[Skribs]

I've been looking at potentially getting a reflex sight for some of my pistols down the road (read: when I can afford it), but I was just thinking - why do I not want a laser? I had an answer for that question years ago, when I started looking, but I don't seem to have that answer now.

From what I can tell, both have similar advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is faster target aquisition, the disadvantage is the reliance on batteries (unless a tritium/FO option is used). I think a laser would be faster, but if I rely on the laser and it fails it will take me longer to get a sight picture - if I have a reflex with cowitness and the reflex fails, I just switch real quick to the front sight. I also know there are reflex sights that can be left on for years without killing the battery, and others that use Tritium/FO and require no batteries, while a laser isn't going to last that long while on (meaning range trips = batteries as well).

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but what do you guys think? Especially people who have used both in the past. I could also use some advice on how you use a laser - i.e. do you just put the red dot on the target ASAO, or do you still go for the stance and just use the laser to ease in the aiming process? My specific application is for SD/HD.

[wally]

If you only shoot at night a laser might be fine, but in daylight it varies from really hard to impossible to see the dot depending on where the sun is.

IMHO the best use of a laser is for dry fire practice so the cheapest you can clamp on your gun is fine.

I do have some Crimson Trace laser grips on a couple of carry pistols, they do offer a few options in some rather unlikely scenarios. At least they are unobtrusive.

I have tried the laser sight vs a red dot optic shooting steel plates on one of those somewhat rare days when its overcast enough to actually see the laser on the plates. I'm way faster with the red dot as its too hard to find the laser if its not on the plate when going for the next one.

[WardenWolf]

Short answer: because if you keep the laser on it gives away your position to every man and his dog. I'm just not a fan of something that would be visible to your opponent as well as you.

[Skribs]

Short answer: because if you keep the laser on it gives away your position to every man and his dog. I'm just not a fan of something that would be visible to your opponent as well as you.

I was thinking about this, but at night I'd be using a flashlight for target identification anyway. In the day, they're going to figure out my position real quick, because it's either on the street and I'm already on the defensive, or its in my condo and you can see me from the door. Now that I think about it, I think your reasoning is the same reasoning I had a while back.

Wally, I don't do much shooting from a distance, but you bring up a good point. If the laser isn't on target outside, I would still need to get close to a sight picture to bring the laser on target. I was specifically thinking about Crimson Trace.

[SharpsDressedMan]

For a short period of time, I owned some PVS-7 goggles, and had an infrared laser and Trijicon Reflex mounted on an AR (.300 Whisper). What a night gun! After running into power problems in extreme cold, and having the laser die down in sub zero cold, I had to rely on the Reflex. I found that if I held the gun centered to my body, and kind of looked over the Reflex sight (not directly through it), it sort of superimposed the red dot on the target, and I was able to quickly tag targets 10-100 yards in total darkness, and with a little more time, could make hits on silhouettes at 200 or more. Then it occurred to me that when using the laser, I could be targeted by anyone with night vision. With just the Reflex, I was not signalling my position. Fast, combat accurate, operational in extreme cold, and doesn't give away your positon like a laser. Gotta love the Reflex. No need for batteries, cold or hot.

[X-Rap]

I have a laser on my house gun (a G22) and a couple Reflex sights on AR's and I can say that when my coffers refill some I am opting for a reflex on my G19 that I carry. Reason being that the laser is really tough to see in the daylight and in an away from home situation the reflex will allow better target acquisition in more situations than the laser plus daylight shots at much further distances will be possible though doubtfully ever needed. I think both systems have their place as well as standard sights but if I had to chose just one configuration it would probably be the reflex with high tritium night sights as a backup over the laser and night sights.

[labhound]

I have a Viridian C5L laser/light on my Stoeger Cougar 8045 that I mainly use for home defense, specifically at night. The only time I use it outside is shooting at my range in the evenings. As far as target acquisition, I point the gun at the target just like I was using the iron sights and the laser dot falls right on the target.

[GLOOB]

but I was just thinking - why do I not want a laser? I had an answer for that question years ago, when I started looking, but I don't seem to have that answer now.
I guess you forgot how useless a laser is in strong sunlight, or at any distance beyond 5 yards of where it's zeroed, or for trying to keep shots in the vicinity of any small or moving object.

[Skribs]

You guys are making it sound like a reflex is the better option, for reasons other than came to mind when I wrote the OP.

[GLOOB]

I was specifically thinking about Crimson Trace.
There's another two reasons to not get a laser. Weak beam and lateral parallax. My friend has Crimson Trace grips on a MkIII. Since sighting it in, he's turned the thing on exactly twice. This is exactly what I expected, but he was very disappointed. It's to the point where we don't even remember it's there when we shoot it.

[X-Rap]

Mine is a Laser Max that replaces the guide rod, on the Glock the switch is very convenient, it isn't adjustable but it does work well and shoots to point of aim but i sunlight it is worthless. I have shot at twilight and was happy with the results especially since it is my house gun. The laser at night is visible for a great distance, far beyond any possible reason to shoot in the dark.
My dad has a couple guns with Crimson Trace grips but my shooting suffers when I put pressure on the switch to activate the beam. The Laser Max turns on and I don't have to keep pressure on it to stay on.

[Skribs]

Ah, didn't realize you had to keep pressure. The literature says it works with your combat grip. I assumed it was like the XDm grip safety ;)

Definitely turned off from the laser, now.

[X-Rap]

They do not all require constant presure, the laser light combos that mount on the guns rails (if equiped) and as I said the type that replace the guide rod.
The best for both home defense and carry would probably be the reflex for daily carry and a light laser combo on the rail for when the sun goes down at the Casa.
If we are talking about just one gun.

[Skribs]

If I have a reflex, why do I need the lazer? I'd just add the light.

[rcmodel]

If you have a reflex sight you don't need a laser.
If you ever plan to shoot the gun outdoors in broad daylight, you don't need the laser either because you can't see the dot.

If your primary need is SD/HD as stated, you don't need either a reflex or a laser.

A reflex is just something else to have to turn on and fiddle with when something goes bump in the night.
And you don't have time to turn it on and adjust it before you can use it.

Buy a real good tactical flashlight so you can see what you are going to shoot, and use the open sights.

rc

[Skribs]

Rc, you don't have to turn on a tritium/fiber-optic reflex sight. There are also sights that you can leave on without worrying about the battery, because it will last for years (may have to adjust in bright daylight, but you can leave it on).

Also, you can cowitness irons with the reflex, so you're not losing the functionality of the irons.

[rcmodel]

I am aware of that.

You do have to replace the $1000 tritium sight every 12 years or so when the radioactive tritium half-life is over though.

All I was saying is, you win gunfights with training, iron sights, & flashlights when it's dark.

Not fancy high dollar gadgets bolted to a pistol.

But it is really none of my business what you want to clamp on your gun.

Over & out!

rc

[DefiantDad]

Trijicon RMR. ALWAYS ON. Always on for a whole year or two. Other reflex sights might work the same. Dual power means battery power (for night) and fiber optic during day time.

You just pick it up, and where the dot goes, that is where the bullets fly (for a zeroed range). No need to fumble with lasers.

I have both, and I can't see myself using the laser for a real threat, but I think the red dot would be very useful. I think I might have wasted a few hundred bucks on lasers, but they (I have 2 of them) have the flashlight attached.

I would HIGHLY recommend a quality red dot, and THEN you can decide if you want to get a laser.

By the way, when you aim the gun, the red dot is the one that lets you aim normally (like with iron sights) but the laser gives you a false sense of holding the gun right (if you are holding it right, the way you usually train, probably your red dot or front sight would be on target anyway.) I think it would not be realistic to shoot from the hip with the laser. At least at the range, my shots do NOT go where the laser falls, simply because it is not how I train. I guess you could train to hold the gun at the hip and shoot with the laser, but all my points above apply (you have to fumble to turn it on, in an emergency).

[DefiantDad]

BTW the weapon lights using those fancy 123 batteries, might actually just give you 1 hour of flashlight power. Just sayin'

[Skribs]

You do have to replace the $1000 tritium sight every 12 years or so when the radioactive tritium half-life is over though.

All I was saying is, you win gunfights with training, iron sights, & flashlights when it's dark.

You might have to replace it after 12 years, but it's not going to be $1000. You can get a RMR for half that. And, there are other options which have a very long battery life, and all you have to do is replace a battery every couple years.

Ironsights aren't what win the fight. Ironsights are a sight that's available. Optics have their downside (size, tritium decay or battery life), but if used properly offer advantages over irons in terms of target aquisition. I'll take training + gadgets over just training. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[X-Rap]

For me the only laser I have came with the gun so I use it. It is not complicated and the switch is very simple and doesn't detract from my grip. If it were like others I have used it would be sold and on someone elses gun.
I have to say that after using reflex and holograph sights on a couple rifles compared to stock open sights I would certainly give the edge to the guy with the reflex or holograph with all things being equal, add the fact that on the pistol set up we are speaking of you retain the iron sights so I see little to lose.
While it's true that you can't gadget yourself to competence or mastery of anything those same gadgets if of good quality are making competent people more lethal every day.

[JustinJ]

Lasers can actually be much slower if its not sufficiently dark as it can be hard to find the dot. The main advantage of a laser is it allows aiming from essentially any position and the potential psychological effect. I really like a reflex on a handgun. It is incredibly fast and a good one will work in any lighting conditions.

[Greg528iT]

I looked at the CT grip laser.. passed as I wanted a nice wood grip.

I put a Burris Fast Fire on my 5" 1911 Springer. I love it. While it does have an on off switch, word is, that the batteries will last years in the ON position. The battery is cheap, Cheap enough to replace annually if I want. someday, I'd like to melt it into the slide so I can co witness the sights and dot.

[ForumSurfer]

The advantage is faster target aquisition

Nope, the laser is slower than conventional sights.

My opinion on reflex sights on pistols changed after running one. My only dislike is the reliance on batteries or possibly having a unit that requires you to activate it. Well that and even the small footprint units are still a large item to mount on top of a slide if you're going to ccw with it. I'd really love to sample one of the trijicon rmr battery-free units. The price isn't that bad, you should definitely look into it and tell me what you think once you buy one. :)

[Skribs]

I'm actually wondering when the milled slide will become factory standard over a custom option. I understand there's the FNX 45 Tactical, but that adds about $400 to the price tag and isn't worth $400 for what benefits you get (IMO). Especially if it comes from the factory, it should be cheaper than a handgun + custom work if you ask me.

[ForumSurfer]

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but what do you guys think? Especially people who have used both in the past. I could also use some advice on how you use a laser - i.e. do you just put the red dot on the target ASAO, or do you still go for the stance and just use the laser to ease in the aiming process? My specific application is for SD/HD.

I sight my laser in to be the same reference point at 15 yards as my front sight. The front sight mostly obscures it if I'm shooting from a proper sighted fire position. That way whatever distance I'm shooting, I know that the laser is more or less the same reference point as my front sight (although not quite due to the offset of the laser mounting position). Overall, not something I care to depend on. I spend more time trying to find that red dot than I would acquiring a sight picture. If I'm shooting from retention, the laser does have a good benefit there...but shooting from retention is meant to be done when there is no time for sighted fire, so should I depend on a laser or spend time shooting from retention at 5 yards so I feel 100% comfortable hitting a humanoid target at close range? It has some nice benefits, but you'll need to train as if the laser weren't there so that the laser is simply a "just in case" item. The potential negatives outweigh the potential positives IMO. A good laser is going to cost around $100+. I think that $100+ would be better served as ammo money and practicing point shooting or firing from position 2 of the 4 count draw. For the price of a set of crimson trace grips, I can have a class and ammo for it. That will offer shooters who haven't taken a class more benefit than the laser by a long shot.

IMHO the best use of a laser is for dry fire practice so the cheapest you can clamp on your gun is fine.

I agree.

[ny32182]

Laser is completely, totally useless for anything other than possibly dryfire practice specifically focusing on trigger control.

Reflex/red dot is the world standard for anyone who wants a fast, 1x optical sight.

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally I think irons are just fine in the interim.

[X-Rap]

I wonder what the cost would be if you took the specs for the dovetail to a machine shop and just had them do it rather than a custom gun shop? I guess I'm talking about the same guy you would take a shaft for your tractor to that does quality precision work at blue collar by the hr prices. The cut seems pretty basic.
The ones I have seen look like they add $800-$1000 dollars over the price of the reflex and high profile irons. Maybe I am wrong but it seems the parts could be had for 6-7 hundred and the guns are available all day long for $350-$450.
To me the additional 5-6 hundred to cut and assemble seems high. I guess I need to explore this more, maybe I am way off base in my thinking?

[ForumSurfer]

I'm actually wondering when the milled slide will become factory standard over a custom option.

When pigs fly probably. :)

There just isn't enough interest out there. Even if it did become a possibility, it would probably only happen on models that are generally used in IPSC or IDPA.

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally I think irons are just fine in the interim.

The problem is the real estate that it takes up. I can comfortable carry a glock 19/26 appendix carry indefinitely. With a reflex sight on it, it is no longer comfortable at all. If you carry at 3:30 to 4:30 IWB, you wear +2 size pants and you wear a loose fitting cover garment; that reflex sight isn't too much of a bother. As it is, I don't fit into that genre most days.

[basicblur]

BTW the weapon lights using those fancy 123 batteries...
CR123's are no longer "fancy" (if they ever were). If you compare apples to apples, CR123's are as cheap (or cheaper) than Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA's, etc.

I run lithium batteries in all my high tech toys since my understanding is they don't vent and are not supposed to leak. The days of tossing something like a cheap flashlight because leaking batteries made a mess of it are over - ain't gonna be no tossing of expensive gadgets (and don't want the hassle of repair) caused by leaking alkalines, etc.

I have one EOTech that takes a CR123, and I have one that takes AA batteries. I run Eveready Ultimate Lithiums in the one that takes AA batteries - the CR123's are cheaper than the Ultimate Lithium AA's.

Folks complain 'bout the price of CR123's, but you often find they're talking compared to alkalines - when you compare apples to apples, CR123's are not as much hassle / cost as folks still believe.

CR123's are expensive if you buy them in the photo section (around $5 each), cheaper at Lowe's in the flashlight section ($2.50 each, and now we're in Ultimate Lithium price range), and if you buy in bulk (I and some friends do), they run around $1.35 each (delivered) for name brand.

[Skribs]

I think there's a general push towards reflex sights, but most people don't want them because they require custom work. I don't really consider something that simply involves replacing a part and maybe polishing the new part (i.e. trigger kit, night sights) to be "custom work", and those services are much more readily available. I think if it didn't require shipping, waiting, and paying out $200+ to have the gun milled, a lot more people would be open to it.

I carry at about 8:30 (southpaw), and I would have absolutely no problem with a red dot.

[ForumSurfer]

I think there's a general push towards reflex sights, but most people don't want them because they require custom work. I don't really consider something that simply involves replacing a part and maybe polishing the new part (i.e. trigger kit, night sights) to be "custom work", and those services are much more readily available. I think if it didn't require shipping, waiting, and paying out $200+ to have the gun milled, a lot more people would be open to it.

My problem is the overall price of what I need to do to make it happen.

Trijicon RMR, battery free or battery dependent option...$500+
Mill work: Less than $100, figure $150+ on the high side with a refinish.
Skip the mill work and get a dovetail mount (extremely high IMO): free.

So we're looking at $500-$700 minimum investment for an RMR. I don't have an unlimited budget for my disposable income. If I look at it rationally, $600 in ammo and a 5-day course will make me a better shooter that the sight ever will...unless I take the same course with the sight. If I look at it from the perspective that I just want it, I have to "just want it" more than the other things I'm wanting to get involved in (600+ yard shooting, reloading, gear for 3 gun matches...)

[Skribs]

For me, Forumsurfer, it's not so much about the price, although the shops I've found online are charging a lot more for the work than just $100. It's about the fact that I'd have to take my gun and send it for custom work, which could be months before I get it back from some of the reviews I've read.

There are options coming out that are $200-300 (or less), but I agree it is an investment.

[X-Rap]

If I ever take the leap to the RMR it won't be for the either/or option, I still value the irons simply because damage to the reflex if it has taken the place of your rear sight will leave you with none. There is a premium to be paid for both but when I pull the trigger that's what I want.
Might be a while and I might go with something like the Burris in an existing dovetail for practice but my long term goal for my carry gun would be the dual sighting option but cost at this time is a factor and I too have to many wants. ($650 fish finder I just bought cleaned out my toy fund for a while)

[Skribs]

I'm with you on cowitness, X-Rap. Some people who do slide milling will also put a line on the RMR to use it as the rear sight should the lens fail. Even so, I'd rather have front and rear irons and the option to place a plate on the milled portion if I decide to switch back to factory irons...like with the FNX tactical.

[GLOOB]

The laser falls short because in most SD encounters, the shooters don't score 100% good hits. More like 30%. Having a laser won't magically turn that to 100%. Your adrenaline will be up and the other guy is going to try to avoid being shot. Would you rather see a flash sight picture good enough to get a pretty good shot off at a pretty good point in time, or try to watch for a glimpse of a red spec jumping on/off your intended target for a 10th of a second at a time and hope that when you squeeze the trigger the dot is still where you wanted it to be and that you don't jerk the trigger?

I would personally prefer reflex >> night sights >> regular sights >> laser.

[DefiantDad]

CR123's are no longer "fancy" (if they ever were). If you compare apples to apples, CR123's are as cheap (or cheaper) than Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA's, etc.

I run lithium batteries in all my high tech toys since my understanding is they don't vent and are not supposed to leak. The days of tossing something like a cheap flashlight because leaking batteries made a mess of it are over - ain't gonna be no tossing of expensive gadgets (and don't want the hassle of repair) caused by leaking alkalines, etc.

I have one EOTech that takes a CR123, and I have one that takes AA batteries. I run Eveready Ultimate Lithiums in the one that takes AA batteries - the CR123's are cheaper than the Ultimate Lithium AA's.

Folks complain 'bout the price of CR123's, but you often find they're talking compared to alkalines - when you compare apples to apples, CR123's are not as much hassle / cost as folks still believe.

CR123's are expensive if you buy them in the photo section (around $5 each), cheaper at Lowe's in the flashlight section ($2.50 each, and now we're in Ultimate Lithium price range), and if you buy in bulk (I and some friends do), they run around $1.35 each (delivered) for name brand.
I agree with all the points you raised, expect that I still find the 123 batteries to be less ubiquitous. I look at it like caliber. Now I have to worry about stocking the 123 batteries in addition to AA. And that goes with the entire support structure (recharging). I don't have rechargeable 123s right now but am considering it. I did buy bulk boxes of 123 so I have enough to last a few years I reckon. But still, it would be better if I could just consolidate everything on AA batteries (lithium, rechargeable, etc). Anyway, this is a side note to the main thread topic (but not entirely irrelevant).

[DefiantDad]

For me, Forumsurfer, it's not so much about the price, although the shops I've found online are charging a lot more for the work than just $100. It's about the fact that I'd have to take my gun and send it for custom work, which could be months before I get it back from some of the reviews I've read.

There are options coming out that are $200-300 (or less), but I agree it is an investment.
Sending the slide in to get it milled is exactly why I have not done it yet. In fact I was asking around for prices for a spare slide, and to see if any shop will buy the spare slide for me, mill it, and send it to me, then I won't be out of a working gun. Or one less gun (I have two 9mms). And I wanted to get a spare slide and barrel eventually anyway. But nobody has given me any quotes on this (not that I was trying real hard).

[DefiantDad]

The laser falls short because in most SD encounters, the shooters don't score 100% good hits. More like 30%. Having a laser won't magically turn that to 100%. Your adrenaline will be up and the other guy is going to try to avoid being shot. Would you rather see a flash sight picture good enough to get a pretty good shot off at a pretty good point in time, or try to watch for a glimpse of a red spec jumping on/off your intended target for a 10th of a second at a time and hope that when you squeeze the trigger the dot is still where you wanted it to be and that you don't jerk the trigger?

I would personally prefer reflex >> night sights >> regular sights >> laser.
If you see a laser on you, you are probably going to squirm and dodge, so IMHO I think a laser sight can detract from your hit rate on a threat. In my imagination, I would think a laser aiming device would be only useful in a "fast and furious" CQB firefight where everyone is running around trying to shoot the other guys faster, and so you have nothing to lose already (you have no cover or concealment) and you are running carbines and not pistols. Like I said, I feel I got suckered into buying the laser devices from watching the movies, and if I had to do it all over again I would not buy any lasers.

[Skribs]

Glad to see I'm not alone, Defiant.

I don't think the average BG is going to see a laser on him when his attention is on me, though.

[DefiantDad]

True but with some dust in the way, the eye can readily notice the SOURCE of a laser beam.

In fact, let's be clear, a reflex red dot will ALSO be visible from a distance, if the target is looking at the shooter at the right angle. That is the physics of the REFLEX sight. I am not sure if a holographic will be the same. I tried holo sights at the LGS but did not like the recticles I tried (EOTech as I recall) so went for the RMR.

[basicblur]

Jest sitting here trying to figure out where all this fascination with reflex sights has come from, ‘specially for HD…video games, advertisers, somebody’s gun guru pushing ‘em (some of ‘em also push lasers)?

It sure looks to me like:
1. A lot more theory than reality / practicality being tossed about.
2. Chances are if you have a laser dot on you you’re going to be squirming and dodging.
Mebbe…but chances equally are the BG might also think since you have him in your sights, it’s time to give it up. Trying to get into a BG’s mind to predict what he’s thinking or how he’s going to react is pretty much an academic exercise - BG’s are like a box of chocolates…
3. AFA lasers, sounds like some folks are looking for the dot – I think you’ll find if you look for the target, the dot’s gonna follow.
4. As usual, a lot of folks are only looking at one side of an argument when it comes to their preference – everything’s a compromise – pick yur poison.

What appears to me to be a sudden interest in reflex sights I fully expect to soon go the way of light triggers, lasers, (insert your favorite flavor of the month here), or until something new and of questionable worth for a particular situation (but making money for someone) comes along.

[DefiantDad]

I guess what I am also saying is that plain old iron sights (maybe with night sights; which I don't have) may be superior to both reflex (and definitely laser) in fast acquisition versus not being acquired (that quickly) by the other guy. I am a total newbie with this gun stuff, but this is what I've deduced so far. Having said that, for my purposes right now, I would prefer to have a reflex red dot for my guns, if I had to use them for defense right now, and maybe that opinion will change later if I get to be more proficient with only iron sights (and night sights). Just my 2 cents from my perspective (literally haha).

[Skribs]

Basicblur, it's the fact that a reflex sight doesn't have to be exactly lined up in order to tell you what you're going to hit. Instead of lining up the front dot between the two rear dots, you can just put the red dot on target and pull the trigger. The dot moves within the reflex sight so if you're not looking directly at it, the dot moves to show you where the real point of aim will be. Faster target aquisition = faster hits on target.

It's not because its in video games, or because the military uses it (that's why its in video games), or because some manufacturer's are pushing it - it's because when people try it, they realize it works. It's also a lot easier to use a reflex sight with both eyes open than irons, which aids in situational awareness.

Defiant, it sounds to me like you're talking about combat at this point. A self defense shooter is already acquired by the attacker. Whether or not you're spotted is irrelevant, whether or not you can shoot first is what is important.

[basicblur]

Basicblur, it's the fact that a reflex sight doesn't have to be exactly lined up in order to tell you what you're going to hit.
I'm a long time owner of a couple of EOTechs-I understand how they work.
I just don't understand this fascination with 'em on handguns.

It's also a lot easier to use a reflex sight with both eyes open than irons, which aids in situational awareness.
Not everybody has much luck with both eyes open (unless they're using a laser).
Try being cross-dominant, with the added bonus of the dominant eye changing from day to day due to varying eye pressure...now try shooting with both eyes open!

A self defense shooter is already acquired by the attacker.
Again, everyone wants to script the perfect scenario to fit their beliefs - who says the attacker has already acquired the shooter? 'Spose you're dealing with a home break-in...you could very well acquire the attacker before he does you.

[DefiantDad]

Skribs - you're right, for the laser scenario I am thinking about a combat situation.

The finer point on this is, in a CQB, everyone EXPECTS the other guy to shoot first. So the rules of engagement are simply you try to shoot the other guy first.

In personal defense, you might not be 100% sure the other guy IS going to shoot you. If you acquire the bad guy before he acquires you, then that is not necessarily an IMMINENT THREAT and I do not believe you can be justified to "snipe" him. Of course, unless the bad guy(s) already killed everyone in the household and you have very good justification to believe he/they are just out to kill you as well (e.g., active shooter).

Just pondering: If you have a laser on him, that might make him/her/they react reflexively (e.g., either they scramble out of the way, or they freak out and pull their trigger on you hoping to do so BEFORE YOU CAN PULL YOUR TRIGGER since they figure you got a laser on them already and the next step is shooting, and they have nothing to lose).

This is all theoretical anyway. The most important thing goes back to how quickly can you acquire a target using a laser versus reflex versus iron sights. In fact, now that I think about it, it's possible that for some people, laser is faster, just because of how they train and how their brains react to stimuli. So, that's the qualifier, but again, in my personal opinion, for your purposes, I would say I'd pick a reflex red dot over a laser device, but would focus training more on plain old iron sights so that I do not have to depend on either. I am saying this for my own benefit also, rather than lecturing anyone, because that is what I intend to do.

Further thoughts on that are, if you milled the RMR onto your slide, then that would prevent you from training only with iron sights (unlike, say, mounting a co-witnessed reflex on a rifle).

[Skribs]

If he has a weapon out and is actively pursuing me or inside my home, I don't have to wait to see how he reacts to me drawing. Whether or not I have a red dot is not going to affect what the attacker does, but it will affect how fast I can react.

There are also glare reducers that make it so you don't have as much glare on the front of the sight.

Having the RMR wouldn't prevent you from training with irons - you just line up the irons like you normally would.

[TimboKhan]

It's just my opinion, but I think learning how to effectively use the irons will be far more beneficial in the long run than slapping either a red dot or a laser on.

To my way of thinking, your just adding an unnecessary level of potential failure. I know the RMR gets rave reviews. I know all the wonderful advantages of battery life, and I know they work well in competion and stuff, but competition and real life are two entirely different things. Irons on a pistol are unlikely to fail.

And look, if you want faster target acquisition, something like the XS express sight is pretty good, and also cheaper. You give up gilt edge accuracy, but you also have a big dot to index on and I can assure you that they are excellent combat sights. I like red dots on rifles, because they make a lot of sense and are much more intuitive to use. On a pistol though, I think they are a solution looking for a problem. Additionally, and this is extremely important, red dots and/or lasers and/or lights on a pistol (or any firearm) are in no way, shape or form a good substitute for trigger time. Competition shooters shoot fast with them because they shoot a ton, not because they are magic.

A RMR costs roughly $550, and you can buy around 2000 rounds of 9mm for that (for example). Truthfully, that 2000 rounds of trigger time is going to pay off way, way more than a RMR will. Confidence you earn shooting is far more valuable than confidence you get from a gadget. I say that because you say this:

but it will affect how fast I can react

No, it won't, and if you don't train hard with it, your actually going to be significantly slowed down by it, because your going to be searching for the dot. If you shoot and shoot and shoot and train correctly and with purpose, yes. But, if you do all that, your going to be just as good with iron sights.

[Skribs]

Why do people assume that adding optics and training are mutually exclusive? It always comes up with hardware issues "it doesn't beat training." Well, how about training + hardware vs. just training?

What I meant by improving my reaction time, is it improves the time from when I notice the problem to when I can accurately place shots on target. Yes, it might not be as fast as red dot on a rifle, but irons on a pistol are slower than irons on a rifle. And, like I said - you can cowitness irons. So it's not like I'm only relying on the red dot.

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

Perhaps you should check out a "sightless shooting " class ? I bet with a little practice you will be able to have 2 -5 shots on target in the same time it would take you to aquire the laser ! Laser can be a good training aid but I would rather practice a skill that only requires that I have a functional firearm ! Kevin

[JohnBiltz]

After reading this I'm puzzled. Why do people think combat experience with red dots is theoretical? We have been fighting with red dots for eight years in Iraq and Afghanistan. My prediction is in 30 years there will be no iron sights except for cowboy shooters. They are already back up systems only for serious military forces. Writings on the wall.

[Skribs]

John, I think we'll still have irons as BUIS, and a lot of smaller pistols will only have irons even in the future.

People seem to be saying that red dot on rifle = pro military, red dot on pistol = theory. I don't understand that...if it works on the rifle, it should work on a pistol.

[DefiantDad]

I reckon the stock and cheek weld on the rifle makes it much faster to have the red dot in the ballpark, compared to a pistol, as you raise the arms. Unless of course you are already moving and acquiring targets while holding the pistol up so you are looking through the red dot already.

[skt239]

I use a crimson trace on my carry gun. It's a model LG105 Defender and I love it. It has no on/off switch, you simply apply pressure and it comes on. If you want it off, it takes very little letting up so that's not an issue. When I practice, I do half my shooting with the CT and half with the stock grips; no matter which I use, my shots end up in the same place.

Drying firing with the crimson trace not only helps you with trigger control, it also hones your point shooting skills. After about a year of using one, when I do draw and fire drills, I don't even pay attention to the dot, I just natural point where I'm supposed to. I attribute that to practicing with the CT. I can't say that it's better than a reflex because I have no experience with them. However, I can say that the pros of the CT far out way any of the commonly stated cons. The only downside I can find about the CT's is the cost.

[ku4hx]

Based on a real world wife-home-alone-front-door-broken-down-and-perp-in-the-house experience, wife and I settled on lasers and lots of practice with them. We have five CTC lasers on various guns in the SD rotation. Wife raked the slide on her Glock 23 and the guy she faced down turned and ran. The G23 is one of the five with CTC devices.

In low light situations, they're pretty much "point and click". Not perfect; nothing is, but based on her experience she feels they give us the advantage and she should know in my opinion. Coupled with an active and monitored alarm system, intrusion hardened door frames and other anti intrusion measures we feel we've done pretty much all we can do without building a fort.

And, just as a side note, we live in a gated "secure and safe" subdivision. As if there really are any of those.

[basicblur]

We have been fighting with red dots for eight years in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Mebbe I missed it, but I have yet to see a Reflex style sight on a military sidearm.

[Comedian]

Mebbe I missed it, but I have yet to see a Reflex style sight on a military sidearm. Irrelevant, the benefits of having a reflex sight on a pistol are the same as they are for a rifle.

[basicblur]

Irrelevant, the benefits of having a reflex sight on a pistol are the same as they are for a rifle.
And I'm sure the downsides are the same also - must be some reason the miltary doesn't use 'em on their sidearms if they were the end all / be all that some folks seem to think.

[Comedian]

And I'm sure the downsides are the same alsoWhat are the downsides of getting a proper sight picture faster? Given the state of current mini-reflex sights the only thing I can think of is a minor amount of additional bulk and the cost of having a pistol slide milled.

- must be some reason the miltary doesn't use 'em on their sidearms if they were the end all / be all that some folks seem to think.Why spend the time/money/resources to mount red dots on a weapon that is rarely, if ever, going to be used? There's a reason most modern military small arms are equipped with optics. They're better than iron sights.

[basicblur]

What are the downsides of getting a proper sight picture faster?
You may or may not get a sight picture faster - there are numerous scenarios where you would probably be better served with a laser (like any time you may be forced to shoot without being able to use your gun as scripted).

Given the state of current mini-reflex sights the only thing I can think of is a minor amount of additional bulk and the cost of having a pistol slide milled.
I guess one has to define minor - somebody (in this thread earlier?) was investigating putting an RMR on a S&W SHIELD...aren't we getting just a wee bit silly here? I also seem to recall some saying they'd lose their rear site by installling the RMR - extremely bad idea. As a retired industrial troubleshooter, it always amazes me how trusting in technology some folks can be.

Why spend the time/money/resources to mount red dots on a weapon that is rarely, if ever, going to be used?
And exactly how often does one plan to use his HD weapon?
I don't know if that's such a good argument for not putting one on a gun, but as others have stated, it's money probably better spent on ammo / practice / training.

There's a reason most modern military small arms are equipped with optics. They're better than iron sights.
They also have lasers, so now we're back to which is better?

I have lasers, no optics on my handguns, and in a SD scenario, would not be surprised at all if I would resort to point shooting, at least for the initial shots.

[Greg528iT]

As for the Army having sights on pistols or not.. I think that is more a case of, The preferred tactical weapon is a RIFLE. The pistols are just back ups. Once a pistol becomes the preferred tactical weapon, you'll see them retrofitting M9s with halo sights.

[Comedian]

You may or may not get a sight picture faster - there are numerous scenarios where you would probably be better served with a laser (like any time you may be forced to shoot without being able to use your gun as scripted). Do list them, because I'm not coming up with any (let alone "numerous") instances in which one has time to acquire a dot, fractions of inch in size (and possibly several yards away), and put it on the target but lacks the time to use sights.
I guess one has to define minor - somebody (in this thread earlier?) was investigating putting an RMR on a S&W SHIELD...aren't we getting just a wee bit silly here?Obviously there are practical limits to what you can mount an optic on, that wasn't the point.
I also seem to recall some saying they'd lose their rear site by installling the RMR - extremely bad idea. As a retired industrial troubleshooter, it always amazes me how trusting in technology some folks can be.Most people currently milling pistol slides for reflex sights (Suarez International TSD, Bowie, Lone Wolf, etc) manage to keep the rear sight. FN has even released a pistol that is pre-milled to accept a reflex sight.
And exactly how often does one plan to use his HD weapon?Irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that the military issues optics because there is a corresponding increase in performance. It's not theoretical, it's a demonstrable fact. That said, I hope I never have to use any weapon I own, but that doesn't change the fact that having an optic on any firearm makes it easier to quickly engage a target with sighted shots.
I don't know if that's such a good argument for not putting one on a gun, but as others have stated, it's money probably better spent on ammo / practice / training.The two aren't mutually exclusive.
They also have lasers, so now we're back to which is better?Unless I'm mistaken, military laser sights aren't visible light lasers and are intended for use with NVGs. They aren't equivalent to what you have on a handgun. As to which is better, I think red dots are more applicable across a wider variety of situations.

[Skribs]

And exactly how often does one plan to use his HD weapon?

The comment was regarding why the M9 doesn't have optics placed on it, and the answer is because the M9 is not used nearly as much as the M16/M4 in combat. The military puts those expensive optics on the weapons that are actually going to be used. Since I don't carry an M16 with me, a pistol is an option.

Do list them, because I'm not coming up with any (let alone "numerous") instances in which one has time to acquire a dot, fractions of inch in size (and possibly several yards away), and put it on the target but lacks the time to use sights.

I'm with Comedian. Compared with a red dot, I do not see irons as faster. The advantage of strictly irons is easier concealment, lower profile weapon (honestly doesn't matter much with a pistol), and convenience/cost.

Most people currently milling pistol slides for reflex sights (Suarez International TSD, Bowie, Lone Wolf, etc) manage to keep the rear sight. FN has even released a pistol that is pre-milled to accept a reflex sight.

Others use the reflex as the rear sight. I was looking at the Bowie Tactical custom work, and he'll make it so you effectively have an I-Dot sight with a line on the back of an RMR and the front dot. If the RMR doesn't work, the line will still be there and work as a rear iron.

Some people may just put on the reflex and then ignore the need for backup irons. That doesn't mean that the reflex sight is bad because people use it in this configuration. It means this configuration doesn't have a failsafe option. It's a user problem, not a reflex sight problem.

---

As to point-shooting, that is where I was thinking the only advantage for a laser was, but if I am point shooting it's probably going to be at a distance where I'm shooting before I register the laser on target. After reading some of the responses and thinking about it, I think that whoever said reflex > night sights > ironsights > laser was pretty much right, as far as sighting goes. Exclude laser and reverse the list, and you have a convenience/cost scale.

[labhound]

All the talk about using a laser and "trying to find the dot". If you point your gun at your target like you normally would with iron sights, the "dot" will fall on the target. There is no "chasing the dot". Just because you have a laser on your gun doesn't mean you've forgotten how to shoot. :banghead:

[Certaindeaf]

I put a reflex sight and a laser on my pocketknife.. when I cut potatoes, they call me "the opertater"! That's just the way I roll.

[X-Rap]

Using any gadget including iron sights when you don't give yourself enough time to learn to properly use them will lead to poor performance.
You do yourself an injustice by not learning to shoot and handle your weapons properly just as you do yourself an injustice by sticking your head in the sand and denying advances in technology that can make you better and more lethal, that is the objective in this whole discussion isn't it?

[basicblur]

Do list them, because I'm not coming up with any (let alone "numerous") instances in which one has time to acquire a dot, fractions of inch in size (and possibly several yards away), and put it on the target but lacks the time to use sights.
It’s not so much a question of time, but of position, possible injuries (can you even raise your gun for a ‘proper’ sight picture), etc. If you’re behind the sofa, how ya gonna check out the view – look over the top of the sofa, or peer around it closer to the floor (I know which option I’d choose). If I’m trying to present as small a target as possible, am I going to be able to use a red dot in that position?
‘Spose your home invader has struck the first blow – mebbe your arm is injured to the point you can’t raise it?
I’m sure you’ve heard the quote I did not see that coming…you can continue to train for the perfect world scenario, but chances are, when it happens, it will be like nothing you envisioned (then you too can say I did not see that coming!).

The advantage of strictly irons is easier concealment, lower profile weapon (honestly doesn't matter much with a pistol), and convenience/cost.
Lower profile doesn’t matter much with a pistol, eh…CC much?

After reading some of the responses and thinking about it, I think that whoever said reflex > night sights > ironsights > laser was pretty much right, as far as sighting goes.

Fer myself, I’m figuring point shooting > night sights > laser, depending on how much time I have. If time presents itself, I’d skip the point shooting and go directly to night sights. If I find myself trying to present the smallest target possible, the laser might well jump to the top of the list.

Ya'll can carry on the theoretical arguments and perfect world scenarios...I'm still trying to wrap my head around a Reflex sight on a SHIELD... :what:

[basicblur]

I put a reflex sight and a laser on my pocketknife.. when I cut potatoes, they call me "the opertater"! That's just the way I roll.
I'll allow it...but only if you carry it in a drop-leg holster...

[GRIZ22]

Lasers and reflex sights have some uses. Not as something to rely on on a SD/HD gun.

Instead of spending your money on such things, buy night sights and a good flashlight. Spend whatever you have left on ammo working on your basics.

[basicblur]

you do yourself an injustice by sticking your head in the sand and denying advances in technology that can make you better and more lethal, that is the objective in this whole discussion isn't it?
To that end, I assume the discussion would also be to determine what's practical / feasible / desirable, and what is bling.

I still remember four wheel steering and all the theoretical chatter / sales pitches 'bout how much better the technology was (I just laughed when I heard about it)...where is it now?

Just because one doesn't automatically gravitate towards new technology doesn't automatically make one a luddite.

[Skribs]

Lasers and reflex sights have some uses. Not as something to rely on on a SD/HD gun.

Why is something that allows for faster target aquisition not something to rely on for a SD/HD gun? I understand that RDS can fail and that's why you have BUIS, but why is something that the Army trusts to work something that I shouldn't trust?

It’s not so much a question of time, but of position, possible injuries (can you even raise your gun for a ‘proper’ sight picture), etc. If you’re behind the sofa, how ya gonna check out the view – look over the top of the sofa, or peer around it closer to the floor (I know which option I’d choose). If I’m trying to present as small a target as possible, am I going to be able to use a red dot in that position?

You expose maybe a half inch more using a RDS over irons. If you want to use the BUIS as your sight plane to lower your profile, the difference is even less.

‘Spose your home invader has struck the first blow – mebbe your arm is injured to the point you can’t raise it?

In this case, irons vs. RDS doesn't matter, it becomes Iron/RDS vs. Laser. If you can't use the RDS, then you wouldn't be able to use irons either.

Lower profile doesn’t matter much with a pistol, eh…CC much?

I listed concealed carry and lower profile separately. Easier to conceal is the bigger issue. The low profile I was referring to is low profile while sighted, which doesn't make much difference when using a pistol RDS on a milled slide. Take a cheapo reflex and put it on top of an aftermarket rail on a shotgun and you'll change the profile a lot - enough that I had to adjust shims and buy a higher cheek rest. On a pistol, the difference isn't nearly that big.

Concealed carry I do agree is an issue, depending on how you carry. IWB might be a tad tougher. OWB you probably wouldn't even notice. Pocket carry a RDS would be terrible (I can pocket carry many compact autos in my cargo shorts hip pocket, but they barely clear the pocket with an easy draw).

Ya'll can carry on the theoretical arguments and perfect world scenarios...I'm still trying to wrap my head around a Reflex sight on a SHIELD

I don't see how the RDS being faster than irons is "theory". It's been proven to work by pretty much every review I've read that started with "I thought it was just a marketing gimmick until I started using it." Even still, I think you're getting wrapped up in someone putting it on a Shield. If it fits and works, why not? Personally, I wouldn't put it on something I'd pocket/ankle carry, and that's the only reason I'd get a small single-stack.

ETA:

To that end, I assume the discussion would also be to determine what's practical / feasible / desirable, and what is bling.

This is true. However, one cannot deny the advantage that a RDS provides in terms of speed compared to irons. You have to start there before asking yourself if it is practical or not. I would not consider the RDS "bling", as bling is something shiny with no real use. The RDS has a real use. It also adds to the profile of the pistol and incurs cost and time invested (which is not mutually exclusive with training). The questions that should be asked to determine if it's practical or not aren't the speed comparison with irons, but: 1) whether or not you can carry it with the added size, and 2) whether or not you find the cost and time investment to be worth it.

[X-Rap]

The point is there have been some advances made in sighting systems beyond the cut in channel on the DA revolver. Are we at the apex with the Reflex? Who knows but those who have moved from iron sights in the military have no doubts about the benefits that more modern designs offer and some who are presently working with the same technology on handguns are so far impressed as well.
I don't have one on a handgun myself but I do on a few rifles and it makes a difference IMO. I would love to get the chance to try one of the RMR's and run a few hundred rounds with it. I feel the same about lasers, I got one cause it came on the gun and was basically free, do I like it? well I haven't had the chance to shoot anyone with it yet but on the range late in the afternoon it works perfectly, at home inside it is clearly visible all the time and when the gun is held in the ready position it is right were it should be to make an effective shot, can't ask for more than that. It is also a good training tool.
Remember when people said lights were useless? night sights? There are still those who would say that just as there are those who say 5,6,8 is enough, if it doesn't penetrate to FBI specs your load is worthless, empty chamber vs loaded.
Bottom line do what works for you, if it doesn't it's doubtful the rest of us will ever know.

[TimboKhan]

Combat red dots on rifles are a different breed of cat than combat red dots on pistols.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Certaindeaf]

Since every copper on the planet has one a those gewgaws on his gat, nevermind

[Skribs]

Combat red dots on rifles are a different breed of cat than combat red dots on pistols.

Aside from the size, and the fact that on a pistol it will recoil with the slide (which the irons do, anyway, so it's not really changing the fact that the sights recoil), how is it different?

[Certaindeaf]

^
On one, it's affixed to the "bolt" and on the other, it's not? Having the bolt be able to move is kinda critical most times.

[Skribs]

On one, it's affixed to the "bolt" and on the other, it's not? Having the bolt be able to move is kinda critical most times.

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving? I understand the weight issue, but I've also never heard people talk about how a lightweight reflex sight caused their pistol to FTE.

[JN01]

Works for me. For me the main draw back is the cost of the sight. If Trijicon starts getting some competition that is as heavy duty as their RMR, then perhaps the prices would go down.

Big advantages to me:

My eyes aren't what they used to be. I have trouble focusing on irons, particularly with speed. With the red dot, you keep focus on the target, looking through the dot.

Iron sights are somewhat dependent upon sight radius for accuracy (i.e. most people shoot better with longer barrels). With a red dot, there is no sight radius, so barrel length is only relevant as far as bullet velocity.

Dots are very visible in most lighting conditions, though if you aim at a bright light, the dot will wash out.

The RMRs are extremely reliable, but in the event it should fail, back up irons are easy to transition to. Other red dots are not as sturdy. I have Burris Fast Fires that I use on a Ruger Mk III and a AA .22 conversion for my Glock. They work decent, but I would not rely on them on a self-defense weapon.

My RMR equipped G26 is no more difficult for me to carry concealed than the standard version. I carry either in the same position (IWB-appendix)

Would money spent on a red dot be better spent on ammo and/or training? Well, maybe, but you could say the same thing about money spent on that second (or 25th) handgun.

Do you NEED a red dot? Again, maybe not, but if you can afford it, why not? In my personal experience, I can shoot better with one than without one. I want every advantage I can get if I am forced to defend myself.

[Greg528iT]

JN01.. NICE!.. DO you have a shot of it in a carry holster? That would be my only concern on a carry piece, but from you picture, not much of one.

[GLOOB]

All the talk about using a laser and "trying to find the dot". If you point your gun at your target like you normally would with iron sights, the "dot" will fall on the target. There is no "chasing the dot". Just because you have a laser on your gun doesn't mean you've forgotten how to shoot.

So if the dot always falls on the target when you point normally, then why do you even need it? Maybe the laser should be invisible, so the other guy can't see it. You will know it's there, cuz you pointed the gun like you normally would have. :)

Ok, I know. The laser is for low light where you can't see your sights. A reflex does that... too. In addition to working in almost all other conditions.

[basicblur]

So if the dot always falls on the target when you point normally, then why do you even need it? Maybe the laser should be invisible, so the other guy can't see it. You will know it's there, cuz you pointed the gun like you normally would have.
Sounds like a pretty good description of point shooting to me.

All the talk about using a laser and "trying to find the dot".
Is it just me, or when folks talk about having to chase a laser, does anyone else see images of those cat videos where they're chasing the dot? :D

Now ya gotta admit...maybe you'll never acquire the BG as a target (I'm too busy chasing this damn dot!), but you will probably freak him out so badly that he'll be moonwalking away...

[Certaindeaf]

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving?.
The way I see it, if the sight gets hung up on anything when it's commonly on the pistol, the pistol won't function. When it's on a rifle, it will.

[Skribs]

I guess. But I don't see a RDS as small as the RMR to get stuck on much that the slide wouldn't otherwise get stuck on.

[JN01]

JN01.. NICE!.. DO you have a shot of it in a carry holster? That would be my only concern on a carry piece, but from you picture, not much of one.

I don't have any shots of mine in the holster, but here are a few: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/archangelappendixcarryaiwbappendixinsidethewaistband-1.aspx

If you order directly from the maker, Dale Fricke (http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm) he will make any modifications that you want, super nice guy with an excellent product.

[Greg528iT]

I was hesitant about adding the weight to the slide. I can verify, that a Burris Fast fire does NOT affect the slide action.

[Certaindeaf]

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving?.
Uh, it doesn't. But if something in this great wide world we live in were to obstruct its travel.. nevermind

[Rexster]

Based upon my experience with an Aimpoint Micro T-1 on a carbine, I would like to try one, or another quality red-dot sight, on a handgun. As I approached the half-century mark, my previously excellent eyesight went downhill, but with the T-1, I don't need my eyeglasses to get a good sight picture, at least at this point in time. Obviously, an Aimpoint Micro is a bit large for a holster-carried handgun, but quite feasible for a "bag" gun, or one pre-positioned for home defense. Some folks are carrying Glocks and such with Trijicon RMS sights.

Lasers, well, I am not so sure. I work for a PD that prohibits lasers on any weapon we might use for defense of ourselves or others, and this applies 24/7/365, so I have no experience with lasers.

[Comedian]

Sounds like a pretty good description of point shooting to me.Yeah, so what's the point of a laser if all it's doing is providing unnecessary feedback on the target (since whenever you point a pistol it's already on target and requires no adjustment)?
It’s not so much a question of time, but of position,What positions are easier to shoot from with a laser sight?
possible injuries (can you even raise your gun for a ‘proper’ sight picture)There's an injury where I can't raise my gun but still have enough muscle control to accurately aim a laser sight?
If you’re behind the sofa, how ya gonna check out the view – look over the top of the sofa, or peer around it closer to the floor (I know which option I’d choose). If I’m trying to present as small a target as possible, am I going to be able to use a red dot in that position?How does this change with a laser sight? You still have to break cover in order acquire and engage a target. Having a laser sight doesn't suddenly allow you to aim around corners without presenting some kind of target to what you're engaging. I'm not seeing how it allows you to present a lower profile target, seeing as you still have to expose your shooting arm and part of your face.
‘Spose your home invader has struck the first blow – mebbe your arm is injured to the point you can’t raise it?You're in melee with somebody and you can use a laser sight?
I’m sure you’ve heard the quote I did not see that coming…you can continue to train for the perfect world scenario, but chances are, when it happens, it will be like nothing you envisioned (then you too can say I did not see that coming!).What are you talking about? You're the only person here who's listing extremely specific scenarios in which a laser might be more worthwhile than a red dot.
Ya'll can carry on the theoretical arguments and perfect world scenarios...I'm still trying to wrap my head around a Reflex sight on a SHIELD... :what:Again, it's not theoretical, it's a fact, and you've provided nothing other baseless claims to suggest otherwise.

[One_Jackal]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

[Skribs]

One Jackal, that's why you use Paul Gomez' high thumb technique. It's the second part of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5sK8TE1nq4&feature=g-all-u

Comedian, some of the things that you mentioned were brought up regarding reflex sights, not lasers. But since there's very little change in how you hold the gun between a reflex and a laser, I agree there's not much to those points.

You can use a laser if you can't get a good sight picture. An injury which prevents you from raising your arm might not prevent you from pointing with your lower arm, and a laser is the only option of the three (fixed, laser, reflex) that will work in that situation.

[basicblur]

If you see a laser on you, you are probably going to squirm and dodge, so IMHO I think a laser sight can detract from your hit rate on a threat.
Maybe, maybe not?
He seems to do pretty well with the target and shooter both moving (@ the 2:10 mark).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LBmZ92e9QoM#!


When I took my CHP course, the instructor brought in a former LEO for part of the course - one of his demos was working your way through your home - not recommended, but may be necessary should you need to get to family members or escape. He taught that as you travel through your house, you should advance with your left arm up, acting as a shield, and your weapon close to your body for retention. If you are surprised/struck, hopefully they'll get the left arm, allowing you to retain the gun as it’s in a more secure position. Kinda tough to do with a Reflex sight.

Apparently similar to what some are still being taught (@ the 4:20 mark).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3dB8FiaM6k&feature=player_embedded

Laser or Reflex (or neither) – you’ll have to make your choice, but to make blanket statements (as some in here have) ‘bout lasers being useless?

[Certaindeaf]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.
Years ago, I bought a 4" M-19 with an inscribed brass skullcrusher buttplate for a gal (I forget what it said but it was pretty cool), she didn't really like it though..

[X-Rap]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

Seriously?
I don't believe that in the last 15 yrs or so a cop could keep his job long if he were inclined to pull his gun and rap folks on the head. A uniform cop will have plenty of less than leathal tools on his belt before he must pull his last resort to end a LTL encounter.
As for the fine old M10 while very servicable I haven't seen one on the belt of a LEO for years much less a Trooper, does he patrol between Mayberry and Mt. Pilot?

[Certaindeaf]

^
In the old old days, they carried saps and such and some would.. nevermind. Some people live to 100 years of age word has it. You could check it out on the internet just to make sure though.

[ScottieG59]

We all have our comfort zones and opinions on what is right. Normally, people like to stay with what has been proven over time, especially if they are familiar with the technology.

I try to adapt, though I like to wait until something new proves its value. I did not use stainless steel handguns when they first became widely available. I did not get a polymer framed pistol until about 3 years ago. I like to let other people do the testing and learn from their experiences in real world field conditions.

I think at the current time, night sights have shown themselves as having value. Personally, I find them easier to use in both daytime and darker conditions. In darker conditions, I have problems quickly acquiring a good sight picture with standard sights. Your eyes may be different.

I was slow to try out laser sights. I have installed laser sights on 3 of my carry guns. I do not use they as a primary aiming device. If I am in my normal shooting position, the laser is normally not really seen very well. However, experience has taught me that I may not be in a good position to use my sights during an attack. It is for those common, but awkward, positions I feel a laser may help. One example is when inside a motor vehicle. Another situation is when cover does not allow me to align behind my sights. Additionally, my old man eyes are better at seeing further away and focusing on the front sight may be slower. Wait until you are old and you will face the same issue; your eyes will become like a cheap fixed focus camera.

As to giving my position away with a laser, the scenario faced by a civilian is likely that your are being attacked. I guess this means they already know where you are.

[X-Rap]

In the old days they brought the bad guy in tied over his saddle:rolleyes:
My comments refered to present and recent history (last 15 yrs) in which I would seriously like to hear of some actual case in which a LE used his gun as a club unless he was in a fight for his life and the gun was disabled or empty.
I also would love to hear what SP agency allows a 38 spc revolver as a primary duty weapon today.
I am well aware that in the old days police were much more allowed to "make their point" than they are today but they also had much poorer weapons training and were not equiped nearly as well. I knew an old Trooper from the early days in NM and some of the things they did would.. nevermind

[One_Jackal]

The trooper I am speaking about hasn't seen full time patrol duty in over 10 years. The only reason he hasn't retired is his wife has heart disease. Once he retires getting insurance for her will be a nightmare. However, I would take his advice over anyone that uses this forum. I don't care if you were special forces or what you have done. He has survived and thrived during a rough period of time for a black state trooper. The situations he has encountered over the years are very close to situations I have had to deal with in bar room brawls, etc.. In other words I can relate to his techniques and put them to use without any training.

[Comedian]

When I took my CHP course, the instructor brought in a former LEO for part of the course - one of his demos was working your way through your home - not recommended, but may be necessary should you need to get to family members or escape. He taught that as you travel through your house, you should advance with your left arm up, acting as a shield, and your weapon close to your body for retention. If you are surprised/struck, hopefully they'll get the left arm, allowing you to retain the gun as it’s in a more secure position. Kinda tough to do with a Reflex sight.How would that be any more difficult with a reflex as opposed to a laser sight? Again, if you're at contact distance with your assailant any aiming aid is going to be of limited/no value.
Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation?In the case of red dots they make accurate sighted shooting easier and faster.
A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. There's literally a dozen other things a patrol officer could carry on his duty belt that are more suitable to womping people than a pistol up to, and including, an actual club. So why would any LEO choose a pistol based on it's club like qualities?
A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.The officers I work with that are old enough to still be carrying a revolver carry it because they've got 20 or 30 years of experience with that platform, not because it's a good club. If you need to club somebody there's one your duty belt that can't be used to shoot you should it come out of your hand while employing it on a suspect.

[wally]

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally
I'd love to see it, the pre-milled slide on my FNP-45 Tactical really makes the RMR rock.

I think irons are just fine in the interim.
You'll sing a different tune when you get old!

Trijicon RMR dual illumination is IMHO the best option. No batteries required and if I live long enough to need the tritium replaced they do it for a reasonable fee.

[JN01]

Trijicon RMR dual illumination is IMHO the best option. No batteries required and if I live long enough to need the tritium replaced they do it for a reasonable fee.

Didn't realize that was an option. I chose the RM02 as I figured replacing a $4 battery once a year was cheaper than replacing a $450 sight every dozen years. What is a reasonable fee for tritium replacement?

[Skribs]

My only concern with the dual-illuminated reticle is I've heard that it bases the brightness of the dot on the ambient light, and if you're in the dark shooting into a brighter area the dot can become washed out.

The reason this is a big issue is if I am using my gun at night, and I use a light for target ID, I would be shooting from dark into bright. Anyone got any experience with this and know if its being blown out of proportion?

[wally]

My only concern with the dual-illuminated reticle is I've heard that it bases the brightness of the dot on the ambient light, and if you're in the dark shooting into a brighter area the dot can become washed out

Its possible, I guess if your light is bright enough, but in a dark room with the dot on a white or black surface I have no trouble still seeing the dot when I shine my D-Cell MAG-LITE at where the dot is on the object.

The tritium gives a "constant" brightness, the ambient light gathered via the optical fibers boosts it as needed to keep the contrast up. Great system, wish I'd thought of it!


The RMR tritium is warranted for 15 years according to the warranty card that comes with it. I've got a 20+ year old Glock 17 with night sights and while not as bright as they were originally they are still usable (if I could still focus on them :( but I've never been a big fan of night sights as if its dark enough to need them, I find it hard to tell which is the front vs. the rear and question target ID capabilities).

[Skribs]

I have a streamlight TLR-1, 8000 candella/120 lumens. What's the light output of your flashlight? Have you tried it in a dark room with only the light for illumination?

[wally]

I've no idea of the lumen output of my D-cell MAG-LITE but it lit up the room at night after hurricane Ike quite nicely.

Have you tried it in a dark room with only the light for illumination?
That is exactly what I did for the post above.

As far as I know, all the battery powered reflex sights in the same size range as the RMR have the same potential issue as they vary the dot's brightness to match the ambient light.

[Skribs]

As far as I know, all the battery powered reflex sights in the same size range as the RMR have the same potential issue as they vary the dot's brightness to match the ambient light.

Some of them have a forward light sensor, the trijicon style I believe takes in light from above. I think this would be slightly better in a HD situation, but I see your point.

[JN01]

Yes, the RM02 (battery only) self adjusts the dot brightness to the light level. You can still see the dot well if looking into an area lit up by a flashlight for example. You get wash out when you point it directly AT a bright light source.

[WardenWolf]

You'd think they'd be smart and put a light sensor on those things angled forwards. . .

[Skribs]

Yes, the RM02 (battery only) self adjusts the dot brightness to the light level. You can still see the dot well if looking into an area lit up by a flashlight for example. You get wash out when you point it directly AT a bright light source.

Okay, sounds like maybe what I read what a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe I'll consider the Trijicon dual-illuminated over some of the other options I was looking at.

[One_Jackal]

The officers I work with that are old enough to still be carrying a revolver carry it because they've got 20 or 30 years of experience with that platform, not because it's a good club. If you need to club somebody there's one your duty belt that can't be used to shoot you should it come out of your hand while employing it on a suspect.

If you are a LEO I want to thank you for your service. I had just moved to NC when I met this trooper. Just like all the other rednecks in the area I had the attitude that no f'n Nword was going to arrest me. He drew his pistol because he didn't know what he was getting into. What was he supposed to do, put his pistol down and get out a blackjack? Please, lets be realistic! 25 years ago backup was far away. Average Sheriffs Dept response time was over 45 minutes. One trooper covered several counties.

Over the years I got to know this gentleman. Today I respect him as much as many members of my own family. he is one of the few officers in the area who actually protect and serve. The rest protect you by serving you a citation. If you are actually in trouble they don't even slow down.