolt, tapped the plunger with a screwdriver and it popped right out and was good to go....easy fix, but who wants to deal with it while hunting?

The CRF actions just don't do that...they feed, fire, extract, and eject as slick as snot on a doorknob...to deny that is to deny a fact of life.

As far as the case head being shrouded...well, it is on the 700 and it ain't on the 70...is the 700 stronger in that respect...yes...but thats not saying the 70 is weak either, the model 70 is a VERY strong action...and the gas dispersal system on the new production model 70's has been improved (directing it down).

At any rate...its all in what satisfies YOU...smooth, reliable feeding, extracting, and ejecting are what satisfies ME.

Armed012002
June 21, 2012, 11:11 PM
The LE line such as the 700 Police and 700 LTR are a good value.

Roughly $1,000 gets you a parkerized finish rather than matte blued, an HS Precision stock with full length aluminum bedding block, free floated barrel, and a little more quality control.

Remington is like Smith & Wesson now a days.

A whole lot more attention goes into law enforcement and military firearms than sporting firearms. Evidently, Remington and S&W are more interested in LE and military sales than you and I.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 11:21 PM
I am sure Remington puts a little more work into their $1,000-$1500 rifles and I am sure they are reasonably good but I have owned rifles that will shoot every bit as well and have been a workhorse for many many years with zero issues that cost only a small fraction of that, I would honestly be surprised if one of those $1,500 high end tacticals could hang with my old $125 Savage, back to back to back semi smooth one hole groups is a tough act to follow for any rifle. I miss that old gun.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 22, 2012, 08:25 AM
No, my point was for the first time in a long time they have a military contract. They might be the lowest bidder, but they are also exacting specifications. The Military does not mess around...it takes a few years to get these contracts and hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing.

Kachok
June 22, 2012, 08:45 AM
Not to diss any military contractor, but whoever the hell built my issued M16A2 was not following any "exacting specifications" That was the jamminist gun I have ever shot anywhere (5-7 time per mag no kidding), and yes it was so clean you could eat off the bolt face.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 22, 2012, 09:34 AM
That might be the exact reason Remington now has part of the contract. I wont say that my issued rifle was dependable or that it was the highest quality. But it performed enough to keep me here, and I am sure there are some cheaper versions that could not stand the abuse and rebuilding that mine had obviously seen. I am just stating that I love my new R700, would not trade it for my pre 64 M70 for anything. It might be made faster and cheaper, but it has an accuracy that tops most of my $1500 and less rifles. Maybe not all of them shoot that good, mine is just my experience. But as some were saying they were dangerous and horrible, until mine proves me wrong it has won a place in my heart. I have never had a single fail to eject or a misfire. While the x-mark trigger leave alot to be wanted it is the step that Cerberus took to make them more safe. Cerberus own a few firearm companies and I like most of their companies products... Bushmaster for example, nothing like an LAV with a Bushy cannon on top... Same parent company.

Savage99
June 22, 2012, 09:50 AM
To each his own on what guns you admire and like. My first centerfire was a Rem. 722/222 and I got chucks and more with it. It must have been the cheapest gun my late dad could find that would not kick all that much for my 13 yo small frame.

I spent a lot of time back then in his tool and die shop and I got to operate the lathes and millers. I appreciated that good machinery and still have some of it.

By 1957 I knew I wanted a better made rifle so I ordered a M70 Varmint in 243 for both position target shooting and varmints. You can see the well made machinery in those old M70's and also see that the bolt lugs on a 722/700 are brazed onto the bolt body! Did you know that?

This is what I like. Perhaps you like cheaper stuff? I shop for lower prices on gas. What can't others like cheap guns?

Here are some of my hunting rifles at the range.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg42/scaled.php?server=42&filename=184oi.jpg&res=landing

To each his own. :)

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 22, 2012, 10:00 AM
I am saying the exact opposite Savage99, the Remington has a pricepoint now along with most other entry level rifles. I consider the base 700 to be one of the cheaper magazine fed bolt rifle. The only reason I pick my 700 over the M70 my dad bought new and passed down , is accuracy. It is not as accurate. It has someones heart and soul poured into it though. It is a fine piece of craftmanship that someone was proud to assemble. Just is not a sub MOA rifle. It has a <1000 round count. As I said I am just defending my 700. To each their own and more power to them.

eastbank
June 22, 2012, 01:37 PM
to each his own,its your dollar spend it where you want.i own rem, mauser,win,sav,sig and marlin along with others, that being said. i have not had any trouble with any that were in good condition, but each brings its own values to the shooting game and will fill a need to all. i will not enter a pissing contest with any one about what you like and use,its your trigger finger so put it on any trigger you want. eastbank.

TurtlePhish
June 22, 2012, 02:33 PM
Bushmaster for example, nothing like an LAV with a Bushy cannon on top... Same parent company.

Unrelated, but the Bushmaster that makes ARs doesn't produce the M242 Bushmaster autocannon. That's produced by Alliant Techsystems.

snakeman
June 22, 2012, 02:54 PM
They've always shot good for me. That said, reliability has been questionable and the finish on those things is just pure junk. I like to call it rem"rust" They aren't the worst rifles out there but they're far from the best.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 22, 2012, 02:57 PM
Yeah, just realized that I was wrong about that it is Boeing that is the parent company of that. Cerberus bought AAC, DPMS, Bushmaster & Remington... Sorry for the confusion.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 22, 2012, 03:00 PM
Nobody was saying they were top tier or anywhere near the best. Just saying that people were saying that even the newer 700's were dangerous or junk. When they ate as good as any other entry level rifle. People will stick to their own brands and the often hate the others. I in no way am knocking any other brand, I spoke from my personal experience. I like my R700 and would have no problem buying more.

snakeman
June 22, 2012, 03:06 PM
Well it's good you've had good luck with them. I understand where you're coming from and its perfectly reasonable. I had two of them at one time and had pride in both of them. I still see no major problem with them other than they come up short when compared to howa, weatherby, or savage but cost as much.

788Ham
June 22, 2012, 03:11 PM
eastbank, post# 38,

What statistics do you have that touts lever action rifles the most dangerous rifles to be carried? I like to see those numbers, and how many hunters have been killed using them! I've never heard such BUNK! Savage rifles are the strongest lever actions ever made. My Pop had a .300 Savage my Mom gave him in 1946, I have it now, still as strong as ever, never had a feeding problem, still shoots as accurate as it did then. Maybe you've never had the abilities to use one correctly, but don't sit behind your computer keyboard and write something as anal as what you posted, don't believe it for one second!

1858
June 22, 2012, 04:48 PM
and also see that the bolt lugs on a 722/700 are brazed onto the bolt body! Did you know that?


That's a sloppy description right there. When you consider the function of the bolt lugs and consider that they are integral to the front section of the bolt, this is a non-issue.

snakeman
June 22, 2012, 05:08 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qB7b6.gif

Savage99
June 22, 2012, 05:13 PM
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww15/Donmartin29/Remingtonbolt.jpg

joed
June 22, 2012, 05:20 PM
My take on CRF vs. push feed...I came to this opinion from years of M700 (and a few model 7's) actions chambered in 308 (read, short actions)

I don't care about chambering rounds while hanging upside down any more than the next guy...

The CRF actions just don't do that...they feed, fire, extract, and eject as slick as snot on a doorknob...to deny that is to deny a fact of life.


I've seen people carry on about the CRF for years. So I tried a little experiment with my Winchester 70 Stealth .308, which is a PF. Turned it upside down and attempted to chamber a round. It chambered!

Also tried it with my older Remington 700 in .25-06, again it fed.

Haven't tried all my rifles but 2 out of 2 will feed upside down. Says a lot about CRF.

1858
June 22, 2012, 05:22 PM
and also see that the bolt lugs on a 722/700 are brazed onto the bolt body! Did you know that?


Umm ... that's a bolt handle not a bolt lug. I do agree with you in that I'm not a fan of the brazed on bolt handle either.

MCgunner
June 22, 2012, 06:00 PM
The CRF actions just don't do that...they feed, fire, extract, and eject as slick as snot on a doorknob...to deny that is to deny a fact of life.

I had one that was WAY rough feeding, an old 93 Spanish 7x57 Mauser. My Remingtons are WAY smoother, smooth feeding as it gets. I have one old Commission Rifle that is REALLY smooth, feeding ain't any better than my Remingtons, but the bolt is so smooth, I can open it and tilt the barrel up just a little and it'll slide open on its own weight. My Remingtons take a little more tilt, but are smooth, the old 722 being glass smooth. My Savage 110 feels like it's riding on sandpaper and the barrel has to be PAST 45 degrees approaching vertical before the bolt falls open. Still works, though. It has killed a half dozen west Texas whitetail and one New Mexico mulie. Ain't dissin' the Savage as a tool, just there is no way in HELL it's as well built as my old 722 or my M7 Stainless. Yet, it still works.

The bolt on the Remington is one piece machined, perhaps not the bolt handle, but the BOLT. The Savage 110 can be disassembled. It's built of multiple pieces to reduce cost of manufacture. Savage has ALWAYS been a CHEAP entry level gun that works. The 700 is an upgrade. My Remingtons also out shoot my Savage, the old 722 by 1/2 MOA. All shoot at least 1 MOA with the right load. The Savage is harder to load for, more bullet picky. It seems to like Sierra 150 Game Kings and Nosler 160 Partitions. Some bullets I've wanted to use, like Barnes, do good to shoot 4MOA. The Remingtons have NEVER found a load worse than 1.5 MOA. I reckon the Remington 700 is as popular in bench rest as it is for a reason, called ACCURACY. Same can be said for the government sniper rifles on 700 actions.

Dis 'em all you want, but there's no way in HELL I'm going to agree that a Savage is better than a Remington ANYthing. I do own a Savage, will buy more if I want to, but they're bargain guns that work, not on a level with Klein Gunther or some such, not even with Remington's 700. :rolleyes: The new guns I'm not gong to argue about, have no experience with 'em. Mine are at least 20 years old. I know the 870 express has had its problems. I'm a duck hunter and hunt in the salt marsh, pretty harsh environment. Yeah, most guys that like 870 expresses paint 'em with rattle can paint to keep the rust off, crappy finish. They shoot, take limits of ducks, I just don't like the ergos of an 870, but I do have issues with the finish, so the comment about Remington's 700 finish interests me. My 722 is 60 years old and has been reblued, is doing well, and my Model 7 is stainless, so it doesn't CONCERN me.

D*N*R*
June 22, 2012, 06:23 PM
Before i tweeked my CRAP 770 .270win it could shoot golfballs at 100 yrds.

Some corvettes dont make it 500 miles before they break down

700's over all rock DONE

Ridgerunner665
June 22, 2012, 06:32 PM
McGunner...I'm not singing the praises of Savage (I've never owned a Savage...except a 99 or two)...I was singing the praises of the new Winchester model 70's :)

I'm a recent convert to the Winchesters and CRF...but I do like both.


Old Remingtons never die.... but the new ones should have never been born!

Ridgerunner665
June 22, 2012, 06:37 PM
Ah well I give up, LOL...you know what they say about leading a horse to water. ;):)

MCgunner
June 22, 2012, 06:44 PM
I have no experience with Winchesters, but they went to crap in 1964 for a reason, cost of manufacture. The new ones, the classics, it is my understanding are again excellent rifles, but a step above the Remington 700 in price, at least. I have no bias to CRF, but what ever floats your boat. Lots of hype around the old Pre-64s. My uncle owned two, a .30-06 and a .308 Featherweight. He loved 'em. I never fired one and was too young to really appreciate it, anyway. :D

If that's how you wanna spend your money, knock yourself out, it's YOUR rifle. But, before you start telling me my rifles are CRAP, I invite you to the range for a shoot off. :D

Art Eatman
June 22, 2012, 06:48 PM
Enough wandering about...

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