7.62 Tokarev


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Blackfox893
June 27, 2012, 12:18 AM
How is the 7.62 Tokarev round when compared to other common pistol rounds? I liked the feel of it when I fired it, compared to 45ACP (too powerful) and the 9mm ( Okay, but I did not like the Hi Power I fired) It felt snappy, while retaining the characteristics of a lighter round I liked. I am worried, however, about using it for self defense, if I ever needed to. Would it be an OK defensive round?

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WardenWolf
June 27, 2012, 12:33 AM
Wolf makes some nice hollowpoints that expand very well (to .45) on impact. This makes it viable as a defensive round. I do not recommend FMJ's for self-defense, though. The Tokarev round is very high-velocity and FMJ tends to overpenetrate without expanding on a soft target. In fact, the FMJ rounds can even penetrate Level 2 body armor (while expanding to a very nasty .46), and is one of only a very few handgun rounds that can do so.

You should be fine using it for self-defense as long as you follow the manual of arms for your pistol and carry it safely. A Tokarev with a good trigger safety can be safely carried locked and cocked, despite what some people will say. The half-cock position on a Tokarev is strong enough to prevent discharge in the event that you strike the hammer hard enough to break the primary cocking notch. If you don't want to do that, you can still carry it with the hammer in the half-cock position.

jonnyc
June 27, 2012, 01:02 PM
Although I dearly love the 7.62 Tokarev round and the weapons chambered for it, but it is not really a viable defense round. You can do MUCH better with modern JHPs and the more modern and ergonomic pistols that go with them. I shoot the 7.62 round a lot, but only for fun.

WardenWolf
June 27, 2012, 01:15 PM
The Tokarev round will actually make a freaking mess. It's so high-velocity that you really do get hydrostatic shock.

cougar1717
June 27, 2012, 01:52 PM
compared to other common pistol rounds?

The 7.62x25 reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indiana picks up the Luger, fires it once, and the bullet goes through all 4 or 5 Nazi soldiers in a row.

It's an 85gr bullet at 1300+ fps. I would just make sure to get the Wolf hollowpoints to keep in it or Hornady makes a .309" XTP if you reload.

flyskater
June 27, 2012, 05:17 PM
I use my m57 as my office gun. I reload, so I'm not limited to on the shelf ammo.
100gr of Hornady XTP at just over 1500fps. That's just over 500 ft/lbs of energy. Expands to over half an inch, and the bullets hit with authority with a recoil that's less than my 9mm. I think the tokarev is an overlooked round because there is not much available ammo other than surplus/fmj out there.

nathan
June 27, 2012, 07:37 PM
SGAmmo has the WOlf brand JHP.

GBExpat
June 28, 2012, 07:25 AM
FWIW ...

I have several hundreds of S&B 86gr FMJ 7.62x25 that I acquired by ~2005.

Currently, for SD 7.62x25 ammunition, I simply pull & replace the bullets on some of those with Sierra .30cal 85gr soft-points that I have in my kit.

Going at 1300-1400fps, these Sierras expand very well.

brnmuenchow
June 28, 2012, 08:44 AM
It most certainly will kill someone and has a higher velocity as said in other posts. As for personal defense in situations where numerous people are in the vicinity I don’t use it, the 7.62x25mm will go through someone easily (Home defense, mine is loaded and ready to go.) just keep in mind that any bullet no matter how it is designed could possibly cause injury or death to innocent bystanders that are behind an assailant. (No bullet is designed with absolutes) I simply choose to use ammo like Hornady "Critical Defense" or Winchester "PDX1" for my peace of mind knowing I am making an attempt to do the best I can not to hurt anyone else if possible, but again there is no such thing as a guarantee.

Fiv3r
June 28, 2012, 09:43 AM
I used to carry a 7.62tok as a backpacking gun as I was not concerned about innocent people becoming a backstop. However, as cheap surplus has started to dry up, I just don't find it all that practical to shoot as modern ammo is fairly pricey and harder to find.

I think a Tokarev is an excellent gun, though. I have a 9mm Norinco that is my jeep pistol because I enjoy the feel of it and shoot it so well. I'll also admit that the 7.62 is no slouch in the energy department. However, for the flash and ear-splitting noise as well as the chance of OP, I wouldn't carry a gun chambered in 7.62 for defense on the street.
That's just me:)

PabloJ
June 28, 2012, 10:26 AM
I would look for Chinese made Navy Arms TU pistol chambered for 9x19 cartridge. Last one I have seen was like new with two magazines and price was only $239. Since it had standard Tokarev mag well and long ejection port one could always put 7.62 barrel in it if that is what was desired.

winfried
June 28, 2012, 11:15 AM
Hi I am looking for some education here. Are you people talking of a pistol chambered for the Tokarev Cartridge or for a Tokarev Mod TT-30 (wooden grips) or TT-33 (plastic grip with soviet star). Neither of the two pistols had any safety other than half-cock. So where does "cocked and locked" on such a pistol come in? And all Tokarevs I handled had a horrible trigger.

Regards

Winfried

PabloJ
June 28, 2012, 12:06 PM
Hi I am looking for some education here. Are you people talking of a pistol chambered for the Tokarev Cartridge or for a Tokarev Mod TT-30 (wooden grips) or TT-33 (plastic grip with soviet star). Neither of the two pistols had any safety other than half-cock. So where does "cocked and locked" on such a pistol come in? And all Tokarevs I handled had a horrible trigger.

Regards

Winfried
They're talking about TT pistols imported into US that have safety fitted. I had Chinese Model 213 9x19 that had safety which could be engaged when round was in chamber and hammer in ready to fire position (what americans call cocked and locked). The original TT military pistols were manual safety-less and designed to be carried with empty chamber.

GBExpat
June 28, 2012, 02:19 PM
And all Tokarevs I handled had a horrible trigger.

<nodding> All but two of my TT-33 and Variants (multiple Russian, Polish, Romanian and Yugoslavian) required some careful trigger/sear TLC before their trigger action was satisfactory.

brnmuenchow
June 28, 2012, 04:59 PM
So far I have never had a trigger problem.

SharpsDressedMan
June 28, 2012, 08:33 PM
Hornady makes a fine 85gr XTP bullet just for the Tokarev round, but not sure if they offer loaded ammo for it.

GBExpat
June 29, 2012, 08:42 PM
Hmmm ... SDM, so far I have only found mention of their 90gr XTP bullets. Any idea where I can source some of the 85s?

Thanks.

WardenWolf
June 29, 2012, 11:55 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. The Wolf hollowpoints have been tested to expand very well. The velocity of the round lends itself very well to hollowpoint expansion.

Clark
June 30, 2012, 02:21 PM
I have Tokarevs from at least 4 countries and shoot 9x19, 9x23, and 7.62x25mm through them.
I have the reamer.
I have the John Remling book on collecting Tokarevs..
I have produced a mountain of data on overloading Tokarevs.
I have scoped a Tokarev, put a sniper barrel on it, and shot groups at 100 yards.

That said, IMHO, self defense handgun cartridges should not be necked down. If it would feed, we would neck UP!
We don't need more sub shock wave velocity penetration, we need more hole area for bleeding.

The 45acp is a better handgun cartridge for self defense.
The 7.62x25mm is better for shooting prairie dogs at long range.

Hondo 60
June 30, 2012, 09:04 PM
As far as safeties & triggers go...

My Yugo Zastava M57 has a safety that was added when it was imported to the U.S.A.
And the trigger has a VERY hard pull.
I'm guessing it's up around 15-18 lbs or maybe even a bit more.

(how does lbs abbreviate pounds? :scrutiny: that makes no sense)

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 07:39 AM
The Tokarev, with hollowpoints, compares very favorably to the 9mm. Base round size isn't everything.

I dug this up from the THR archive:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=245469

Can we say exploded (you name the organ) anyone?

Compare this to:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376514

The Tokarev round did significantly MORE damage, and actually expanded better. Don't underestimate this round. The 7.62 Tokarev is a perfectly viable defensive round with proper ammo. It got optimum penetration without overpenetrating and left a massive wound channel.

SharpsDressedMan
July 1, 2012, 07:50 AM
You're probably right on the Hornady 90gr., I was just thinking 85gr. Haven't loaded them in awhile. I was close, though!

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 07:54 AM
Just pull the bullets on S&B 7.62x25 and reseat the Hornady bullets. The S&B is full-power; their FMJ's violate Level 2 Kevlar like it's not even there. They get similar results on armored targets as the hollowpoints do on unarmored ones.

Vhyrus
July 1, 2012, 08:02 AM
I wish the guns made to shoot tokarev were as potent as the rounds themselves. I own a cz 52 that jams around 10% of the time and feels like crap the other 90%. Its a scary powerful round, usually has too much overpenetration to be a good choice... although if someone is trying to hide behind a car or a brick wall I guess it would come in handy.

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 09:35 AM
An actual Tokarev will digest anything.

psyshack
July 1, 2012, 12:16 PM
My CZ-52 never jams. Has a very good trigger and will break clay's on a 100 yard berm off hand. Winchester Metric Ammo reloads very good.

jj1962hemi
July 1, 2012, 12:32 PM
http://gun-deals.com/displaydeal.php?dealid=10586


I have a TTC (Polish) that I really like and was thinking about this CZ-52, only because NIB is so uncommon. I had a CZ-70 I didn't like (.32 ACP), but it was built like a tank!

It seems that this cartridge is screaming for more JHP/type ammo. Like the357 SIG, I assume there are few FTF issues with a necked-down round.

PabloJ
July 1, 2012, 01:03 PM
........ will break clay's on a 100 yard berm off hand.

You must be a cyborg.

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 01:09 PM
the 7.62x25mm will go through someone easily

As someone else mentioned, high velocity expanding rounds expand better than lower velocity expanding rounds.

The basic round, with the right ammunition, is fine. The real problem is that there aren't good so-called "fighting handguns" for it. I'd carry a Glock 17 in 7.62x25mm very readily. :)

John

Robbins290
July 1, 2012, 01:58 PM
i would love to see a modern combat pistol in 7.62x25. its my round of choice. good woods round. i carry my cz52 hiking all the time

7.62 Nato
July 1, 2012, 02:18 PM
i would love to see a modern combat pistol in 7.62x25. its my round of choice. good woods round. i carry my cz52 hiking all the time
I would like to see that but really don't expect to see it happen. I'd LOVE a 7.62x25 Witness, or CZ. About the closest modern "equivelant" may be the .357 SIG round and it's available in many modern handguns. I think if it was offered in matching carbines it would really take off more.

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 02:23 PM
I really hoped the 9x23mm Winchester would be better received- especially when WWB could be had for the same price in x23 as x19mm! And the WWB JSP actually went fast enough to expand, too!

Anyway, when I get around to making my own firearms, I'll be sure to make a nice SBR or AOW in 7.62x25mm, with a 7-10" barrel. ;)

John

PabloJ
July 1, 2012, 02:24 PM
For 7,62x25 to take off it would have to be adopted by military & police establishments of high stature and gun gurus would have to make numerous good comments about the firearm in question. Without these ingredients the "dream" will not be realized. This kind of approach does not work on me because I do not care what military & police use and what gun writers put in print but it works on most gun buyers out there.

tahunua001
July 1, 2012, 04:11 PM
almost all tokarev you find nowadays is steel cased surplus with a little brass cased here and there. when I sold my AK I traded my brother all of my 7.62x39 for all of his 7.62x25 and bought single shot chamber adapters for an enfield and mosin nagant. they are a really fun plinking round and fairly accurate. however 100% of the tokarev ammo out there is ball ammo. even though it does have a decent velocity, an 85 grain FMJ bullet is not going to cause a lot of trauma that is necessary in a self defense round. if you are able to get your hands on some of the brass cased tok ammo out there then you may be able to find very light hunting bullets in the 80-100gr range that would make it a very effective self defense round if you are up to reloading. the main problem is finding the proper diameter ammo. every reloading manual I've looked at that has data for 30 tok has it listed anywhere from .308-.312 diameter bullets so you need to find the diameter of your barrel before you start looking for reloading components.

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 08:20 PM
*facepalm* Tahuna001, all of this has been addressed previously. Please read before posting.

The .311 / .312 diameter bullets will be more correct. All Russian-designed .30's are .311. However, the difference is so minor that you can shoot .308 diameter bullets through it with no measurable loss of accuracy. It doesn't matter. Put the best bullet in it you can find, and it will work.

GBExpat
July 1, 2012, 09:49 PM
In defense of "tahunua001"'s post. :)

I often do not take the time to read thru 30+ posts before posting a response ... I just post a response to the OP's initial inquiry and move along.

tahunua001
July 1, 2012, 10:58 PM
sorry, my main forum is down so I'm struggling through my ADHD hardcore today. sorry if I wasted peoples time... though in my defense...

I did TRY to add personal input :D

Clark
July 1, 2012, 11:21 PM
JShirley

I really hoped the 9x23mm Winchester would be better received- especially when WWB could be had for the same price in x23 as x19mm! And the WWB JSP actually went fast enough to expand, too!

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

a) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 7.62x25mm with long brass life is "10 gr Power Pistol, S&B brass [not Starline], 1.316", 110 gr HNDY FMJ"
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

b) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 9x19mm is " 11 gr Power Pistol, 158 gr XTP, 1.169". [Any brass will do]
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

c) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 9x23mm is 16 gr Power Pistol, 158 gr XTP, 1.35", Win 9x23mm brass" [Not Starline]
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

What does it all mean?
Way more power can be had from the 9x19mm than can be dealt with given the slide mass, the recoil spring force, and the distance of slide movement with respect to the frame. [even though ~ half the momentum goes into moving the shooter's hand]
So there can be no real practical gains from switching to 9x23mm.
Maybe gains showing off over a chronograph.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15111&d=1089827190
Here is a Tokarev that I has a 308 Parker Hale sniper barrel that I welded a Tokarev link and chambered with 7.62x25mm.
It can show off over a chrono or show off with 100 yard groups.
But it is not practical.

JShirley
July 3, 2012, 03:27 AM
Clark, I'm really not sure what your point is. I don't see 7.62x25mm loads that are in the 124 grain @ 1500 fps with controllable recoil area that was the 9x23mm Winchester's strong suit. Posting your dangerous handloads proves nothing other than I want to be at least several lanes away if we're both shooting.

So there can be no real practical gains from switching to 9x23mm Okay, fine. Tell all the .357 Magnum owners out there that they're idiots, and their caliber serves no purpose. :rolleyes:...since the 9x23mm is almost identical in performance to one of the most popular .357 loads (125-grain .35" JHP at 1500 fps). The 9x23mm Winchester allowed shooters to "make major" in a cartridge designed to handle the pressure levels with less recoil than other Major power factor cartridges. Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't mean others don't.



John

Clark
July 3, 2012, 10:29 AM
JShirley

Clark, I'm really not sure what your point is.


Recoil.

I can make the majors with my 380.
158 gr 1187 fps. I have been posting that load and that test datum on THR for the better part of a decade.
But the recoil is brutal.

I have the 9x23mm reamer and a number of 9x23mm pistols. There is nothing practical it can do that my 9x19mm cannot.

Just like why the 45 Win Mag has nothing over the hand loaded 45acp.
Unless one is shooting a massive desert Eagle with monster springs, the 45acp can be loaded to more than the slide mass and recoil spring can control.
Remainder recoil energy goes into the slide slamming into the frame.
That is not good for the pistol nor my hand.


Again, recoil.

My father sold a math derivation of parabolic piston taper in a hydraulic cylinder for constant force during recoil to Rock Island Arsenal. Basically what he used on the M55, M110, M107, and XM-70 designs.
He used to ask me when I was going to put a hydraulic cylinder in a hand gun.
I have not so far done that.
I have put 48 pound triple recoil springs in a Glock 19. That makes the slide move so fast that I need double mag springs and a NY trigger to keep up. That is still not half as much recoil spring as hot 9mm needs.

JShirley
July 3, 2012, 12:12 PM
Won't a 9x19mm loaded to 9x23mm ballistics have both more recoil and more pressure?

Clark
July 3, 2012, 12:31 PM
Less recoil, more pressure.

The problem is that recoil usually is the limit before pressure it the limit.

C26000 brass (cartridge brass) Temper - H06 Tensile yield strength - 65,300 psi
Made in different cartridge shapes, that limits chamber pressure to something less than 85,000 psi.
The 9mm case head with a .190" feed ramp intrusion cannot do 85kpsi, but can do the better part of it.

GBExpat
July 3, 2012, 01:11 PM
You're probably right on the Hornady 90gr., I was just thinking 85gr. Haven't loaded them in awhile. I was close, though!
SDM, your memory is vindicated ... I located some 86gr .308 Hornady XTPs at Natchez.

While their price is good ($14.19/100, IIRC) I am hesitating to buy any because of their shipping rate that starts at over $17.00 for UPS Ground.

firesky101
July 3, 2012, 05:48 PM
BTW Clark,
What recoil springs do you use in your 9x23 Tokarev. I have been meaning to ask, as you are the reason I built my 9x23 Tok. I do not push the handloads though. Standard power 9x23 is enough for me, but I get a lot of slide hitting the stops.

Clark
July 3, 2012, 06:49 PM
I mostly use the stock Tokarev Springs. If I have one Wolff spring, it is the same anyway.

I have one Tokarev slide with extreme mods for twin external guide rods, but that is not ready for prime time.

Jaymo
July 3, 2012, 07:09 PM
Take a .327 Federal, and jack the velocity up to 1500-1700 fps (depending on ammo and Bbl length), and you have a 7.62x25 Tokarev.
Kinda loud, but a pussycat to shoot.

Hondo60, IIRC, Lbs came to signify pounds due to the roman Libra.
But, I could be wrong.

bubba15301
July 3, 2012, 11:26 PM
chronograghed surplusammo thru a cz52 -85 grain bullet -1600 fps-

Jaymo
July 4, 2012, 02:42 PM
.30 carbine-light.

Blackfox893
July 5, 2012, 01:57 AM
For me it is currently between 9x18 Makarov and 7.62 Tokarev, but because i have seen a tokarev mangle a piece of ballistic gel I really, really have fallen in love with it. I see the loud blast of the gun as useful as it will attract attention in case I miss, and get a better chance of someone seeing the thug who tried to pilfer from me. Overpenetration is less of a concern to me as I would be using expanding bullets.

WardenWolf
July 5, 2012, 02:52 AM
You can get a bushing compensator for the Tokarev which reduces muzzle flip, but in my opinion it doesn't matter because the Tokarev's recoil is perfectly matched with its grip angle. The gun settles right back on target after a shot. One thing to remember about a Tokarev is its size. It is effectively identical in size to a Combat Commander. It's not the easiest thing to conceal, though any good 1911 holster will fit it just fine. Adding the bushing compensator brings its length up to a bit longer than a 1911 Government.

I own 3 9x18 guns as well, and carry my P-64. The 9x18 round is okay, but it's no Tokarev. It'll do the job, though a more powerful round is always better.

batjka
July 5, 2012, 02:40 PM
Clark,

What velocities are you getting from that long-barreled Tokarev? And what is the barrel length?
I'm surprised there's enough recoil to move that huge barrel you've installed, but I guess there is.
Thanks in advance.

WardenWolf
July 5, 2012, 02:48 PM
The Tokarev round doesn't benefit from very long barrels. Beyond something like 8 inches it doesn't gain any more velocity, as I recall. Though it may be a bit longer.

Clark
July 7, 2012, 06:12 PM
batjka Clark,

What velocities are you getting from that long-barreled Tokarev? And what is the barrel length?
I'm surprised there's enough recoil to move that huge barrel you've installed, but I guess there is.
Thanks in advance.

I built it.
I took it to the range on 2-10-2006.
I shot it single shot with S&B factory ammo.
I sighted in and shot at a target, but did not chronograph:

1.2" 3 shot group at 100 yards

Any wind is too much for that gun at 100 yards.

Do you think it deserves another trip to the range?

batjka
July 8, 2012, 11:47 AM
I think it definitely deserves another trip to the range. I'm really curious about the velocities. Let's see them!

Snowdog
July 9, 2012, 10:56 AM
Currently, for SD 7.62x25 ammunition, I simply pull & replace the bullets on some of those with Sierra .30cal 85gr soft-points that I have in my kit.

Same here.

I posted my experiences using Sierra Sports Master JSPs (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=546747&highlight=7.62x25) and had excellent results!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5038308966_a6f3398df0_z.jpg

GBExpat
July 11, 2012, 12:47 PM
SDM, your memory is vindicated ... I located some 86gr .308 Hornady XTPs at Natchez.

While their price is good ($14.19/100, IIRC) I am hesitating to buy any because of their shipping rate that starts at over $17.00 for UPS Ground.
Update on my Natchez shipping cost Issue:

At the suggestion of their Customer Service Folks, I placed the order via their 800 number and opted for a new (for them) shipping option involving DHL & USPS (medium Priority Mail box).

This new option will cut the shipping cost in half, from almost $20 to ~$10.

I was warned that this new option may take a week or more (OK, since I am proud to NOT be a member of the Instant Gratification Society). They are still gathering data to use for delivery estimates. I offered to email them regarding how long my order takes, an offer that was happily accepted.

FYI ...

WardenWolf
July 12, 2012, 12:18 PM
Good luck. In my experience, DHL stands for Damaged, Holed, Late. All packages I've ever gotten from them were beaten to hell and / or had fist-sized holes in them. They also took 9 days to get a package from Salt Lake City, Utah, to Phoenix, Arizona.

GBExpat
July 12, 2012, 04:20 PM
IIRC, some of the items that I buy from NewEgg come to me via the same DHL/USPS setup. It is not very fast but I have never had a problem with any of the shipments being mangled.

<fingers crossed!>

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