New reloader with 45C question


PDA






kohana
June 26, 2012, 11:29 PM
Hi all,
I'm reloading once fired factory shells with Oregon Trails 200gr LRNFP bullets and Trail Boss. I have several brands of shells all in the 1.280-1.285 range except a group of Hornady Leverevolution shells that are 1.230-1.235 in length.
The other shell, bullet meets the required 1.600 when seated to the crimp ring and crimped. As a revolver round is supposed to be crimped does this mean I can't use this bullet in the short cases and need to find a bullet weight like 180gn that allows a shorter length and assume the crimp ring will be in a usable spot?
I think I understand that too small an area for a prescribed load can cause an over pressure but if Hornaday made these shells shorter, why? and are the usefull for reloading.
Another question, I have a RCBS bullet puller and in its instructions it says not to use it on a black powder loaded round, Why?
Thanks for any info on my whys,
Bob

If you enjoyed reading about "New reloader with 45C question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Josh45
June 27, 2012, 01:56 AM
The shorter Hornady cases were meant to be used with the 160 Gr FTX bullets. Those cases have to be trimmed in order to meet case specs. At least it says this more or less in my Hornady manual #8. I would put those to the side until someone with more experience comes along with that.

As for the Black Powder, Im not sure why. I don't load it so no real answer there.

huntincowboy
June 27, 2012, 02:49 AM
I have some of those cases and I was disappointed to find out they were so short. I had so few (~20) that I just set them aside. One day I was curious about making some snake shot and I decided to work up a load using the hornady short brass. They work great for snake shot and cost a fraction of what the speer ones cost

Lost Sheep
June 27, 2012, 04:18 AM
I believe black powder can go off with an impact. Smokeless powder is much more stable. Also, black powder explodes. Smokeless powder only burns. It has to be under great pressure to speed the burning process to act as it does behind a bullet.

You will want to get confirmation from a black powder shooter, as I am no expert in that arena.

The main reason for specifying the overall length of the cartridge is as a proxy measurement for the volume of space under the bullet for the powder to burn. The greater the volume, the lower the peak pressure (all other things being equal), so if you have a shorter case and go with a shorter OAL so that you can keep crimping in the groove, you wind up with a smaller volume. You can compensate for that by reducing the powder charge. But figuring out how much is complex. The good news is that Trail Boss is a very forgiving powder.

I have heard this rule of thumb: Take the amount of powder that would fill the case to the base of the bullet when seated to the depth you desire (at the crimp groove in this case). Then weigh that amount. Take 70% of that weight. That is you amount of Trail Boss you should use. This is what I have heard. Check Trail Boss's maker's web site for more reliable advice.

OR, you could try to find smokeless powder load data for the 45 Schofield cartridge. It is the same cartridge as the 45 Colt, but shorter. 1.100" vs 1.285". Other dimensions are close enough that the U.S. Army used the 45 Schofield in the 45 Colt revolvers regularly.

You can crimp into a lead bullet wherever you like. The crimping groove is best, but you can make your own groove. Be careful, though, crimping into hard lead, you can crumple the case, so it is not usually a good idea.

On the other hand, with Trail Boss, you don't really need a crimp; friction will do. You don't need that hard a crimp for a gentle-recoiling powder like TB.

Crimps are for two purposes. Keeping the bullet where it belongs (from being forced deeper into the case during handling and keeping it from being pulled pulled out of the case by recoil). The other thing crimping does is it HELPS friction hold the bullet in place at the time of firing. You need this with with heavy loads of slow burning powders. With those you need friction and crimp.

Good luck,

Lost Sheep

FROGO207
June 27, 2012, 08:23 AM
Yep Trail Boss can be used in the shorter cases. You should crimp in the crimp groove for best results IMHO. Lost Sheep has described how to find your Trail Boss starting load when using a cartridge that has no lead bullet data available for it. Just remember that you are NEVER to compress Trail Boss due to pressure spiking if you do. You could also email the manufacturer about safe loads also. As long as the pressure is safe and the cylinder will rotate with the round in it you are safe to shoot it. Think 38 SPL in a 357.

Yes If you hammer a round with Black Powder in it there is a possibility the powder will detonate causing you to be hurt. IIRC the manufacturers even caution you about dropping the cans of Black Powder due to it possibly going off. Also static electricity can play into the whole thing as that can also set it off.

kohana
June 27, 2012, 10:21 AM
Thanks for all the good info
Bob

joecil
June 27, 2012, 10:40 AM
This also might help http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Hammerdown77
June 27, 2012, 11:06 AM
The only reports I've EVER heard of where a black powder round ignited in a bullet puller was when someone was using a SHELL HOLDER in the bullet puller to hold the round. That is a BAD IDEA, because the shell holder can strike the primer. Those rounds went off not because of black powder "impact", but because the primer was struck. They would cause a smokeless round to ignite, too.

If you use a kinetic puller with a 3-segment collet that holds the case below the rim and has NOTHING to contact the back of the case where the primer is, you'll be fine.

Black powder is not going to go off just by hammering out a bullet in a bullet puller. If it were that sensitive, the other rounds in the cylinder would be at risk of exploding every time you fired a round. After all, your gun is a kinetic bullet puller, too.

joecil
June 27, 2012, 12:37 PM
I agree Hammerdown77 as I've done it a number of times with out a problem.

FROGO207
June 27, 2012, 08:14 PM
???? Why then if it is safe do the manufacturers caution you against doing it?? There is another thread on here about someone using the hammer type puller correctly and having a primer go off in it. While I have never had a primer go off for any reason while reloading in 40+ years I still use eye/hearing protection when reloading/shooting just to be safe. Reloading is all about being safe as a number one concern. I value my health and take many steps to preserve it.:scrutiny:

Uniquedot
June 27, 2012, 09:02 PM
Why then if it is safe do the manufacturers caution you against doing it?

Liability.

rcmodel
June 27, 2012, 09:14 PM
The thing is, if a smokeless powder load goes off in a hammer puller, you have some smoke and flame.

If a BP round does go off, you have a low grade explosion in your hand.

rc

Lost Sheep
June 27, 2012, 10:01 PM
???? Why then if it is safe do the manufacturers caution you against doing it?? There is another thread on here about someone using the hammer type puller correctly and having a primer go off in it. While I have never had a primer go off for any reason while reloading in 40+ years I still use eye/hearing protection when reloading/shooting just to be safe. Reloading is all about being safe as a number one concern. I value my health and take many steps to preserve it.:scrutiny:
I followed that thread and the consensus was that no one could figure out how it happened. The user testifies to doing everything right. Collet in the right direction, even hitting the kinetic pullet in the right direction (yes, someone asked - just to be sure). It remains a mystery. One of those things that cannot happen, yet did.

Lost Sheep

If you enjoyed reading about "New reloader with 45C question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!