Impact of wolf reintroduction


PDA






rajb123
June 18, 2012, 02:14 PM
Back in 1990s NYS planned to reintroduce wolfs into Adirondick park which is the largest park in the country. I thought this was a very bad idea at the time and I wrote many politians to tell them to reconsider this plan.

Unfortunately, this plan did move forward (???) and is being done all out west too. I read recently that out west 60% of the deer and elk heards have been killed by roaming packs of wolves and that legal challenges to stop wolves have been hampered by so-called environmental groups.

Is there anything to do to stop the continuing damage?

If you enjoyed reading about "Impact of wolf reintroduction" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
June 18, 2012, 02:16 PM
We've had some extremely heated threads on that subject which explore the situation in great depth.

Here's one: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=635051
Here's another: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606504
One more: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415058
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=242579
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=204608
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=181928
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=166431
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=149756

Lots of info packed into those threads. You'll notice most of them are locked now. It seems folks get very VERY emotionally invested in favor or opposition to the animals and management issues. Tough to keep on the High Road.

1911Tuner
June 18, 2012, 02:32 PM
Wolves don't normally kill for sport. Hunger sparks their predation, and they look for the old and the sick. They're not looking for a fight. They're looking for food that they can take with the least risk to themselves. They'll also kill in order to teach their young.

A lot of assumed wolf kills are actually Coyotes...and they will kill purely for sport. Contrary to what many people believe, Coyotes will hunt in a pack, and enough of them can take down an Elk by running it in relays until it's exhausted and closing in when it's heart is at the point of bursting. If they don't consume the animal, the wolves come along and scavenge it, or chase the 'Yotes from their kill and take it.

ApacheCoTodd
June 18, 2012, 05:27 PM
I'd say the first thing to do is question the motives of someone stating "...that out west 60% of the deer and elk heards have been killed by roaming packs of wolves ...". Then question the stat and then after calm research, form your own opinion while carefully filtering the over passioned voices of either extreme. The truth, as usual can be found just off center in the middle ground.

exbiologist
June 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
Wow, let's start with the wolf introduction to the Adirondacks... Curious where you got that one

drsfmd
June 18, 2012, 07:14 PM
There are from time to time credible sightings of wolves in the Adirondacks, but there is no known breeding population... just a few who wander over from Canada from time to time. One was killed near the Sacandaga reservoir a few years ago.

I'm friends with *the* guy who would be the one in charge of such a reintroduction project if it existed. He told me that it got as far as a few proposals about 7 years ago, but that was the end of it and there are no plans to do a reintroduction anytime soon.

exbiologist
June 18, 2012, 10:14 PM
Exactly.... Rajb123, just take a deep breath, you can disperse the posse

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 12:00 AM
Back in 1990s NYS planned to reintroduce wolfs into Adirondick park which is the largest park in the country. I thought this was a very bad idea at the time and I wrote many politians to tell them to reconsider this plan.

Unfortunately, this plan did move forward (???) and is being done all out west too. I read recently that out west 60% of the deer and elk heards have been killed by roaming packs of wolves and that legal challenges to stop wolves have been hampered by so-called environmental groups.

Is there anything to do to stop the continuing damage?
To be perfectly honest, I am sick of confronting the mind numbing ignorance associated with the topic. Gray wolves don't damage the environment, that distinction is reserved for one animal exclusively, the absence of the gray wolf from the adirondacks happens to be a signifcant part of that damage, all courtesy of man!

BTW OP, its "wolves" not "wolfs" or "woofs" or whatever. You might start overcoming individual ignorance, and irrational fear, by ditching your subscriptions to "Outdoor life," "Petersens hunting," Predator nation, and Guns & Ammo ect..and heading to your local DNR office, or conduct real research on your own.

A few facts from Wisconsin,

1. 1.3 - 1.9 million white tail deer(yearly average, nations largest herd)
2. 32,000 - 40,000 plus black bear, unofficially the largest population in the lower forty eight
3. 3,000 - 6,000 Bobcat
4. 16,000 (absolute minimum)coyote
5. 800 gray wolves
6. 10,000 - 16,000 (number of deer killed by gray wolves each year in WI)
7. 500,000 plus, (number of deer killed by humans in WI diring 2011 ten day gun deer season)
8. 40,000 - 80,000(number of deer killed each year in WI by automobiles)
9. October 15th to the end of Febuary(length of WI's new wolf hunting season, five months)
10. Twenty-four hours a day, use of packs of dogs, total darkness penetrating thermal/IR imaging optics, digital callers, and trapping(approved methods of hunting WI gray wolves)

ThorinNNY
June 19, 2012, 10:50 AM
For what it`s worth, I spoke to the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation in Watertown NY. While people have discussed re-introducing wolves into New York State no enabling legislation was ever even introduced, let alone passed by the NYS Assembly and Senate.The final step of it becoming a law would have been the governor signing the legislation.
So the answer is no wolves have been brought into NYS by any branch of government.
Could a wolf cross the St. Lawrence River-assuming it is frozen over-from Canada into NYS? The possibility cannot be ruled out, but it is highly unlikely
and likely to be a a time only event.

ZeroJunk
June 19, 2012, 11:32 AM
I find it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff as far as internet info on this subject.

But, most of the people who live or hunt where the wolves were relocated wish they weren't there.

And as near as I can tell most of the pro wolf types don't live there, have never seen or heard a wolf, and likely never will.

drsfmd
June 19, 2012, 11:51 AM
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/A-century-later-the-wild-wolf-returns-2222681.php

Here's the story on the Sacandaga wolf if anyone is interested...

ThorinNNY
June 19, 2012, 12:59 PM
drsfmd
Thanks. Interesting article.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
I find it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff as far as internet info on this subject.

But, most of the people who live or hunt where the wolves were relocated wish they weren't there.

And as near as I can tell most of the pro wolf types don't live there, have never seen or heard a wolf, and likely never will.
FWIW, more facts direct from the source. The only chaff I encounter, emerges from all of the hyperbolic internet rhetoric, such as, "most people who live or hunt where wolves were relocated wish they weren't there!"

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/predators.pdf

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 01:30 PM
More chaff, direct from WDNR, Misconceptions and controversies

Wolves are the "bad guys" of fable, myth and folklore. The "big bad wolf" fears portrayed in "Little Red Riding Hood," "Peter and the Wolf" and other tales have their roots in the experiences and stories of medieval Europe. Wolves were portrayed as vile, demented, immoral beasts. These powerful negative attitudes and misconceptions about wolves have persisted through time, perpetuated by stories, films and word-of-mouth, even when few Americans will ever have the opportunity to encounter a wolf.

Wolves are controversial because they are large predators. Farmers are concerned about wolves preying on their livestock. In northern Wisconsin, about 50-60 cases of wolf depredation occur per year, about half are on livestock and half on dogs. As the population continues to increase, slight increases in depredation are likely to occur. In Minnesota, with about 3,000 wolves, there are usually 60 to 100 cases per year.

A few hunters continue to illegally kill wolves, believing that such actions will help the deer herd. It is important to place in perspective the impact of wolves preying on deer. Each wolf kills about 20 deer per year. Multiply this by the number of wolves found in Wisconsin in recent years (800), and approximately 16,000 deer may be consumed by wolves annually. This compares to about 27,000 deer hit by cars each year, and about 340,000 deer shot annually by hunters statewide. Within the northern and central forests where most wolves live, wolves kill similar numbers of deer as are killed by vehicles (about 8,000), and about 1/10 of those killed by hunters (8,000 in 2010). Wolves are a factor in the deer herd, but only one of many factors that affects the total number of deer on the landscape.

rajb123
June 19, 2012, 02:56 PM
I've hunted the Sacandaga area for 15 years.

So, there was a single wolf in that area in 2001? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

ZeroJunk
June 19, 2012, 04:12 PM
FWIW, more facts direct from the source. The only chaff I encounter, emerges from all of the hyperbolic internet rhetoric, such as, "most people who live or hunt where wolves were relocated wish they weren't there!"

I have been going in to wolf country most years for 30 years through either Chotea or Augusta, Montana. Seen them rarely and heard them all the time. Ask any of the ranchers, outfitters, or guides who make a living there what they think about the wolves. And most every body who lives there is involved in one of those three either directly or in support, not being much other place to work.

They do not want them. Period.

And the worst chaff comes from those involved in making the original decision. No way their numbers are going to reflect negatively if they can help it.

There may be no problem in Wisconsin.

But, the elk herd in Monatana wasn't abundant to begin with and hadn't been since the late 20's.

I can't see how another predator in addition to bear, coyotes, and mountain lions, and hunters was necessary and the people who live there don't either.

And those hunters spend a lot more money than somebody with a romantic notion about wolves.

exbiologist
June 19, 2012, 04:56 PM
I've hunted the Sacandaga area for 15 years.

So, there was a single wolf in that area in 2001? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.
It was probably air dropped in by the DNR's black helicopters along with grizzlies and mountain lions.

gearchecker
June 19, 2012, 05:32 PM
Is there anything to do to stop the continuing damage?

Sure there is. Kill them all!
It sounds rough, but that's just the way it has to be.

I know many hunters that swear if they're ever lucky enough to see one it’ll be dead before it has a chance to react.
The attitude out here is simple…”Shoot it and shut up”.

Out here in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana the wolves have substantially cut the herds of Elk and deer. It's not make believe, or the case of somebody making it up for their political purpose either. It's the plain simple truth, and the wolf has got to be stopped.
The wolves that were transplanted here are not native to this area, and they hunt without opposition. If you really believe wolves hunt only for food, you're sadly mistaken. They will kill a deer or elk to eat, have a snack and then move on, only to take another, and another, and another. The wolves roam without restriction.
Come out here any time you like. Wolves can be heard at night regularly. Sure, coyotes kill for sport, but the wolf is doing the most damage to the elk populations. There are now parts of Idaho closed to hunting elk cows, because the populations are so low. Before the wolf was introduced here there was more than enough game for open hunting of bull or cow elk. My FIL has hunted here for 35 years, and last year was the very first year he never saw an elk. No tracks, no scat, nothing to indicate that elk were around. They're gone and they're nowhere to be seen. He's brought an elk home every year since he moved to Idaho. His two hunting partners didn’t get theirs either. That’s a first for all of them
It's simply because the herds have been decimated due to wolf predation.
So for all the tree huggers, and wolf lovers here, you'd better take advantage of any chance you have to see one, because they're not going to be around here for much longer if it's at all possible. They're not natural to this area, and they will be eliminated by hunters and ranchers sick of the wolves destroying their livestock and the elk herds.

caribou
June 19, 2012, 05:46 PM
And here in Alaska, where there is and always have been Wolves, we still have NO PROBLEM with them decimating wildlife.

Then , again, we are not competing with them for limited resources in game, or habitate, as we just havent had our lands fenced off to keep and make $$ on domestic animals , nor is there concret slather'd all over.....

The habitat of the South is Mucho chango'd since Wolves were first exterminated by ranchers and farmers, , and the vast majority were poisoned, not Hunted. Reintroducing Wolves to the southern 48 might just help remive the inbred, the weak, the Cronic wasteing Disease, Brucilloucios, Lyme disease, and such......gotta look at the benifits, if you cant change it......

rajb123
June 19, 2012, 05:58 PM
I can't think of a single reason why people or wildlife should be forced to share the earth with wolves.... we got rid of them in the lower 48 +100 years ago for good reason.

ditto for sharks in the oceans....

ZeroJunk
June 19, 2012, 06:03 PM
I'm sure they kill some diseased and weak, but they also kill calves.

Comparing Alaska to Wisconsin to Montana and Idaho may not be useful.


If the people who live in the counties effected vote for the reintroduction of wolves I'm all for it.

drsfmd
June 19, 2012, 06:26 PM
I've hunted the Sacandaga area for 15 years.

So, there was a single wolf in that area in 2001? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Are you suggesting that you've seen other wolves in that area? Or that the carcass that DEC and the Museum recovered is somehow illegitimate?

ThorinNNY
June 19, 2012, 06:44 PM
Well, it seems New York State has managed to survive and thrive despite the absence of wolves for about 100 years now.I wonder if reintroduction should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism- in other words treat it as the importation of a non-native species rather than a re-introduction of a species that was once a resident species.At this point, I`m not ready to either endorse or condemn the idea, but I think any decisions of this kind should be made by the people of the individual states involved, not by some Washington DC bureaucrat.I do support removal of wolves from the endangered species list and I strongly believe people have the right protect themselves from predators, both 2 legged and four legged.
I`d like to thank Sam1911 for bringing those threads to our attention. Lots of food for thought there.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 07:31 PM
I have been going in to wolf country most years for 30 years through either Chotea or Augusta, Montana. Seen them rarely and heard them all the time. Ask any of the ranchers, outfitters, or guides who make a living there what they think about the wolves. And most every body who lives there is involved in one of those three either directly or in support, not being much other place to work.

They do not want them. Period.

And the worst chaff comes from those involved in making the original decision. No way their numbers are going to reflect negatively if they can help it.

There may be no problem in Wisconsin.

But, the elk herd in Monatana wasn't abundant to begin with and hadn't been since the late 20's.

I can't see how another predator in addition to bear, coyotes, and mountain lions, and hunters was necessary and the people who live there don't either.

And those hunters spend a lot more money than somebody with a romantic notion about wolves.
My friend, there is/was no problem in Montana either, or Idaho for that matter. The problems are human generated, with a very very tiny & loud, wealthy, and very very powerful special interest group controlling the dialogue via their proxy control of, rural small town America, and their death grip on congress!

I live dead center in the northern blue hills of northwest Wisconsin, I am in the field almost every single day, tracking, and imaging gray wolves, I'm one of a tiny handful of men who monitors the blue hills packs, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that what problems do arrise, emerge from highly irresponsible, and entitlement minded agriculturists, who are all heavilly subsidized by "we the people" to ply their trade! Often, fraud is involved, or another species, such as coyotes!

I know farmers that are the most ethical people one could ever hope to meet, men/women who live as I do, dead center of gray wolf range in northwest Wisconsin, and they have never had even a whiff of trouble from these animals. I also know of a fraudster north of Danbury, a man that was bannered by the media as having had the highest rate of gray wolf depredation in the entire nation(90 plus cattle a year), USA-Today ran articles about his misfortune with the evil, murderous gray wolves eating his poor cattle, problem was it was all lies!

But we never hear about that, no, we hear from the so-called "sport hunting media" how evil, and merciless the nasty gray wolf is, how they just kill for fun, and how a granny out west, blew a charging evil wolf away with her trusty .44(another lie recently published in Outdoor Life). I confronted "Skip Knowles" who is the editor of "Predator Nation" about a spectacular bit of hyperbole that appeared in the publications winter/spring issue, he personally penned it, an account in which he wildly declared that he had spoken with a Yellowstone wildlife biologist who had personally witnessed gray wolves kill and eat three mountain lions, in a single day! Don't believe me, look it up, it was published as an editorial by Mr Knowles, he refused to reply to my challenge to name the biologist, this because there wasn't one, he just made it up, and then published it in the magazine, which his readership then ignorantly soaked up as truth. He ended his editorial by demanding that we pursue our "right" to kill the evil gray wolves! Which they have now done.

As a hunter, its very frustrating to say the least, I for one, am sick of this mindset, you could overcome your ignorance by filling your head with "the real scientific data" on the gray wolf in America, how important it is at stopping disease, disease that crosses over, and back and forth between ungulates, but of course, you actually have to take the time to read the data. I promise you, you will come away from it with a new appreciation for this animal, and a very healthy dose of scepticism for the cattlemans associations standard propaganda lines.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 07:36 PM
And here in Alaska, where there is and always have been Wolves, we still have NO PROBLEM with them decimating wildlife.

Then , again, we are not competing with them for limited resources in game, or habitate, as we just havent had our lands fenced off to keep and make $$ on domestic animals , nor is there concret slather'd all over.....

The habitat of the South is Mucho chango'd since Wolves were first exterminated by ranchers and farmers, , and the vast majority were poisoned, not Hunted. Reintroducing Wolves to the southern 48 might just help remive the inbred, the weak, the Cronic wasteing Disease, Brucilloucios, Lyme disease, and such......gotta look at the benifits, if you cant change it......
The truth^^^^.

JohnM
June 19, 2012, 07:49 PM
Whew, the above is another totally one sided view point.
Living horseback distance from the SE corner of Yellowstone I will tell you the planting of non native wolves in the park was a boondoggle foisted on the public by a small special interest group completely uninterested in what the results would be.
The wolves were turned loose on an unlimited all you can eat smorgasborg of easy pickings. Now the population is out of control.
I don't have to go up in the park to see them now, I have them all around me.
The damage they're doing to our various big game species is devastating.
You won't find many people in this region who will agree with your views.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 08:17 PM
Living horseback distance from the SE corner of Yellowstone I will tell you the planting of non native wolves in the park was a boondoggle foisted on the public by a small special interest group completely uninterested in what the results would be.


Of course, the trusty old, "they're not native" default position of the cattlemans association. A lie! Gray wolves are gray wolves, same animal in the rocky mountain west as the those in the great lakes.

But don't let the truth intefere with your conspiracy theory, as we all know, they were all airlifted in by "tree huggers" looking to pacify your children into being hippies.

ZeroJunk
June 19, 2012, 08:20 PM
My friend, there is/was no problem in Montana either, or Idaho for that matter. The problems are human generated, with a very very tiny & loud, wealthy, and very very powerful special interest group controlling the dialogue via their proxy control of, rural small town America, and their death grip on congress!

I live dead center in the northern blue hills of northwest Wisconsin, I am in the field almost every single day, tracking, and imaging gray wolves, I'm one of a tiny handful of men who monitors the blue hills packs, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that what problems do arrise, emerge from highly irresponsible, and entitlement minded agriculturists, who are all heavilly subsidized by "we the people" to ply their trade! Often, fraud is involved, or another species, such as coyotes!

I know farmers that are the most ethical people one could ever hope to meet, men/women who live as I do, dead center of gray wolf range in northwest Wisconsin, and they have never had even a whiff of trouble from these animals. I also know of a fraudster north of Danbury, a man that was bannered by the media as having had the highest rate of gray wolf depredation in the entire nation(90 plus cattle a year), USA-Today ran articles about his misfortune with the evil, murderous gray wolves eating his poor cattle, problem was it was all lies!

But we never hear about that, no, we hear from the so-called "sport hunting media" how evil, and merciless the nasty gray wolf is, how they just kill for fun, and how a granny out west, blew a charging evil wolf away with her trusty .44(another lie recently published in Outdoor Life). I confronted "Skip Knowles" who is the editor of "Predator Nation" about a spectacular bit of hyperbole that appeared in the publications winter/spring issue, he personally penned it, an account in which he wildly declared that he had spoken with a Yellowstone wildlife biologist who had personally witnessed gray wolves kill and eat three mountain lions, in a single day! Don't believe me, look it up, it was published as an editorial by Mr Knowles, he refused to reply to my challenge to name the biologist, this because there wasn't one, he just made it up, and then published it in the magazine, which his readership then ignorantly soaked up as truth. He ended his editorial by demanding that we pursue our "right" to kill the evil gray wolves! Which they have now done.

As a hunter, its very frustrating to say the least, I for one, am sick of this mindset, you could overcome your ignorance by filling your head with "the real scientific data" on the gray wolf in America, how important it is at stopping disease, disease that crosses over, and back and forth between ungulates, but of course, you actually have to take the time to read the data. I promise you, you will come away from it with a new appreciation for this animal, and a very healthy dose of scepticism for the cattlemans associations standard propaganda lines.


Seems like you are quite enamored with the grey wolf. That is fine.

But, don't believe that your thinking is any more pragmatic than those on the other side of the fence.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 08:21 PM
You won't find many people in this region who will agree with your views.

More hyperbole, how about you cite even one(1)reputable source?

C0untZer0
June 19, 2012, 08:23 PM
I know that some of the wolves behavior is terrain dependent and there are areas of the country were feral hog and wolf populations live within a few miles of each other - mainly because of differing terrain. But generally speaking feral hogs do not encroach on or traverse wolf territory.

The wolves hunt hogs 24x7, keep the herds moving, reduce breeding and litter size and generally keep the hogs under control.

JohnM
June 19, 2012, 08:24 PM
Quote:
You won't find many people in this region who will agree with your views.
More hyperbole, how about you cite even one(1)reputable source?

Us locals aren't reputable to some people I guess.
Seen it many times at hearings.
No more from me, I won't reply to a brick wall.

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 08:31 PM
Seems like you are quite enamored with the grey wolf. That is fine.

But, don't believe that your thinking is any more pragmatic than those on the other side of the fence.
I am not on one side of the fence or the other, I am squarely seated in the middle, where the truth happens to be. I am enamored with a respect for the truth, and a general fearlessness in confronting lies, and distortions.

All you have going here is emotion my friend, nothing but hyperbolic emoting, cite a single reputable source that substantiates your pre-concieved notions?

Feanor
June 19, 2012, 08:32 PM
Us locals aren't reputable to some people I guess.
Seen it many times at hearings.
No more from me, I won't reply to a brick wall.
No, you're sourcing is not reputable, you have none, none at all!

Sam1911
June 19, 2012, 08:38 PM
Ahh, the "endless loop" point of any good debate. To read the rest of this thread, click on any of the others I linked before. They're all exactly the same.

Or, go read as many pages of scientific, biological/ecological study you can get your hands on and make up your mind for yourself.

If you enjoyed reading about "Impact of wolf reintroduction" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!