[el Godfather]

Dear THR
I want to hear from the folks who are familiar with the .455. I want to know how were they when they came out in Webly & Scott and where does this caliber stand today.
In fact, is it a sufficiant SD caliber and size game can it take?

After all it was called the man stopper at one time? BTW why was it called that?

Thanks

[threoh8]

"Manstopper" was a name applied to some heavy wadcutter and hollow-cavity wadcutter loads for the .455 Webley, intended for personal defense.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/images/introduction-to-455-cartridges/43.gif

They came from the "large diameter, heavy bullet, lots of momentum, maximum transfer" school of thought on taking the fight out of one's opponent. IOW, pumpkin rollers with sharp edges.

[Quat]

It appeared in the mk i format very early 1890s, I believe and went through various other mk's as time passed. They were quite different from the original, the case was shortened from mk II on. I believe the other mk changes were to the bullet or powder charge, rather than the case, but I could be mistaken. (outside of the 455 auto).

Its roughly equivalent or a little behind old 45 colt/45 acp loadings. A 220-265 grain bullet between 600 and 700fps, depending on where it was intended to be fired from. The auto round was faster.

I believe the "manstopper" referred not to the cartridge itself, but a scooped out wadcutter type bullet/loading that was available for a while, which would expand when striking a target. I don't know if it earned that name or that is what it was called off the bat.

[Owen Sparks]

I once swaged some in .44 Special. The trick is that the bullet must be cupped on both ends or it will become tail heavy and tumble. Anyone who has ever tried to turn hollow base .38 wadcutters backwards knows this. They keyhole. Mine worked well and expand at low velocity but full bore cylinderical bullets are difficult to use with a speed loaders or moon clips.

[Jaymo]

I read an article in a 1070s Gun Digest or G&A annual (don't remember which) where the author loaded "upside down" HBWC bullets. In order to get them to not tumble/keyhole, he ended up swaging a buckshot pellet in the cavity.
I read it over 30 years ago. It was one of my dad's books. Don't ask me how I remember these things.
I also saw a 1911 with holly (the wood) grips, in one of the annuals, and have wanted holly grips ever since.

I just ordered holly grips for my RBH .44 spl.

I would say that "Manstopper" bullet is a cup-pointed hollow point, but that's more of a turkey fryer-pointed hollow point.
Flying ashcan, nothing. That's a flying soup can.

[Deaf Smith]

Plain old 255 gr LSWHP .45 Long Colt at 950 is plenty stopper for me.

Or 240 gr LSWHP .44 Spl. at 950.

And unlike the Brit version, these two above can be used well past 50 yards.

Deaf

[Jaymo]

Deaf, I'm with you on the .45 Colt and .44 Spl.

[rcmodel]

The auto round was faster.
And the old full power .45 Colt was 100 FPS faster then the .45 ACP auto, and heavier.

However speed isn't everything.

I'm here to tell you that getting hit in the boot heel by a .45 Colt 255 grain bullet bouncing off a railroad tie backstop 15 yards away made a believer out me about heavy and slow!!

It tore the leather heel off a good pair of boots and knocked the leg I was standing on mostly clear out from under me!!

A body hit from even that low speed bounch-back would have undoubtly "stopped" me for sure.

rc

[Jaymo]

Imagine a Lyman Devastator HP, cast in soft lead, fired from the .45 Colt or .44 Special. I have both molds and they are impressive boolits.

[.44 Associate]

In Double Gun Journal Spring of 2005 Ross Seyfried details the taking of an elk with a single .455 cartridge. I tend to accept that a .45 caliber hole on both sides is enough, regardless of the critter.

[Swing]

In Double Gun Journal Spring of 2005 Ross Seyfried details the taking of an elk with a single .455 cartridge.

Now that would be an interesting read. :D

[Jaymo]

.44 and .45 are my 2 favorite calibers. I used to want a Freedom Arms Casull.
Then I shot one. Now, I'm perfectly happy with .44 Spl and Mag, and .45 Colt.

[Gordon]

I have 250 rounds of Fiocchi .455 on hand of 400 I bought from a LGS that went out of business 17 years ago. I also have maybe 150 rounds of post WW2 .455 Kynoch banging around of the can I bought 26 years ago. The Fiocchi seems slightly hotter with it's lead 265 grain bullet versus the FMJ nickel colored Brit army loads. I have 2 Webleys and an old S&W Triple Lock chambered in .455 . If I remember the Fiocchi loads are close to 750 FPS in the Mark VI and the 6" Triple Lock , the British service loads about 700 FPS. In the 4" Mark V , which is my favorite , that is about 600 FPS for the Service Load and 650 for the Fiochi lead bullet. I really don't see any difference between these loads and the Cowboy Action loads for .45 Long Colt that are widely used (by me too !) today.I am sure they would rain on your days real quick to get hit with either.

[.44 Associate]

Now that would be an interesting read.

He usually is. The actually event, though, was kind of short on excitement. He stalked close, put a big hole through the on-side shoulder and both lungs of a 600 pound dry cow, and she ran off and then settled into the grass - just like they do when shot with the latest .300 magnum.

[Jaymo]

So, how IS Kynoch pronounced? I can think of at least 3 different ways.
KieNock?
Kinnick?
KeyNook?

I imagine getting shot with any .44 or .45 would ruin yer day.

[Certaindeaf]

Wasn't there like a .577 Tranter or something? Check this business out! Under the armpit would stop them best from what I heard.

http://www.firearmsmuseum.org.au/images/T2-090.jpg

[el Godfather]

Lots of people here are mentioning 44 and 45, size apart 455 is a different issue. How much energy does 455 dump upon impact and how does it measure up to the notion of being a MANSTOPPER compared to 9mm, 38s, or 45acp?

[Certaindeaf]

I think there was a .380/200 Manstopper also.. a .38 S&W cartridge propelling a 200 grain slug at around 650fps. It was said to tumble well and do better compared to the normal 158 grainer.

[Jim K]

The old 200 grain bullet load in the .38 S&W was called the Manstopper. The British, post WWI, were looking for a smaller and lighter revolver than the Mk VI and testing seemed to show that the .38/200 (as they called it) was as effective at short range as the .455. Probably true, as the .455 was pretty pitiful, but as things turned out, they wrote and talked a lot about the .38/200, and even called the round by that name, but never used it in combat. The Hague Convention forced them to go to a 178 grain jacketed bullet that was no better than the standard American .38 S&W loads.

It didn't much matter, since the revolver was considered a very secondary weapon. Ammunition issue in either caliber was a mere 12 rounds, with another 12 rounds in unit supply. That was considered perfectly adequate for a small dustup like WWII.

Jim

[rcmodel]

how does it measure up to the notion of being a MANSTOPPER compared to 9mm, 38s, or 45acp? Energy is a pretty meaningless comparison in handgun calibers.

Myself, if I had druthers and had to be shot?
I'd druthers be shot with a 9mm going 1100 than a .455 weighing more then twice as much going half as fast.

Momentum and the size of the hole will put you in the ground belly up.

As found to be true by the British in the Zulu wars, and the U.S. Army in the Philippines.


rc

[sandy1000]

I had a Webley .455 revolver in the 1970s in as new condition. I bought it from a reputable gunsmith and with it came a box of ammunition. I loaded it and fired at a metal house agents For Sale sign. I was very wary of having my wrist broken or my arm jerked out of its socket but what happened was that there was just a dull thwack of the pistol firing and a thud on the sign as the bullet bounced off leaving a small dent. Now maybe the ammunition was faulty or deliberately not up to the point where it would have been too modern for the gun to withstand the shock but I am inclined to think that these revolvers were not "Manstoppers" as much as you would think. But certainly in a brawl in a trench where you were trying to beat in the head of someone with the butt then that huge lanyard ring would have been very helpful. I bought it because I was new to the security industry and I only wanted the cheapest gun in the shop. It cost me $14.00. It bewildered all those guys swaggering around with their .357 magnums etc., and there would be an awed silence as I uncovered the Colonel Custer style holster and pulled out this huge piece of ironmongery with its fluted barrel and that great lanyard ring.I wish I had kept it, it really was something.

[Certaindeaf]

^
That was a pretty sweet write up. I've had plenty of slugs of various velocities bounce off/just dent auto bodies of various vintages.. was that sign aluminum or steel?. probably the former.

[Ratshooter]

I almost bought a S&W model 1917 a couple of years ago from a pawn shop that was chambered in .455. I passed on it because I couldn't find a source of ammo.

Since cupped nose bullets and HBWC bullets loaded backwards has been brought up I have a question for you.

In about 1986-1987 there was a Guns&Ammo article about the 38 Special being dead. That was the question. The article had a picture of a 38 round nose lead bullet with spider webs on it. The cartridge looked like it was turned out of wood so it could be scaled up with hollywood spider web.

In the article it showed some double hollow based wadcutter bullets. They expanded at 600fps and on up. The faster the speed the bigger the mushroom. And since both ends were hollow they were balanced and didn't tumble like the reversed WC loads I have tried.

I was never able to find any of these bullets. Has anyone ever seen any in 38 or any other size like a 44 or 45? If anyone has these old back issues and could look it up it would be appreciated. I think Tony Leske was the author. I even checked into getting dies made so I could swage my own but the $500 quote for the dies stopped me.

[Vern Humphrey]

Lots of people here are mentioning 44 and 45, size apart 455 is a different issue. How much energy does 455 dump upon impact and how does it measure up to the notion of being a MANSTOPPER compared to 9mm, 38s, or 45acp?
The .455 was virtually identical to the .45 Colt, but with a shorter case and thinner rim. There are a whole family of cartridges -- including .450 Colt -- that are virtually intechangeable. The .455 delivered a bullet similar to the .45 Colt, but 200 to 400 fps slower (depending on the Colt load.)

[Jim K]

The .450/.455 was part of the considerable number of large caliber revolver cartridges that followed the percusiion revolvers in military service. Among the others were the .45 Colt, the 10.6mm Italian, the .44 Russian, the 11mm German, 11mm French and 11.75 Gasser.

In the black powder days, bullet velocity could not be increased significantly because of the limitations of the propellant. For handguns, with a limited charge, that deficiency was even more marked. So the onlly way to achieve the desired degree of lethality was to increase the bullet weight. As powders improved, and smokeless powder was introduced, bullet velocity increased and lethality could be achieved with smaller and lighter bullets.

The same thing happened with rifles, so the U.S. went from the .69 musket, to the .58 musket, to the .45-70, to the .30 caliber, to the 5.56. Is the 5.56mm fired from an M4 really more deadly than a .69 ball out of a Model 1842? Maybe not, but it sure has less recoil and the M4 fires a lot faster.

Jim

[Owen Sparks]

I actually had Corbin make up some dies to swage some of these in .44 Special. The trick is that the hollow cavity must be on both ends of the bullet otherwise it will become tail heavy and keyhole. You can't just load a hollow base wadcutter backwards or it will tumble.

[StrawHat]

...so the U.S. went from the .69 musket, to the .58 musket, to the .45-70...


Jim, you forgot the 58 Rimfire and the 50-70. Both were responsible for the adoption of the flatter shooting 45-70.

[MagicD]

"In fact, is it a sufficiant SD caliber and size game can it take?"

One aspect of the .455 265 gr 650 fps round often not mentioned is it's very low recoil compared to modern 900 fps plus loads.
Very pleasant and very fast follow up shooting. Now I'm not really interested in using 100 yr old or older revolvers for SD,but it's not to be sneezed at, the penetration is formidable.A brace of these would serve in close combat on the 19th century dust ups with Zulus Dervishes etc.
I have had several including 1889 WG army models and loaded them with unique ...great fun.

[Kaeto]

I sometimes carry my .455 Webley as a SD gun. Mine has been cut for .45 ACP on moon clips, but I load .45 ACP and .45 auto rim to Webley pressures with a .454 RNFP lead slug. My Webley is a Mk VI made in 1926.

[sandy1000]

Re question previous page I think the sign was tinplate but it was so long ago I can't recall.

[Gordon]

Low velocity ammo does bounce off sheet steel, it doesn't in flesh or hide tho.No body mentions the .455 performance in the La Guardia tests, geez I'm showing my age !

[sandy1000]

168614

Little girl, big gun. The .455 Webley in question.

[Jaymo]

Owen Sparks, would you be willing to make and sell any of those double-hollow wadcutters?
I'd love to load a bunch of them in .44 Special.

[sandy1000]

One aspect of the .455 265 gr 650 fps round often not mentioned is it's very low recoil compared to modern 900 fps plus loads.
Very pleasant and very fast follow up shooting. Now I'm not really interested in using 100 yr old or older revolvers for SD,but it's not to be sneezed at, the penetration is formidable.A brace of these would serve in close combat on the 19th century dust ups with Zulus Dervishes etc.
I have had several including 1889 WG army models and loaded them with unique ...great fun.

Your imagery conjures up a scene where a steadily diminishing thin line of redcoats are stoically banging away with their Snider- Enfields or would it be Martini-Henrys at an approaching horde of Zulus and just as the line is broken by a bunch of giant warriors getting into their midst some pink cheeked 19 year old Second Lieutenant turns up with a Webley in each hand, 12 shots and stabilises the situation, probably handing over his pistols to the trembling hands of his manservant to reload, while he picks up a rifle with its fixed bayonet to help out in the meantime. The key element or requirement in this situation would be the need for total reliability or trustworthiness in the Webleys and I guess this is what you got with this weapon. Ah well, now back to my day dreaming. - I won't inflict any more of this on you.

[mackg]

The original bullet was obviously lacking for defense against natives, as the MkIII Manstopper was created. That's the old problem of RN's penetrating without shocking.

Now my concern with WC and SWC bullets is the timing of the gun.
The few Webley and New Service revolvers I have owned or seen wouldn't index properly in DA and often not even in Single Action.
The hammer being released before the cylinder could lock, the bullets would hit the back of the barrel before wacking the cylinder locked and settling in the bore.

The standard RN bullet with a hollow point would make more sense to me. At least, the ogive should catch the forcing cone without hitting the barrel's end.


There's a good piece on the caliber here: http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

[Vern Humphrey]

I can't speak for Webleys, but my Colt New Service is in perfect time.

[Kaeto]

My Webley has no timing problems.

[MagicD]

" The original bullet was obviously lacking for defense against natives, as the MkIII Manstopper was created. That's the old problem of RN's penetrating without shocking.".

I'm not sure that is the real story. The .455 was used in its round nosed form effectively in " The Great War" against the nefarious Hun.
The man stopper saw little if any real use.

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm not sure that is the real story. The .455 was used in its round nosed form effectively in " The Great War" against the nefarious Hun.
The man stopper saw little if any real use.
The "Manstopper," regardless of its effectiveness or lack thereof was banned by the Hague Convention of 1899, and could not be used in warfare.

[makkitty]

The "manstopper", as said earlier, was a low profile wadcutter, which was actually banned by the military.

Look up Dum Dum bullets if you want more info. It was an alteration made to Webley's .455 at the Dum Dum arsenal in India. If a soldier was caught with some by the enemy in WWI or WWII they were put to death. They were considered inhumane.

*cough* What Vern said. I read gud. >.>

[Lone Star]

To answer the original question, the MK III (HP) and MK IV (solid wadcutter) .455 ammo were termed "manstoppers: because they were designed to stop fanatical tribesmen about where we're again fighting in Afghanistan.

They were supposedly very effective, but I think were issued mainly in India and other remote parts of the Empire. I believe that by WW I, only the MK II normal load was issued to fight the war against Germany. It was quite effective at close range.

Because Germany complained about all lead bullets before WW II, all .455 ammo issued for combat in WW II was the MK VI, a FMJ bullet otherwise like the MK II.

[NG VI]

After all it was called the man stopper at one time? BTW why was it called that?


Advertising.

[tipoc]

I encourage folks to drop by here for some more info on the 455 rounds. No doubt one reason the Her Majesty's Empire collapsed was their cinfusing military ordnance nomenclature.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/3053/455-Manstopper-bullet-specs#.UFiouK4sCSo

Anyway, as others have said the .455 "Manstopper" round was simply a big lead hollowpoint bullet, cupped at both ends so it had some small stability in flight. The 218-255 gr., or so, round went about 600-700 fps (in that range). The British believed in big and quite slow.

At the time the British developed it they were going through a period where they were obsessed with stopping power (or so some authors state) and the big hollowpoint was a part of that trend.

The bullet did not earn the title Manstopper it was given it by it's makers, Ely I believe. The round never saw service that I've heard of. Introduced in 1898 or so it was removed in 1900 or so as violating the Hague Convention. (Or to look at it as it was, the colonialists and imperialists signed a treaty between them outlawing ammo a couple of years after smokeless powder rendered big bore lead bullets at moderate velocity of any type useless as military rounds.)

The "Manstopper" was tried in the Thompson LeGrande tests but passed on as not as effective as the 45 Colt.

It's kind of interesting that when the British moved from the 455 loads they eventually went to the 380/200 which was a 200 gr. bullet in the 38 S&W cartridge (not the 38 Spl.!) which went about 650 fps or so. They claimed it worked as well as the "Manstopper", at least in shocking power.

Here an old thread on this...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80187



tipoc

[cpileri]

Now THAT's the one I want!

Wasn't there like a .577 Tranter or something? Check this business out! Under the armpit would stop them best from what I heard.

[Pistolosaur]

Hello,
I recently came across a 1915 .455 Webley Mk VI.
The manstopper is 'unbutchered' and in perfect condition under general inspection.
As I'm a shooter rather than a collector, I'll only buy it if I can safely use it. I mean safely for me and for that old gun that deserves respect.
I read about .455 Webley to .45 ACP conversion and I won't go that way, so may I ask you the following :

1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?
2. there are several .455 cartridges, is the one I should look for the Mk II ?
3. factory MkII's are unavailable and I have plenty of 45Colt brass, so I'll convert some. I'd like to hear advices about this part I'm not familiar with.
4. I don't have no furnace and don't plan to get one, so I'm likely to buy factory bullets. Is it true I should avoid any kind of jacketted bullets ?

Thank you for your advices.

[Kaeto]

1 : I shoot a 1926 Mk VI and even keep it beside my bed as my home defense gun.

2 : Yes

3 : Fiocci makes factory Mk II ammo, and Cabelas sells it. But it's not cheap.

4 : Using lead only will cut down on the wear to the rifling.

[Pistolosaur]

Thank you for your help Kaeto.
I've been looking around and it seems like there's a general shortage for a year or so on .455 MkII.
I usually use .452 HB copper platted bullets in my 1911. What do you think about using them in the Webley ?

[Kaeto]

They are a bit small in diameter. In my handloads I use a .454 dia. lead slug.
Either these
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hornady_452_255_Grain_FP_Cowboy_Swaged_Bullets_it-159757.aspx?CAT=4144

or the .454 Webley ones from here
http://www.alphabravobullets.com/products/shop.php?exp=&cat=4

[56hawk]

1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?
2. there are several .455 cartridges, is the one I should look for the Mk II ?
3. factory MkII's are unavailable and I have plenty of 45Colt brass, so I'll convert some. I'd like to hear advices about this part I'm not familiar with.
4. I don't have no furnace and don't plan to get one, so I'm likely to buy factory bullets. Is it true I should avoid any kind of jacketted bullets ?


1. Yep, do it all the time.

2. Mk II is standard.

3. I use new Hornady brass: http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=17236&cat=0&bestseller=Y

4. Not sure it makes that much difference, but lead is cheaper so that's what I use.

[MagicD]

As I'm a shooter rather than a collector, I'll only buy it if I can safely use it. I mean safely for me and for that old gun that deserves respect.
I read about .455 Webley to .45 ACP conversion and I won't go that way, so may I ask you the following :

1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?


Yep but caution advised ....
I have shot hundreds of rounds through a Webley Mark I, yes its the 19th century black powder first version....Recipes for hand loads are about 60-65% .45 ACP load with powder(usually Unique) topped with either soft .452 or .454 lead rd. nose 220 -255 gr,
Penetration of metal be damned ..ya dont wanna be on the receiving end

[Schneider]

It's kind of interesting that when the British moved from the 455 loads they eventually went to the 380/200 which was a 200 gr. bullet in the 38 S&W cartridge (not the 38 Spl.!) which went about 650 fps or so. They claimed it worked as well as the "Manstopper", at least in shocking power.

One "louisianaman" has well documented the considerable penetrative power of the heavy-bullet .38 S&W: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=75914

He has similar threads running on other fora, too.

Cause, I say, for a serious re-consideration of those "anemic" rounds of yesteryear.

[just for fun]

Deaf, were you using unique to get your 950 # with a 240 gr. bullet?

[Pistolosaur]

It seems like all signs are green for launch.
You helped a lot making the decision, so thank you again !