Ignorance will = A negligent discharge! Capstick Method


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H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 02:53 AM
Peter Capstick was a brilliant writer, love him or hate him, he is a good read. I used to love reading his stuff until after several hunts on the Dark Continent changed my impression of the veracity of his "non fictional" stories somewhat. In any case he is very entertaining and extremely descriptive to read.

HOWEVER he has done the world a great disservice in his description of how to "safely" handle a rifle. In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round claiming that since the firing pin spring is relaxed that it makes the rifle safe to carry as a possibly faulty safety latch is now out of the picture. And P.H.C.'s description and "safety" advice in this regard was dead
WRONG!!!!!!

"Dead" bolting a bolt action rifle in this manner is out right dangerous in the least and just plain STUPID at it's best and here is why.

Think about what you are doing. You are relaxing the firing pin so that it is in it's most extended position. The firing pin is now resting on the face of the primer and in fact is being held against the primer face with some tension by the firing pin spring. Drop or jar that rifle just right and with just enough force and the firing pin will (not can, not may, but WILL) have enough striking force to set the primer off, and obviously, causing the rifle to fire.

Magnum magazine of South Africa tested multiple rifle that had been set up in this condition and nearly all were made to fire some with a drop on the butt from as little as 6" (THAT'S INCHES) folks.

Why bring it up now? Well, this a rifle handling urban legend that just won't die. I had a guy proudly show me the "Capstick" carry method just the other day and loudly proclaimed to all that it was the safest way there is to carry a rifle.

I took a black felt tipped pen and painted his case head with it then pointed the rifle down range and "dead" bolted his rifle. He just about pooped a brick when he saw the firing pin drag marks across the case head and the small indentation the firing pin left on his primer.

Folks when you fully understand the mechanics of this procedure there shouldn't be one single solitary sane or logical shooter out there who would ever consider handling a rifle when it is in this configuration. Please think about it and please if you are doing this stop it before you have an ND and possibly something much much worse than just an embarrassing situation.

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splithoof
June 26, 2012, 03:22 AM
I watched that very incident play out when a total
"Range Bozo" put a round through his truck floor, and had his front tire shot out. Best part was telling him that he would have to wait nine or ten hours in the hot sun before I could give him a ride back to the nearest town!

MtnCreek
June 26, 2012, 09:20 AM
Wow. It’s hard to believe someone would advocate anything like this. I thought this was a settled issue when cowboys started carrying their 6 shot revolvers with the hammer resting on an empty chamber.

Gunnerboy
June 26, 2012, 09:21 AM
Is this for real..... are people that stupid???

68wj
June 26, 2012, 10:40 AM
Did Capstick ever have a Mosin? :D:evil:

Big Bad Bob
June 26, 2012, 10:47 AM
This doesnt sound like a bright move at all.

But what about hammer down on a lever gun? Same situation or different mechanics? I know a couple guys that chamber a round, then hammer down their lever guns. Some with and some without the modern safety.

Salmoneye
June 26, 2012, 10:58 AM
But what about hammer down on a lever gun? Same situation or different mechanics? I know a couple guys that chamber a round, then hammer down their lever guns. Some with and some without the modern safety.

No half-cock on those models?

Big Bad Bob
June 26, 2012, 11:13 AM
i am assuming so, mostly seen done on Marlins 1894s and 336s plus Winchester model 94's.

MtnCreek
June 26, 2012, 11:40 AM
But what about hammer down on a lever gun?

Some guns with exposed hammers have a piece that comes up (between firing pin & hammer) when the trigger is pulled. Lowering w/o trigger pulled, the hammer will not reach the firing pin. Just sitting here thinking about it, I know I have several old shotguns like this; can't think of any rifles off hand.

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 11:47 AM
But what about hammer down on a lever gun?

Yes same situation drop the rifle and you'll get an ND. I've never seen a lever gun that has an interceptor bar like a modern single action pistol. I'm sure they exist but of Marlins or Winchesters have them.

627PCFan
June 26, 2012, 11:49 AM
I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire. Not saying it cant be done but I couldnt engineer it to happen

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 11:53 AM
I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire.

Drop the rifle so the hammer hit's something solid. That'll do it. In any case I hope that you are not advocating that it is safe to carry a lever gun with the hammer down on a live round?

Double Naught Spy
June 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
HOWEVER he has done the world a great disservice in his description of how to "safely" handle a rifle. In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round claiming that since the firing pin spring is relaxed that it makes the rifle safe to carry as a possibly faulty safety latch is now out of the picture. And P.H.C.'s description and "safety" advice in this regard was dead
WRONG!!!!!!

So what was the publication in which this was printed? Page?

Snag
June 26, 2012, 12:33 PM
In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round......

Ok, I've never heard of this. Just so I'm clear, and I think I am, this guy says to pull the trigger and keep it held then chamber a round?

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 01:17 PM
Open the bolt hold back the trigger, chamber the round and gently close the bolt while the trigger is being held back. AKA by some as Capstick carry, deadbolting, African Safe...

But in any case it's STUPID and DANGEROUS!

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 01:25 PM
So what was the publication in which this was printed? Page?

DNS,

Capstick wrote about it in several of his books. I don't recall which ones or on what pages. You seem to have plenty of free time please feel free to look it up or read all of his books yourself and get back to us on the specific page paragraph and sentence.

In any case he picked it up I'm sure during his time in Africa as many South Africans I've hunted with use this technique. It seems to be a cultural thing over there left over I'm sure from using rifles with weak or faulty safety mechanisms in the old days.

Are you challenging the premise that this is an unsafe method of rifle carry or are you nit picking whether or not Capstick wrote about it? If it is the latter I really don't have the time or the patience for it!

Thanks for your understanding.

taliv
June 26, 2012, 01:52 PM
H&H, i agree with you that what he describes doesn't make a rifle safe for the reasons you explained.

Bigger picture, i think "safe" is a relative term and what is "safe enough" depends on a lot of environmental factors.

So... if you follow "the four rules" then in some situations carrying loaded, cocked and without a safety is "safe enough". In other situations, I wouldn't be comfortable with a round in the chamber regardless of other safety steps.

What seems indisputable, is that it's ridiculous to set people's expectation that a loaded gun that has the hammer down is "safe" and nothing bad could possibly happen.

Double Naught Spy
June 26, 2012, 08:24 PM
Are you challenging the premise that this is an unsafe method of rifle carry or are you nit picking whether or not Capstick wrote about it? If it is the latter I really don't have the time or the patience for it!

Wow, why so defensive? I just wanted to be able to look up the actual description you stated as being so bad. From your specificity, it sounded like you had the material in front of you. You had the time to write a glaring review of ancient history and so I figured you had the time to actually provide a citation.

redneck2
June 26, 2012, 08:28 PM
I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire. Not saying it cant be done but I couldn't engineer it to happen
I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

Back to bolt guns......Guess I'm missing something. How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

T Bran
June 26, 2012, 08:39 PM
redneck2
You took the words right out of my fingers as I too would like to know how to recock the firing pin without ejecting the live round.
Guess we arent very bolt savy.
T

MCgunner
June 26, 2012, 08:40 PM
I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

You are correct, sir. I carry my lever gun (a Rossi 92 pre safety) hammer down. It COULD drop on the hammer and break the safety notch on the hammer, I guess. I don't worry about it.

Dropping the firing pin on a bolt gun in the manor described is letting the firing pin rest on the primer. NOT a good situation, that. I've heard of a safety failing on a Savage M340, but I suspect someone messed with the trigger and messed up the safety adjustment or something, don't know for sure. Cheap bolt gun, anyway.

Deltaboy
June 26, 2012, 08:44 PM
IT can be done with some guns but I don't do it. I was taught that you never do it even on a lever action rifle.

Telekinesis
June 26, 2012, 08:46 PM
How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

On some guns like the Mosin, you can actually grab the back of the bolt and recock the striker/firing pin. But a more general approach (for any gun that cocks on unlocking and not on closure) is to grab the bolt handle and rotate it like you would if you were cycling the action, but instead of pulling back on the bolt, push down again and lock the bolt in its forward position and you will be ready to fire.

rcmodel
June 26, 2012, 08:57 PM
With any Mauser 1891, 93, 95, or 98, the 1903 Springfield, or later Model 70 Winchester, or most any other bolt-action rifle?

The back of the striker, or firing pin projects out the back of the bolt shroud.

Uncocked, with the safety off, Any minor impact to it will fire the round in the chamber.

The mystery to me is why a South African of all people would propose such a work-around to a unsafe safety in the first place.

They were using Mauser's in war, and for hunting from the get-go.
And there was no Mauser military or sporting rifle ever made back then with a "weak or faulty safety mechanism" in the old days.
If you put a Mauser wing safety on Safe, it stayed on Safe until you took it off safe to shoot it.

Lever guns like the Marlin or Winchester, DO NOT have floating firing pins.
If the hammer is down against the bolt & FP, and the lever is locked shut, it will also fire if the hammer receives a impact of any kind.

What they all do have however, is a very robust hammer safety notch that holds the hammer just off of the firing pin..

No, they are not drop-safe from a helicopter.
But yes, they have worked perfectly fine and safely for the last 150 years, if the safety notch on the hammer is properly used.

rc

H&Hhunter
June 26, 2012, 09:01 PM
I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

Back to bolt guns......Guess I'm missing something. How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

redneck2
You took the words right out of my fingers as I too would like to know how to recock the firing pin without ejecting the live round.
Guess we arent very bolt savy.
T

redneck, T Bran,

When you get ready to fire you simply lift the bolt and close it again. You do not need to pull the bolt back and extract the round to cock the firing pin.

T Bran
June 26, 2012, 09:06 PM
Thanks H&H had me scratching my head there for a moment.
I do think I'll opt for the safety as I have been known to drop things on occasion.
T

MCgunner
June 26, 2012, 11:18 PM
What they all do have however, is a very robust hammer safety notch that holds the hammer just off of the firing pin..

When the hammer is down on the safety notch, it's completely unloaded and NOT like an 1873 colt where the hammer is held back by the safety notch, but I agree, the safety notch breaks, things can happen. I simply don't worry about it. Like you said, they've worked well for 150 years. 73 colts, carry with five hammer down on an empty chamber. Winchester lever gun, hammer down chamber loaded.

MCgunner
June 26, 2012, 11:19 PM
Oh, and then there's the 93 Mausers, had a Spanish in 7x57. Cocks on closing. :D

Kyle M.
October 3, 2012, 09:57 AM
Oh, and then there's the 93 Mausers, had a Spanish in 7x57. Cocks on closing. :D

You still don't have to open it all the way, at least not on my 93. Just about an inch or so.

beeenbag
October 3, 2012, 10:12 AM
This theory really seems kinda silly to start with. It has already been stated that in order to fire after you "Dead bolt" or "capstick", whatever you wanna call it, you have to lift the bolt handle. Is it really that hard to go ahead and pull it back to chamber a round, being as you are already manipulating the bolt to start with?

I don't understand the benifit of this carry method from the beginning. You are already going to be making noise with the bolt so that is out. You are going to be moving your firing hand off of the grip so that is out. You arent "pre staged" so to speak because you have to manipulate the bolt, so that is out.

What is the added benifit again?

Shadow 7D
October 3, 2012, 03:11 PM
That's the other side of this
there ain't any advantage to this, and a good chance of a negligent discharge with any decent bump.

Detritus
October 3, 2012, 04:40 PM
What is the added benifit again

Never read Capstick, so I personally have no idea of the context. But my guess is that it's his (or someone he knew's) solution to not having to retire a favored rifle, or only one on hand, after signs of a safety failure in the field??

I've seen many a "Naw it'll be alright i'll just do Scetchy action X as a work around" since i started shooting and hunting around the general shooting public.
For that matter you see that type of crap other places too, worked with a guy for awhile that had replaced the broken lap belt in his pickup with rope and two carabiners:scrutiny:

SSN Vet
October 3, 2012, 05:08 PM
when you fully understand the mechanics of this procedure

and there lies the deficiency

1911 guy
October 4, 2012, 12:44 AM
The only time I have ever "Capsticked" a rifle is for storage, to relax the spring. Never occured to me that some people would actually carry a rifle around like this. Wouldn't it actually be faster to simply hit the safety than cycle the bolt (I know, only partially cycle)?

RPRNY
October 4, 2012, 01:12 AM
I carry a custom Mauser-action, Blin-dee-barreled, bolt-action .375 by the Continental Arms Corporation of New York. I had it made to hold six cartridges. If one loads directly from the action, however, there is always the risk of breaking the extractor, which is precisely what you don't need in the middle of a safari, let alone a lion charge. I therefore carry four rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber with the hammer down. My last shot was in the chamber of the barrel. Peter Capstick, Peter Capstick's Africa: A Return To The Long Grass Part One, Saile

Hardcover: 240 pages
Publisher: St. Martin's Press; 1st edition (July 15, 1987)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0312006705
ISBN-13: 978-0312006709

http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Capsticks-Africa-Return-Grass/dp/0312006705

Bibliography:


A Man Called Lion
The African Adventurers: A Return To Silent Places
Death in a Lonely Land
Death in the Dark Continent
Death in the Long Grass
Death in the Silent Places
The Last Ivory Hunter
Last Horizons
Maneaters
Peter Capstick's Africa: A Return To The Long Grass
Sands of Silence
Safari: the Last Adventure
Warrior: the Legend of Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen

Art Eatman
October 4, 2012, 12:20 PM
A hammer-fired rifle can have a free-floating firing pin; the pin does not touch the primer when the hammer is down.

I don't know of any, but a bolt could be designed/built where the spring impels the firing pin to fire, but the spring is short enough such that the pin is basically free-floating thereafter--and thus would not be pressing on the primer if "Capsticked".

Merely raising the bolt handle to cock the rifle is much quieter than cycling the bolt to raise a cartridge and chamber it.

Certaindeaf
October 4, 2012, 12:32 PM
.What is the added benifit again?
Maybe his/their thought was it takes more deliberation to move a big lever in an arc two times than moving a switch a quarter inch while still having the rifle "fully loaded".

natman
October 6, 2012, 04:21 AM
DNS,

Capstick wrote about it in several of his books. I don't recall which ones or on what pages. You seem to have plenty of free time please feel free to look it up or read all of his books yourself and get back to us on the specific page paragraph and sentence.

In any case he picked it up I'm sure during his time in Africa as many South Africans I've hunted with use this technique. It seems to be a cultural thing over there left over I'm sure from using rifles with weak or faulty safety mechanisms in the old days.

Are you challenging the premise that this is an unsafe method of rifle carry or are you nit picking whether or not Capstick wrote about it? If it is the latter I really don't have the time or the patience for it!

Thanks for your understanding.

I don't think there's any question at all that carrying a rifle in the condition you describe is stupid and dangerous.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not Capstick actually advocated doing it. You attributed it to him, there's nothing wrong with asking you for a citation.

Art Eatman
October 6, 2012, 11:25 AM
Aw, natman, go hunt it up: "Capstick wrote about it in several of his books."

Without regard to the comments about Capstick's veracity, his books make for good reading.

floorit76
October 6, 2012, 11:53 AM
There is the benifit of having one round over magazine capacity.

floorit76
October 6, 2012, 04:18 PM
Just how much of this did you read? It has already been explained that in most rifles, just rotating the bolt up and back down, without pulling it back, will cock the action.

USMC8541
October 6, 2012, 04:30 PM
Capstick was a great writer and a great drinker

CaptainCrossman
October 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
The dangers of dropping the firing pin when chambering a round are extreme personal injury or death, and they are real. Let me relate a story.

Someone I know who has been shooting and building rifles for over 50 years, had a mishap once with an early Mauser M93. As you know the pre-98 Mausers are cock-on-closing actions. That means the firing pin is loaded against the spring as the bolt is being shoved forward to chamber a round.

This particular rifle had a trigger job done, and when chambering the next round, skipped the sear and exposed the firing pin through the face of the bolt, as the round was being chambered. The gun WENT OFF and threw the bolt through the back of the action like a missile. Fortunately this guy had moved the gun away from his face and was turned and talking to someone as he was chambering the round. The only thing impeding the backward movement of the bolt at that point, was the ejector assembly/box/bolt release lever, and the bolt busted that easily as it went by.

The bolt then hit the shooter in the shoulder and stunned and numbed his right arm and shoulder. The explosion spread the magazine box and split the stock, and his one hand was powder burned and filled with burned and unburned powder specs that took weeks to work up through the skin and remove.

Everyone talks about the locking lugs on an action, how strong they are, 3rd safety lugs, Weatherbys and Remingtons with 9 locking lugs, etc.

Locking lugs only work when the bolt is LOCKED downward. Locking lugs no matter how many there are, are totally useless when the bolt handle is up. They really should put a sturdy locking lug on a rifle that when the bolt is up, impedes rearward movement of the bolt in case of a slam fire.

When the bolt is UP, the only thing stopping the bolt from hitting you in the face, is the bolt release/ejector assembly box. And it's not strong enough to stop the bolt if a round goes off while the bolt handle is still in the upward position. The bolt will go through the ejector box like it wasn't even there.

The bolt hit this guy and glanced off his shoulder and they found it 20 feet behind him on the ground. Now imagine if it had hit him in the face. He'd be maimed, disfigured, or possibly dead.

This type of problem typically manifests itself when over-zealous tuners try to get the finest of hair triggers on a rifle, and it's not a good idea. I'd rather have a trigger with a few more lbs. of pull and a safe gun, than a dangerous gun with 1.5 lbs. of trigger pull. But it can also happen with a brand new gun due to hidden factory defects.

I've also had slam fires myself with a pump shotgun Mossberg 500 that had NO trigger job, and with a Sako Finnwolf lever action that just by design had a slightly worn trigger/sear interface. I was able to repair both of them by doing a "reverse" trigger job, i.e. adding more trigger pull force required, by carefully dremel grinding a few parts, and careful dentist-like filing.

ANY gun you purchase, take out and test for slam fire or safety hold. The Mossberg 500 I had would slam fire when chambering a round hard, and also would fire with the SAFETY ON if I hit the buttstock with a karate chop with my hand. It had a defective hair trigger from the factory. The Sako would slam fire if I worked the lever with a lot of speed and force, the same as if you fired a follow up shot at a quick running deer.

I've also had problems with a Ruger M77 in 250 Savage caliber, that the tang safety would not stay on, walking with a round chambered and safety on, with the gun slung over my shoulder, the safety would somehow manage to click itself off repeatedly.

The Mauser 98 will also drop the firing pin when fitted with an aftermarket wing safety, if the safety is ground too much and does not pull the cocking piece back away from the sear. If the safety is ground in such a way that is holds the cocking piece, but the cocking piece moves ahead of the sear, then what happens is, the safety then becomes the trigger, and when the safety is clicked off and downward, the firing pin drops. Perhaps some of you have seen this phenom with Mauser 98's. I've had three Mausers that had that defect, and every one had modified or aftermarket safeties. The fix is a new safety lever, fitted with minimal or no grinding. Better off with a difficult to operate safety, than a dangerous one that becomes a trigger.

After all these problems with slam fires and defective safeties, I no longer walk with a loaded rifle on safe slung over my shoulder. I will walk and hunt with a rifle on safe holding it in front of me with both hands, like small game hunting with a shotgun. But otherwise I do not chamber a round in my rifle until I'm at and in my stand.

Shooting and reloading for 35 years myself, I've come to the conclusion, don't trust ANY safety, they all can fail. I don't store or transport my guns this way myself, but in retrospect the old school mindset is wise- the best safety is removing the bolt from the gun, or leaving the action open when not in use.

David Sinko
October 12, 2012, 01:25 PM
This is all very interesting. A year or two ago a guy was killed at a local range when an old Mauser he was shooting "blew up" and sent the bolt back into his face. I don't know if he had pulled the trigger or was attempting to chamber a round. Most people blame the ammo first, but then again it could be the rifle too.

Dave Sinko

SlamFire1
October 13, 2012, 05:20 PM
The “Capstick” method of carry is dangerous.

Military rifles were designed with safeties for a reason. Except those French rifles which had no safety.! If the soldier had a round in the chamber the safety was to be applied. Still there were enough accidental discharges in peacetime and in war zones that getting permission to load a weapon was rarely granted and was only to be conducted under very controlled conditions. Almost all of those military you see guarding something, they don’t have rounds in the chambers and it is very unlikely that they have loaded magazines in the weapon. A Vietnam veteran wrote that he was only allowed to put a loaded magazine in his M1911 once the heliocopter took off, was only allowed to chamber a round once he was on the ground in the drop zone.

You just have to talk to enough Soldiers that you will hear negligent discharge stories. Heard one last week, soldier was cleaning a machine gun in a room (might have been a M249), belt was in weapon, round in chamber, but bolt was back. Soldier took trigger mechanism out, which caused bolt to go forward and without the trigger sear to restrain the firing pin, the weapon proceeded to fire all rounds on the belt. Of course the soldier had difficulty controlling the machine gun and one of the rounds hit a rucksack with grenades. One grenade went off. The soldier I was talking to got a shrapnel piece in his leg, he was outside, when he came into the room where the grenade had gone off, one soldier had the frame of the rucksack in his chest, another in the room was bleeding profusely. He said both recovered in hospital, but if the medics had not been across the street, it is probable that both soldiers would have died from blood loss.

A number of designs have the back of the firing pin sticking through the bolt shroud when the firing pin is forward. All it takes is a blow on that firing pin and the weapon will fire.

Just do that with a Colt SAA. The firing pin rests on a primer. I have taken my USFA, lowered the hammer on a live round, then hit the hammer with a block of wood. The round always goes off.

I met a gentleman in a doctors office, he had an accidental discharge with a borrowed Marlin 336. This was a pre hammer block Marlin. He was unfamiliar with the mechanism, probably was familiar with H&R Topper shotguns which have a transfer bar mechanism. You carry those single shot shotguns with the hammer down and it is perfectly safe because the transfer bar is not in line with the firing pin. He loaded this Marlin, lowered the hammer down, and slung it over his back. While walking in the woods, he dropped his marking tape. He leaned over to pick it up and his back pack swung over and hit the hammer. The rifle discharged right next to his ear, deafening that ear. If the muzzle had been pointing at his head, that little boy he was bouncing on his knee would have lost his father.

akodo
October 20, 2012, 08:23 PM
Aw, natman, go hunt it up: "Capstick wrote about it in several of his books."


That's not right.

The person who is making the claim has the responsibility of providing the information.

It's not the job of those viewing it and doubting it to do the 'looking up' for them.

Coal Dragger
October 20, 2012, 08:30 PM
The only rifles I would ever attempt to safe in that manner would be a Blaser R93/R8, or a Mauser M03. Both have de-cockers that de-cock and block the firing pin, they are the actual safety. Taking the rifle off safe takes some effort though because you are re-cocking the firing pin.

JDMorris
October 20, 2012, 09:26 PM
I just carry my rifle chambered and cocked on safety.

420Stainless
October 20, 2012, 10:14 PM
Danger can be a very relative thing. I've never hunted elephants, lion, leopards, cape buffalo, etc. But, if a slight risk of an ND gave me any type of reasonable advantage over something I was hunting that can easily stomp me to death or eat me, I might take that risk. If I understand the passage cited above, the advantage is not in having one in the chamber, but in knowing that the extractor wasn't broken while that round was chambered under a controlled situation. No good reason to do this under normal circumstances, but when hunting in dangerous territory, it might well be worth the risk to help ensure a followup shot for all I know. I doubt anyone has enough statistical evidence to prove whether one is more likely to die or be injured from this method of carry vs. being caught without a followup shot on a dangerous animal due to a broken extractor.

Stantdm
October 21, 2012, 01:53 AM
That's not right.

The person who is making the claim has the responsibility of providing the information.

It's not the job of those viewing it and doubting it to do the 'looking up' for them.
I agree. H&H seems awfully touchy about this. "How dare anyone question his comment" is the attitude he conveys. He needs to cite the book and page. It may very well be that what Capstick, who unfortunately is long gone and cannot explain it, had a very valid dangerous game reason for doing what he did. Perhaps his extractor reason as noted by the previous post is exactly why he did what he did.

H&Hhunter
October 21, 2012, 05:33 AM
Gentlemen,

RPRNY very kindly provided you a quote that has Capstick describing his method if carry. He even put it in italics for you. Capstick mentions this method in many places in different articles and books.

Please feel free to believe or disbelieve me as you feel necessary. In fact please feel free to carry your rifle around in such a manner as Capstick describes above. Just make sure it's pointed in a safe direction at all times.

PS

The extractor has NOTHING to do with carrying a rifle with the hammer down as described above. That is an issue in a Mauser style rifle that occurs by loading a shell into the chamber and not picking it up from the magazine. If you "single" load a round with a Mauser it causes the extractor to have to "jump" the rim of the round as it seats in the chamber which will cause your extractor to fatigue and break over time. ALWAYS chamber a round from a Mauser from the magazine NEVER single load it by pushing a round into the chamber then closing the bolt over it.

That is what peter was talking about there in regards to a broken extractor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OKAY

It took me exactly 2 minutes and 23 seconds to find you a quote you lazy no good slackers.....;)

Here Peter Capstick explains his method of "safe" carry in great detail.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WMxSEEaqQOQC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Capstick+rifle+carry+method&source=bl&ots=XKXPpB0OiW&sig=OvZk7iSeLg_hmlRD1nfwKNc5KUE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t7ODUM3HOISs2wW0sYHYCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Capstick%20rifle%20carry%20method&f=false

Safari the Last Adventure
Page 121 first paragraph.

Are we happy now?:)

I'm sure with the slightest amount of effort you can find many more of the same from PHC. I used to love to read his stuff and have seen it mentioned numerous times in his writings.

akodo
October 21, 2012, 05:26 PM
It's not about the effort, it's about doing it because it is the right thing to do, and it is the wrong thing to do to try and force that on others.

It's like borrowing a $20 to someone and then when you ask them for it to be repaid they pitch a fit. $20 isn't going to break the bank, but paying back what you borrow is the right thing to do.

H&Hhunter
October 21, 2012, 10:35 PM
akodo,

Who died and made you a moderator?

In any case you are missing the whole point of this thread. It isn't a truth test whether PHC said it or not it's about a very dangerous way to carry a rifle.

In any case now you can be satisfied that it was indeed recommended by PHC and that it's a very dangerous and unwise piece of advise. I don't mind quoting material but there is no law that says ANYBODY has to do it ESPECIALLY not on a common knowledge issues like this. Please keep in mind that this is NOTHING like borrowing money from somebody and then not paying it back. I don't owe you or anybody else on this site ANYTHING. With that being said I always strive to keep my posts factual, unlike some who post here and if my material is not factual I try and make it a very obvious joke or sarcastic post. I found DNS's demand, not a request but a demand, for a direct page and paragraph post to be rude and I will not go out of my way to satisfy the demands of a rude person.

And you are welcome for the quote. BTW..

Clipper
October 22, 2012, 08:47 AM
I'm with you, H&H, these CITE/LINK guys that want someone else to do their thinking for them wear me out.

H&Hhunter
October 22, 2012, 10:27 AM
I'm with you, H&H, these CITE/LINK guys that want someone else to do their thinking for them wear me out.

If I've got a question about something I look it up, seems pretty simple to me.:)

Stantdm
October 22, 2012, 01:13 PM
akodo,

Who died and made you a moderator?

In any case you are missing the whole point of this thread. It isn't a truth test whether PHC said it or not it's about a very dangerous way to carry a rifle.

In any case now you can be satisfied that it was indeed recommended by PHC and that it's a very dangerous and unwise piece of advise. I don't mind quoting material but there is no law that says ANYBODY has to do it ESPECIALLY not on a common knowledge issues like this. Please keep in mind that this is NOTHING like borrowing money from somebody and then not paying it back. I don't owe you or anybody else on this site ANYTHING. With that being said I always strive to keep my posts factual, unlike some who post here and if my material is not factual I try and make it a very obvious joke or sarcastic post. I found DNS's demand, not a request but a demand, for a direct page and paragraph post to be rude and I will not go out of my way to satisfy the demands of a rude person.

And you are welcome for the quote. BTW..
Thank you for providing the citation. I am not a lazy slacker, simply someone who doesn't know how to do everything you professional blog site creatures do. After reading Capsticks method of carrying with the firing pin down it makes sense IN THE ENVIRONMENT HE WAS HUNTING IN. For whitetails, not so much. Is it unsafe? Sure. Is it okay to do it in the scenario Capstick was in? Maybe, makes sense if you believe its safer than the safety on your bolt action. Would I do it? No. I am familiar with the rifles I shoot and changing to that method would just slow me up.

I would also advise you not to refer to me as a lazy slacker again. It makes you sound like the azzhole you may be.

H&Hhunter
October 22, 2012, 02:17 PM
Stantdm,

You may not be a "professional" blog site creature and neither am I. But there is something you need to know it's very important so that you don't get your feeling hurt again.

This symbol ;) means just kidding, don't take this serious.

This symbol ;) is the one I put behind my lazy slacker line which was obviously a joke. You will be far less prone to emotional internet pain (EIP) if you keep this in mind in the future.

And lets address this real quick.

Is it okay to do it in the scenario Capstick was in? Maybe, makes sense if you believe its safer than the safety on your bolt action. Would I do it? No. I am familiar with the rifles I shoot and changing to that method would just slow me up.

It is never in ANY environment okay to carry a rifle in the condition that Capstick wrote about. ESPECIALLY not in the DG environment where rifles are very likely to be dropped slammed on the ground ETC. Gayanna of the Zimbabwe professional hunters standards board did a study where they took various rifles and loaded them in the condition mentioned. The majority made to fire after being dropped from a vertical height of 6 inches.

It makes no difference if you "believe it's safer than the safety on your bolt action." It is not safer in fact it extremely dangerous, it's been proven and your feelings/ beliefs have nothing to do with it.

Cosmoline
October 22, 2012, 02:33 PM
It is never in ANY environment okay to carry a rifle in the condition that Capstick wrote about.

Truly. This shouldn't even be a point of debate. And Capstick wasn't hunting in 1870, so he should have known the dangers. He tries to justify himself in "Safari: The Last Adventure" at pp 120-121, by arguing that he's never seen a ND using his method. But that's scarcely justification for pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer on a primer. Thankfully for him he was likely using big rounds with some pretty hard primers, but I can guarantee he was taunting those things. Any hard smack would have set them off.

He also seems to have been reacting to PH's who forbade their clients to use safeties. I can kind of see the logic there--they simply don't trust the dudes to do it right and don't want to get blown in half by some "Sahib" who "thought it was on safe" and ignores all the safety rules. But having a client who will break the four rules with impunity drop a hammer on a LIVE ROUND is not really a sane solution.

A lot of nostalgia gets built up around the good old days when Capstick pulled these stunts and Elmer (lord bless him) was blowing up single action armies with massive charges. But I have to say it's a lot harder to get away with tom foolery these days, when the whole of the internet can ride you over dumb decisions.

Stantdm
October 23, 2012, 02:26 AM
Just to close this H&H......

My feelings were not hurt. I merely pointed out that calling those of us who wanted a citation "lazy no good slackers" was not a good idea. Winks or not.

You don't need a red 40 point word to state your opinion. A simple "wrong" would suffice.

I would be surprised if anybody carries their rifle with a uncocked bolt on a live round because they read that Capstick advocated it. What he did worked for him in the environment he was in and it was his choice to make. You left out his reasons for doing it in your report of his actions. You also left out what else he said about it.

H&Hhunter
October 23, 2012, 03:07 AM
I would be surprised if anybody carries their rifle with a uncocked bolt on a live round because they read that Capstick advocated it

You'd be surprised then, I've had more than one person explain the "Capstick" method of carry to me over the years.

What he did worked for him in the environment he was in and it was his choice to make. You left out his reasons for doing it in your report of his actions. You also left out what else he said about it.

Which makes no difference as the whole premise is misguided and dangerous it makes no difference why he was doing it or in what environment it was done in, but we've already covered that.

His environment is the same that exists today and one in which I've had the honor of hunting in multiple times. Nobody in their right mind would carry a rifle that way. So the question here is are you defending Capstick because you are an ardent fan or are you simply trying to lick your wounds to save face? Because I'll state this along with the throngs of others here who understand why it's so dangerous just one more time.

It is NEVER in ANY circumstances okay to carry a rifle with a live a round in the chamber with the firing pin in the relaxed (trigger pulled) position. It will fire if dropped or bumped, period. It doesn't matter what environment you are operating in, it doesn't matter what excuses you create in your head, it doesn't matter what your geographic location is.

Carrying a rifle this way will eventually get you or somebody around you killed. Are we perfectly clear now?

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