First 1,000yd rifle build.


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Kachok
June 20, 2012, 10:28 PM
I have come to the decision to build my own long ranged paper puncher, I found a range nearby that goes out to 1k so I am going for it. Seeing as I am not rolling in cash I will probably be using one of my Savage rifles for the build up and would like some advice from some of our experienced members.
I am torn between converting my 30-06 to 6.5-284 Norma or converting my 270 WSM to 300 WSM, I considered going 7mm WSM but the fact that I can only get win brass in that cartrage was a turnoff.
Key elements in my buildup are finding a good barrel, stock, and scope for the task, any suggestions?

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GJgo
June 20, 2012, 10:48 PM
Given those choices I'd do the 6.5x284. Another option though if you want to save some cash on a new barrel, take the 270 WSM & load up some Berger bullets. They make a very sleek 130, 140 & 150gr in .277. I'd start with RL17 for top speed if it's accurate enough, if not step back to H4831SC or H4350.

I have a SWFA SS 16x on my long range rig. If I had it to do over again I'd get the 10X, eye relief is way better.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:00 PM
I have given some thought to keeping the 270 WSM and just working up a good 150gr VLD handload, but I was thinking that I sould get a heavy bull barrel anyway and I don't think the 270 could hang with the 300s 200+gr low drag bullets, even if they are 150fps slower. The factory Savage 270 barrel is pretty good for a lightweight but the el-chepo factory stock has to go for sure. The 6.5-284 Norma and the 300 WSM seem to have near identical external ballistics with heavy low drag bullets in each, I am a proud member of the 6.5mm cult but the .30 cal has more bullet choices especially since it might see some hunting duty (though not at 1,000yd) I don't think recoil would be an issue with the added weight, I shoot high performance handloads in my lightweight rifles currently with no problems.

Jim Watson
June 20, 2012, 11:08 PM
Agree with GJgo

Put your money into some good bullets and a good scope.
Then when you have worn out a .30-06 and .270 barrel, you can go into a specialty caliber with some background.

A top Long Range shooter in this area uses both 7mm WSM and 7mm RSAUM.
A lot of shooters are willing to take a little more recoil to get the high BC 7mm bullets.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:19 PM
Don't get me wrong the 7mm WSM has some rocking external ballistics with 180gr VLDs, but I am no fan of Winchester brass (below average QC in my experience), if Norma or Lapua made some that would be a different story. I have seen some 7mm short mag guys prefer the long actions over the short to prevent the long bullets from taking up their case capacity just like the 6.5-284 Norma which is a long action despite it's short case and parent cartrage.

chaser_2332
June 20, 2012, 11:29 PM
Buy a scope first, then put ur rifle together with whatever funds u have left

GJgo
June 20, 2012, 11:29 PM
Fair enough. In that case, I'd turn the 30-06 into a straight 284. Neck up Lapua 6.5x284 brass. Good to go, better barrel life.

Or, turn the 270 WSM into a 7 WSM & neck down Norma 300 WSM brass.

Ridgerunner665
June 20, 2012, 11:35 PM
Why get all fancy and chamber a barrel burner (you did say you weren't rolling in cash)?

There are far better choices for a beginner (or an old hand, on a budget)...various other 6.5 (260) and 7mm rounds (7mm-08), heck...that 30-06 will do fine.

Just sayin...

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:44 PM
???? Neither the 6.5-284 nor the 300 WSM has earned a reputation as a barrel burner. They are both good to 1,500rd+ of COMPETITION level accuracy. Far better then the likes of the 7mm ultra mag or 264 win mag for sure. That said I might be able to get away with 6.5x47/6.5x55 speeds but that is a bit more drop to deal with.

pdd614
June 20, 2012, 11:47 PM
Kochak, you don't need a barrel burner to be successful at 1k. What you need is experience gained through shooting and equipment tha doesn't hinder your learning. Why not try shooting the swede by rebarreling the 06? You will have great brass, less powder capacity than the Norma, and a proven long range caliber.
You could also pick up a chassis system from mcree's or xlr, and get a stock that fits you perfectly. Optics are a completly different story. What is your budget for the scope? And don't skimp on the mounts and rings. I always suggest seekins or badgers. These are all fixed cost items that will pay for themselves in the long run.

Kachok
June 20, 2012, 11:56 PM
And the 6.5-284 is not a proven long range caliber :scrutiny: it only held the 1,000yd 5 shot group record for like a decade (until a 300 WSM dethroned it) No dust on the old Sweed though, I absolutely love them, but the bolt face on my 06 is slightly smaller then Sweed spec, so that would have to be one more thing to replace :( Of course I could go 6.5-06 that is a close rival of the 6.5-284 but I would have to learn to form brass.
I am still confused about the barrel burner thing, this is the first time I have ever heard anyone call a 6.5-284 or 300 WSM a barrel burner, neither are using a large volume of powder for their bore size, and both have sharp shoulders.

longrange308
June 20, 2012, 11:59 PM
If I were you (which I'm not) I would contact my G'smith about building me a rifle on a FNH-USA/Winchester action, that should run you about $450.00+/-. Then, I would buy a really good barrel (Krieger or Broughton), that should run you $400.00+/-. Then, to start with, I would go with the H-S Precision Pro-Series Tactical stock (full-length aluminum bedding block), that will run you about $325.00. Then, I would have the entire action and barrel Cerakoted, that will cost you another $275.00-$300.00 (You do live in the gulf coast region).

This would be a great start to a 1000yd rifle. I would also go with the 6.5-284 Norma.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 12:00 AM
My bad...I don't consider 1,500 rounds good barrel life.

Thats why I stayed with the 308 and 300 Win Mag...the 308 barrels (4 of them) lasted 6,000-8,000 rounds before opening up over 1 MOA.

2 on the Win Mag...they went almost 4,000.

All 3 rifles are now shot out again...and I'm in no hurry to rebarrel them but I guess I'll get around to it sometime. I don't really have time to shoot them enough to justify the cost anymore...they have been in the safe since 2005. I used to do a lot of shooting (thousands of rounds per year)...but just don't have time anymore...I will retire one day though :)

Also...I've never competed...never had much desire to...I just wanted to learn to shoot way out there, and on a farm boys income (tobacco grower at the time), I had to stick with what was economical for me.

Anyway...the 6.5x284 is a fine round, no doubt...as is the 280 AI (the only "exotic" caliber in my safe)

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:06 AM
The 1500rd figure is their life expectancy for world class accuracy, not moa. The 300 WSM has every advantage (in terms of barrel life) over the 300 win, it burns slightly less powder and moves the vortex back into the neck of the brass thanks to the sharp 35 degree shoulder. So if your 300 win mag lasted 4k before you lost MOA level accuracy you could expect slightly better out of a WSM with similar barrel quality.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:13 AM
Reguardless of the caliber used what stock and optics do you recomend for shooting that range? I hear alot of good things about HS Precision stocks and the Vortex scopes but I think both of those run pretty high dollar, are there stocks/optics that provide similar quality for less or is trying to save a little cash a dead end street?

longrange308
June 21, 2012, 12:23 AM
Why not do this instead of building one:

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/

look at the Model 12 Long Range Precision or the Model 12 F Class

Sebastian the Ibis
June 21, 2012, 12:28 AM
There are a lot of people on here with more experience than me at this, but the Vortex CS is no joke. I called them for a quote on a replacement turret cap for a used scope I was going to buy, they sent me one for free the next day and included a hat. I was so impressed I went out and bought a new one instead.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:30 AM
Because $1,500 for just the rifle is out of my range at the moment. I was thinking if I could get a good stock for $200, a quality barrel for $150-$300 and a good scope for $300-$400 I could swing that, and would likely be as accurate as any high dollar factory rifle.

browningguy
June 21, 2012, 12:37 AM
For getting started I don't think you will go wrong with a Savage action, very good prefit barrels are available which you can install yourself (I did it so anyone can). Mine has a Sharpshooter Supply LVT stock, I built mine primarily for long range varminting and stayed with a varmint contour stock from Lothar Walther. As shown it has a 6.5-20 Weaver Grand Slam scope which is very good glass for the money, I've recently gone to an 8-32 though. Although is wasn't built for F class it shoots way better than I can at 600 yards and farther.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/savage12fv3.jpg

I may build a dedicated F class gun in the near future, and may go with a 6.5-284, but several of the newest BR world records at 600 yards and farther are getting set with the 6 BRX and similar cartridges. As an example the newest 600 yard light gun aggregate was just set with a 1.495" aggregate and a best group of 1.033" .The top European shooters have just about all all gone to 7mm short action mags if that means anything.

Have a look at http://www.accurateshooter.com/, there is a lot of good information there on different cartridges suitable for 1000 yard shooting.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 12:43 AM
You can spend a lot of $$$ on scopes...and really not benefit from it all that much (or at least I didn't). I bought a Schmidt & Bender once...it was a great scope...but NOT $3,000 worth of great!

High magnification is not needed...10x is plenty, and anything over 18x is more trouble than its worth because to get clarity at that magnification takes some extremely expensive glass.

For paper targets...pretty much any upper tier Leupold or Nikon scope with 12x or so magnification will do....GET ONE WITH PARALLAX ADJUSTMENT...whether its side focus or adjustable objective doesn't really matter, either one will do...side focus is more user friendly IMO.

EDITED TO ADD: As said above...the upper tier Weaver scopes are good to go too...I've never owned one, but I have had the chance to look through a few.

taliv
June 21, 2012, 12:54 AM
kachok

really depends on what type of shooting you are doing. if paper only (f-class) then my choice would be different than mostly steel. If paper only, I would take a little more recoil, that I would not choose were I going to shoot at steel, because if you have someone pulling targets for you, being able to see your own impact and trace is less important.

I won't get into the barrel burner stuff.


if paper only, look for a Nightforce benchrest 12-42x. awesome target scope for f-class. everything you need and nothing you don't. maybe pick up a used one or a demo off samplelist.com.

if practical shooting, i believe bushnell is about to come out with a FFP 4-30x HDMR with the G2 reticle, locking turrets etc. I dunno but I expect it to be well under $2k.


also, i kind of agree with you on win brass. it has irritated me greatly lately. however, i've found hornady brass just as good as lapua for my long range shooting lately.

longrange308
June 21, 2012, 01:01 AM
The lowest priced Savage F-Class I found was on Gallery of Guns for $$1,368.36, and it is chambered in 6.5-284 Norma.

It's going to cost you a lot more than $1,368.36 for someone to build you a rifle on your action, were talking $2,000.00-$2,500.00 minimum.

I will bet you, that you could look around your house and find some things to sell to come up with the $1,368.36 that you would never miss. I know, I do it all the time. Even if you had to save for it, it would be worth it to buy the Savage already built.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 01:26 AM
Where exactly do we draw the line of barrel burner? I hear that term alot and often in the context of cartrages that have no reputation as such, granted a 6.5-284 barrel will not live as long as a 30-30 but you are not fixing to shoot a 170gr core-lokt 1,000 yd either. Mil-spec 308s are rated at 12,000 rd of acceptable barrel life yet competition shooters don't get 1/3 of that because their idea of acceptable is much more precise even then sniper grade accuracy. So is any cartrage used in long range matches a "barrel burner"? I had someone call a 25 WSSM a barrel burner the other day, I politely informed him that the max charge of a 25 WSSM was the same as a 257 Roberts, so was the 257 Roberts a barrel burner all these years and nobody noticed?

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 21, 2012, 01:29 AM
Congratulations on your decision. As these guys said, you can do this on a budget. A Savage is a good solid place to start. I will warn you, you might have to purchase all new hats. Constant 1k yard and longer shots often swell heads and the occasional ego, but it is worth it. I am not sure what I like more punching a target at long range or taking a shooter that has never done it and watching their reaction when they do it the first time. Keep us posted and let us know how your build goes.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 01:38 AM
Its not really an exact science yet...but here is a chart that sorta illustrates barrel burners (overbore)...it is not all inclusive though (many calibers are missing)

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b446/pileofguts/overborechart4a.png

Here is a better chart (the grey bars are the standard they were measured against...which was a 222 Rem.)

http://www.65br.com/other_files/overbore_chart.jpg

Flatbush Harry
June 21, 2012, 01:39 AM
As I have a nice hunting rifle (a Ruger No. 1A) in 6.5x55 SE, I've been toying with a Tikka Sporter (24" bbl) for $1,695 or a Sako in 6.5x55 SE. I've had very good results using Lapua brass, 139 gr Lapua Scenars and 142 gr SMKs as practice and target loads. The 6.5x55 SE is widely used in Europe for 900 meter matches. It is also a wonderful CPX2 hunting round. With the right glass, it will be a fine LR precision rifle.

BTW, 1,000 Palma matches are shot with the .308 Palma.

FH

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 02:46 AM
I am very experienced with the 6.5x55, it has been my favorite cartrage since I was a kid, and my Tikka 6.5x55 goes hunting with me nearly every trip. I could put a long range target scope on my T3 since it shoots such remarkably tight groups but it is the perfect hunting rifle with it's Nikon scope and I hate to tamper with that. I would want a heavier barrel on a target rifle so I have more heat dissipation. If the 300 WSM and 6.5-284 really cannot get any reasonable barrel life I might just get another mid range 6.5 or a 308, but the extra bullet drop and drift would be very noticeable without a doubt.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 02:53 AM
Seriously...give the 280 AI a look...if you just want a well rounded long range gun.

I don't know anything about competitions or the rules thereof...but the 280 AI has the qualities of decent long range round.

It doesn't give anything much up to the 7mm Rem Mag unless you get into the super heavy bullets...and its MUCH easier on barrels.

Is it the best LR round out there...NO...but it is a good compromise for the shade tree LR shooter.


A 160 grain 7mm bullet with a BC of around .550 at 2,800+ fps is nothing to sneeze at!

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 03:14 AM
I have done my homework on the 280AI before, it is no slouch, it only gives up 30fps to the 7mm Rem Mag with 160s while burning over 10gr less powder, but if the 6.5-284 is a barrel burner the 280AI would have to be as well since they have a near identical bore/powder ratio. BTW the 280 AI can push 160s to over 3,000fps with a wide verity of powders. Most accurate load listed in Nosler #6 is 59gr of AA3100 hitting 3013fps in a 26" tube.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 03:23 AM
Its capacity is around 71 grains IIRC...that would put it in the same overbore category as the 270 Win...

The 6.5mm bore is a catch 22 of sorts...great BC, but when you try to push large amount of powder through it, it costs you.

The 280 holds about 5 grains more powder...but the bore being .020" bigger sorta takes the bite out of it so to speak.

My AI is pretty old, I had it built back before the 280 AI was standardized...I haven't kept a round count...but I would guess its had around 3,000 rounds through it, and if its lost any accuracy I can't tell it.

Mine is a 24" barrel...

If Winchester would offer the 280 or the 280 AI...thats what I would have bought instead of the 06...and when it gets rebarreled, thats what it will be.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 03:31 AM
Do you fireform your brass or buy AI brass? That would fit perfectly in my 30-06 action no doubt. I know alot of the LR guys like the 280AI but I have never shot the Ackly version.

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 03:35 AM
Its easier to just buy it...lasts longer too.

meanmrmustard
June 21, 2012, 08:16 AM
Where exactly do we draw the line of barrel burner? I hear that term alot and often in the context of cartrages that have no reputation as such, granted a 6.5-284 barrel will not live as long as a 30-30 but you are not fixing to shoot a 170gr core-lokt 1,000 yd either. Mil-spec 308s are rated at 12,000 rd of acceptable barrel life yet competition shooters don't get 1/3 of that because their idea of acceptable is much more precise even then sniper grade accuracy. So is any cartrage used in long range matches a "barrel burner"? I had someone call a 25 WSSM a barrel burner the other day, I politely informed him that the max charge of a 25 WSSM was the same as a 257 Roberts, so was the 257 Roberts a barrel burner all these years and nobody noticed?
I hear that term alot regarding the 264 win mag.

Have you given thought to the 260 Ai?

MtnCreek
June 21, 2012, 09:44 AM
Savage on a budget: Call Jim Briggs at Northland Shooter Supplies and get an ‘off the rack’ 26” Shilen Select Match in the chamber of your choice for a little over $300. You'll also want to upgrade the recoil lug. Call Kevin Rayhill at Stockade Gun Stocks and have him build a stock for it. He offers a stock ‘in the rough’ as a budget option. You’ll have to finish it and bed the action. If you wanted to spend a little extra cash, have him finish the stock and bed the action; he’ll mount the barrel for no additional cost. Now you have ~ $600 in it plus your rifle; not too bad.

I would grab a kindly used scope that sells for around $900 new and try to get it for around the $650 - $700 range. If you want to go cheaper than that, I have a Vortex HS mil/mil FFP on backorder at midway that will probably come in mid Sept. I’ve heard good things about them, so I ordered it for about $400. Midway has jacked up the price a little since then, but I don’t think I’m really going to need it. I could probably let you have it for what I’ll have in it if you wanted to.

Edit: I don't remeber if I paid $300 or $400 for the scope, it's been awhile ago. I do know they've raised the price by $100 since I ordered.

USSR
June 21, 2012, 10:14 AM
Kochak, you don't need a barrel burner to be successful at 1k. What you need is experience gained through shooting and equipment tha doesn't hinder your learning. Why not try shooting the swede by rebarreling the 06? You will have great brass, less powder capacity than the Norma, and a proven long range caliber.

+1. I had two 1,000 yard Match rifles built. The first was in .30-06 which I used for several years in 1,000 yard F Class Competition. Then I had a 6.5x55 built which was MUCH easier on the shoulder in prone, and was much flatter shooting. For that reason, I would suggest you go with a 6.5mm in whatever flavor, but whatever cartridge you settle on, MAKE SURE THAT LAPUA BRASS IS AVAILABLE FOR IT! Regarding the "barrel life" being discussed here, there is barrel life and there is competitive barrel life. While a particular cartridge/load may have a barrel life in the thousands of rounds for casual shooting or hunting, for competitive purposes it will be much less. With a 6.5-.284 running 140gr bullets at ~2950fps which is typical in F Class (and which I run my 6.5x55 at), you are looking at rebarreling at somewhere between 1000 and 1500 rounds if you want to remain competitive. Hope that is of some help.

Don

GJgo
June 21, 2012, 10:35 AM
If your scope budget is really only aroud $300, just get a SWFA SS 10x & be done with it. To get a better LR scope you're spending over a grand. Oh, and mount it on a 20 MOA base.

Drop is easy to click up for once you learn your rig. Wind drift, not so much.

You can use any american made 6.5x55 brass on your .473 bolt face, just not the Euro stuff.

I'm currently going through this same thing for re-barreling my Savage 308, decided to go 260. I don't need nor do I really want to pay for another big thumper / burner.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 21, 2012, 11:03 AM
I agree with GJgo, the SWFA is probably the best scope for your budget. I strongly urge ANYONE building a precision rifle to buy the very best scope that their budget allows. It is IMHO the most important part of the build.

USSR
June 21, 2012, 11:45 AM
You can use any american made 6.5x55 brass on your .473 bolt face, just not the Euro stuff.

Not necessarily. Lapua 6.5x55 brass fits a standard .308/.30-06 caseholder, and about 90% of Norma does as well.

Don

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:02 PM
I agree with GJgo, the SWFA is probably the best scope for your budget. I strongly urge ANYONE building a precision rifle to buy the very best scope that their budget allows. It is IMHO the most important part of the build.
OK you got my intrest, what does the SWFA scope do that the Millett Tactical TRS-1 or Mueller target scope does not?

dprice3844444
June 21, 2012, 12:06 PM
http://www.snipercountrypx.com/c-836-700ss-r5-mil-spec.aspx
http://www.tobystactical.com/ look here

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 12:22 PM
http://www.snipercountrypx.com/c-836-700ss-r5-mil-spec.aspx
http://www.tobystactical.com/ look here
Thanks but given the fact that Remington has let me down three times in a row, I think I would have to commit myself to a mental institution if I gave them another chance to screw me. On a $1,200 no less. I will build a rifle from rusted scrap metal and PVC before I ever buy another new rifle from Remington.

benzy2
June 21, 2012, 01:09 PM
If it were me, and I was on the budget you state, I'd buy a better stock, spend the rest on a scope, and then shoot that .30-06 with the factory barrel. Are you going to win? Nope. But then again, if you're just starting shooting that distance you aren't going to win with a $4000 rifle/optic setup. I would shoot out that factory barrel and get a load of experience first. Then, once I had a good understanding of what was happening in between me and that target way out there, I would then worry about spending the rest of the money on the rifle.

With how much the wind plays at 1000 yards, I'd be more concerned with learning to read the wind. It is going to be the biggest part of group size. If you had the budget I'd always get better equipment, but if the budget is the hold up, I'd rather gain the experience and then step into the better equipment as money presents itself, than to buy better equipment and be limited on how much I could shoot. $400 on ammo is going to make more of a difference in your ability at this point than $400 on a barrel.

dprice3844444
June 21, 2012, 01:13 PM
get the barrel done and send it out to be mellonited,last forever

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 01:24 PM
Maybe, I am no rookie to shooting though, I am good out to 500 but never tried anything beyond that. $400 in ammo would carry me a LONG way with my 30-06 bulk once fired brass for 14 cents a piece, RL19 for $15 a pound and premo berger target bullets 40 cents a pop, that is something I have always loved about the 06 it is so darn cost effective for such a high powered rifle. The recoil might be an issue through with heavy bullets and full charges if I keep it factory weight (6.5lbs).
Heat is going to be an issue though in any event, 22" light countour barrels heat up really really fast

BoilerUP
June 21, 2012, 01:25 PM
6BR is plenty for poking holes in paper at 1000yd.

Hell, an 8 twist 223 shooting 80gr Amax @ 2800fps outperforms 7.62 M118LR at 1000yd in terms of drop & drift!

243, 260/6.5 Creedmoor, 7-08 all get there just fine with less recoil than an '06 based case.

That said, If I were spending your money on a dedicated LR rifle, I'd get a 26" 284 prefit and shoot the 162 AMax @ 2900fps+...not shabby for ~54gr H4831SC.

dubbleA
June 21, 2012, 01:33 PM
if paper only, look for a Nightforce benchrest 12-42x. awesome target scope for f-class. everything you need and nothing you don't.

Yeah what he said, you cant hit what you can see and disect. Good optical quality, choice of reticles and great repeatable, postive windage/elavation adjustments. You dont need all that horse power all the time but it's sure nice to have it when you need it. I have a few Nightforces and a couple of the 12x42x56's mentioned above. For static paper punching at longer ranges they do quite well and have a huge following with BR and the LR crowd, myself included. Set in a quality 20moa base and rings and you are on the right track. Badger,Night Force, Seekins, Farrel are all top notch.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Rifles%201/Sav308.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Rifles%201/rem243.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Rifles%201/NFBRS.jpg

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 01:49 PM
Nice rifles doubleA what caliber is the Savage in? And what kind of bipod is that? Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
June 21, 2012, 03:01 PM
Kachok, I have no experience with the Mueller, but the Millett Tactical TRS, would not stand up to my .338 Lapua. It had to be sent off and to be honest the turrets on the Millett did not feel as good to me. More than once returning it to zero left it atleast a click off. It did not track as good as the SWFA did either. Its clicks just never quite lined up with the movements, it was like it gained a click after moving the turrets 8-10 clicks. That threw the tracking off. I wont say that they are all like this, but the original one I bought and its replacement both did the exact same. It was replaced with a Vortex... The SWFA had the best tracking and return to original zero over any of the other budget scopes including my new Vortex. It might just be a fluke that this SWFA is that accurate. Plus the SWFA is currently on a friends 50bmg, and still tracks fine after 800+ rounds. Just personal opinion based on my experiences with them. Please make the best choice that fits you.

USSR
June 21, 2012, 03:14 PM
Heat is going to be an issue though in any event, 22" light countour barrels heat up really really fast

+1. If you decide on either .30-06 or 6.5x55, PM me and I will give you my load data.

Don

Jim Watson
June 21, 2012, 03:39 PM
The main advantage of the SWFA SS scope is that fixed power keeps the cost down. It may also contribute to a wide range of adjustment, listed at 100 moa.

For "paper punching" I would go with the 20X, though.


The big wide bipods are Sinclairs, very stable but rather expensive, $200-$250.

Kachok
June 21, 2012, 04:12 PM
I did some more reserch on the barrel burner issue, turns out the life ecpectency of a 6.5-284 seems to run between 900-2500rounds depending on how you load them, shoot them, and the barrel in question, that does seem to be a bit of a burner. The 300 WSM does not appear to be as bad, benchrest shooters are putting 2000-4000 through them before swapping them out. No reliable info yet on the 280AI but I am still looking, and of course another 6.5x55 is always an option even if I have to change out my bolt face to use it. I do love that old cartrage, the fact that is still very relevant in 1,000yd shooting 121 years after it's creation speaks volumes as to how well it was designed. Thanks for the load data Don :)

Ridgerunner665
June 21, 2012, 10:26 PM
I am good out to 500 but never tried anything beyond that.

Things get real interesting real fast once you get past 600...it can be enough to make a preacher cuss at times. Mainly wind...drop is constant and once you know the trajectory it doesn't change much unless you change your altitude (other factors do apply, but thats the most significant one I think).

Wind...the darn stuff can be hard to see since air is invisible, LOL...that said, when its there, mother nature provides the best wind gauge ever devised that won't cost you one red cent....mirage...it can tell you the value, speed, and direction. But mirage isn't always there to help, then you gotta use whats available, anything from birds to grass, LOL...I've never owned a wind meter, always meant to get one...but never have...never really thought they were that useful though, they only tell you what the wind is doing there where you are..a wet finger, a pinch if dust, or a cigarette lighter can do that...

Oh...and don't skimp on the rangefinder.

Kachok
June 22, 2012, 02:10 AM
Yeah a few hours studying a ballistics calculator will show you how dramaticly things can change past 500yds even with an ultra high speed cartrage, and how much better heavy high BC bullets are vs lighter faster bullets, drop is pretty well a known variable if we have the distance and pressure but wind can be a game changer if it is gusting further downrange. At 1,000yd it is like quadratic equations meets lead and steel :)

Ridgerunner665
June 22, 2012, 02:31 AM
Yep...thats why I limit myself to 600 yards for hunting...I used to go farther, and luckily I never wounded any game ("game" does not include coyotes, groundhogs, crows, etc.), but as I get older I get wiser...and I guess I finally got old enough to realize that it was bound to happen sooner or later regardless of how good I thought I was, LOL.

My longest kill shot on anything alive was a coyote....1,019 yards (308 Win)...I have taken a few deer out around 800-850 yards too, also with the 308. The 300WM would have been better suited but for some reason I just never liked shooting it as much...kicked too much I guess. Another reason for the 30-06...a compromise between the 2.

That said...I don't set out to deer hunt at 600 yards, I try to put myself closer if I can...but the place I hunt is a huge open, flat river bottom and the deer are liable to come from anywhere at any given time, the wind is usually not in my favor either and theres not much I can do except set up for the long shot (a deers nose is hard to fool)...I'll take the long shot if thats the only option, it beats eating tag soup.

I guess it falls under the old saying "you gotta play the hand you're dealt"...I'm lucky enough to have a great place to hunt (lots of deer)...but its hard to hunt because it is so open, its like hunting in Kansas or something.

vaupet
June 22, 2012, 03:59 AM
I would dare to suggest not building but buying the Tikka T3 Sporter in 6.5x55 and maybe selling the rifles you wanted to rebuild to fund it. Possibly better of, except when the building is supposed to be half the fun.
I to love the 6,5x55 for what we call long range. (the longest range in our country being 600 meters, and there is only one of them, all the others stretche to maximum 400 meteres)
As for lange range scopes, I use the Schmidt & Bender PMII 4-14x50, (due to the play of import/export fees & taxes, they are "cheaper" here then I would pay a comparable Leupold) and am extremly pleased with them

greetings

Peter

Kachok
June 22, 2012, 08:17 AM
Peter, there are no more 6.5x55 in the states I am pretty sure I got the last one. The problem with a lightweight factory rifle is that they are going to be much harder to get any performance out of 22" barrels and those light barrels will heat up way to quick to use at any event, longer heavier barrels giver more speed and dissipate alot more heat. That is why all long range match shooters use them.

USSR
June 22, 2012, 10:51 AM
The problem with a lightweight factory rifle is that they are going to be much harder to get any performance out of 22" barrels and those light barrels will heat up way to quick to use at any event, longer heavier barrels giver more speed and dissipate alot more heat. That is why all long range match shooters use them.

+1. My 6.5x55 Match Rifle wears a 28" AMU contour Obermeyer barrel. At the muzzle, it's just under 1" in diameter. I had Boots flute it so it wouldn't be so muzzle heavy.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win6.5x55.jpg

dubbleA
June 22, 2012, 11:44 AM
Built my 6.5x55 on a Rem long action. I did have to open the bolt face .002" to run Lapua and Winchester brass reliably. Runs really nice suppressed.

L)LA 6.5 R)SA 223



http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Six%20Point%20Five%20By%20Fifty%20Five/a-1.jpg

B!ngo
June 22, 2012, 06:38 PM
kachok

really depends on what type of shooting you are doing. if paper only (f-class) then my choice would be different than mostly steel. If paper only, I would take a little more recoil, that I would not choose were I going to shoot at steel, because if you have someone pulling targets for you, being able to see your own impact and trace is less important.

I won't get into the barrel burner stuff.


if paper only, look for a Nightforce benchrest 12-42x. awesome target scope for f-class. everything you need and nothing you don't. maybe pick up a used one or a demo off samplelist.com.

if practical shooting, i believe bushnell is about to come out with a FFP 4-30x HDMR with the G2 reticle, locking turrets etc. I dunno but I expect it to be well under $2k.


also, i kind of agree with you on win brass. it has irritated me greatly lately. however, i've found hornady brass just as good as lapua for my long range shooting lately.
I'm no long-range shooting expert (at all!) but I can strongly recommend that whatever scope you buy, make sure it is a pre-owned (yes used, but at those prices a more pc name is needed) one. I bought a nice one from: http://www.samplelist.com/ but there are many other places to find them. Helps with the budget. Since these are precision items, lightly used and a return policy is a good thing to look for.
B

Ridgerunner665
June 26, 2012, 02:53 AM
Speaking of scopes...I just dropped the dime on a Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44 with the V-plex reticle.

This will be my first Vortex scope, my expectations are high...I hope its as good as everybody says it is...if it ain't, I'll put it right back in the box and return it! I've been following Vortex scopes for a couple of years...figured it was time to see what all the fuss was about.

On another note...30mm rings are freakin expensive! It cost me almost $100 for a set of TPS super low rings!

vaupet
June 26, 2012, 07:54 AM
this is what I ordered:
Unique Alpine tpg1-A3 in 6,5x55, topped with a S&B PMII 4-14x50 with P4 reticle First Focal Plane.
26" barrel, 1 in 8 twist, 1 inch diametre, two stage match grade trigger,
With scope, barrel and ammo, it will weight in about 20 lbs.

I hope it will be home for Christmas, 1/2 year production, S&B long waiting list due to US armed forces order and local red tape.

You can expect a range report as soon as possible

Peter

this is a nice link: http://www.snipercentral.com/tpg1.htm

mnhntr
June 26, 2012, 05:40 PM
Why not rebarrel the 30-06 to a 6.5-06?

Kachok
June 26, 2012, 07:34 PM
6.5-06 is basically the same thing as a 6.5-284 Norma, they are ballistic twins in every bullet weight, biggest difference to me is that the .284 brass has a harder shoulder reducing case stretch. If I were to do a 06 brass conversion it would be the 280AI, nice 40 degree shoulder, 7mm rem mag performance, and it is not nearly as hard on barrels as most other high performance cartrages. Much like the 6.5-284 it is also known for long range accuracy, it is chambered in several long range semi- custom rifles.

dprice3844444
June 26, 2012, 07:38 PM
Member



Join Date: October 3, 2010
Posts: 2,455 I did some more reserch on the barrel burner issue, turns out the life ecpectency of a 6.5-284 seems to run between 900-2500rounds depending on how you load them, shoot them, and the barrel in question, that does seem to be a bit of a burner

kachok,
pick out the barrel setup you want to use,and have it melonited.it will increase barrel life 2 plus fold.


http://losokcustomarms.com/

Kachok
June 26, 2012, 07:49 PM
How would a nickle finnish prevent throat errosion in a chrome lined barrel? I always thought the chrome was harder and more wear resistant.

dubbleA
June 26, 2012, 09:11 PM
My 6.5 Gibbs outruns my 6.5x284 by a pretty good margin, the Gibbs is a maximumly improved 6.5-06. If you want performance the Gibbs will give it though the price you pay is having to form cases which takes a bit of time. They both have steep shoulders, the Gibbs has very little body taper which helps with case stretch.


left=3200fps+ with 142 SMK's right=2950fps with 142SMK's
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/IMG_1818.jpg

BoilerUP
June 26, 2012, 09:18 PM
Can't imagine 142s with enough powder behind them to go 3200fps is easy on barrels...

USSR
June 26, 2012, 10:35 PM
Can't imagine 142s with enough powder behind them to go 3200fps is easy on barrels...

It isn't.:eek:

Don

Ridgerunner665
June 26, 2012, 11:02 PM
Would that not essentially be just a 264 Win Mag?


Which is another decent round that suffers from a short case neck...

Ridgerunner665
June 26, 2012, 11:10 PM
How would a nickle finnish prevent throat errosion in a chrome lined barrel? I always thought the chrome was harder and more wear resistant.

Melonite explained.... Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing
Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing is also known as liquid ferritic nitrocarburizing or liquid nitrocarburizing[8] and is also known by the trademarked names Tufftride[2] and Tenifer.[9]
The most simple form of this process is encompassed by the trademarked Melonite process, also known as Meli 1. It is most commonly used on steels, sintered irons, and cast irons to lower friction and improve wear and corrosion resistance.[10][11]
The process uses a salt bath of alkali cyanate. This is contained in a steel pot that has an aeration system. The cyanate thermally reacts with the surface of the workpiece to form alkali carbonate. The bath is then treated to convert the carbonate back to a cyanate. The surface formed from the reaction has a compound layer and a diffusion layer. The compound layer consists of iron, nitrogen, and oxygen, is abrasion resistant, and stable at elevated temperatures. The diffusion layer contains nitrides and carbides. The surface hardness ranges from 800 to 1500 HV depending on the steel grade. This also inversely affects the depth of the case; i.e. a high carbon steel will form a hard, but shallow case.[10]
A similar process is the trademarked Nu-Tride process, also known incorrectly as the Kolene process (which is actually the company's name), which includes a preheat and an intermediate quench cycle. The intermediate quench is an oxidizing salt bath at 400 C (752 F). This quench is held for 5 to 20 minutes before final quenching to room temperature. This is done to minimize distortion and to destroy any lingering cyanates or cyanides left on the workpiece.[12]
Other trademarked processes are Sursulf and Tenoplus. Sursulf has a sulfur compound in the salt bath to create surface sulfides which creates porosity in the workpiece surface. This porosity is used to contain lubrication. Tenoplus is a two-stage high-temperature process. The first stage occurs at 625 C (1,157 F), while the second stage occurs at 580 C (1,076 F).[13]





Its the finish on Glocks, Sprinfield XD's, and Smith & Wesson M&P pistols...it is a VERY durable treatment that is more than skin deep...people have had barrels done too, and with good results.

Its not quite as tough as chrome I don't think...but I may be wrong.

That said....barrels ARE expendable items, if you're gonna shoot...you're gonna wear them out...accept it!

The most I'm willing to put into extending barrel life is to use stainless steel instead of chromoly...but even that is a trade off.

meanmrmustard
June 26, 2012, 11:41 PM
Melonite explained....

Its the finish on Glocks, Sprinfield XD's, and Smith & Wesson M&P pistols...it is a VERY durable treatment that is more than skin deep...people have had barrels done too, and with good results.

Its not quite as tough as chrome I don't think...but I may be wrong.

That said....barrels ARE expendable items, if you're gonna shoot...you're gonna wear them out...accept it!

The most I'm willing to put into extending barrel life is to use stainless steel instead of chromoly...but even that is a trade off.
Melonite is very wear resistant. It will out live you, and is cheaper than chrome, believe it or not.

Jim Watson
June 27, 2012, 12:34 AM
There are getting to be some nitrided (Melonite, etc.) service rifle bores which are said to be holding up very well.

Now if somebody is willing to guinea pig a target rifle with nitride treatment and demonstrate long accuracy life, we might have something. Why would you not pay twice as much for a barrel that would last 3 times as long? (Just to pick favorable numbers out of the air, I don't know the costs and claims.)

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