Two Hand Grip


PDA






oboe
June 20, 2012, 11:44 AM
Although I've been a shooter since the age of 10, I'm only recently a handgun shooter [last 2 years] for purposes of concealed carry and personal defense. I have two pistols - the M&P full size in 9mm and just recently the M&P Shield [also 9mm]. At an informal shoot, one of the instructors who also was a part of the meet up group watched me shoot and said I'd shoot better using the "thumbs forward" two-handed grip rather than the "thumb-on-thumb" grip that I've been using [she called it the "revolver grip"]. That's the second time a professional has volunteered that info.

I'm not at all comfortable with thumbs forward, which I've tried before, and it's a slower way for me to get a two-handed grip from holster to presentation. Is the thumbs forward grip really all that much better?

If you enjoyed reading about "Two Hand Grip" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ku4hx
June 20, 2012, 11:57 AM
I've never used the thumbs forward grip and never felt the lack of it was in any way a handicap. When I started pistol shooting in the mid '60s, one handed shooting seemed to be predominant since all I ever participated in was bullseye type shooting. Later I learned of the two handed isosceles stance and then the Weaver stance. It was many years later when I saw my first thumbs forward grip. I tried it and I didn't like it. It just never felt as secure as my old standard Weaver stance with left thumb locking right thumb down. I'm right handed. And of course YMMV.

If the grip suits you then use it. If not go with what works for you. The idea is to make the bullet hole where you want it to be. Any safe way you can accomplish that seems like the thing to do.

skeeziks
June 20, 2012, 12:06 PM
Hi Oboe,
I can practically guarantee you that I'll be the only one here that agrees with you.
I also do not shoot with the thumbs forward. I've been a revolver shooter my whole life and I just can't switch back & forth between grips. It works just fine for me.

beatledog7
June 20, 2012, 12:10 PM
Oboe,

Try the recommended grip. If it works better for you, use it. If not, don't.

BRE346
June 20, 2012, 12:21 PM
The grip that works is the one you grew up with.

I've seen clips of the thumbs forward, the thumb-on -thumb you described as well as the cup-and saucer method for pistols. I've learned to wrap my weak hand behind on a revolver. One can get a strong hold that way. It ensures the grip safety is depressed o a 1911 but it is not comfortable at all.

I have been shooting only two years and I learned the thumbs-forward hold from Facebook. I have learned that one can get a little steadier that way.

Read line one again.

HDCamel
June 20, 2012, 12:24 PM
One-hander here.
Use what works. Ignore the haters.

Sam1911
June 20, 2012, 12:31 PM
I'll go ahead and steal a whole post from 9mmepiphany to help the conversation along:


This is the grip that is taught with the original Weaver stance, as it is taught at Gunsite:
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/grip049.jpg

It is usually referred to as the Thumbs Up grip...even if you point the thumbs forward. The support hand is positioned more in-line with the grip angle as the philosophy of the Weaver is based on downward force being applied with the support arm.

The Modern Isosceles was designed with this grip:
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/grip052.jpg

This is referred to as the Thumbs Forward grip. The support thumb is extended forward along the frame to point at the target and the top of the wrist is straighter to apply camming pressure to the gun frame. It is based on the philosophy of surrounding the frame in such a way as the allow it to recoil and return to it's original POA.

While you can used the Thumbs Up with the Isosceles arm position, you can't use the thumbs forward with the Weaver arm position as the force vectors conflict.

Either grip can allow accurate fire, but the Isosceles allows faster followup shots while maintaining the same accuracy

Now there are some other grips that folks use occasionally, especially new shooters like yourself.

One variation is to roll the strong-hand thumb way down over the support hand. Some folks manage well enough doing that, though we'd always encourage you to try to improve your technique for better control and accuracy.

Another variation is the old fashioned revolver grip where the WEAK thumb is locked down over the strong hand thumb or wrist. You DO NOT want to do that with an autopistol. But you probably haven't been ...unless you've noticed a lot of bleeding during your range trips! ;) :D

Here's a very helpful video on grip from one of the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

kcshooter
June 20, 2012, 12:32 PM
There's a bit of relearning involved, but I do agree that you will improve as a shooter with the thumbs forward grip. It will be faster on followup shots as it positions your hands better for recoil control, and I find it more natural to get into from the draw.

RBid
June 20, 2012, 12:48 PM
There are reasons why this grip dominates competitive practical shooting now. It may not effect slow, target shooting at all. It is really about maintaining control for fast, accurate follow-up shots.

People here may not recommend it, but you may have difficulty finding professional shooters who don't.

At the end of the day, it's up to you whether you want to give it a real try or not. Best of luck, either way!

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2012, 02:54 PM
Well, Sam beat me with my own post...save me from posting it again. :D

I'll add that indeed the forte of the thumbs forward grip is that it is optimized for faster followup shots...no much of a factor if you are taking your time at a couple of shots a second, but much more of a factor when shooting 4-5 shots a second.

What the interlocking thumbs (revolver) grip provides is a perception (it isn't real) of a more secure grip, while introducing a couple of pretty obvious downsides.

1. It compromises the contact of the support hand with the frame, which both weakens the total grip and compromises recovery (sight reacquisition) from muzzle flip due to the uneven force vectors being applied.

2. It enables the compromising of the strong hand pocket where the frame should be firmly seated and facilitates the squeezing of the fingers as you press the trigger...both of which will affect consistent shot placement

holdencm9
June 20, 2012, 03:14 PM
Wow, good info, 9mmepiphany!

I switched to the thumbs forward grip about 2 years ago after seeing a video by (I think) Todd Jarrett. Although I don't shoot competitively, it has definitely helped me. I agree it probably doesn't make a huge difference in slow fire, for most people, but I think it helped me by a small margin, and if I ever get into competition shooting, it will really reap benefits.

The thing I think I like best is the consistency aspect. I know when I am doing a thumbs forward it is the same as it was last week, or the week before. Of course you can obtain this same consistency with ANY grip, but not as readily.

Here is the video I was talking about, I decided to go find it. There are probably tons of other similar ones by other qualified experts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

GCBurner
June 20, 2012, 03:33 PM
My grip has the index finger of my weak hand curled around the front of the trigger guard, pulling the pistol back tight into my palm, otherwise it looks like the Thumbs Up grip pictured. It seems to work okay for me, but I haven't had any formal training with handguns, I'm self-taught, other than reading books.

Sam1911
June 20, 2012, 03:36 PM
My grip has the index finger of my weak hand curled around the front of the trigger guard, pulling the pistol back tight into my palm, otherwise it looks like the Thumbs Up grip pictured. It seems to work okay for me, but I haven't had any formal training with handguns, I'm self-taught, other than reading books.

Do the training guides you've read promote that technique? You won't find any instructors or good competitive shooters* that do today.

Putting your support-hand index finger there robs strength from your support hand grip, which should be providing ~70% of your total grip strength on the gun. It also promotes an attempt to "steer" the gun with that finger, which is just another way of saying you're putting pressure where you shouldn't for best accuracy.

(* Except for Angus Hobdel, and that apparently has something to do with a hand injury.)

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2012, 04:03 PM
My grip has the index finger of my weak hand curled around the front of the trigger guard, pulling the pistol back tight into my palm, otherwise it looks like the Thumbs Up grip pictured. It seems to work okay for me, but I haven't had any formal training with handguns, I'm self-taught, other than reading books.
The Thumbs Up grip isn't as efficient as the Thumbs Forward and I had included it mostly to demonstrate the difference between the two.

What you are doing by placing the support index finger on the front of the trigger guard...which was very popular in the early 70s...unless you have very large hands, is displacing the support hand's contact with the side of the grip frame. But even worst, you are compromising the support hand's ability to exert lateral pressure on the frame.

The lower three (3) fingers of the strong hand should be providing medial pressure to bring the frame into the palm, the four (4) fingers of the support hand should be applying lateral pressure to both sides of the frame.

C0untZer0
June 20, 2012, 04:07 PM
I like John Holschen's explanation of grip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4XbDaUaJgo

GCBurner
June 20, 2012, 04:22 PM
Do the training guides you've read promote that technique? You won't find any instructors or good competitive shooters* that do today.

Putting your support-hand index finger there robs strength from your support hand grip, which should be providing ~70% of your total grip strength on the gun. It also promotes an attempt to "steer" the gun with that finger, which is just another way of saying you're putting pressure where you shouldn't for best accuracy.

(* Except for Angus Hobdel, and that apparently has something to do with a hand injury.)
Most likely. I think I picked up the habit when I got my first high-cap 9mm, a Taurus PT99, which like the Beretta it's based on, has the front edge of the trigger guard dished inward, and makes a natural place to put your index finger. I've move on to Glocks, and all of them share the same feature, except they all have the front of the trigger guard textured to provide a more secure purchase for the finger tip. My feeling was that hooking my finger there holds down the muzzle, and makes follow-up shots faster. I'll experiment with the other grips, and see if I can tell a difference.

psyopspec
June 20, 2012, 04:56 PM
The best shooters I've ever met don't just teach and encourage good techniques; they also are open to the idea that there might be a better way of doing things. This is one of the reasons I'll miss the info that Paul Gomez shared; at it's core, it questioned what some would consider doctrine in search of a better body of knowledge for all of us. I digress... I shoot thumbs forward, but I started out shooting with the weak hand thumb locking down the one on my shooting hand. I disagree with the notion that the way you were brought up to do something is always and forever going to be the best method. New techniques passed on to me by people in the know have improved all aspects of my shooting over the years.

Give thumbs forward a try, and be serious about it. For me, I decided I would shoot that way for 2 months, through a couple range trips per week and my IDPA competitions. The decision to stick with it was easy and relatively immediate since it provided faster follow up shots and stable, more consistent shooting. If it doesn't work out for you, then pass on it, and you've lost nothing. But if you're going to try it, be serious about it for best results.

showmebob
June 20, 2012, 06:38 PM
Lets get back to the original posters question.

[I'm only recently a handgun shooter [last 2 years] for purposes of concealed carry and personal defense.] [Is the thumbs forward grip really all that much better?]

This appears to me to be all about defensive shooting, not competitive shooting. I'm a believer that in defensive shooting you need to be able to shoot in many positions weak and strong handed and the ability to do so is more important than the slight speed advantage of a different grip. You can't always have a perfect stance, body alignment etc to allow for perfect grip. I believe the old "revolver grip" is better for defensive shooting but thats just me and YMMV.

GLOOB
June 20, 2012, 06:52 PM
Advantage of a revolver grip is it works with pretty much with all handguns. Using thumb forward or thumb up can hurt your thumb on a revolver and can jam some semiautos, dependent on the placement of the controls.

Unless you want to compete in speed events at the top level, I don't think you're going to miss out on anything. I started out with a revolver grip, but now I prefer the thumbs up. This limits me on some of my handgun choices.

Contrary to what others have said, I found it easier to get a consistent grip using the revolver grip. Took a bit of practice for me to get a consistent thumbs up grip. There is seemingly a lot of room to vary support hand positioning until you get a feel for what works best for you.

Sam1911
June 20, 2012, 06:53 PM
This appears to me to be all about defensive shooting, not competitive shooting.
Certainly, and if we were coming at this from a convoluted, artificial shooting discipline perspective (IMHSA, for example, or traditional bullseye) that would be a very good point. But what we're advocating here is the use of the techniques which have been developed in the 'action' or 'practical' disciplines in the last 30 years. They are ALL about shooting under sub-optimal conditions, from improvised and contorted positions, while moving, under, over or around cover, etc. This is DEFENSIVE shooting, as close to gunfighting as you can get in a competitive arena, and the basic techniques translate directly to the street.


You can't always have a perfect stance, body alignment etc to allow for perfect grip. That's a good argument against the Weaver stance, as Isosceles is faster and more intuitive to acquire, and comes from shooting traditions where stance, body alignment, and other elements of "perfect" technique simply do not apply.

kcshooter
June 20, 2012, 06:57 PM
I believe the old "revolver grip" is better for defensive shooting but thats just me I'm all about trying something and giving it a fair shot, and if it doesn't work, ok. So I'm not bashing at all. I'm just wondering.
Why do you think it is better for defensive shooting?

Plan2Live
June 20, 2012, 06:57 PM
Seems to me like this one ought to be a sticky, or at least a tacky where we can all find it easily.

coolluke01
June 20, 2012, 07:24 PM
I switched my technique about 2 years ago. I use the thumbs forward hold and have seen a great improvement in my speed and accuracy when shooting fast. If these are not good reasons to try this form for SD I don't know what is.

By canting the wrists forward you have more ability to resist recoil.

You can take your thumbs and point them at a target instinctively. With the thumbs forward technique hitting your target is as simple as pointing your thumbs at it.

A better hold is a better hold. This is factual, practical stuff.

Spend some time and learn a thumbs forward hold and you'll never be sorry. It's not that hard to learn or relearn for those old dogs. :)

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2012, 07:46 PM
You can't always have a perfect stance, body alignment etc to allow for perfect grip. I believe the old "revolver grip" is better for defensive shooting but thats just me and YMMV.
You're right you can't, but you need a basic foundation to learn the fundamentals before progressing to more advanced techniques. Teaching/learning fundamentals requires a consistent base to work from to correct flaws, which has the fewest inconsistencies...that really is the Thumbs Forward grip as all forces are neutral.

Once you've gotten a good grasp of the fundamentals, you can shoot off-balance, one-handed, off one foot...like they do in USPSA competition

coolluke01
June 20, 2012, 07:53 PM
If I also may say. The thumbs forward hold proves the Glock grip angle to be superior. Canting the wrist forward to their limit, like you will when holding a glock with thumbs forward, provides the most recoil management and allows you to have a place to return to that is fixed, ie. as far as the wrists are able to go.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 20, 2012, 08:28 PM
I'm a self taught shooter and my grip has evolved over the years to finally a slightly modified thumbs forward. I only modified it because my right thumb ends up holding down the slide release so I stick it up. Revolvers I shoot thumb over thumb.

MrBorland
June 20, 2012, 08:37 PM
What the interlocking thumbs (revolver) grip provides is a perception (it isn't real) of a more secure grip, while introducing a couple of pretty obvious downsides.

What's this "revolver grip" to which you refer? :confused: A number of us have seen the light. ;)

Not only am I thumbs-forward, but I'm thumbs-off, too. It's not just good for recoil recovery, but target accuracy as well, as there's less to affect the gun as the shot breaks. Since coolluke01's a contributor to this thread, I'll post one of my contribution's to his recent postal match (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=657990) (2nd pic), using the same gun, ammo, & grip used in the first photo.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/TomIDPA2012Worlds.jpg

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/May2012Postal686.jpg

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2012, 08:45 PM
You know I didn't mean you ;)

I was just using the term that the OP was using.

Folks should pay attention when MrBorland post about shooting a revolver well...he really knows what he is talking about. I'm still stunned by his trigger control with a coin atop his sight rib

Lunie
June 20, 2012, 08:48 PM
If I see the phrase "force vectors" one more time, I'm going to need to see some free body diagrams. :cuss: :neener: At least.



I don't believe there is a "perfect" stance. Years from now, the "new and improved" being preached today will become the "old and antiquated".

Be willing to learn, try, and evaluate.

Cheers.

kcshooter
June 20, 2012, 09:11 PM
Years from now, the "new and improved" being preached today will become the "old and antiquated". Maybe so.

And, if it makes me a better shooter, I'll be glad for the progression.

Sam1911
June 20, 2012, 09:16 PM
And, if it makes me a better shooter, I'll be glad for the progression.

Yup, sign me up! I'll be watching the guys winning the practical shooting matches and trying to learn to do whatever it is that makes them faster and more accurate than the old school guys.

RBid
June 20, 2012, 10:07 PM
Count me among those who will happily learn new techniques that are proven better than existing ones.

"The current way isn't always the best way" is how we arrived at thumbs forward. If an even better method is found, we would be silly to not give it a shot.


As far as using thumbs forward as proof for the Glock grip angle being superior goes:

saywhat?

I see what you're trying to say, sir, but there are a lot of people out there using this grip to great effect with a tremendous variety of pistols. The Glock's grip angle isn't required to lock the support side wrist out.

coolluke01
June 20, 2012, 10:51 PM
You don't like my Glock grip angle is better angle huh. :) I have a hard time getting my left wrist to lock out with a straighter grip angle. I've tried it many times and I point 1911's at the floor when I lock out my wrist.

I would venture to say that not everyone that shoots thumbs forward locks out the weak hand wrist. I think it's an important element of the thumbs forward hold. If you can do it with a 1911 style grip more power to you. I can't see how without having a void between the two hands.

To show my point, a visual. I know it's not perfect but this is what I have to work with.

Wrist locked out = \
1911 style grip = | I know it's not a straight grip but it's straighter than the Glock's
Glock grip = \

\\ Glock angle and locked wrist. Remember this is just to illustrate the issue I have. Not saying the Glock angle is exactly the same as the locked out wrist angle. I do think it's closer though.

\| 1911 style with locked wrist. See the void? That's what happens to me when I hold a 1911 style with wrist's locked.

RBid
June 20, 2012, 11:38 PM
Gotcha, sir.

I haven't had void/gap issues. My hands lock around a PPQ, SR9c, or XDm exactly like the M&P picture here.

1SOW
June 21, 2012, 12:47 AM
I'm not at all comfortable with thumbs forward, which I've tried before, and it's a slower way for me to get a two-handed grip from holster to presentation. Is the thumbs forward grip really all that much better?

Starting out with an optimal grip is A LOT easier than "UN"learning a less than optimal grip.
I started out in Bullseye and thought I could teach myself stance, grip, draw and presentation for action shooting. Bad choice. Work on/practice what has proved to be very fast and accurate.

Listen to Sam 1911 and 9mmEpiphany

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 21, 2012, 12:08 PM
Not only am I thumbs-forward, but I'm thumbs-off, too. It's not just good for recoil recovery, but target accuracy as well, as there's less to affect the gun as the shot breaks. Since coolluke01's a contributor to this thread, I'll post one of my contribution's to his recent postal match (2nd pic), using the same gun, ammo, & grip used in the first photo.


Got a guide on hand placement for a revolver?

Sam1911
June 21, 2012, 12:30 PM
Here's Jerry M's opinions on revolver grip: http://www.myoutdoortv.com/shooting/shooting-usa/jerry-miculek-revolver-grip

Browse that sight a little and you can watch the rest of the series to find out what the greatest living revolver shooter has to say about grip, reloads, trigger control, etc.

Surf
June 21, 2012, 01:37 PM
I was messaged about this post and asked to reply at a couple other places so I will just quote myself. I will first say that I carried a revolver professionally for a few years and before professional training I shot Chapman. I then adjusted more to an Iso with the revolver. I was considered a pretty accomplished shooter when shooting revolver with Chapman and then into ISO. I then moved into pistols and still kept a revolver grip on the pistol and was highly successful. However somewhere around ~10 years ago when I progressed into a thumbs forward and a modern or combat Iso my skill level kickstarted and progressed to a whole new level almost overnight. I will say that it took some time and effort to stick with the grip as my skills initially dropped. But once it took hold and the light bulb went on, it opened up a whole new world.

This was my reply elsewhere. The OP has not responded to anyone so this info might benefit others here reading this topic.

The modern combat or thumbs forward grip is IMO currently the best grip to use on a pistol. I am not saying that other grips cannot be successful but the modern combat or thumbs forward is a superior grip. I started shooting revolvers at a young age and in my early formal years of training and working professionally I carried a revolver for a few years and had a classic locked thumb or revolver style grip. Even with a revolver style grip on a pistol I was considered to be a highly proficient shooter and always in the top shooter categories in my peer groups. When I first learned the modern combat or thumbs forward grip my shooting proficiency actually decreased due to the change and it was frustrating. I stuck with it and it took a good week long advanced level pistol course to hammer my old revolver grip out of me and truly adopt this new type of grip. However once I gained high levels of proficiency with this grip it became more natural than the revolver grip and my skills kick started and I progressed rapidly from this point.

I feel so strongly about the grip I did a 3 part video series on the grip itself.

Part 1 is the history of the revolver grip and how I saw that it adapted to the pistol.
Part 1 - History of revolver grip and the pistol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTc5OG0AI64)

Part 2 talks about the mechanics, physics and what actually happens during the recoil phase of the pistol and why your grip is so important.
Part 2 - What happens during recoil and why is the grip so important. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRcxgAEn7zU)

Part 3 discusses how to establish a good modern combat / thumbs forward grip.
Part 3 - How to establish a good modern combat or thumbs forward grip. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4)

showmebob
June 21, 2012, 04:25 PM
KCshooter

My Quote:
[I believe the old "revolver grip" is better for defensive shooting but thats just me]

Your reply
[I'm all about trying something and giving it a fair shot, and if it doesn't work, ok. So I'm not bashing at all. I'm just wondering.
Why do you think it is better for defensive shooting?]
__________________
My thoughts: I have smaller hands with shorter fingers. Shooting different guns the "revolver" grip seems to work with all of them with no adjustment for grip size or gun controls getting in the way such as the saftey lever on my FNX.

Also my thought is that in a serious situation with the adrenaline flowing that gross motor skills would lend toward a clinched fist "revolver style" easier than the quicker thumbs forward or up position.

I can't prove my last statement since I've not been in that situation with a gun and hope I am never able to prove it. I have no reason to be a proponet or opponet of either style. I believe it is a personal choice we all need to make.

Stay safe!

skeeziks
June 21, 2012, 06:30 PM
No one would ever argue about anything that comes out of Jerry Miculek's mouth, and yet according to what his views are on a proper/inproper grip for the revolver, "Mr. Borland" is doing it all wrong.
But as we can all plainly see, Mr. Borland is definitely doing it Very Right!
That is what works for Him. I grip just like Jerry and that's what works for me. We're not all shaped the same.

oboe
June 21, 2012, 06:51 PM
I want to express my gratitude to all who have contributed to this thread. As a newbie who's interested in results when I need them - and I hope I never do - you've provided a lot of food for thought. Thanks!

showmebob
June 21, 2012, 07:10 PM
Since Jerry M's revolver shooting grip has come up, does anyone know or have a video link of how he holds a M&P pistol?

oboe
June 21, 2012, 07:17 PM
I am I'm sure others would just LOVE to see that!

MrBorland
June 21, 2012, 07:57 PM
I grip just like Jerry and that's what works for me. We're not all shaped the same.

Agreed. There's no single best grip. But it's worth noting that your grip is good for you because you found it to be good for you, not because it's what JM recommends. When it comes to grip(s), it's worth experimenting.

BTW, I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, but the thumbs-forward revo grip gets the end of your thumb close to some hot cylinder gases. I've not found it an issue with low-pressure .38spl (or even +P) or .45acp, but it certainly might become one with hotter magnums.


Edit:
No one would ever argue about anything that comes out of Jerry Miculek's mouth, and yet according to what his views are on a proper/inproper grip for the revolver, "Mr. Borland" is doing it all wrong.
But as we can all plainly see, Mr. Borland is definitely doing it Very Right!

Jerry really addresses the importance of 1) a high grip, and 2) letting your trigger finger placement determine where the backstrap gets positioned in your grip. Beyond that, there's plenty of room for the wheelgunner to experiment without doing it all wrong.

kcshooter
June 21, 2012, 08:51 PM
You don't like my Glock grip angle is better angle huhThat doesn't work for me either. The Glock grip still points high for me when in thumbs forward, yet my Sig and 1911 point right where I want them.

Now, the Glocks that I did a grip reduction to point perfectly.

I know that they point correctly for some as-is, but for me, the angle is unnatural and needs to be corrected to fit me.

Surf
June 21, 2012, 08:52 PM
Jerry Miculek shoots a pistol with a thumbs forward grip in the same iso stance / presentation as he uses on a revolver.

basicblur
June 21, 2012, 11:41 PM
BTW, I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, but the thumbs-forward revo grip gets the end of your thumb close to some hot cylinder gases.
That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the pix earlier in the thread - brother of our local gun shop owner lost part of his thumb when he shot his S&W 500 with his thumb forward.
I know there are reports of others out there on the 'Net, but I've seen his thumb, and it ain't pretty...

Sam1911
June 22, 2012, 06:06 AM
brother of our local gun shop owner lost part of his thumb when he shot his S&W 500 with his thumb forward.
I know there are reports of others out there on the 'Net, but I've seen his thumb, and it ain't pretty...

Going out on a limb here, I'd say he probably wasn't using a normal thumbs-forward grip. A .500 Mag has a very long cylinder and I don't think I could get my thumb that far forward on the X-Frames with my standard grip. Not saying he didn't, just that I'd want to see his grip.

jeepnik
June 23, 2012, 05:13 PM
Once upon a time, handguns were usually shot with one hand. Then someone figured out two was better and the Iso stance came about. A bit later a fellow name Weaver had a better idea. Then of course a fellow named Chapman came up with his idea. And on and on it goes.

Bit of truth. If you seriously intend to be able to use a handgun in a combat situation, you'd better be darned able to shoot strong handed, weak handed, two handed, and if you've got a third using that one too.

In addition, you better be able to do it standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, while walking, running, crawling on hands an knees and on your belly.

Their isn't a single "game" out their that even comes close to what you will experince when bullets are coming "at" you. In many cases, if you stand up, assume your favorite stance and two handed grip, while getting a good or even a "flash" sight picture, your enemy will be sitting around his next meal telling his buddies about the idiot who just stood there and let him shoot him.

But what the heck, I've never been a "master" shooter in IDPA, IPSC, Bullseye or any other shooting game. Maybe I should just give up now as I don't have any of the "skills" advanced by the "combat" experts who've never been shot at.:neener:

kcshooter
June 23, 2012, 05:48 PM
While the premise behind that is true, I can get a good grip, stance, and sight picture just as fast as I can get bad ones.

jeepnik
June 23, 2012, 05:58 PM
While the premise behind that is true, I can get a good grip, stance, and sight picture just as fast as I can get bad ones.
But, can you do it while bullets and other hunks of steel and such are coming at you, all while your body is screaming at you to get out of the way / run like the devil himself is after you?

Like I said games are games, not really the same thing.

newbuckeye
June 23, 2012, 06:47 PM
But, can you do it while bullets and other hunks of steel and such are coming at you, all while your body is screaming at you to get out of the way / run like the devil himself is after you?

Like I said games are games, not really the same thing.

That's when your training kicks in and the things that you have committed to muscle memory happen. And remember one thing that has been said (I can't remember who)...you are only half as good in a fight as you are on the range.

jeepnik
June 23, 2012, 07:01 PM
That's when your training kicks in and the things that you have committed to muscle memory happen. And remember one thing that has been said (I can't remember who)...you are only half as good in a fight as you are on the range.

And if your training teaches you to stand there, assume a stance and grip all due to muscle memory. What then? Games are games, while any practice is good, don't think being the best gamer will make you the best combat shot. Then again, old Alvin did win a turkey shoot or two.:D

coolluke01
June 23, 2012, 07:04 PM
Why you are focused on games is beyond me. This is about thumbs forward grip.

Mindless naysaying is not helpful.

A good grip is a good grip. If you practice a good grip when the SHTF hopefully you will employ a good grip and be successful.

kcshooter
June 24, 2012, 09:45 AM
A good grip is a good grip.Exactly.
"Games" or defense, a good grip is a grip which will allow better ability to shoot well.
A bad grip is a bad grip.

If you don't train to obtain a good grip, chances are when you do need it, it won't be there.

RBid
June 24, 2012, 10:43 AM
There is a lot to be said for conditioning and 'games'.

I was behind a collision at high speeds a few years ago. Admittedly, I was driving too close to the car in front of me, who suddenly ceased moving. In the moment, clarity struck:

- "I'm going to die"
- "I have ABS. I will roll through my brakes. I can steer."
- "Is someone behind me?"

I remember being aware of all of those things in the moment, and of doing two things:

1. Somehow, glancing up at my rearview the instant I saw the car in front of md stop. There was a car coming fast in the lane to my right, and another behind me.

2. Brakes + clipped swerve to the left, into the space between the white line and the divider.

I rolled through the space neatly, with next to zero room to spare, and came to a stop. I hit nothing.



The point of this story is that I had internalized enough over the years, despite never being in a life or death vehicle related incident, to be prepared when it happened. This is why people train. Many 'games' in competition shooting are essentially training, with incredible volume of reps.


I know a few guys who have been in exchanges. Their accounts range from "I was just trying not to get hit", to things like "I just focused on my sights" (or similar variation of 'did what I was trained to do').

When any kind of real situation occurs, the people who perform best are those who are best conditioned, and who experience clarity under stress.

A lot of these competition shooters are very accustomed to maintaining fundamentals under stress. I would certainly not want to get into a gunfight with Rob Leatham or JJ Racaza.

Nushif
June 24, 2012, 10:57 AM
I applied the thumbs forward grip in the first class I took, which is about .... two years ago? To be honest before that I messed around a to with a lot of different grips and guns. In the mean time while not a super shot I would consider myself passable, which seems to be more a product of practicing one way consistently.

Is the two handed grip better? I dunno, but it works for me. Then again with enough practice a lot of grips work well for a lot of people.

One thing I did notice though during class is that I found it a lot faster and easier to engage and disengage my firing grip for things like doorknobs, phones, reloads and hopping over fences (at least hypothetically, though I did reload. A lot. Being the only single stack guy in class.) I seem to do better with a "wrapped" grip than with an "interlaced" one, at least in that arena.

JO JO
June 24, 2012, 12:08 PM
I practice with strong side supported, strong side unsupported and reaction side unsupported, and malfunction drills. for a ccw/defense gun you need to practice know you gun and practice,
for shooting for points at a range stance,grip,breathing all will help,but shooting for self
defense can be very different.

Nushif
June 24, 2012, 12:21 PM
I practice with strong side supported, strong side unsupported and reaction side unsupported, and malfunction drills. for a ccw/defense gun you need to practice know you gun and practice,
for shooting for points at a range stance,grip,breathing all will help,but shooting for self
defense can be very different.

Ok, but what does this have to do with specifically the difference between thumb locked and thumb forward grip?

skeeziks
June 24, 2012, 02:34 PM
There are times to use the Thumbs Forward...and there are times to use the Thumbs Up...and there are times to use the Thumb over Thumb.
There are also times for a one-handed grip (either hand.)

We don't have to make this so complex....

basicblur
June 24, 2012, 03:01 PM
We don't have to make this so complex....
Ya got that right!
While I tend to use thumbs forward, when I took my CHP class, the former LEO that taught part of the class taught thumb over thumb for better weapon retention.

It's definitely easier to hang onto your gun with the thumb over thumb - with the thumbs forward, it's incredibly easy for someone to break your grip on the gun (in a struggle or ?).
'Course, when I offered this (optional) tidbit up once, I was scalded by the thumbs forward ONLY crowd. It was pointed out to me that you would / should never be in a struggle for your weapon (I just love how folks can predict the future with such certainty).

Doesn't make much difference with me - I can go either way.

coolluke01
June 24, 2012, 03:25 PM
Huge fallacy! Thumb over thumb does not provide a more secure hold at all. It may feel like you have a tighter grip because you feel that pressure on the bottom thumb, but it has no impact on hold force on the gun.

A thumbs forward hold places more skin in contact with the gun and spreads the grip of the gun over a larger area. This helps keep the gun from being twisted out of your grip.
I will put my thumbs forward grip up against your thumbs crossed grip any day of the week!

Also saying that there is a time for up, crossed and forward is not an informed statement. Some may stick with the hold they have and it will work for them. A thumbs forward grip will provide better contact with the weapon and allow for more control and faster followup shots.

skeeziks
June 24, 2012, 03:38 PM
Quote= "Also saying that there is a time for up, crossed and forward is not an informed statement."

Yes it is. You just didn't understand because I didn't elaborate on my statement.
When I shoot my revolvers, it's time for a Thumb over Thumb.
When I shoot my Sig, it's time for a Thumb Forward.

Sorry for not being more clear.... :o

kcshooter
June 24, 2012, 03:50 PM
It's definitely easier to hang onto your gun with the thumb over thumb - with the thumbs forward, it's incredibly easy for someone to break your grip on the gun (in a struggle or ?).If you are in a physical struggle, and you continue to keep both hands on your gun, you've already made a grievously stupid error.

coolluke01
June 24, 2012, 04:34 PM
Ok that's makes more sense. :) I thought you were saying that each situation would call for a different grip.

basicblur
June 24, 2012, 09:39 PM
If you are in a physical struggle, and you continue to keep both hands on your gun, you've already made a grievously stupid error.
And we're off....!

Next I'm sure someone will be along to lay out how my /your life or death encounter will be scripted.

Stuff happens - as they say, no matter how you train for you pre-planned scenario, when it happens, chances are it's gonna be nothing like you ever envisioned...

Murphy's law and whatnot...

gym
June 24, 2012, 09:55 PM
Very few pro's stick with either version, they use a modified version, modified to work better for them. If a firearm is a shorter barrell it is going to affect the way you hold it. Revolvers are completelly different, you can't place your hand against the cylinder. A cup is the best 2 handed motion with a snubby or a magnum. Some times shooting with the left hand rolled a bit to the right also, helps if you are shooting single action, cocking with your left hand.
I believe once you reach a certain level where you are shooting out the center of the target, you have found your groove. Same with feet, I was watching one of the top guys shoot the other day, and he said he uses a modified weaver, so it's ok to change things to adapt to what works best for you. There is no 1 way to do anything.
Hickock says the same thing, what works for you.

JO JO
June 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
thats what I ment in earler post you have to find your sweet spot and practice practice and practice

gym
June 29, 2012, 04:51 PM
I am in agreement with the thumbs forward style. But I have found myself on my Butt, shooting upward using the famous hurry up and shoot this guy before he shoots you stance. When possible you should use proper techniques. It will help even if you find yourself in the Butt shooting position. It's difficult to take everything into account, it has to be second nature. And you must get to a point where no matter what happens you are able to adapt to the situation. No one was around when I started shooting ,other than family, so I picked up a shmaydray of techniques and oddly enough they weren't much different than what works and is taught today.
I guess given enough time a man figures out what works and what does not, But it sure is much easier today when you have the type of guys like the ones in here to help you save years of trial and error. Sam ,9,Tuner, and others, will save you a lot of grief if you practice what they are telling you.It just may save your life someday. That 1/4 inch difference might make the difference in weather the guy can fire another round or his frontal lobe has been detached from his muscles.
But again if you found a system that works for you then use it, just don't be so stubborn that you refuse to try something new. If you can put 10 rounds in the bullseye at 50 feet, in 10 seconds, then stop reading and keep doing wht your doing. You may just want to pick up your speed. But otherwise you are very likelly to survive a gunfight. If you can't then try something different. Shooting paper is different because you can correct you aim on a stationary object, Not so with moving objects, it just happens too quick, You would be better off shooting quail or pheasent, when you don't know where the bird is and it just takes off. Try it with a pistol if you are under the impression that you are that good.
My bet would be that you don't hit 1 bird. That's ok most folks including me would have to be lucky to do it, but we never stop learning. If you get 2 in a row with a pistol, then you are very good, and need no assistance.

newbuckeye
July 1, 2012, 11:27 PM
That's good advise, Gym. I've been using the "revolver grip" locking my thumbs since I started shooting pistols in about 1987. I'm a fair shot but very interested in learning something new. Now....off to the range for "research"!

If you enjoyed reading about "Two Hand Grip" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!