.357 or .45 long colt


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test drive
June 29, 2012, 12:58 AM
gun in question colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl. im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it. which has more? now say at 5 feet the .45 would win out if nothin else just make a bigger hole. but as distance increases does the .357 mag gain ground or will it allways take a back seat to .45 long colt? this is not a which to buy as I have made my choice. this is to clear up a argument. thanks

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Gryffydd
June 29, 2012, 01:05 AM
Seeing as how you're pretty much limited to the original ~12k PSI loads for the .45 Colt in that particular gun, the .357 wins pretty easily. Having said that, a 250gr bullet, even at 800-900 feet per second is no slouch.

Go find an external ballistics calculator on the web if you want to find out how the two rounds behave at any given distance.

im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it.
By the way, these may not all even be the same thing, depending on how someone decides to interpret them.

test drive
June 29, 2012, 02:16 AM
thank you. the argument im into is with a few wana be "cow boys" who shoot .45 long colt and have no understanding of ballistics and say that the 45 being larger in cal. gives it more power or knock down than the smaller .357

Gryffydd
June 29, 2012, 02:54 AM
Well, it's not so much the larger diameter of the bullet, but the .45 Colt can be much more powerful than the .357. I can easily get 300gr bullets going 1200fps out of my 5.5" Blackhawk...

If they're chalking it up to the diameter that's pretty silly, but there are a lot of variables that can change the answer.

Fanfare Ends
June 29, 2012, 03:03 AM
LOL!

1911Tuner
June 29, 2012, 05:38 AM
Don't sell the old .45 short. A blunt 250-grain slug at 900 fps is perfectly capable of wrecking your entire day.

The British pretty well solved the problem of bullet effectiveness on human beings over 250 years ago with their "Heavy ball/Light charge" approach in the smoothbore musket which launched a 3/4 inch diameter ball at around 800 fps. Due to the set-piece tactics of the day, they weren't concerned with trajectories or even precise accuracy. All they wanted was to put their man down. Pictures from the American Civil War bear grisly testament to what damage was inflicted on a human limb by a 500-grain Minie' that left the muzzle at a nominal 960 fps.

Heavy ball. Light charge. The formula was frighteningly effective in 1750, and it still is.

USSR
June 29, 2012, 07:41 AM
im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it. which has more? now say at 5 feet the .45 would win out if nothin else just make a bigger hole. but as distance increases dose the .357 mag gain ground or will it allways take a back seat to .45 long colt?

If you're talking about something empirical such as "knock down power", having shot deer with both the .357 Magnum (factory ammo) and the .45LC (handloaded ammo), I can tell you without a doubt that the .45LC properly loaded (255+gr SWC @ 1000+fps) has more "knock down power" than the .357 Magnum.

Don

Stainz
June 29, 2012, 07:48 AM
Perhaps they were referring to the original black powder loads of a 250gr LRNFP over 40gr fff bp? Reportedly, that shot from a 7.5" Peacemaker broke 1,000 fps, while modern smokeless rounds are detuned to stay within the 14kpsi max loading and are quite a bit milder - often pushing the same pill at 200+ fps slower, too. As an example, a 125gr JHP .357 Magnum would have to make over 1,414 fps to equal the kinetic energy - or 2,000+ fps to equal the momentum - of that original bp .45 Colt. Without expansion, the .45 Colt will always make a 60+% larger wound area (hole).

Stainz

Brian Williams
June 29, 2012, 09:19 AM
One of my favorites, was a Taurus Tracker in 45 Colt, if I still had it I would carry it over my S&W 13 in 357. With 255 gr LFPRN and a bunch of unique it was a thumper. Recoil was a hard shove and not the sharp rap a 357 tends to have. Since there was a lower recoil it was easier to keep shots on target. While I love the 357, if i had to I would carry a 5 shot 45 Colt over a 357 anyday.

Brian Williams
June 29, 2012, 09:21 AM
OBTW, what is your choice since you state that in the OP.

SlamFire1
June 29, 2012, 09:35 AM
If you are simply shooting lead bullets, or very hard lead bullets that don't expand, I would go with the 45 LC causing more damage.

It would cut a larger hole. Both rounds will completely penetrate someone, the larger hole is a good thing.

When you get into expanding bullets, it has been said that the 125 grain JHP in a 357 is the best self defense round in a handgun, you can push those things up 1500 fps. I think, I can't find any 125gr velocities in my chronograph data, but I have 158's at 1250 fps.

The difference in momentum between a 158 at 1250 fps and a 250 gr bullet at 900 fps, the larger and heavier bullet will have a bit more momentum, but I really doubt it means anything on a living being.

The original black powder load for the 45 LC pushed a 255 L at 1000 fps. I have seen chronograph data in magazines, that load is very powerful.

Flip a coin.

bsms
June 29, 2012, 09:41 AM
There is no such thing as knockdown power. There is damage to tissue that may or may not stop someone. If you don't hit something vital, neither will have much knockdown power. If you do, both will have ample knockdown power - but remember, even if you shoot someone in the heart with a 44 Mag, there is enough blood in the brain to allow the person to shoot back for 10-20 seconds. That is long enough to empty a 15 round magazine.

With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper. That usually isn't a big deal with humans if the ammo you are comparing is a 45.

The truth is that no handgun can be counted on to stop anyone with one shot unless you are lucky enough to hit the brain.

Brian Williams
June 29, 2012, 10:11 AM
Why are we still talking about the "original" Black Powder load. When a 45 Colt is loaded to today's standards, with today's projectiles and in today's guns we will have much more stopping power than any 357.

these specs from Buffalo Bore
BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Ammo - 225 gr. Barnes XPB 1,500 fps.
225 gr at 1500fps is nothing to sneeze at.

Greg528iT
June 29, 2012, 10:19 AM
Seeing as how you're pretty much limited to the original ~12k PSI loads for the .45 Colt in that particular gun

WHAT particular gun? Was there an edit I didn't see?
Buy a Ruger Black Hawk and one can way exceed 12k psi.

JohnBT
June 29, 2012, 10:21 AM
I don't think Buffalo Bore wants you shooting that load in a Colt single action. They don't list it.

I'm assuming from the barrel length it's a SAA. - "colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl."

John

ljnowell
June 29, 2012, 10:21 AM
With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper. That usually isn't a big deal with humans if the ammo you are comparing is a 45.



Wouldnt bet on that, too much variation in factory loadings. I have seen factory 255 lswc completely pentetrate a deer. Not little deer either, these are big midwestern corn fed deer.

BSA1
June 29, 2012, 10:22 AM
The 45 Colt wins hands down. You can not deny that a big bore lets air in and blood out whereas the 357 relys on the unreliable probability of expansion of the hollow point to gain maximum performance.

The 45 Colt was THE magnum cartridge of its day until the advent of the 357. i feel it's large size, history of it's evolution and attitudes of society contributed to it's demise rather than shortcomings of the cartridge itself.

coolluke01
June 29, 2012, 10:23 AM
Can a Colt SAA clone take full house loads? Or would you have to go with a Blackhawk to have full power in a SAA?

USSR
June 29, 2012, 10:51 AM
With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper.

Not necessarily. Totally depends upon bullet weight and construction. I used to hunt with Winchester's 145gr Silvertip ammo in .357 Magnum, but found little penetration with this round unless it was a thru-the-ribs shot. With handgun rounds, bullet weight and construction is much more important than velocity. Just MHO.

Don

USSR
June 29, 2012, 10:52 AM
Can a Colt SAA clone take full house loads? Or would you have to go with a Blackhawk to have full power in a SAA?

No. With a Colt SAA clone, stick to standard .45LC pressure levels.

Don

Gryffydd
June 29, 2012, 11:21 AM
WHAT particular gun? Was there an edit I didn't see?
Buy a Ruger Black Hawk and one can way exceed 12k psi.
OP said (and still says--no edit):
gun in question colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl
And I'm quite aware of the capabilities of the 45 Colt in a Blackhawk. See post #4.

skeeziks
June 29, 2012, 11:31 AM
I'm assuming from the barrel length it's a SAA. - "colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl.

JohnBT.... The barrel length would be 4 3/4" not 4 5/8".

Colt SAA = 4 3/4"
Ruger Vaquero = 4 5/8"

Lawdawg45
June 29, 2012, 11:32 AM
Don't sell the old .45 short. A blunt 250-grain slug at 900 fps is perfectly capable of wrecking your entire day.

The British pretty well solved the problem of bullet effectiveness on human beings over 250 years ago with their "Heavy ball/Light charge" approach in the smoothbore musket which launched a 3/4 inch diameter ball at around 800 fps. Due to the set-piece tactics of the day, they weren't concerned with trajectories or even precise accuracy. All they wanted was to put their man down. Pictures from the American Civil War bear grisly testament to what damage was inflicted on a human limb by a 500-grain Minie' that left the muzzle at a nominal 960 fps.

Heavy ball. Light charge. The formula was frighteningly effective in 1750, and it still is.

Exactly. The 250 grain JHP traveling around 950 fps was the perfect Elmer Keith SD load. Anyone willing to argue with him on that?;)

LD

skeeziks
June 29, 2012, 11:37 AM
With both loaded up to max, the .45 Colt wins easily.
The .45 Colt can be loaded to exceed the .44 Mag. and everyone knows the .44 outperforms the .357 Mag.

End of story....

black_powder_Rob
June 29, 2012, 11:52 AM
@ skeeziks that maybe true if both are loaded up to max, but op said the gun was a colt single action with a 4 and 5/8 barrel, if he is talking about the SAA then most (as far as I know will) will not take a full house 45 load, i am not sure about the .357.



also keep in mind that those black powder loads that went over the 1000 fps were with a 7 inch barrel in a ballon head case that held the 40 grs of bp. I am not saying the 357 would have more knock down power, just wondering if these things were accounted for.

Greg528iT
June 29, 2012, 12:02 PM
gun in question colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl.
OK, yes it did say colt.. To tell the truth, since Colt was not capitalized, I read it as, a 45 colt cartridge and a 4 - 5/8" barrel, since he does not specify, say S&W .357 and a barrel length for a comparison gun.
My bad for mis reading it.
If I had a true Colt .45 SAA.. I'd keep it.. shoot low level loads out of it.. and also buy a Ruger BH for some MAX loads. :D

skeeziks
June 29, 2012, 12:35 PM
skeeziks that maybe true if both are loaded up to max, but op said the gun was a colt single action with a 4 and 5/8 barrel, if he is talking about the SAA then most (as far as I know will) will not take a full house 45 load, i am not sure about the .357.

That's the whole thing....we can't be exactly sure what the gun in question is.
He does say "colt" but he also says "4 5/8" barrel. So is it a Colt or is it a Ruger?
If he is limiting the chaps that he is having this argument with to a Colt SAA, then he would be correct.
But putting the 2 cartridges head-to-head, with no consideration to the weapon firing them, the .45 Colt wins hands down.

Snag
June 29, 2012, 12:49 PM
Interesting thread. I don't own a 357, I do have a 45 Colt.

Don't know how much ft/lbs means to anyone, or even myself, but I was playing around with Sierra's Infinity software and at 25 yards both a 158 gr 357 bullet at 1250 fps and a 250 gr 452 bullet at 950 fps have almost the same energy, right around 500 ft/lbs. The 357 beats the 45 up to 44 yards, after that the 45 takes the lead.

StrawHat
June 29, 2012, 01:16 PM
It is not really too hard to load a 45 long Colt to 1000 fps with smokeless and get it with a 4 3/4" barrel.Unique will get you there. With the short tube and black powder I do not think you will get there. I get close with a 5 1/2" tube but at 900+ fps the load is not a powderpuff by any means.

Given revolvers with equal length barrels, I would opt for the 45 long Colt. Actually, I opt for the 45 long Colt over the 357 all the time as I have sold off all of my 357 Magnum firearms. (Anything I need to do with a 36 caliber handgun can be easily accomplished with the 38 Special but that is for another thread.) The 45 is easier to shoot accurately and reloading is a snap. THe extra diameter is always a plus as is the penetration of those big 260 grain cast bullets. In many ways the 45 long Colt is all you really need.

Just One Shot
June 29, 2012, 01:31 PM
Both rounds have their merit so unless you reload I would go with the .357 as it's cheaper to shoot. That's assuming you are planning on practicing with your new gun. ;)

bsms
June 29, 2012, 04:53 PM
Not necessarily. Totally depends upon bullet weight and construction. I used to hunt with Winchester's 145gr Silvertip ammo in .357 Magnum, but found little penetration with this round unless it was a thru-the-ribs shot. With handgun rounds, bullet weight and construction is much more important than velocity. Just MHO.

Don
Yes, bullet construction matters enormously. However, for a given bullet construction, using standard pressure loads, a 357 of a given sectional density will hit traveling much faster. It will thus be likely to penetrate deeper, unless it is a hollowpoint that opens up while the slower moving 45 hollowpoint does not.

For knockdown power, a bigger diameter hole has minimal value. If you hit the heart, either makes a hole that will cause death. The only time the wider bullet has the advantage for immediate knockdown power is if the 357 bullets misses a vital by about 0.05 inches. For eventual damage, if penetration is equal, then the wider bullet wins...but you might need to wait a few minutes for the blood loss to take effect.

Frankly, either a 45 Colt or a 357 will do an excellent job of killing a man - about as well as any handgun bullet will. I personally prefer a 44 special loaded to around 900-1000 fps, but I also honestly cannot think of any evidence that it will kill a human faster than a 357 or 45. I just like shooting 44s...

For concealed carry, I generally use 38+P in my 357 because I shoot well with it and I'm convinced the Buffalobore ammo will do a good job. And because my Blackhawk in 357 weighs too much for CCW...

I think most caliber debates like this are a waste of breath. My daughter-in-law can't shoot anything bigger than a 22 LR with a realistic hope of hitting it, so that is what I tell her to carry until her shooting improves - if it ever does. But a 357 is not inferior to a 44 or 45. Both the 357 and the 45 have a darn good track record over many years of regular use in self-defense.

1911Tuner
June 29, 2012, 05:04 PM
However, for a given bullet construction, using standard pressure loads, a 357 of a given sectional density will hit traveling much faster. It will thus be likely to penetrate deeper, unless it is a hollowpoint that opens up while the slower moving 45 hollowpoint does not.

Not necessarily. For one thing, you forgot to factor in mass. The other one...the one that so many fail to consider...is the law of action and reaction. It applies.

1. The faster a given mass is traveling when it encounters a given resistance, the more rapidly it decelerates. In layman's terms: The harder the bullet hits the target, the harder the target hits the bullet.

2. The lower the mass, the faster it decelerates when it encounters a given resistance.

Case in point. Two .44 magnum handloads, fired from a 7.5-inch Super Blackhawk, both with cast SWC bullets of a similar shape. One weighed 240 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps. The other was a 290 grain slug at just under a thousand fps.

Old earth mover tire laying on its side. The faster 240 grain bullet shot through one tread and stopped in the other. The slower heavy bullet shot through both and came to rest in parts unknown. Interestingly, a standard pressure .45 hardball penetrated one tread and up to its base in the other. The fast 240-grain bullet didn't beat it by all that much.

smkummer
June 29, 2012, 06:04 PM
A 357 chambered Colt SAA will weight 4.5 oz. heavier than the same gun in 45 Colt. Of course the cartridge weight will somewhat reduce that figure but its still noticeable. The .357 needs about a 6 in. barrel or more to get the velocity that make it a magnum. You can get 900 FPS safely in the Colt SAA and that is a stout round. If you shoot that load one handed with the plowhandle SAA, it will recoil the barrel to the 12 oclock position abruptly. For stopping power, it would be the 45 Colt. For economy and usefulness, it would be the .357.

gp911
June 29, 2012, 08:47 PM
Buffalo Bore makes a 255 @ 1000 load that is safe for the SAA. That would be my choice, but a 357 has plenty of merit & versatility as well.

rcmodel
June 29, 2012, 08:59 PM
I have been hit by bullet bounce-backs off of target backstops more then once.

A .357 158 stings & smarts.

A standard cowboy velocity 255 grain .45 Colt took a heel clear off a good cowboy boot and knocked my leg out from under me so I almost fell on my azz.

Energy has nothing much to do at all with handgun so-called "knock down" power.

Case in point:
Would you rather get hit with a socker ball or a bowling ball going 100 miles an hour???

The correct answer is socker ball.
You might possibly shrug that off without laying on the ground.

A hundred mile an hour bowling ball will tear you a new one!

rc

JohnBT
June 29, 2012, 10:34 PM
"The barrel length would be 4 3/4" not 4 5/8""

That's funny, I looked right at it and saw 4 3/4". Of course, I am waiting to receive a barely used SAA I bought yesterday, so I must have them on the brain.

John

Dudemeister
June 29, 2012, 11:05 PM
I read all this thread, and it's interesting that there are many references to the .357 bullet expansion, as if HP or JHP bullets were the sole realm of the .357.

I've loaded plenty .45LC with XTP JHP, and I'm pretty sure that given an opportunity to expand they would do quite a bit more damage than and .357.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), I haven't had a chance to test this, as most of my shooting is relegated to range paper punching, but I wouldn't hesitate to trust those loads for SD.

Jaymo
June 29, 2012, 11:14 PM
I say buy one of each. They're both good rounds. I'm a diehard big bore fan, but I also like the .357.
One benefit of the .45 colt over the .357 is the lack of the earsplitting blast. They're both loud, but the .357 is excessively so.

56hawk
June 29, 2012, 11:44 PM
A 357 can push a 180 grain bullet to 1650 fps and 1087 ft-lbs of energy out of a nine inch barrel. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt353.htm

If you compare the original specs for both rounds:
357 125 grain 1450 fps 583 ft-lbs
45 255 grain 930 fps 490 ft-lbs

Using ammo safe for a SAA, the 357 will be more powerful. Loaded to crazy pressure the 45 will edge out the 357.

cpt-t
June 29, 2012, 11:45 PM
test drive: I have been shooting a 45 LC for a very long time. I bought my first 45 LC in 1972 and old 7 1/2 Ruger Blackhawk continvertible, an old 3 screw. I still have it and still use it a lot. My Son and I have picked up several more over the years. And it is our favorite calbier. I have reloaded for the 45 LC for a long time. We also have several 357 MAG`S and reload for them also. I use to load a 255 gr hard cast lead SWC with 10 gr`s of Unique to hunt with and shot this load a lot. I never had to look very far for any thing i shot with this load. I am not a high teck type person but I truley belive and it has been my experience that the 45 LC will out perform the 357 MAG. And the heavy BUFFALO BORE, and COR BON loads in 45 LC are in a nother league all to grather, but I am getting old and my wrists won`t take the recoil any more. GOOD LUCK TO YOU: ken

56hawk
June 29, 2012, 11:52 PM
Energy has nothing much to do at all with handgun so-called "knock down" power.

Case in point:
Would you rather get hit with a socker ball or a bowling ball going 100 miles an hour???

The correct answer is socker ball.
You might possibly shrug that off without laying on the ground.

A hundred mile an hour bowling ball will tear you a new one!

rc

Well, the correct comparison would be a soccer ball at 100 mph or a bowling ball at 24 mph. Not sure which would be worse, but I think I would rather be hit by the bowling ball.

pps
June 29, 2012, 11:53 PM
Here is a compilation of some 45 Colt (loaded to "Ruger only" pressures) with a 325 grain LFN bullet, some hollow pointed others flat nose. Bullet on lower left is a .357 158 grain SJHP at about 1250 fps and penetrated 17" into a rubber mulch bullet trap.

You can see the velocity and bullet construction, along with retained weights of the 45 colt rounds. All of these heavier rounds out-penetrated the .357 thorough the rubber mulch. The hollow point round blew apart and shedded about 90 more grains of mass than it's slower counterpart when the impact velocity was kicked up from 1100fps to 1300fps.

I like BOTH rounds, but I keep my Blackhawk as my side arm for pissed off porkers.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/Hand%20Loading/Huntingammotests.jpg

gp911
June 30, 2012, 12:34 AM
The Ruger-only loads are not an option for the OP, he wants a Colt SAA. The BB 255gr @1000fps load is pretty much his limit. Honestly it's my limit even in my Bisley Blackhawk, that 300+ grainer at 1200 is brutal!

1911Tuner
June 30, 2012, 06:18 AM
Let's try another comparison besides the bowling ball/soccer ball. One that I often use to illustrate the difference between momentum and energy.

The M193 ball round vs the original .45-70 Govt. A 55-grain bullet at 3200 fps vs a 405-grain bullet at 1300 fps.

There is little practical difference in the respective muzzle energies, but the 405-grain slug will drive through an elk lengthwise while the 55-grain sizzler probably won't make it much farther than the chest muscles.

coolluke01
June 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
Tuner,

The only reason the 55 gain speedster may not make it through the chest of an elk would be due to fragmentation. This is a totally different issue. I've had my 270 with soft nose bullets only penetrate a whitetail 3" from 20 yards. Destroyed the entire shoulder of meat. When I switched to nosler partitions this problem went away. I would get full passthrough with that round.
I would be willing to bet a green tip 5.56 will give you all the penetration you want.

1911Tuner
June 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
The only reason the 55 gain speedster may not make it through the chest of an elk would be due to fragmentation.

Nope. The ball rounds don't fragment unless they turn 180 degrees. Straight-line, the little screamer won't penetrate to anything even approaching the big slug's depth.

Let's try again.

You've got a brick wall to knock down in three hours. Which will you choose for the task...a 6-ounce ball peen hammer that you can swing really fast...or a 10-pound sledge?

Mass and momentum.

Jaymo
June 30, 2012, 04:24 PM
The recoil of a .45 Colt is also a lot less snappy than a .357 mag, out of the same gun.

KevinB
June 30, 2012, 07:17 PM
1911Tuner,

Very interesting points. Thanks for the illustrations, really helps those of us who don't do math ;).

1911Tuner
July 1, 2012, 07:20 AM
Y'welcome Kevin.

These things are easy to see by studying some long-range ballistics tables in reloading manuals.

Example:

Two .30 caliber bullets of identical shape (Boattail spire point) and very similar BCs...150 at 2800 fps and a 165 at 2600 mv. At 100 yards, the 150 will shed a greater percentage of its initial velocity. At 300 yards, it's starting to become noticeable. At around 450 yards, they're moving at about the same speed. By 500 yards, the 165 is closing the gap. At 600 yards, the 165 passes the 150 despite the 200 fps lead at the beginning.

It's a phenomenon that the old-timers were describing when they said that a heavier caliber "carries" better at distance. The Buffalo hunters were never concerned with energy. They needed a bullet with enough mass to drive through both shoulders of a big bull standing way out there. They opted for longer cases and more velocity with the big Sharps rifles in order to flatten trajectories...not to increase energies.

357 Terms
July 1, 2012, 07:35 AM
Holding a 300grn XTP in one hand and a 180grn XTP in the other, it occurs to me that I could throw that 45 XTP at something and hurt it!

Hot 45 Colts are hard hitting behemoths, far outperforming the 357.

Standard pressure 45 Colts don't match a hot 357.

35 Whelen
July 1, 2012, 10:20 AM
The 45 Colt wins hands down. You can not deny that a big bore lets air in and blood out whereas the 357 relys on the unreliable probability of expansion of the hollow point to gain maximum performance.

The 45 Colt was THE magnum cartridge of its day until the advent of the 357. i feel it's large size, history of it's evolution and attitudes of society contributed to it's demise rather than shortcomings of the cartridge itself.

EXACTLY.

And what most people don't realize is when any bullet DOES expand it loses sectional density and therefore penetrates far less than one of the same weight that doesn't expand.

This question was answered decades ago by those such as Elmer Keith who handgun hunted after the .357 was introduced, but prior to the advent of the .44 Magnum. Two cartridges prevailed in their circles: the .44 Special and the 45 Colt. This simply because larger diameter bullets make larger holes. In Colt SA's either the 44 Special or the 45 Colt will do 1000 fps with a 250 gr. bullet.

The terms "knock down power", "energy on target", "power factor", etc. are nothing mre than ways to compare similar cartridges.

35W

CraigC
July 1, 2012, 06:21 PM
The .45Colt (or .44Spl) hands down, any day of the week and twice on Sunday. A moderately loaded big bore like the .45Colt at SAA pressure levels will put more on target than any .357 and do so without making your ears bleed.

Kinetic energy is meaningless and FAR too dependent upon velocity.

ghitch75
July 3, 2012, 09:59 AM
i have both but i like throwin' a slow 8# bowlin' ball at 30mph than a 15oz baseball doin' 100mph.....but thats me...

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