Evaluation of 2 potential SD rounds for my ccw guns

Tested a couple of .380 hollow points to see if some rounds might penetrate enough that I might consider moving away from FMJ for carry. The Buffalo Bore 80 grain Barnes MIGHT.

The Hornady Critical Defense will, most definitely, NOT be replacing fmj. At the very least, I'd like a defense round to, at least, be able to penetrate the full depth of a sternum.

The last round was to see the performance of the .357 Federal 140 grain Barnes bullet out of my 2" snub nose revolver. (I've tested before in rubber mulch, but never through bone)

The tests were done in ballistics gel, with bone embedded 1/2" into the gel for half the shots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk

I've found that the entire Hornaday line is light and under-powered, with the exception of their Critical Duty ammo. Buffalo Bore on the other hand, offers a complete line of powerhouse rounds. Speer Gold Dots replaced all my Hornaday CCW rounds.

LD

I can only speak about the 380. The Buffalo Bore 100gr LFN out of my Sig 232 is outstanding. Last year I put down a deer that was wounded, it went down like a rock, the bone and tissue damage was impressive, never would have believed a 380 could do that. I am convinced it is the most reliable and effective 380 round I could carry, for that gun.

I have seen many positive reports on the Barnes X bullet. In any caliber, it just seems to work. I have carried them in 9mm and .45 acp, as well as .45LC.

I have put a box of Cor-Bon DPX (same bullet) through the LCP...but just can't get myself to trust the .380 cartridge. Loaded up as hot as Buffalo Bore does, and seeing the results of this test, I might just have to re-assess that position.

The tests were done in ballistics gel, with bone embedded 1/2" into the gel for half the shots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk

These tests are a joke. To claim the Hornady .380 Critical Defense "wouldn't even penetrate a human rib bone" demonstrates the evaluator's complete ignorance.

How much penetration into bone have you been able to obtain with critical defense, Shawn? If you don't like the results of the test and have a better test media, by all means, do it, and post it.

Critical Defense is an intentionally shallow penetrating line of ammunition.

I wouldn't carry it, I also wouldn't claim it can't penetrate a sternum. It's a shallow penetrator that doesn't even expand all that much in any caliber.

If I were going to carry an expanding .380 bullet, it would probably be something at the absolute top end of weights for the caliber, like the 102 grain Golden Saber, or something shown to penetrate well even in light weights loaded lightly, like .380 do.

What "bone" in the human body does your "bone" represent? It doesn't represent "sternum". It doesn't represent rib. It doesn't represent vertebrae. It doesn't represent shoulder. It doesn't represent arm.

I don't know of any "10%" ordnance gelatin formulation, which at 63-degrees F, calibrates at 8.6cm.

I know an invalid test when I see one.

I think we all have learned a valuable lesson here:

Don't hunt Bison with a 380 Auto.

Shawn, lets see your test data. Present it. Mix your gel to your specs and test these bullets side by side and tell us which one will deal with penetrating bone better than the other..likewise, which one performs better when it doesn't hit bone.

These rounds were fired into the same imperfect media. At the very least, we know which of the two bullets outperforms the other. The Critical Defense penetrated further than the barnes when bone isn't struck, the Barnes fares better against bone than does the shattered Hornady round. My bet...same end results if you mix your gel. Don't like the thickness of the bone I used...great, pick your own thickness on your test and go for it.

Here is critical Defense after hitting a MUCH smaller bone, a rib. I have to say...the shattered bullet in this video traveled 2" after being shredded by the rib. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD4Z5hKg8zs

Is their data worthless? Hardly, I'd say...critical defense tends to shatter when it hits bone, the Barnes has less of that tendency. This is enough data for me to lean towards the Barnes over the critical defense for my uses.

If you can do the test better, do it. I'd love to see the results.

These tests are a joke. To claim the Hornady .380 Critical Defense "wouldn't even penetrate a human rib bone" demonstrates the evaluator's complete ignorance.


:rolleyes:

Yet the OP's opinion carries a lot more weight with me, because he didnt come into a message forum and post with an attitude.

When all rounds are compared in the same imperfect medium it does allow for a comparison, even if flawed in some ways.

The copper bullet from Barnes from Corbon or BB is always my choice in 380 45 and 9mm
my 3 main caliber carry pistols.

I have never found Horaday HP from factory to give good results. Hand loaded to a hotter load they perform fime.

Remington 102 is one of the worst HP . I have seen in test as much as a 100fps difference between rounds. That is way to much .

GoldenLoki in his test useing a KelTec showed the 102 at 773FPS st/dv at 19.40(hights of all 380 he tested) and no expension

The Corbon DPX 956fps st/dv 8.72 penetration at 10.9" and .645 expansion

This from a KelTec thru demin .

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

No test is perfect. There is an old engineering adage: If your design does not pass the test, change the test.

A defect can be found in any test. If you want to criticize a test, be specific. Explain why you do not like the test. To simply say a test is worthless or the tester is incompetent, is not helpful

I can only speak about the 380. The Buffalo Bore 100gr LFN out of my Sig 232 is outstanding. Last year I put down a deer that was wounded, it went down like a rock, the bone and tissue damage was impressive, never would have believed a 380 could do that. I am convinced it is the most reliable and effective 380 round I could carry, for that gun.

You finished-off a deer with a .380?!?! :what:

Please, please, please, tell me you took pictures for those of us whose jaw dropped in disbelief (like me :evil:) so that we can see what happened for ourselves. :)

What "bone" in the human body does your "bone" represent? It doesn't represent "sternum". It doesn't represent rib. It doesn't represent vertebrae. It doesn't represent shoulder. It doesn't represent arm.

I don't know of any "10%" ordnance gelatin formulation, which at 63-degrees F, calibrates at 8.6cm.

I know an invalid test when I see one.
I agree.

The introduction of the bone into the test medium (whatever is being used it ain't calibrated ordnance gelatin) sounds like another confounding factor.

Thank you for posting the data and video.

I have one question though. Why are you testing Critical Defense ammo with FBI type protocols when Hornady readily admits the ammo was not designed nor will it pass the FBI tests. If you want a Hornady ammo that will pass the FBI standards try the Critical Duty ammo instead. (even though it's not available in .380 Auto yet)

As for Barns X bullets, I agree they are top shelf.