AK-47 as a trail gun? bear gun?


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mailman
July 1, 2012, 01:04 AM
I love my AK-47 and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made. A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK? The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics. What about bears? Oftentimes the 44 magnum is used as a bear defense system, but the Ak is more powerful then the magnum.

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Cal-gun Fan
July 1, 2012, 01:20 AM
Depends what you're thinking when you say trail gun. I wouldn't take an AK backpacking, but if I'm, say, truck camping, or driving up to a spot in the woods and hiking? Sure, great choice. I'd advise you use Wolf 154gr soft point rounds.

Where do you live? Black bears are generally non-aggressive and afraid of you. I really enjoy seeing them out in the wild, wouldn't want to shoot one.

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 01:21 AM
There isn't a huge difference in energy between the two compared with heavier 44 slugs. But, the bullet design for the 7.62x39 is a spire point, not a truncated slug like the 44 mag. The rifle round is designed to yaw and tear flesh, making a wound channel, and the 7.62 isn't that good at that. It more or less just blazes on through. The 44 smashes, creating a devastating shock that puts a hostile critter on its behind. This projectile design is why shotgun slugs are popular in bear country.

I'm not a bear expert, but I advise against the AKs use for bear medicine. Coy dogs? Sure. Deer? Absolutely. People? Yup.

No bears though.

The AK has the 44 trumped in range. Most bear charges, from what I read, are kinda like people skirmishes; close range and happen quick. Unless you know the bear is going to attack from 200 yards away, the rifle round is not as ideal as that flat, heavy bullet of the magnum.
I would suggest a 44 mag lever action, with a stout pistol as back up should you need it, like a Glock 20 or Colt anaconda. But, your best bet is an 870 with slugs.

R.W.Dale
July 1, 2012, 01:25 AM
I like my AK bullpup as a brush/trail deer rifle.

But make no mistake its NOT a large caliber magnum revolver shooting hardcast bullets. Even though energy figures favor 7.62x39 it takes understanding the difference in how a medium bore intermediate rifle cartridge kills vs the completely different mechanics that are in play with a large caliber slow moving chunk of lead.

fallout mike
July 1, 2012, 01:25 AM
M4,M16 jamomatics??

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 01:33 AM
M4,M16 jamomatics??
Yeah, idk about that one either. I'm not a huge fan of DI, but jamomatics the M4 is not. They can jam, but they do not deserve that title. M16 of the Vietnam era might, but today's guns are a world apart from their predecessor.

You know what the M4 also isn't? A bear gun, kinda like the AK-47 shouldn't be.

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 01:41 AM
Or just get yourself a 16" Saiga .308 with the skeleton stock. Even unconverted, they're a very handy rifle. Lightweight, compact, and a LOT of firepower in your hands.

fallout mike
July 1, 2012, 01:45 AM
Yep, when I think of a bear gun a ak47 isn't in my thoughts.

savage1r
July 1, 2012, 01:55 AM
Only if you're reloading 200gr .314 gc'd bullets in it.

TonyAngel
July 1, 2012, 02:09 AM
Even if the choice was between an AR and an AK, I'd take the AR all day long. The main reason being the availability of ammunition. The only ammunition available for an AK are the steel cased import variety, as far as I know. It's been a while since I gave AKs any thought.

Your charaterization of ARs as being jamomatics leads me to believe that you know very little about ARs.

In any case, I own plenty of rifles to include crack barrels, semi autos and bolt actions. These days, my chosen woods/trail rifle has been a carbine length lever action. If you need the thump, a .44 would do nicely.

mljdeckard
July 1, 2012, 02:12 AM
Why not? I keep the SKS across the handlebars for two and four-legged predators.

Now, where I live, I won't encounter anything bigger than a black bear. Grizzlies are a different conversation.

MachIVshooter
July 1, 2012, 02:21 AM
Welcome aboard, mailman!

That said, time for a little chastising :evil::

I love my AK-47 and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made.

Wrong. Even from a handgun, heavy .44 mag loads can exceed the energy of 7.62x39mm from a rifle:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54

Then there are the .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W and a number of other proprietary and wildcat big bores that can produce much more energy than the 7.62x39mm (think nearly 3,000 ft/lbs for the .460 mag and .500 mag. from a revolver)

A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK?

People like the .44 (and other big bore magnums) because carrying a handgun is much easier when they're not actually hunting the bear.

The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics.

This tired old rhetoric has been proven wrong time and time again. It's something the AK guys like to spout off to keep ground whilst admitting that the AK will not hold a candle to the AR's accuracy. Simple fact is, both are very reliable weapons. Incidentally, of the numerous examples I own/have owned of both, the AR has proven more reliable than the AK. If it's my butt on the line, I'll take the AR every single time.

Don't get me wrong, the AK is preferable to a sharp stick for sure, but as falloutmike said:

when I think of a bear gun a ak47 isn't in my thoughts.

If I'm gonna take a long gun into grizz country, it won't be chambered in a pitiful round like the x39. It'll be my .45-70 levergun with heavy loads or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs.

Snowdog
July 1, 2012, 06:27 AM
You lost me at the "jamomatic" comment.

Your charaterization of ARs as being jamomatics leads me to believe that you know very little about ARs .

Bingo. The 60's are over.

plateshooter
July 1, 2012, 06:42 AM
You have an AK, and you say you love your AK. From my personal experience, Wolf 154gr steel case AK ammo worked great on the two 250lb+ hogs I have shot with it. Tennis ball size exit wound and the hogs were both dead at the shot. IMO, the AK would make a great trail gun. We all have our different opinions and experiences but I would feel quite confident with my old SAR1.

As far as ARs go, I have a 20 inch barreled AR in 762X39 and I like that gun too. The one I have is just too heavy for me to consider it a trail gun. No jams, very accurate and reliable with the AR Stoner 10 Round mags that I use.

WardenWolf
July 1, 2012, 07:30 AM
PRVI Partizan makes an evil soft point that resembles a .30-30 round. I feel confident it'd wreck anything short of a grizzly's day. Just a nasty round.

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 07:46 AM
PRVI Partizan makes an evil soft point that resembles a .30-30 round. I feel confident it'd wreck anything short of a grizzly's day. Just a nasty round.
Are you referring to the Grom?

Ian
July 1, 2012, 09:03 AM
I built an SBR AK that makes an absolutely fantastic trail gun. It's a great balance of size and firepower, especially with a 20-round mag of softpoints.

plouffedaddy
July 1, 2012, 09:58 AM
I built an SBR AK that makes an absolutely fantastic trail gun. It's a great balance of size and firepower, especially with a 20-round mag of softpoints.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMAG1255.jpg

You beat me to it. The advantage of the AK over a 44/460/500 revolver is the rate of fire. I know there are a lot of wheelgunners that are extremely talented but most people can accurately get off more shots with an AK at a given distance than with a revolver. The disadvantage would be if the bear surprised you---probably easier to employ the revolver if the bear got a hold of you (but the goal is to not let that happen :D)

msrfrog
July 1, 2012, 10:20 AM
I got my saiga 7.62 as a black bear gun. They are getting to the point of being a pest here.But I had always wanted a ak type gun. It is fun to shoot and not too heavy to sling around the trails. I can not wait to convert mine.

dprice3844444
July 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
an ak with proper loads with bullets designed for bear/penetration, would be a good trail gun as the spire points would produce good penetration to reach the vitals,and not expand in the fat like hollowpoints will.also,clip capacity,at 30,if applicable by law,should be sufficient.

oldpapps
July 1, 2012, 11:26 AM
Mr mailman,

"AK-47 as a trail gun (1)? bear gun (2)?
I love my AK-47 (3) and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made (4). A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK? The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics (5). What about bears? Oftentimes the 44 magnum is used as a bear defense system, but the Ak is more powerful then the magnum."

(1) What? Just ambling down a fence row or hiking into a camp sight. I need more information to give a qualified answer to this question.
(2) The expected breed of bear that you anticipate makes a very large difference.
(3) There is your answer. The AK is your preference, not mine but yours.
(4) A 7.62X39 more potent than ANY and ALL pistol rounds. Don't think so. A faster rate of fire, yes, faster reloading, yes. But better energy transfer, no. Quicker to bring into action, no.
(5) Very provocative statement. Many will agree and many will not, I am one who does not agree.

If I am just ambling about out on my North East ridge, I can carry anything I like including my .375 H&H. Not good for much up there, but I could carry it.
Back when I could, when I walked into a place called 'Spout Springs Hollows', I didn't carry anything that wasn't needed.

I'm not sure that this is a valid post and was intended to stir up a controversy. And it has.
I wonder is some guy is logged in with his normal ID and setting back laughing his back side off. Matters not.

mailman
July 1, 2012, 11:31 AM
Lets face it. The M4 jams...

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM:

“Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

25th Infantry Division soldier:

“The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”

82nd Airborne Division soldier:

“The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:

“My unit – B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment – was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can’t believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s."

MachIVshooter
July 1, 2012, 11:46 AM
I smell troll droppings.............

DesertFox
July 1, 2012, 12:22 PM
Big talk from low post count noobs... I'm catching the wafting of troll stools myself...

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
I smell troll droppings.............
Two posts in and he's already stirring the pot!

Even as much as I prefer the gas piston/AK design to the direct impingement system, calling the M4 a "jamomatics" is a blatant overstatement.

The AK, and correct me if I'm wrong, was never designed for bears in mind. Not did Stoner figure an AR would make a grizzly deterrent. Any rifle is better than none in bear country, but there are better options than the 7.62x39. It's a mid range deer round at best, not really qualified for bears. Same as cape buffalo or elephant, bears are most likely best dispatched with a hard hitting, slow moving round capable of bone crushing power with massive energy transfer. You aren't deer hunting, so penetration with controlled expansion bullets out of a round that mirrors the 30-30 at best should not really be an option. Whoever here said 45-70 earlier was in the correct spectrum of cartridge choice.

Also Mach, he's off topic on his OWN topic. I'd say the billy goats Gruff need to watch this guy closely.

Snowdog
July 1, 2012, 12:33 PM
I doubt there's any mass-produced military rifle that has never malfunctioned. The 100% reliable automatic rifle has yet to be invented because it never will.

There's a difference between something that has recorded malfunctions and a "jamomatic". The Chauchat... that would be my definition of a jamomatic, though semantics can be subjective.

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 12:43 PM
:banghead:Don't feed the trolls!

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 12:47 PM
1. Fully automatic weapons (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fworld.guns.ru%2Fassault%2Fas01-e.htm&ei=zn_wT623JYiw8ATs6-2YDQ&usg=AFQjCNEir7UHFd68e8SUsl2zDGU0myb0Ew&sig2=qZUF8Gv9cO2pJK1QxxPCpQ)are illegal to use on game in at least most states.

2. Seriously? And for the record, any time your weapon doesn't go bang, that's a malfunction. If tools are required to clear that malfunction, it's a jam.

Welcome to THR. You've already started a thread with "AK-47" and "bear" in the title. We're watching.

John

rondog
July 1, 2012, 01:05 PM
Personally, I'd rather carry my Winchester Trapper in .44 mag. With the right ammo in it, I wouldn't be afraid of anything in N. America. It'll handle much hotter loads than my revolver will. And any other people see you carrying an "evil AK-47" on a trail or in the woods, and they're going to assume you're up to no good. You'd be more likely to get called in as a nut with a gun with an AK than any other more "normal" looking rifle.

I understand the guys that own AK's seem to really like them, but it's just not a gun that I'm interested in owning. And there's no denying they have a reputation as the weapon of choice for "the bad guys", such as every Communist and Terrorist on the planet.

Average people WILL associate the AK with "bad guys", no matter how YOU feel about them. Especially the non-gunners you're likely to run into out hiking/camping/fishing in the woods. They'll see that curved magazine, and that's all it'll take.

They've seen curved magazines on TV in the hands of our enemies for many years. This = bad.

They've seen lever-action rifles in the hands of cowboys and John Wayne. This = good.

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 01:11 PM
Personally, I'd rather carry my Winchester Trapper in .44 mag. With the right ammo in it, I wouldn't be afraid of anything in N. America. It'll handle much hotter loads than my revolver will. And any other people see you carrying an "evil AK-47" on a trail or in the woods, and they're going to assume you're up to no good. You'd be more likely to get called in as a nut with a gun with an AK than any other more "normal" looking rifle.

I understand the guys that own AK's seem to really like them, but it's just not a gun that I'm interested in owning. And there's no denying they have a reputation as the weapon of choice for "the bad guys", such as every Communist and Terrorist on the planet.

Average people WILL associate the AK with "bad guys", no matter how YOU feel about them. Especially the non-gunners you're likely to run into out hiking/camping/fishing in the woods. They'll see that curved magazine, and that's all it'll take.

They've seen curved magazines on TV in the hands of our enemies for many years. This = bad.

They've seen lever-action rifles in the hands of cowboys and John Wayne. This = good.
I'm an AK fanatic. I agree with you.

The majority of leftists aren't going to see you strapped with one of the most historically important and globally encompassed firearm of ground breaking design in the AK variants. They're going to see a terrorist. Gun folk know better, but uneducated folk won't understand.

I also think your choice of firearm and caliber are a better choice for bears. While I'll stick to my AKs for SHTF or deer, or even SD over your Trapper...in bear country, my bet is that if we were attacked, you're carrying my carcass out.

Alaska444
July 1, 2012, 01:20 PM
AK, SKS, AR for bear defense. Wow, that it the latest craze on TFL and THR the last couple of months.

If you want a semi-auto for bear defense, go with the BAR with caliber of your choice over 30-06 as a minimum.

AK-47, no way, not for bear.

TonyAngel
July 1, 2012, 01:26 PM
Geez, we've got another quoting what he's read, with apparently zero personal experience, on the subject of ARs.

Anyway, I thought that the subject of this thread was the use of an AK as a trail gun where it may be used in situations that may involve black bears.

To me, a trail gun is something that you have with you, just in case you need it. It has nothing to do with your primary reason for being on the trail and you have it for the same reasons that you are carrying a knife, compass, paracord, poncho and matches. You just want to be prepared, "just in case."

For me, an AK just doesn't fall into this category. I don't care how short you make it, it's still going to be big and bulky. This is why many carry big bore revolvers and/or lever guns. They are light and easy to pack around. Personally, an AR would be my last choice as a trail rifle as far as that goes.

I may be mistaken about this, but I also believe that there is a pretty big shortage of ammunition selection. I don't know what the situation is today, but my last experience with AKs was that AKs have a bore diameter of .311, as opposed to the .308 bore of American .308 rifles; so shooting the better ammunition out of an AK may be a "no go."

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 01:28 PM
An AK-47 is fully automatic.

Just as a M4 is fully automatic/selective.

Just as a M16 is fully automatic/selective.

1 more time: an AK-47 is fully automatic. Further, most AK-pattern rifles are based on the AKM, not the AK-47.

mailman
July 1, 2012, 01:31 PM
Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family? This isnt AR15.com. We should be able to post our observations and experiences freely.

When I talk about AK or AR, I am talking about the semi-automatic versions and derivatives of sold here in the US.

mshootnit
July 1, 2012, 01:32 PM
I would have no problem taking along my 74 as a saddle rifle. It is light small and slim. I would probly just take one or two 10 round mags.

When I shot my deer with my 308 AK (Vepr which I customized) it was a great time and a good performer.

If I were in bear country, I would take my 16" Saiga 308 loaded hot and heavy. And it would be a very practical option for self defense.

Everyone needs to keep a more open mind of what you are talking about when you talk about AK's. There are some great hunting versions now. You get too closed minded you start to sound like J Zumbo.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d14/rizbunk77/SDC10869.jpg

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 01:38 PM
Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family? This isnt AR15.com. We should be able to post our observations and experiences freely.

When I talk about AK or AR, I am talking about the semi-automatic versions and derivatives of sold here in the US.
I don't think it's so much that you posed an opinion, it's that you did so without having introduced yourself as a new member, And without any post history to go by, none of us have any knowledge of your experience, or if you're just flapping your jaws.

Calling the AR-15 (better Jshirley?) a jamomatics in your very first post was a bit of a bait. Same could be said had you called the AKM (just for you J!) a piece of crap. Then, we are on the subject of bears. We don't know what bears you fear, or why you would pose a question to us as to the usefulness of the AK-variant rifle for ANY bear period, and what relevance that has to another AK vs AR thread, but with bears thrown in.

Start off humble before stirring th pot.

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 01:38 PM
I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family

No, if you'd fully activated the troll alert, you wouldn't have been able to post #3, because you'd be gone already. You have, however, invoked 2 frequently "warmly debated" topics in one single thread. So tread lightly, or you can go ahead and fail the attitude check right now. Your choice. :)

MMM, you crack me up. :D

My personal opinion is that a sturdy 7.62x39mm semi-automatic makes a fine trail gun, as long as you're not in Big Bear country. If you are indeed in Alaska, or a northern state where the game could be of a size to stomp a Volkswagon (moose have been known to!) a slide-action 12 gauge loaded with slugs would be a much better choice. Or a carbine in any of the "handgun" cartridges that are more powerful than 7.62x39mm, such as .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W, to name just a few...

John

fallout mike
July 1, 2012, 01:43 PM
And we ain't in iraq or Afghanistan on a battlefield.

mshootnit
July 1, 2012, 01:45 PM
the common or casual sportsman can see a few more jams with AR's and get the idea that they are jam o matics. The reason is because a guy is buying cheap mags out of a box at the pawn shop, buying the cheapest ammo they can find and feeding it through a rifle never intended for military service. You will see jams.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 1, 2012, 01:48 PM
2. Seriously? And for the record, any time your weapon doesn't go bang, that's a malfunction. If tools are required to clear that malfunction, it's a jam.

transitive and intransitive verb stop something working: to cause a piece of machinery or equipment to stick or stop working, or to become stuck or stop working
"The photocopier jammed."

Another term for jam is stoppage

stoppage: an instance of something being blocked or prevented from functioning
"a paper jam in the printer"


A malfunction does make the gun stop working until it's cleared, thus being a jam.


1 more time: an AK-47 is fully automatic. Further, most AK-pattern rifles are based on the AKM, not the AK-47.

That's just nitpicking in my opinion. Most people, including gun people, call 7.62x39 caliber AK rifles, AK 47s. I call my Tantal an AK 74.

As for the AR being a jammomatic, that's false. The AR is less reliable but it's not something that malfunctions all the time, only when it gets very dirty.

the common or casual sportsman can see a few more jams with AR's and get the idea that they are jam o matics. The reason is because a guy is buying cheap mags out of a box at the pawn shop, buying the cheapest ammo they can find and feeding it through a rifle never intended for military service. You will see jams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfaDchth9Q&feature=plcp
Military issue mags, ammo, intended for military service. They have trouble when dirty. This is the truth. I don't have an AR yet but eventually I'll build the receiver that I have and then have an AR 15. It's a good gun.

TonyAngel
July 1, 2012, 01:50 PM
Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family?

What is it that makes you believe that it is a valid criticism? Lots of guys visit THR because they are looking for good information. What you have posted is not good information and will mislead others that do not know better.

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 01:50 PM
That's just nitpicking in my opinion

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I never hear anyone who knows anything about firearms call their AR-15 carbine "a M16". :)

Further, I never hear "gun people" call their MAK-90s (for example) "an AK-47". Maybe we hang out with different gun people.
John

fallout mike
July 1, 2012, 01:55 PM
I agree with jshirley!!

DNS
July 1, 2012, 01:56 PM
No to the AK.

12 gauge and slugs.

meanmrmustard
July 1, 2012, 02:02 PM
I have been known to call them an AK, without the designation "47", which to me supplements info to those I'm talking to that I'm discussing a semi auto variant and the family as a whole, not the full auto rifle itself. But I see J's point. I don't go to the range to shoot my Smith and Wesson M-16. Non gun folks would be confused as hell if we called our rifles what they were patterned after, and the leftists do not need more ammo against us. That's why terms like "AK variant" and "M4 style carbine" make sense to us, and not " them".:banghead:

Back on "topic :rolleyes:". OP, what bears do you readily encounter, and what is the average size of this species in its range that overlaps your home turf? No one can tell you what rifle to legally carry for protection, but maybe some one here with more experience can give you insight on a better gun/cartridge combo for the species that frequent your hills and hollers.:)

ByAnyMeans
July 1, 2012, 02:02 PM
RE: trolling

I know some guys who are not trolling boards who do truly believe the AR family to be unreliable. Granted they don't post two "classic" topics in one on there first post but maybe he is new to gun forums all together not just THR.



RE: AK for bear gun


If I was to keep rifles handy around the home it would be an AR and AK. The AR in the house for it's lower penetration through walls and faster follow up shots. In the house I'm expecting to defend against humans over animals.

My around the mountain property gun would be an AK with twenty rounds magazine. Good hunting ammo will do me just fine for any bear, coyote, or dog pack I run into and still do it's job if called on to handle a two legged threat. Granted a handgun will always be on me and the AK would be on the ATV or in the truck. In the Northeast Mountains of PA the bears are smaller, where not talking Alaskan bears here.

They would both be set up with a nice red dot to co-witness and sling. As it is all the roles a long gun is needed for around my house is handled with a 12 gauge pump action with a variety of shells. The rifles are reserved for hunting, plinking, practice drills and all out mayhem situations.



EDIT TO ADD: several choices for quality hunting ammo in 7.62x39 with multiples different bullet styles from Federal, Corbon, Barnes and there are others out there.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_99_125/products_id/6515

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-762x39-federal-powershok-123gr-sp-ammo/cName/762x39-soft-point

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=93975/pid=43260/Product/FEDERAL-POWER-SHOK-SOFT-POINT-AMMUNITION?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=nextag&mc_id=

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-762x39-corbon-hunter-125gr-jhp-ammo/cName/762x39-hollow-point

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Barnes-M/LE-TAC-X-Bullets-310-123-grain&i=423029&r=view&aID=510P1B&cID=GSHOP_423029

http://stores.nextag.com/store/4857533/product/1085236284/Barnes-Bullets-31012-7

Cosmoline
July 1, 2012, 02:13 PM
The 7.62x39 has been used to kill brown bear, but it's not exactly the best choice. The one example I know of was a poaching incident and the fella went to jail for it. So certainly it can kill a brown bear. It can kill an elephant. But the bullet weight, sectional density, shape, and composition all make it a poor choice for big game--esp. for defense against attacking big game.

Very few with much knowledge of the contemporary AR platform would agree with your blanket condemnation of it. And in fact there are a number of AR uppers made for cartridges that could be viable against a brown bear. The biggest drawback, other than expense, is that by the time you rig your AR for such a round it's become heavy and cumbersome.

The M4 jams...

Everything this side of a rolling block will jam. Certainly ALL semis jam. Including the vaunted AK-47. And none of them like to have a bunch of crud in the works. Put sand or mud into a garand or M1A? It jams too. At least the AR's have a dust cover.

JShirley
July 1, 2012, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I call them "AK pattern". ('Cuz they are. ;))

I have a "PA rifle"- it's a Remington 7600 in .35 Whelen. A 7600 in .30-06 would be a fine choice for a general "truck gun" or quick protective rifle in most places in the US. I've seen plenty of used but good-shape 7600s and 760s in pawn shops over the years, sometimes at silly cheap prices.

If somebody wanted to carry an AK just because, well, that's their right. If somebody has an SKS, because they bought one when they could be had for $79, and that's all they have, well, okay. But if somebody is looking for a board full of folks to justify why they should buy an AK to carry around on the trail "for bear"...well, that's just silly. :D

John

taliv
July 1, 2012, 02:28 PM
this thread is all kinds of wrong.

If you want to start a new thread to talk about AKs for bears, I suppose that would be ok. Likewise, if you need help identifying MAK90 vs AK, or M16 vs AR15. And if you need assistance with your AR15 malfunctioning, you can open a thread about that.

But let's not do all those at once.

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