[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

This is after months of false accusations from Kerry, The DNC, and their political allies in the press and info-tainment media about Bush's guard service.

For Kerry to level this charge now is proof positive that he is a dangerous sociopath just as Clinton was.


Kerry Blasts Bush Over Attacks on Record

Feb 21, 11:18 PM (ET)

By NEDRA PICKLER (this can't a real name :D)

ATLANTA (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry accused President Bush on Saturday of using surrogates to attack his military service in Vietnam and his subsequent activism against that war.

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/thumbnails//DEMOCRATS_KERRY.sff_CAK105_20040221211107.jpg
"Quick, vote for me before the Botox wears off and I look like a Sharpei again..."

In a letter to Bush, Kerry wrote: "As you well know, Vietnam was a very difficult and painful period in our nation's history, and the struggle for our veterans continues. So, it has been hard to believe that you would choose to reopen these wounds for your personal political gain. But, that is what you have chosen to do." (pure sociopathy, truly breathtaking)

Kerry was reacting to criticism earlier in the day from a leading Georgia Republican who, speaking for Bush's re-election campaign, predicted trouble for Kerry in the state's primary.

Sen. Saxby Chambliss said during a conference call arranged by the Bush campaign that Kerry has a "32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems."

When Kerry responded later, at his side was Max Cleland, a triple-amputee Vietnam veteran who lost his Senate seat to Chambliss in 2002 after being portrayed as soft on homeland security.

He said the president "decided once again to take the low road of American politics."

"Saxby Chambliss, on the part of the president and his henchmen, decided today to question my commitment to the defense of our nation," Kerry said in Georgia, one of 10 states choosing electoral delegates on March 2.

Kerry said Bush used the same strategy to beat John McCain in the 2000 race for the Republican presidential nomination, and during the Chambliss-Cleland race.

In his letter to Bush, Kerry called Chambliss' run against Cleland "one of the most despicable campaigns ever conducted." (next to Kerry's current run for the Presidency that is)

During the news conference, Kerry said he voted for the largest defense and intelligence budgets in American history, although sometimes he "voted for common sense to make changes." (An outright lie, he voted to cut DoD and Intelligence community funding)

Bush, he said, was ignoring issues like jobs and health care to "engage in the politics of fear."

Kerry has gotten the endorsement of John Lewis, a civil rights leader and Georgia's longest-serving congressman. But Sen. Zell Miller, D-Ga., is backing Bush.

Kerry also defended his military record during an interview taped Saturday for broadcast Sunday morning on ABC's "This Week."

"I don't know what it is that all these Republicans who didn't serve in Vietnam are fighting a war against those of us who did," the Massachusetts senator said.

Kerry has campaigned on his Vietnam combat record, which includes three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star.

Chambliss said Kerry, despite his service, has a weak record on military issues.

"He has a long history, particularly in the last decade, of not only voting to cut intelligence spending, but introducing bills to cut intelligence spending," Chambliss said.

Cleland, a Democrat, had some criticism for Chambliss.

"For Saxby Chambliss, who got out of going to Vietnam because of a trick knee, to attack John Kerry as weak on the defense of our nation is like a mackerel in the moonlight that both shines and stinks," he said.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040222/D80S2RDO1.html

[Don Gwinn]

"For Saxby Chambliss, who got out of going to Vietnam because of a trick knee, to attack John Kerry as weak on the defense of our nation is like a mackerel in the moonlight that both shines and stinks," he said.
YEAH!! THAT'S--
Hey, wait. . . . . what? :scrutiny:


Has Chambliss been studying tape of Dan Rather?

[Greg Bell]

Max is nuts. He whines and whines about the Republicans calling his patriotism into question. He knows that is B.S. We were calling his I.Q. into question. His votes on defense issues were moronic. They can try to spin it into "poor Max" but the fact is he was WAY too liberal for GA voters. He had been hiding behind that chair for too long, and people got tired of voting for a liberal out of pity. Yeah Max, you got a tough break, get over it. Quit using your infirmity in an attempt to silence criticism. It is petty and pathetic all at once.

ghb

[I'mSpartacus!]

Don't you guys know the rules? If a liberal questions a conservative is must be treated as if it is fact and now the conservative must demonstrate his innocence -- Stalinistic show trial.

If a conservative questions a liberal the charges must be taken lightly and even if they are proven an explaination must be forwarded to the public to soften the possible blow to the liberal's image.

If a conservative (i.e. Bob Dole) seeks to use war experience as a credential to gain trust, that is improper, but if a liberal (John Kerry) seeks to use war experience for the same reason that is pertainate and the #1 qualification for his being elected.

Aren't any of you journalism majors? This must be an introductory lesson in Journalism 101.

[greyhound]

Good grief, I thought the lot of them was going to shut up about Vietnam and tell us what they are going to do with the current war.

So far I have heard Kerry bellow about "Bush's fearmongering" and "police matters". Kinda sounds like he doesn't believe there's a war on at all; not exactly inspiring or in line with my own views.

On the other hand, I know where President Bush stands.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

to attack John Kerry as weak on the defense of our nation

WHen he was a junior officer, he had no say in the defense of this country. He did what he was told.

When he was a congressman and senator, he did have a say in the defense of this country, and he told defense and intel to drop dead.

SO, how exactly is service as a grunt prepare you to defend this great country, but acting as a congress critter to cut defense and intelligence at every turn is to be ignored?:confused: :uhoh: :scrutiny: :barf:

These people are the master of irony. The joke is on the rubes that believe him. Unfortunately, we sufer along with them.:mad:

BTW. Max "I am disabled" Clelland is no war hero. He inadvertently picked up a live/activated grenade on a non-combat mission. However, what he did in Vietnam is irrelevant. Look at how he succeeded in life despite his disabilities. I certainly do not agree with his politics, or his current "look at them beating on the cripple" whining.

[capt_happypants]

If you head over to www.adamyoshida.com, here's a brief example of systems that Kerry wanted to cut during the 80s

1. MX
2. B-1
3. ASAT
4. Star Wars
5. DIVADS (okay, he got one right)
6. AH-64 Apache
7. Tomahawk
8. Patriot

I don't think that Kerry fully understands the implications of the Internet. Anyone with a computer and a modem can fact-check his glueteus maximus in a heartbeat. He's got so much baggage that it's a matter of weeks before Kerry has his own "Yeeearrrrghhhhh!" moment.

[Leatherneck]

Leatherneck (Vietnam vet) to Kerry (Vietnam vet):
You, Sir, are a FRIGGIN' LIAR! :cuss:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Waitone]

Kerry has to be a flaming idiot to keep stoking. First it was a fight between Kerry and Bush picked by McAullife. Second, Kerry will lose this one. The guy have a legislative rap sheet longer than his arm. He is profusely documented and demonstrates conclusively that he stands to the left of Ted Kennedy. Now I don't know about you neck of the woods but Mass. liberal democrats don't do real well down here.

Who cares? Clinto, Clinton, and Soros will drop him just like they dropped Dean.

[BSlacker]

Bush attacks him on his 30 year record of trashing defense and Kerry whines back about his strong Vietnam war record. Just how is that related to his voting to sink defense and leave this country helpless. If he can't grasp this one issue any better than this he is in big trouble. If everytime the Repulicans attack him he whines back Vietnam then he is sunk. He has got to convice Americans that he is strong on defense today and his record is terrible. Americans won't accept that for an answer. :D

[nipprdog]

remember when Dean gave some statistics on Kerry's special interest raised dollars.
Kerry demanded an apology then also.

its like he's saying, "how dare you tell the truth about me!"

[Langenator]

The GOP could make one heck of a commercial showing clips of all the major weapons systems that Sen. Kerry voted against in action in Iraq of Afghanistan, giving the name of the item followed by "Senator Kerry voted against it."

It would be a pretty long commercial, though.

Kerry has stated that he thinks the GWOT should be a intelligence and law enforcement operation. Senator Kerry needs to visit NYC to see who well that worked.

Ann Coulter has an excellent column on the flap over Max Cleland (http://www.anncoulter.org/) this week. Cleland lost his limbs to an American grenade, possibly his own. It was only after he got un-elected that he suddenly lost them in "heroic action, to a VC grenade during the siege of Khe Sahn." Pardon me if I'm incorrect, but wasn't the Khe Sahn siege an NVA operation?

[MarkDido]

>>These people are the master of irony. The joke is on the rubes that believe him. Unfortunately, we sufer along with them.>>

Given the attention span of the average American concerning politics, let's hope these "rubes" stay home to watch "Friends" or "American Idol" in November instead of going out to vote!

[Malone LaVeigh]

I would be a lot more likely to vote for Kerrey if he had been able to actually stop any of that wasteful spending on the military.

[NC Shooter]

More for Kerry from a letter to the editor in the Washington Post...


To John Kerry,

My wife had rotator cuff surgery earlier this year, and the recovery is terribly painful.

Then, she developed a staph-epi infection, and they had to cut the same scar open and operate on her again.

Just thinking about the pain and anxiety of facing that painful surgery a second time in the same wound, makes me cringe.

That experience, however pales in comparison to what I am going through right now, in my heart.

The old hurts are surfacing and the feelings of betrayal by fellow citizens are breaking my heart again. I am being cut in the same scar.

How did we who served in Vietnam suddenly become cold-blooded killers, torturers, and rapists, of the ilk of the Nazi SS or the Taliban?

Most of us were American soldiers who grew up idolizing John Wayne, Roy Rogers, and all the other heroes. That was why I volunteered.

But, for political expediency, John Kerry has rewritten history, again.

After spending only four months in the country of Vietnam, John Kerry testified before Congress in 1971about incidents he supposedly witnessed with these exact words regarding the conduct of our troops:

“They personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

If Mr. Kerry, or any person, saw such things happening, that person would have the responsibility of doing something about it.

Yet, Mr. Kerry, who was armed, who had the authority of a military officer, and who had Military Police at his disposal, did nothing.

Further, as a military officer, it was his obligation to report such things, yet he didn't even file a report about any of it.

What's going on here?

Why did you, Mr. Kerry, not act?

Are you a coward or a liar?

I was a green beret officer who volunteered for duty in Vietnam and fought in the thick of it in 1968 and 1969 on a Special Forces A-team on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, just for starters. We were the elite. We saw the most action. Everybody in the world knows that. But we did not just kill people, we built a church, a school, treated illnesses, passed out soap, food, and clothing, and had fun and loving interaction with the indigenous people of Vietnam, just like our boys did in Normandy, Baghdad, Saigon, and everywhere American soldiers ever served. We all gave away our candy bars and rations to kids. Our hearts go out to oppressed people all over the globe.

My children and grandchildren could read your words, Mr. Kerry, and think those horrendous things about me.

You, Mr. Kerry, are a bold-faced, unprincipled liar, and a disgrace, and you have dishonored me and all my fellow Vietnam veterans.

Sure, there were a couple bad-apples, but I saw none, and I saw it all, and if I would have seen something like what you "said you witnessed", as an army officer, it was my obligation to stop it, or at the very least report it.

Why is there not a single record anywhere of you ever reporting any incidents like this or having the perpetrators arrested?

The answer is simple. You are a liar.

Your medals and mine are not a free pass for lifetime, Senator Kerry, to bypass character, integrity, and morality. I earn my green beret over and over daily in all aspects of my life.

Eight National Guard green berets, plus other National Guard soldiers, have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you totally dishonored their widows and families by saying that being in The National Guard service is like being a draft-dodger, conscientious objector, and deserter.

You did this, just so you can try to sabotage the patriotism of our President who proudly served as an Air National Guard jet pilot.

I have a son earning his green beret at Fort Bragg right now, and his wife serves honorably in the Air National Guard, just like President Bush did, and I am as proud of her as I am my son.

I volunteered for Vietnam and have no problem whatsoever an Air National Guard jet pilot being our Commander-In-Chief.

John Kerry, you personally derailed the Vietnam Human Rights Bill, HR2883, in 2001, after it had passed the House by a 411 to 1 vote.

411 to 1. That certainly sounds like the will of the people being expressed, yet you derailed the bill and buried it in committee until too late, and, as a result, thousands of pro-American Montagnard tribespeople in Vietnam died since then who could have been saved, by you.

Earlier, as Chair of the Senate Select Committee on MIA/POW Affairs, you personally quashed the efforts of any and all veterans to report sightings of living POW’s.

You have fought tooth and nail to push for the US to normalize relations with Vietnam for years.

Why, Mr. Kerry?

Simple.

Your first cousin, C. Stewart Forbes, CEO, of Colliers International, with your help, recently signed a contract with Hanoi, worth BILLIONS of dollars for Collier’s International to become the exclusive real estate representative for the country of Vietnam.

Money you need to serve your political needs.

When it served your political needs, you even committed the treasonous act of an officer in the US Military publicly calling the USA a war criminal for our help of the Vietnamese people, and you publicly stated that you were ashamed of your involvement in such a war, and ran around the country posing with Jane Fonda and condeming our country.

Now, you're shouting, "Hey, look at me, I got a Silver Star in Viet Nam - I'm a war hero."

Additional military records show that you were not in combat, you were commanding a "Swift Boat." on the river.

Operating orders for such a command prohibit you from grounding/beaching your craft unless under orders from a superior to do so to save our troops engaging in combat.

Reports state that you saw a wounded Viet Cong, shot by an M50, and unconscious, and you grounded/beached your craft.

You then proceeded to fatally shoot the unconscious man in the head (another violation), then reported it as a combat kill to get a medal (silver star) for yourself.

“Hanoi John,” now that it works for you, you beat your chest about your Vietnam service, but to me, you are a phony, opportunistic, lieing hypocrite.

You are one of those politicians that is like a fertilizer machine: all that comes out of you is horse manure, and you are spreading it everywhere.

Medals do not make a man. Morals do.

You have none, and, I sir, am ashamed that you served in the same military as I.

Don Bendell
Canon City, Colorado

Don Bendell served as an officer in four Special Forces Groups, is a best-selling author with over 1,500,000 books in print, a 1995 inductee into the International Karate Hall of Fame, and owns karate schools in southern Colorado.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

:eek: You won't see that on CNN or the NY Slime :eek:

If this is true (and I have reason to believe it), then this information needs to come out on the national stage.

Did you hear that Kerry was against the 1986 raids on Libya?

[Malone LaVeigh]

For the record, Kerry did not claim he witnessed atrocities in Viet Nam. In his testimony before Congress, he was quoting other witnesses.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/20/1535232

PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT

JOHN KERRY: Several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit--the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that, at times, they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term "winter soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776, when he spoke of the "sunshine patriots," and "summertime soldiers" who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel, because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

I'm going to start another thread on this. I'm no Kerry fan, but too many people around here have been making false claims about what he said to Congress. The actual testimony is actually quite illuminating, and says a lot about why a lot of us were against that war.

[greyhound]

All well and good, except if I understand correctly Kerry started accusing the opposition of attacking his Vietnam service when what was actually questioned was his voting record since.

Personally, I want both sides to knock off the Vietnam stuff (Bush was AWOL! Kerry sat two rows back from Jane Fonda at an anti-war rally!:rolleyes: ) and tell me what they are going to do NOW.

Or if that is too much to ask, at least lets debate what they've done fairly recently, not 32+ years ago.

[Malone LaVeigh]

I agree. That's why I started another thread to discuss this in the context of the VN question. I don't like what either of them have done lately.

[NC Shooter]

>Personally, I want both sides to knock off the Vietnam stuff (Bush was AWOL! Kerry sat two rows back from Jane Fonda at an anti-war rally! ) and tell me what they are going to do NOW.<

I believe both Kerry's and Bush's voting records speak for themselves. Kerry would have us roll over and not go after known terrorists, thus risking more US civilian lives, and Bush would not allow it.

[Bruce H]

The absolute best thing John Kerry could do for the United States is let Edward M Kennedy drive him home.

[Langenator]

Greyhoud hit the nail on the head-Sen. Chambliss was criticizing Sen Kerry's two decades plus worth of votes on national security related matters, and the Kerry campaign spins it as somehow Vietnam-related.

Kerry has two decades+ worth of Senate voting record, and his voting record on defense and national security related issues is something that he would rather not be seen. He voted against things that Reagan did that helped us win the Cold War. He sided with Clinton on things that have severely hurt our ability to fight the war on terror, and probably helped lead to 9/11. And he's been for whatever he thought would get him votes at the time since 9/11. I can't recall, but I wouldn't be surprised if he voted against Gulf War I.

Not a pretty picture.

[Monkeyleg]

Isn't it just a bit ironic that some of the very people who actively opposed the war in Vietnam are now using Kerry's Vietnam service as a reason to elect him, yet are berating Bush's Air National Guard service while calling him a "warmonger?"

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Irony is KING. They all laugh behind our back :barf:

[Lord Grey Boots]

So,

Has anyone in the Whitehouse or in the GOP attacked Kerry's Vietnam record?

Anyone....

His whole 4 months (as opposed to 11-13 months for everyone else except Al Gore...) of Vietnam service???

[Waitone]

Four monhts?

I know the details of his awarded actions. But 4 months incountry?

IIRC the tour was 12 months and you got out wounded (sufficiently), dead, or by political influence.

If his wounds were minor, how'd he pull off 4 months and out?

[Langenator]

Kerry got 3 Purple Hearts in those 4 months. IIRC, third Purple Heart was a ticket home if you wanted it.

[Acme]

I am of the opinion that if a Republican candidate had gotten three Purple Hearts in four months and then touted his "combat record" in a political campaign, the press would be climbing all over themselves to find out just exactly what each of those Purple Hearts was for and what the exact circumstances of each injury was. But Kerry is treated like a saint and his record goes unquestioned. I'm not saying that Kerry's record SHOULD be questioned, mind you...

Acme

[fix]

Your medals and mine are not a free pass for lifetime, Senator Kerry, to bypass character, integrity, and morality.

And the rubber finally meets the road. Shame everyone can't grasp this simple statement.

[Dannyboy]

Here's what gets me. Kerry is willing to debate W on life during Viet Nam, or whatever, as if he's already gotten the nomination and will whine about Bush declining. But he won't have a real debate with the guy that's running against him for that nomination. Talk about arrogance.

[Waitone]

A Kerry biography. FWIW.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/page2.html

[grampster]

If John Kerry says W is not qualified to call him
or debate him or make any comments about Kerry's
Vietnam experience because W was not in Vietnam, then
I submit that Kerry has no right to question W's
actions as President and occupant of the White House
because Kerry has never been President nor occupied
the White House.



:neener:

[Monkeyleg]

Does anyone remember Cokie Roberts, during the 1996 Republican convention, asking aloud on air why the Republicans were devoting so much time to Bob Dole's WWII service?

The man lost his right arm, for Christ's sake. Yet this liberal sycophant complained about Dole's service record.

Now the shoe is on the other foot. They have to simultaneously denounce war while trumpeting the record of those who participated in war. Talk about rocks and hard places.

Military service didn't help George HW Bush against Clinton, nor did Clinton's draft avoidance seem to hurt him. Dole obviously didn't gain traction from his WWII service in the 1996 campaign.

Speaking as a former 1960's mush-headed liberal, I think Kerry's strategy is to appeal to those who didn't want to fight, but want to believe they did something worthy, something just as worthy as fighting in a war. Kerry gives them the satisfaction of admitting they might have been wrong about Vietnam, while giving them the moral certaintude that war is still evil and they were right all the time.

Kerry doesn't talk out of both sides of his mouth. He'd need 60 mouths to explain his differing votes on national security issues.

Anyone who caught GW's jab at Kerry tonight should have gotten a good laugh.

[MicroBalrog]

"For Saxby Chambliss, who got out of going to Vietnam because of
a trick knee, to attack John Kerry as weak on the defense of our nation is like a mackerel in the moonlight that both shines and stinks,"

Give it to him straight!:D

[Greg Bell]

I've actually met Max and Saxby. Max is an idiot who thought his wheelchair would forever obscure the fact that he was northern liberal masquerading as a southern Democrat. It didn't work. I can tell you, if Max's endless bragging about his military record didn't help in Georgia, it won't help anywhere. Max's career as a mascot for the party leaders is at an end, and he is bitter.


GHB

[fallingblock]

"Speaking as a former 1960's mush-headed liberal, I think Kerry's strategy is to appeal to those who didn't want to fight, but want to believe they did something worthy, something just as worthy as fighting in a war."
************************************************************

I suffered the same situation/era-induced debility, but have since recovered.

Maybe we should have a "support group"?:)

I think "JFK-lite" is trying to play both sides of the street with this act.

Hopefully most voters won't be recidivist '60's mush-headed liberals.:D

[Monkeyleg]

fallingblock, in my defense--as well as yours--by the time it came to enlist, Walter Cronkite had already convinced the American people that the war was lost. In hindsight, I now recognize that he was at best misinformed or, at worst, lying.

Nevertheless, I knew by '67 that the Johnson administration was screwing up the war for politicial reaons that had nothing to do with winning or losing the war, or even just sustaining the troops. From what Vietnam vets here on THR have said, we could have won that war. And how different our country would be if we had.

A very close cousin of mine went in 1964 and did two tours. When he came back he told me, his brother, and any other guy he knew not to go. He died threee years ago from drinking himself to death. Others I knew at that time said pretty much the same thing.

I never tried to evade the draft, but neither did I volunteer. I just waited for the notice to arrive. Those here on THR who served have the absolute right to slam me for that. I didn't go, but they did.

And there's the rub: I feel guilty pretty much everyday for not going, but feel glad that I didn't have to go to a war that Johnson had destined to failure.

Back to the original topic: Al Gore tried to gain traction based on his Vietnam service. It didn't work. As mentioned before, Dole and George HW Bush tried to use their combat records, and failed. A couple of years ago, Bob Kerry floated a trial balloon to see what reaction the public would have to the results of a "friendly-fire" mission in Vietnam. It got some headlines, but didn't get him any traction either. It didn't help, didn't hurt, but definitately determined his assessment of his chances for running for president.

Following WWII, the candidate who served had a leg up on his opponent. I think the last vestige of that mentality was JFK's election in 1960. In the years following, a war record could be as much a liability as an asset.

If Kerry is going to hang his hat on his Vietnam service, he's in for real trouble. He's been on two or even three sides of national defense issues while in the senate.

You just have to love this quote from GW today: "The other party's nomination battle is still playing out. The candidates are an interesting group with diverse opinions," Bush said. "They're for tax cuts and against them. They're for NAFTA and against NAFTA. They're for the Patriot Act and against the Patriot Act. They're in favor of liberating Iraq, and opposed to it. And that's just one senator from Massachusetts."

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

You just have to love this quote from GW today: "The other party's nomination battle is still playing out. The candidates are an interesting group with diverse opinions," Bush said. "They're for tax cuts and against them. They're for NAFTA and against NAFTA. They're for the Patriot Act and against the Patriot Act. They're in favor of liberating Iraq, and opposed to it. And that's just one senator from Massachusetts."


Classic. Very much like something that Ronald Reagan might say.

The Bush team should get Peggy Noonan onboard as a speechwriter.




-edeted for spelling- CHL22:36-

[PAOLO721]

Kerry is touchy about his war record being brought out into the spotlight you are mistaken. He would like nothing better than the focus to remain right on it.

The real problem for Kerry is his abysmal record in the Senate and anything that keeps that gem under wraps is a plus in his attempt to get elected.

Campaigns have an ebb and flow all their own and when the time is right the Bush campaign will drag out Kerry's Senate record, kicking and screaming into the light of day. As Dean would say.......YEAAAAAAAAH!:D

[fallingblock]

"Walter Cronkite had already convinced the American people that the war was lost. In hindsight, I now recognize that he was at best misinformed or, at worst, lying."
************************************************************

Walter didn't hide his politics well.
He evolved into the senile "one-worlder" he is today from humble beginnings.


************************************************************
Nevertheless, I knew by '67 that the Johnson administration was screwing up the war for politicial reaons that had nothing to do with winning or losing the war, or even just sustaining the troops. From what Vietnam vets here on THR have said, we could have won that war. And how different our country would be if we had.
************************************************************


Indeed! Just a while back, on another thread, we were exploring the
"what ifs" of the U.S. not having become involved in Vietnam. I think that there would be a vastly different political scene today if either alternative had replaced the historical one.


************************************************************
A very close cousin of mine went in 1964 and did two tours. When he came back he told me, his brother, and any other guy he knew not to go. He died threee years ago from drinking himself to death. Others I knew at that time said pretty much the same thing.
************************************************************

My nephew was in Korea at the time and advised me to steer clear of the Army,as did my first cousin, an Army lieutenant who later was on his way stateside when the '68 Tet offensive hit.

One of my good friends went down with the John D. Evans and another lost his legs and suffered the same fate as your cousin. Two of my high school classmates are confined in psychiatric institutions, although their problems may stem more from their post service drug use than directly from their tours in Vietnam.

Not many Vietnam vets came back and advocated for their friends and family to volunteer, at least in my experience.

The notice came for me just after high school graduation:

"Greetings from the President...."


This was the same dufus who would later advocate & sign the GCA '68.


************************************************************
I never tried to evade the draft, but neither did I volunteer. I just waited for the notice to arrive. Those here on THR who served have the absolute right to slam me for that. I didn't go, but they did.

And there's the rub: I feel guilty pretty much everyday for not going, but feel glad that I didn't have to go to a war that Johnson had destined to failure.
************************************************************


I'll certainly pass on any slam on you, Monkeyleg.

I believe the Whitehouse, the media, and the anti-war political movement lost the Vietnam War, not the U.S. military.

And I blame my own subsequent attack of 'mush-headed liberal"-itis on the bizarre events of the '60's.:)


Back on topic:
************************************************************
"Following WWII, the candidate who served had a leg up on his opponent. I think the last vestige of that mentality was JFK's election in 1960. In the years following, a war record could be as much a liability as an asset.

If Kerry is going to hang his hat on his Vietnam service, he's in for real trouble. He's been on two or even three sides of national defense issues while in the senate."
************************************************************


I think Kerry is trying a new 'angle' for this election cycle:

"I served, and am a hero for doing so, but I protested the war, and that makes me a hero as well...."

Truly a scenario out of the addled sixties.:eek:

John Kerry may be even better at equivocation than Bill Clinton is.:barf:

[bountyhunter]

A very close cousin of mine went in 1964 and did two tours. When he came back he told me, his brother, and any other guy he knew not to go. ..... Others I knew at that time said pretty much the same thing.

Add my older brother to that club. He actually volunteered to go. When he came home, all he said to me was: "You were right."

[HunterGatherer]

Kerry Blasts Bush Over Attacks on Record Well, if there is some question as to whether the attacks are warranted, then certainly Senator Kerry can allay any misgivings that any of us may have by releasing all of his military records as President Bush was forced to.

And while we are at it, I have a modest proposal to make. I propose that the Justice Department offer blanket immunity to any of the 150 servicemen (willing to come forward/still alive/etc...) that Mr. Kerry mentioned in his testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.

Let's once and for all have these "Winter Soldiers" as they were called; come forward, and speak. Let's finally put this to rest.

A few small provisos: This time those soldiers must be positively identified, and their identity must be matched to the list of the "Winter Soldiers" project. Any that claim to be "highly decorated", as Mr. Kerry described them, must provide proof of those medals and awards. And of course - in order for their immunity to attach - they must specify who, what. when, and where; even if they aren't sure why the littany of atrocities they described were committed.

In retrospect, I would say that rather than being a modest proposal, I would in fact need to characterize this as being rather radical. Should Mr. Kerry accept this proposal, and should he convene this group 33 years later, and should their stories prove to in fact be true, it would almost certainly secure for him the office of President. Which (for me at least) would be anathema.

He will have shown himself to be right about the war in Viet Nam, it will show America how passionate he is about pursuing truth, and he will have provided all Americans an opportunity for national catharsis over what was arguably our worst war.

Ask me how I know he'll NEVER be willing to do it. ;)

[JOE MACK]

:cuss: THIS IS WHAT FROSTS MY COOKIES!


2/4/2004

Kerry and McAuliffe Reach New Low in Politics

Senator Associates Service in Guard with Draft Dodging, DNC Chairman says Guard Do Not Serve in Military!

BISMARCK, ND – This past weekend, Democrat National Committee Chairman, Terry McAuliffe, claimed that service in the National Guard was not service in “our military in our country”. Senator John Kerry (D-ND) went even further in his partisan attacks when asked to comment on McAuliffe’s statement. The Senator lumped people that went to Canada to avoid the draft or went to jail or were conscientious objectors with members of the National Guard.

McAuliffe and Kerry made these charges in a partisan tirade against President George W. Bush and his service in the National Guard. (The full quotes accompany this release.)

“Terry McAuliffe's and Senator Kerry’s gutter politics are nothing new but their partisan attacks should not be made towards the thousands of men and women here in North Dakota and all across our great nation that serve in the National Guard.” said Republican State Party Executive Director, Jason Stverak. “I think we can all agree that anyone in the National Guard is serving ‘our military in our country’ and National Guard members should never be compared to draft dodgers!”

Mr. McAuliffe’s and Senator Kerry’s charges against President Bush’s military record would be laughable if they were not so reprehensible. The non-partisan Annenberg Center at the University of Pennsylvania recently detailed how Mr. McAuliffe’s charges are without basis. The President was honorably discharged from the National Guard. Honorable discharge is not possible for those who have been AWOL from service.

Currently, there are over 1000 members of the North Dakota National Guard either serving in Iraq or mobilized for deployment to the theater.

TEXT OF MR. MCAULLIFE’S QUOTE "I look forward to that debate when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard. George Bush never served in our military in our country. He didn't show up when he should have showed up and there's John Kerry on the stage with a chest full of medals that he earned by saving lives of American soldiers. So, as John Kerry says, 'Bring it on.'"- ABC’s This Week – Feb 1, 2004

TEXT OF SENATOR KERRY’S QUOTE “I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard,” Kerry, a decorated Vietnam Veteran, told the Fox News Channel.”These are choices people make.” – Los Angeles Times – Feb. 4, 2004

- END -

How many more Guard units are in the thick of things in Afghanistan and Iraq? Many of them have been "In Country" months longer than Kerry. I say they rate a public apology from Kerry.:fire:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Senator John Kerry (D-ND)

:scrutiny: Did he move?

[Gew1898]

Jeez, if I'd known that I guess I wouldn't have spent most of the last year knocking around Iraq with all these other people in the Guard. Way to get votes man!

[PAOLO721]

by 7.62fullmetaljacket......Senator John Kerry (D-ND) did he move?

Maybe they are confusing him with Sen. Joseph (Bob) Kerrey (D-NE) you know the one who is a winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a SEAL team leader during action against enemy aggressor (Viet Cong) forces. Acting in response to reliable intelligence, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey led his SEAL team on a mission to capture important members of the enemy's area political cadre known to be located on an island in the bay of Nha Trang. In order to surprise the enemy, he and his team scaled a 350-foot sheer cliff to place themselves above the ledge on which the enemy was located. Splitting his team in 2 elements and coordinating both, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey led his men in the treacherous downward descent to the enemy's camp. Just as they neared the end of their descent, intense enemy fire was directed at them, and Lt. (jg.) Kerrey received massive injuries from a grenade which exploded at his feet and threw him backward onto the jagged rocks. Although bleeding profusely and suffering great pain, he displayed outstanding courage and presence of mind in immediately directing his element's fire into the heart of the enemy camp. Utilizing his radio, Lt. (jg.) Kerrey called in the second element's fire support which caught the confused Viet Cong in a devastating crossfire. After successfully suppressing the enemy's fire, and although immobilized by his multiple wounds, he continued to maintain calm, superlative control as he ordered his team to secure and defend an extraction site. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey resolutely directed his men, despite his near unconscious state, until he was eventually evacuated by helicopter. The havoc brought to the enemy by this very successful mission cannot be over-estimated. The enemy soldiers who were captured provided critical intelligence to the allied effort. Lt. (jg.) Kerrey's courageous and inspiring leadership, valiant fighting spirit, and tenacious devotion to duty in the face of almost overwhelming opposition sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.

Like so many other men of his caliber, Sen. Kerrey never boasted of his exploits or tossed his (someone else's actually) medals over a wall like another Senator did. Still some folks confuse the junior Senator from MA John Kerry with retired Senator Joseph (Bob) Kerrey from NE.

Some folks do, but I never will.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Bob Kerrey was a hero and succeeded despite his disability. He retired peacefully and, as far as I know, was a man of integrity and honor even though he was a "D." John Kerry may have been a hero, and he may have been something else, but we know what he is now.