High end rifle scopes?!


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Jasper1573
June 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
I recently purchased a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm scope. Great scope...near perfect tracking around a 20MOA box, clear glass, etc.; except, after zeroing the scope at 100 yards I found I only had about 25 MOA upward elevation adjustment with a 20 MOA base...and that won't get me out to 1000 yards with a .308 Win without combining scope adjustment and mildots...a complex mental calculation when taking windage into account as well. So, I unfortunately had to return the scope.

Now that I have had a $1000 scope in my hand and on my rifle, I have been window shopping around on the internet.

Dang...Swarovski doesn't offer a mildot reticle that I could find; Schmidt and Bender requires a year's worth of saving money to buy one, and it still may not be the exact scope you want; Zeiss makes great scopes with many options, but the cost is equal to the Schmidt and Bender, so no grace there. Then there's Nightforce, US Optics, etc.

What's a fellow to do?

If I were to design my own scope, it would have a 50mm objective, side focus would be nice but not a show stopper, 30mm tube for improved E/W adjustment , at least 40 MOA up and down (80 MOA range) with 20 MOA left and right (40 MOA range), near perfect (1 MOA) tracking around a 40 MOA box so you know it would be repeatable from 100 yds out to 1000 yds and back down to 100 yds; an enhanced mildot-style reticle similar to the HORUS, but not quite that detailed; 4-30x; waterproof, fogproof, shockproof.

Is there anything that I am forgetting? Oh yes, less than $2000 with an unconditional lifetime guarantee.

Is that asking too much? All of these features can be found in a multitude of scopes; however, you would have to combine 4 or 5 different brands to get them all in one scope, but the cost would still be an issue.

Thoughts?

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floorit76
June 28, 2012, 10:18 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=665602

Jasper1573
June 28, 2012, 10:56 PM
Why be ye selling such a fine piece of glass?

http://www.eurooptic.com/nightforce-nxs-55-22x50-np-r1-c197.aspx

taliv
June 28, 2012, 11:19 PM
since you put this in the competition thread, what kind of competition are you shooting with it?

Jasper1573
June 28, 2012, 11:26 PM
F-Class and modified F-Class from 300 to 1000 yards. Hoping to invest in a good piece of glass that is somewhat reasonable in price and will last.

Paraphrasing Todd Hoddnett...You can have five scopes worth $2000 or one good scope worth $2000. He said something to that effect on the Magpul videos entitled, "Art of the Precision Rifle."

taliv
June 28, 2012, 11:42 PM
for f-class, i'd recommend a nightforce benchrest model. 12-42x56. you don't need mil-dot reticle. you don't need illumination. you don't need FFP. you don't need side parallax.

you just need good, clear glass, and target turrets that track.

you can get them for $1200ish

(edit: and i'd recommend making sure "art of the precision rifle" isn't your only source of info for precision rifle. fwiw, imho after price increases this year, "high end" starts in the low $3000s. NF is definitely quality kit though)

Jasper1573
June 28, 2012, 11:50 PM
you don't need mil-dot reticle. you don't need illumination. you don't need FFP. you don't need side parallax.

Yes, I agree mostly...I don't care for an illuminated reticle as it is rarely used even with hunting, and the FFP isn't required either. With their MOAR reticle and other similar reticles such as the HORUS, it is magnified too much at higher powers and much of the reticle appears to be outside the FOV.

However, I do like a mildot or mildot style reticle for windage adjustments without having to crank it in every time the air changes direction and speed...side parallax is a nice feature, but I agree it isn't necessary.

Thanks for the advice...I am looking at the NF scopes available on the web, but haven't seen any at that low a price...I will look a bit harder. $1200 is a lot more palatable than $1800.

Thanks.

taliv
June 28, 2012, 11:56 PM
just did a google search.

first hit http://www.allnightforce.com/category_s/1.htm
second hit http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-12-42x56-benchrest-riflescopes.html

ok, so they're $1400 now :) prices went up since i bought mine.

YankeeFlyr
June 29, 2012, 12:03 AM
Could you not have mounted it with the optical axis slightly 'off' (in elevation); in other words, mounted with a pre-elevated angle?

I've heard of it for really long range shooting. Never seen it, though.

Not available in a compatible mount?

Jasper1573
June 29, 2012, 12:04 AM
Yep, opticsplanet is one of the first places I go to see what's available...thanks for the links...I will investigate.

Jasper1573
June 29, 2012, 12:11 AM
Could you not have mounted it with the optical axis slightly 'off' (in elevation); in other words, mounted with a pre-elevated angle?


If I understand what you are saying, you mean to shim the scope to achieve more adjustment?

I thought about this, but I didn't want to shim or adjust a scope to make it do more than it is truly designed to do. Nightforce makes a 40 MOA base that would have compensated for the lack of elevation adjustment, but that was another $120 or so, and I just don't want to be adding to the cost of the scope to make it meet my needs, but would rather have a scope that comes out of the box satisfying my requirements.

dprice3844444
June 29, 2012, 12:34 AM
optics planet is a member,check the lower section of the main page for discounts
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=661579

YankeeFlyr
June 29, 2012, 01:32 AM
Yeah, like that...a pre-elevated mount.

atblis
June 29, 2012, 07:51 AM
How about <$1k? For the money, I don't think the Sightron SIII can be beat. Doesn't exactly match your requirements, but the 8-32x56 is a great scope.

http://www.sightron.com/index.php?action=view_document&did=1201816362&cat_id=6&id=170

pcf
June 29, 2012, 09:04 AM
Something was not right on your rifle and/or scope. From what I found on the internet the 6.5x20 conquest has 45 MOA of adjustment. Without the 20 MOA base you would have just about run out of elevation on you scope to zero. In theory you should have had closer to 40 MOA of upward elevation with a 20 MOA base.

Do you have the same problem with other scopes on the rifle with the same bases and rings?

If it's not the scope a +40 MOA scope base will probably be cheaper fix than buying a scope with a greater adjustment range or a trip to rifle smith.

SlamFire1
June 29, 2012, 09:42 AM
I recently purchased a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm scope. Great scope...near perfect tracking around a 20MOA box, clear glass, etc.; except, after zeroing the scope at 100 yards I found I only had about 25 MOA upward elevation adjustment with a 20 MOA base...

I agree with the previous poster, something does not add up.

If you put a true 20 MOA base on your rifle you should be able to be on center at 100 yards.

I have a 6 X luepold on my Ruger 308, I could not get on target with standard mounts, but I was able with 20 MOA mounts. A 6X scope is not the best, or even a good solution for F class, but it was something I had and shot it a couple of times at long range.

Jim Watson
June 29, 2012, 01:09 PM
A March X series would do what you want... but not for $2000.

I'd get the Nightforce BR and put it on a 20 MOA base which can be had from EGW or Weaver for a lot less than $140.

The BR 8-32X is $1286 at Optics Planet. That is plenty of magnification for me, a fixed 36X was really more than I could handle even off a bench.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-benchrest-riflescopes.html

2000Yards
June 29, 2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
I recently purchased a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm scope. Great scope...near perfect tracking around a 20MOA box, clear glass, etc.; except, after zeroing the scope at 100 yards I found I only had about 25 MOA upward elevation adjustment with a 20 MOA base...

I agree with the previous poster, something does not add up.

If you put a true 20 MOA base on your rifle you should be able to be on center at 100 yards.

I have a 6 X luepold on my Ruger 308, I could not get on target with standard mounts, but I was able with 20 MOA mounts. A 6X scope is not the best, or even a good solution for F class, but it was something I had and shot it a couple of times at long range.


Ditto - something is wrong. The scope should give you about 22MOA travel up and down (eh, I have to ask: you're using it for long range, why get a scope with such limited (45MOA) elevation adjustment? I've seen this in a lot of Zeiss scopes and it shouts to me "For use under 700 yards ONLY.") - OK back to 22MOA elevation travel, each direction - so with a 20MOA base that's about 42 MOA ... almost 1000 yards with 168 grain .308 BTHP rounds.

Sometimes the reticle center is badly mis-aligned with the central line of the scope, which would give you far more elevation travel in one direction than in another, relative to the scopes center-line.

Anyway, is there a reason you aren't considering a Leupold Mark IV?

2KYDS

Jasper1573
June 29, 2012, 05:52 PM
How about <$1k? For the money, I don't think the Sightron SIII can be beat. Doesn't exactly match your requirements, but the 8-32x56 is a great scope.

Something was not right on your rifle and/or scope. From what I found on the internet the 6.5x20 conquest has 45 MOA of adjustment. Without the 20 MOA base you would have just about run out of elevation on you scope to zero. In theory you should have had closer to 40 MOA of upward elevation with a 20 MOA base.

Do you have the same problem with other scopes on the rifle with the same bases and rings?

I agree with the previous poster, something does not add up.

If you put a true 20 MOA base on your rifle you should be able to be on center at 100 yards.

Reference the 1st quote above, I have a Sightron SIII fixed 20x42mm...great scope, but after shooting it in a recent match from 100 yards out to 1000 yards, I noted that the tracking MAY have been off by as much as a minute of angle when I returned to my original zero setting, so I am investigating other higher quality scopes; but, I agree, Sightron is a good bang for the buck.

Reference the 2nd and 3rd quotes above, I agree, something just didn't make sense to me about this whole thing either. I have a Larue 20 MOA picatinny rail on my Rem 700 in 308 Win and have had no problems like this before. I have used several scopes on that rail to include Bushnell, Sightron, and Nikon with no problems at all.

According to the instruction booklet that came with the Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm,
it says...
Special requirements should be met when sighting in the Conquest
6.5 – 20 x 50 MC riflescope. To be able to use the full range of the elevation adjustment, the riflescope should be mounted on the rifle at an angle of approx. 20 angular minutes with commercially available mounting systems (corresponds to
21 inch/100 yards or 58.4 cm/100 m)..

Conquest 6.5 – 20x50 MC:
Elevation adjustment = 45 inches /100 yards = 175 clicks
Windage adjustment = 30 inches /100 yards = 120 clicks

I thought that with a zero MOA base, I would have about 22 MOA of upwards adjustment and then about 42 minutes of upwards adjustment with the 20 MOA base. Apparently, the scope requires a 20 MOA base to have the advertised elevation range...which is really strange, but that note is in bold in the instruction manual. Other than the instruction manual, I haven't found that information anywhere else on the internet where the Conquest scope is being sold. If anyone has a different interpretation of the words in bold above, please post. I did contact Zeiss, and the tech rep confirmed the meaning of the notes above. Also, there was no problem zeroing the scope at 100 yards, it was beyond 500 yards that would have been the issue.

Jasper1573
June 29, 2012, 06:06 PM
Anyway, is there a reason you aren't considering a Leupold Mark IV?

Nope, I have looked at a Leupold in various flavors, just haven't seen one that bit me real hard.

Problem is, there are too many really good scopes out there with too many really good options.

If I could find a scope that meets my original description in post 1 of this thread, I would likely drop the cash right now...then again, it's difficult to be sure of all the options without mounting and shooting the scope...and then they won't take it back if it doesn't meet your requirements and expectations.

I will investigate the Leupold more closely...any particular suggestion(s) on which model will most closely meet my requirements?

pcf
June 29, 2012, 09:41 PM
.......

pcf
June 29, 2012, 09:44 PM
I thought that with a zero MOA base, I would have about 22 MOA of upwards adjustment and then about 42 minutes of upwards adjustment with the 20 MOA base. Apparently, the scope requires a 20 MOA base to have the advertised elevation range...which is really strange, but that note is in bold in the instruction manual. Other than the instruction manual, I haven't found that information anywhere else on the internet where the Conquest scope is being sold. If anyone has a different interpretation of the words in bold above, please post. I did contact Zeiss, and the tech rep confirmed the meaning of the notes above. Also, there was no problem zeroing the scope at 100 yards, it was beyond 500 yards that would have been the issue.

You have it right. By full range of adjustment they mean they mean taking advantage of all possible upwards elevation. With a +20 MOA base you should be nearly bottomed out on elevation when zero'd at 100-200 yards, meaning you have the full range of elevation available to use when shooting at longer distances. You should have had somewhere around 40 MOA of positive elevation.

2000Yards
June 30, 2012, 01:47 AM
If I were to design my own scope, it would have a 50mm objective, side focus would be nice but not a show stopper, 30mm tube for improved E/W adjustment , at least 40 MOA up and down (80 MOA range) with 20 MOA left and right (40 MOA range), near perfect (1 MOA) tracking around a 40 MOA box so you know it would be repeatable from 100 yds out to 1000 yds and back down to 100 yds; an enhanced mildot-style reticle similar to the HORUS, but not quite that detailed; 4-30x; waterproof, fogproof, shockproof.

It doesn't meet all of your requirements, but take a look at:

Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm Extended Range/Tactical (ER/T) M5 riflescope (34mm locking version). This scope features First Focal Plane (FFP) Horus ranging reticles (H27 or H58), side parallax adjustment, and a beefy 34mm maintube.

I have a Mark 4 M2 scope and absolutely love it.

taliv
June 30, 2012, 04:43 PM
2000yrds, he's shooting f-class. why would he want a tactical style scope with FFP, ranging reticles and locking turrets? yeah, i want all that stuff shooting tactical matches, but i don't want any of it on my scope shooting f-class.


if you want a 4-30x, i believe bushnell is coming out with an HDMR in a month or so that is exactly that. and 50mm. however, i expect it to have locking turrets.

quartermaster
June 30, 2012, 09:47 PM
I would agree with atblis. I have 2 of them. They are a great value.

Jasper1573
June 30, 2012, 11:10 PM
I have a friend/fellow shooter who has a Sightron SIII in the 10-50x60mm model and he absolutely loves it. Can't remember what he paid for it, but it was around a $1000 plus or minus.

Truthfully, I am not convinced that I need a scope with that much power, but 32x or 42x is in that mid-range between the 20x I have and the 50x that my friend has.

Still studying on it and will eventually make a purchase. I really like the NF MOAR reticle...relatively simple with a lot of internal adjustment as well. Nope, it's not strictly a target scope, but if I am spending that much on a scope, I don't want it to be a uni-tasker...should be able to hunt with it as well. Unfortunately, there isn't one scope that does everything...suppose that why the mfrs. make so many;0)

BillB204
July 2, 2012, 12:26 PM
I thought about this (elevated mounts), but I didn't want to shim or adjust a scope to make it do more than it is truly designed to do.

Most if not all scopes are going to have the reticles close to center of the tube with approximately equal up and down elevation available. The lowest elevation you would likely need would be zeroed at about 200 yards. Assuming an 80 MOA range, the lower 30-35 MOA is wasted. To get the most out of virtually any scope at long range, the best option - and the one used most often - is elevated scope mounts. That way you have most of your elevation adjustment capability going up - and likely no problem at all zeroing to and past 1000 yards. You're not making it do anything it wasn't designed to do.

2000Yards
July 3, 2012, 03:16 AM
2000yrds, he's shooting f-class. why would he want a tactical style scope with FFP, ranging reticles and locking turrets? yeah, i want all that stuff shooting tactical matches, but i don't want any of it on my scope shooting f-class.

Well, you've got me on the FFP and reticle (though the OP did say he wants a Horus reticle). I'd take the locking turrets regardless, but that's just me.

Given the OP's list, what scope would you recommend for f-class (nevermind the Q if you already made a recommendation)? - Ah, gotcha, the Nightforce.

2KYDS

BullfrogKen
July 3, 2012, 11:25 AM
If you want the added flexibility of a reticle suitable for hunting, expect that you are going to pay more for it.

If you stick to something that you'll just use for F-class, you can do fine without a mil-dot reticle if you need to make slight adjustments for wind.

You already know the sizes of the scoring rings. If you want to favor a bit more or less for a change in wind conditions without adjusting your windage, hold that much more or less into the bull.

Tempest 455
July 9, 2012, 07:05 PM
Might consider a Millet LRS. I'm not suggesting it's a NF but they have 140 MOA of internal travel. I've shot mine to 800 yards and it's crystal clear.

Jasper1573
July 10, 2012, 10:56 PM
Purchased a NF 8-32x56 this past weekend...to be delivered on Thursday. It will meet my needs well and last a long time, I hope.

Thanks for all the inputs and advice...they always help to steer me in a better direction.

One_Jackal
July 11, 2012, 03:19 AM
Most rifle competitions spec the equipment you can use. That way it's not a match of the best equipment but the best shooter. They also spec equipment to control cost to shoot.

redneck2
July 11, 2012, 05:48 AM
I know you've already bought the scope, but if you want the 20 moa bases, I've used Burris rings with the floating inserts. You can get them in 0, .010, and .020 (and maybe others) offset.

Nice thing is, they don't leave any marks on the scope. Pull it off and it still looks new. Easy to change if your needs change.

HTH

Hoser
July 11, 2012, 10:32 AM
Most rifle competitions spec the equipment you can use. That way it's not a match of the best equipment but the best shooter. They also spec equipment to control cost to shoot.

Luckily all the matches I shoot dont have any silly rules like that.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 03:54 PM
Most rifle competitions spec the equipment you can use. That way it's not a match of the best equipment but the best shooter. They also spec equipment to control cost to shoot.

Not really. Not any rifle/any sight. Or F-class.


The specify the characteristics of legal competition rifles for that class.

Now the Service Rifle Division permits very little in modifications.

But others, the sky's the limit. When you I $5,000 Tubb 2000 rifles out on the line, you cannot convince me the equipment race doesn't exist in rifle competition.


Outside the Service Rifle division show me where the equipment is spec'd.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 04:19 PM
FYI Jackal - NRA High Power Rifle Rules

3.2 Any Rifle - A rifle with no restrictions on sights or accessories including Schuetzen type buttplates and palm rests except that it must be safe to competitors and range personnel. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition.). The provisions or Rule 3.16.1 apply to this definition.
(a) See Rule 3.4 and 3.14.
(b) Any rifle not meeting eligibility requirements of 3.1, .3.3, 3.3.1 or 3.3.2 is considered to be an Any Rifle.

3.3 NRA Match Rifle - A center fire rifle with metallic sights and a magazine capable of holding not less than 5 rounds.
(a) See Rule 3.14, Palm Rest.
(b) A service rifle may be used as a match rifle unless otherwise stated in the program. Any service rifle used as an NRA Match Rifle shall conform to Rule 3.1 as applies to trigger pull.
(c) Semi-Automatic rifle. M-16 or commercially equivalent rifles, configured or customized as NRA Match Rifles are exempt from the 4 1/2 pound trigger weight requirement.
(d) Any semi-automatic rifle that has an original factory design receiver/frame in excess of 3 1/4 inches below the center line of the bore may be used as an NRA Match Rifle.
(e) Other Nations - A center fire rifle with metallic sights. This rifle must meet the requirements to be a legal target rifle in the participant’s home country, and may only be used by someone who is a foreign national, and can provide evidence thereof. (It would be wise for a foreign competitor to have a copy of his own country’s rifle rule, or letter of certification from his National Association with him when competing under this rule.)

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle –
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b) Any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.

3.3.2 NRA Any Sight Match Rifle/Tactical Rifle – Same as NRA Match Rifle Rule 3.3 except there is no restriction as to sights. The following restrictions will apply:
(a) No person firing an any sight rifle under 3.3.2 will be allowed to compete with any other group of shooters who are also firing. A competitor using any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.2 will only be eligible for awards in their own division.
(b) Bipods may be attached but not utilized. Ammunition will be restricted to no larger than .35 caliber.

3.7 Sights
(a) Metallic -
(2) Corrective Rear Sight -Any sighting system constructed of metal or equivalent which provides a method of aiming or aligning two (2) separate but visible sights or reference points, mounted on the rifle including tube sights and non-magnifying filters except that a lens or system of lenses, not containing an aiming reference or reticle at the focal plane or any side lens or system of lenses may be included in such system. A corrective lens may be placed inside the rear sight hood on service rifle conforming to Rule 3.1. No part of the lens or method of installing the lens may protrude outside the rear sight hood.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 04:24 PM
F-Class rules -

3.4 F-Class Rifle -
(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-0) - A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition), “Rail guns” and positive mechanical methods of returning to the precise point of aim for the prior shot are not permitted. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.

The provisions of Rules 3.16 and 3.16.1 apply to this definition.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as sights and bipod, must not exceed 10 kilograms (approximately 22 pounds). An “attachment” also includes any external object, other that the competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the firing of the rifle from the rests).
(2) The width of the rifle’s forend shall not exceed 76mm (approximately 3 inches).
(3) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle rests as defined in Rule 3.4.1(a).

(b) F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR) - A rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge cases. The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.

The provisions of Rules 3.16 and 3.16.1 apply to this definition.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as sights, sling and bipod, must not exceed 8.25 kilograms (approximately 18.18 pounds. An “attachment” also includes any external object, other than the competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the lifting of the rifle from its rest/firing point.
(2) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle as defined in 3.4.1(b).



As you can see, some of those categories are pretty wide open, and you can spend as much as you want.

Mauser lover
July 11, 2012, 06:39 PM
Wow, I just stumbled onto this competition section of THR, and the first thing that I see is

32x or 42x is in that mid-range

I thought 16x was high power for a scope :D ...

I am not a competition shooter though, I guess I thought that I didn't need a super high power scope... Guess I do now! :D

Jim Watson
July 11, 2012, 06:58 PM
Now the Service Rifle Division permits very little in modifications.

There are some modifications allowed and the competitors push them as far as they can.
Without reading the Compass Lake Engineering or White Oak catalog I can think of:
High grade barrel as large diameter as the gas tube will accomodate under the handguards, standard profile only where exposed.
Free float tube under handguards.
Wider front sight blade.
Rear sight rebuilt for finer adjustments and no play.
Trigger smooth and crisp at minimum pull.
Weights in foreend and butt trap.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 08:12 PM
Jim, you have to admit, compared to the other rifle divisions, Service Rifle modifications are quite limited.

We're not talking about rack grade restrictions, but they're still pretty limited.

Jasper1573
July 11, 2012, 09:26 PM
i have to concur that F-Class has few restrictions on the rifle set up, weight being the primary restriction. Service rifle, however, is much more specific...type of rifle, limit on trigger pull in lbs, and so on.

All are good competitive venues, and $$$ spent on equipment does help in F-Class. I have a friend who has put together a nice F-Class rifle in 308 Win on a Savage action, and he has a Sightron 10-50x60mm scope on top of it...at 1000 yards he can clearly read two inch high mailbox letters that identify his target position, so there is value in the money spent.

Then again, I shoot for the enjoyment of it, not just to win. Winning a match once in a while is nice, but good competitive shooting with others makes me a better marksman.

Jim Watson
July 11, 2012, 10:47 PM
Oh, I agree that Service Rifle modifications are limited relative to other divisions, but there is still a lot of stuff going on in there.

Gotta admire George Farr, toughed it out at Wimbledon with a rifle and ammunition issued on the firing line.

BullfrogKen
July 11, 2012, 11:36 PM
No kidding. What a tale, huh?

Sheepdog1968
July 12, 2012, 12:04 AM
A few months a friend and I were shooting 300 yards. Three weren't many on the range that day so there was plenty of time to talk to those who shot the long distance competitions out to 1000 yards. Leupold was mentioned favorably.

MtnCreek
July 12, 2012, 12:44 PM
Wider front sight blade.

Is this useful for holding wind? Does making the front sight wider make it easier to spot the sight because of the large, black target? I guess you can tell I know nothing about Highpower because this just doesn’t make sense to me.

Thanks.

taliv
July 12, 2012, 01:31 PM
wider front sight is for people over 40 whose eyes have difficulty focusing up close on tiny objects. sharp focus on front sight is critical, so if you have to widen it to see it, it's worth it. you just have to be good at centering the fuzzy bullseye over a wider post

BullfrogKen
July 12, 2012, 01:32 PM
The biggest benefit is it reduces eye strain.

Finding - and focusing intently -on the top, dead center of a wider front sight post is easier then trying to focus intently on the top, dead center of a thin front sight post. The eye muscles actually become fatigued trying to fous that hard on something at roughly arm's length. Now that I'm older I find it affects me the most during the 20 minute slow fire string at 600.

Howard Roark
July 12, 2012, 08:47 PM
The eye muscles actually become fatigued trying to focus that hard on something at roughly arm's length.

The Microsight eliminates this problem. It puts the front post and target in the same focal plane using it's zone plate technology.

You can actually see machining marks in the front post while also seeing a very clear bullseye at all yardages. You have to use your normal perscription glasses if you have them in conjunction with the sight.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 12:35 AM
Received the NF NXS 8-32x56mm scope today. I have a Larue 20 MOA base and Larue rings on my rifle, so I went ahead and mounted the scope today to zero at 100 yards. No issue with objective bell clearing the barrel.

Zeroed the rifle at 100 yards and took it around a box pattern 30 MOA in elev and 10 MOA windage. Tracking was very good.

So here is my question...the NF elevation range is 65 MOA...about 32 MOA up and 32 MOA down. So after I zeroed the rifle at 100 yards, I checked to see how much upward elevation I had remaining on the scope. To my surprise, I only had about 32 MOA of upward elevation remaining. Now, with a 20 MOA rail, shouldn't I have more upward elevation adjustment than that? The scope at a 100 yard zero is in the middle of its elevation adjustment range...I am under the impression that the 20 MOA rail should add 20 MOA to the 30ish MOA scope elevation upward adjstment and give me around 50 MOA.

Can anyone clarify?

atblis
July 13, 2012, 08:19 AM
It is possible the barrel and/or receiver are not true.

BullfrogKen
July 13, 2012, 08:42 AM
Yup, those are my thoughts, too.


Something about your rifle is giving you some negative elevation. Try doubling up on that 20 MOA base with a set of Burris rings and the inserts.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
It is possible the barrel and/or receiver are not true.

I don't believe this to be the case because there has never been an issue before, but

Something about your rifle is giving you some negative elevation.

there is something going on that I can't quite figure out. The range of the scope is as advertised, and it is mounted properly. I am a mere 5 or 6 minutes of angle short of the adjustment range that I need. I will ponder this further.

Any helpful thoughts are appreciated at to what could be the cause.

Cheers,

Jasper

atblis
July 13, 2012, 09:11 AM
I recently purchased a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm scope. Great scope...near perfect tracking around a 20MOA box, clear glass, etc.; except, after zeroing the scope at 100 yards I found I only had about 25 MOA upward elevation adjustment with a 20 MOA base...and that won't get me out to 1000 yards with a .308 Win without combining scope adjustment and mildots...a complex mental calculation when taking windage into account as well. So, I unfortunately had to return the scope.

This wasn't a similar issue?

CharlieDeltaJuliet
July 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
I am shooting past 1200 with the new Bushnell Tactical Elite, it has 90 MOA on it though. It is mounted on a 50 bmg with a 20 MOA cant. rail on it. When ordering I almost made the mistake of ordering the 6500 (40moa) but that was my own fault. I think Bushnell might have even upped the adjustment on the newer one though. I paid around the same as you though.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 10:32 AM
atblis,
Yes, that was a similar issue; however, there was a bold type note in the Zeiss Conquest owners manual that state a 20 MOA base is required to achieve the full elevation range of that scope, and sure enough, with my 20 MOA base I had the advertised elevation range of the scope.

But with the NF, there is no such note to the user. I checked the base to ensure it is indeed snugly fitted to the receiver, and sure enough it is. No issues or obstructions with the rings where they fasten to the rail.

So I have gone the not-so-cheap route and ordered a NF 40 MOA base. I had another 20 MOA base on order from Larue so I cnx'ed that, and I am only out another $40.

I am going to the range today to shoot this set up and see how it performs at 300 yards.

Jim Watson
July 13, 2012, 10:49 AM
A friend had that problem. Careful measurements showed he actually had about a 17 MOA base which did not help. He sent it back and the maker remachined it to the maximum taper its thickness allowed, 28 MOA. That was enough for 1000 yards but it got tight at 1200.

A 40 MOA base will probably not let you zero at 100 yards. So what?
Said friend shoots close range for ammo checks at a "thermometer target", a tall piece of paper with a 5 MOA aiming point like a bullseye near the bottom and a scale running up the target so he can see the elevation for various longer ranges.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 10:57 AM
A 40 MOA base will probably not let you zero at 100 yards. So what?

I keep this particular rifle zeoed at 300 yds primarily for target shooting, and when I hunt with it, I put on a different scope with a lower power range, but I keep that zeroed at 300yards also. At 100 to 200 yards, the bullet is 5 to 6 inches high, so I aim at the lower third of the deer's chest.

atblis
July 13, 2012, 02:26 PM
Zeiss put that comment in because the scope has a limited elevation adjustment range. It's otherwise no different than any other scope. The scope has no clue if it's on regular or 20 MOA bases. By full range, they mean 40 MOA, not 20 MOA. There's something wrong with your rifle and/or the mounts. Are you sure you have a 20 MOA base? Perhaps it was mislabeled/mispackaged by the manufacturer.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 06:31 PM
Zeiss put that comment in because the scope has a limited elevation adjustment range. It's otherwise no different than any other scope. The scope has no clue if it's on regular or 20 MOA bases. By full range, they mean 40 MOA, not 20 MOA. There's something wrong with your rifle and/or the mounts. Are you sure you have a 20 MOA base? Perhaps it was mislabeled/mispackaged by the manufacturer.

Concerning the Zeiss Scope, it had a total of about 25 MOA up and down for a range of about 50 MOA, but that meant without the 20 MOA base, it would have only had 5 MOA upward elevation. But that scope is history now.

Now I am in some agreement, there is something wrong somewhere and I just can't quite figure it out. While at the range today, I changed out the Larue rings for some Burris Xtreme tactical rings I had in my tool kit, and it really didn't change anything. Also, it seems as if something is warped or out of alignment with the scope and the mount/rings as you stated above.
I am sure the 20 MOA base from Larue is labeled as a 20 MOA base because it is clearly printed on the side, and I can tell there is a definite downward cant from rear to front, but no I can't definitively say it is exactly 20 MOA.

Still perplexed and searching for a solution. I may take the whole thing apart tonite and put it back together. I have seen that work in other situations where the problem seems to eliminate itself when everything is dis- then reassembled.

atblis
July 13, 2012, 08:13 PM
There is no amount of adjustment that is allocated solely to up or down by the scope. It's simply elevation adjustment. You can bias it using different mounts. Zeiss means that to have the 50 MOA available for up adjustments, you'll need a 20 MOA base.

Notice that you're missing about the same amount of up elevation adjustment despite having switched scopes.

With the Zeiss 25 MOA+20 MOA= 45 MOA, Observed 25 MOA, Difference 20 MOA
With NF 32 MOA+20 MOA = 52 MOA, Observed 32 MOA, Difference 20 MOA
This assumes the scope is centered at the zeroed range.

Jasper1573
July 13, 2012, 10:52 PM
Notice that you're missing about the same amount of up elevation adjustment despite having switched scopes.

With the Zeiss 25 MOA+20 MOA= 45 MOA, Observed 25 MOA, Difference 20 MOA
With NF 32 MOA+20 MOA = 52 MOA, Observed 32 MOA, Difference 20 MOA
This assumes the scope is centered at the zeroed range.

Yes, that is what I have been trying to say...I am baffled as to why that 20 MOA base doesn't seem to have the intended effect. It is as if it is a flat base and doesn't add anything to the elevation adjustment range of the scope.

Prior to the Zeiss and the NF scopes, I used a Sightron SIII which has 100+ MOA of elevation, so whether the 20 MOA base had any effect is hard to say because the scope had so much elevation adjustment all by itself.

Does anyone know how to determine whether the cant of a 20 MOA base is actually 20 MOA? I understand the math, but it is the method of measurement that might prove difficult.

atblis
July 14, 2012, 07:29 AM
Compare the location of the crosshair between having the scope mounted forward and flipped around in the mount (no adjustments made, just flipping the scope around in the mount). Just need to put the base on the same flat surface both times. The reference surface doesn't have to be level, just the same for both cases. Use a vertically gridded target.

Jasper1573
July 22, 2012, 09:21 PM
Well, I ordered a NF 40 MOA base and that provided 20 MOA of "additional" elevation adjustment than I had with the 20 MOA base. I also changed out the Larue rings for a pair of Burris Xtreme rings.

At a minimum, I now have 52 MOA of upward adjustment remaining on the scope with a 300 yard zero. I don't think there was anything wrong with the Larue mount and rings nor do I believe there is anything screwed up about my rifle...it was simply zeroed at the middle of the range for both the NF and Zeiss scopes mentioned previously. Everything is operating properly now with plenty of windage and elevation adjustment.

I do think that a 40 MOA base seems a bit excessive, but NF makes them for a reason.

Thanks for all of the info and inputs and thoughts. I may try out another stock on the rifle and see if that has any effect, but for now everything seems to be working well.

LAL357
September 27, 2012, 09:10 PM
hey jasper this is larry are you aure you have the 20moa base facing in the right direction ? with that 40moa base you might want to set up at 100 and 200 yds also to see if you can adjust down for them or what your hold under will be so you will know when we shoot the backwoods matches next year.
the only reason i went with the sightron III 10x50x60 lrir moa2 scope was i was worried about being over the f t/r limit since i want to start shooting other place that might have sanctioned matches. iwas worried with the weight of the NF scopes it would put me over the limit.
if its really bad mirage (mostly on our range becuase of the gravel down range in front of the targets) i turn it down to 35-40 power (only had to go below that once this year) other than that i leave it up on 50 and shoot thru the mirage.i did notice that going with a better/higher magnification scope my scores have gone up it could also be the crosshairs i think that is why i'm only shooting in the mid 180's on my 6.5 creedmoor i'm using the old bushnell elite 4200 8x32x40 that was only my 308 when i started shooting your matches.

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