Problem with 9mm

Just started reloading 9mm, and we are having hell with them.

Basically, they are jamming in my XD-9 (3.8). They are jamming so badly, we have to use a screwdriver to pull the extractor back, to get the slide to even move back. When we rack the slide back, the bullet actually gets stuck in the barrel. The round pulls apart, throwing powder everywhere.

I always know when the round didn't load properly, because the slide doesn't slide all the way forward.

I am using a loadmaster, taper crimp die, set ONLY to seat bullet, and using a Lee factory crimp die. These are with Friendswood lead bullets.

I bought a drop in gauge, and they fit, but some take a little help to slide fully into the gauge.

What am I missing? Why are they not sizing correctly?

what kind of bullets?

Your loaded overall length is coming out too long if the bullets are sticking in the barrel. Get a cheap dial caliper to accurately set overall length as you seat the bullet.

Doesn't matter what kind of bullets.

Doesn't matter if they fit a chamber gage either if your pistol has a shorter rifling leade then the gage..

Take the barrel out of your gun to use as a chamber gage at the loading press.

You have to seat them deep enough they don't jam into the rifling when you drop one in the chamber and do the "Plunk Test".

It should "plunk" in all the way so the case head is flush with the barrel hood, and fall back out when you turn the barrel down.

rc

IIRC Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169. INCHES

Longer than that and you're asking fro trouble.

You have to seat them deep enough they don't jam into the rifling when you drop one in the chamber
But not so deep that they create enough pressure to Ka-boom your 500$ pistol.

Welcome to THR!


Due to the pistol ramp/barrel design, many XD owners post that they need to run the OAL shorter than typical so be prepared to seat the bullet deeper.

Try the following (I do this with any new bullet):

1. Take the barrel out of the pistol and drop a resized case into the chamber (just the case, no bullet). The resized case should drop in freely. If it doesn't, make sure you are full-length resizing the case (bottom of resizing die should just kiss the top of the shell holder/plate).

2. Using the resized case that passed the barrel drop test, make a dummy round (no powder/no primer) using SAAMI max OAL (since XD will take shorter OAL, you could probably start at 1.135" OAL) and add .020"-.021" to the diameter of the bullet for the taper crimp (so for .356" jacketed diameter bullet, use .376"-.377" taper crimp).

3. Again using the barrel drop test, incrementally decrease the OAL until the dummy round drops in freely (should make a "plonk" sound as the case mouth headspaces on the chamber) and the bullet nose don't hit the rifling when you spin the round. This determines the MAX OAL for the barrel (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678).

4. Once you determined the MAX OAL, you'll need to determine the Ideal OAL that will work with your magazine/pistol ramp. Lock the slide back and put the dummy round in the magazine. Insert the magazine and release the slide without riding it (let it feed/chamber on its own). If the dummy round won't feed/chamber, incrementally decrease the OAL until it does.

Once you determined the Ideal OAL that works well for your barrel/magazine, then conduct a full powder workup.

Make up a dummy, sized but not primed or powdered, and seat the bullet a little deeper and a little deeper until it chambers freely. Chamber check in the actual barrel clean and out of the gun, that matters more than the gauge.

You've gotten good advice already. Especially using the barrel to gauge your dummy rounds.

You might just need to switch to a different bullet, too. Could be something about that bullet's profile that just won't work in your XD's chamber and barrel dimensions.


Let us know what you find out.

You need a fifty pound recoil spring.
































that was a joke

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=167637&stc=1&d=1341530854

It's not a length issue. We keep them around 1.135.

When the brass is resized, it falls into the gauge and barrel.

When the bullets are seated, something happens and it must bulge it somewhere. Because it's a tapered round, it makes it hard to determine where the bulge actually is.

The only way that the bullets can be getting caught hard enough that you are separating the round and dumping powder is if they are engaging the rifling of the barrel... That bullet may need to be seated deeper.

It CAN be a length issue. If you do the "plunk" test and everything fits, then I don't know. But from personal experience, loading .356" bullets causes me problems with the bullet's driving band jamming into the freebore, NOT the lands/grooves, whatever.

I have to seat lead bullets deep enough to put the driving band low enough into the case so as not to hit the freebore, and adjust my powder to allow for the deeper seating.

What type of bullet are you using? RN, FP, etc?

Also, as rcmodel usually suggests, mark the dummy round with candle smoke or dry erase marker and push into the chamber to see where it is rubbing.

bodam it most likely is a COL issue. The bullet gets stuck in the barrel right. There has already been good advise on how to trouble shoot your problem. What you need to do is take a marker and color the entire loaded round. Then take the round and chamber it in your gun. The round has a tight fit where ever the marker has rubbed off. If it is tight in the case body then the bullet diameter is too big for the case and chamber combination. You will need smaller bullets or thinner brass. If it is tight at the case mouth you didnt remove all the flare and need to add a little more crimp.
NOW after checking the case look at the bullet. If some of the marks from the marker is gone, or the bullet has abrasion marks on it, or if it gets stuck in the barrel, the col of the loaded round is too long for the chamber and bullet profile combination. take an unsized case fired in that gun and place a bullet in it. Remove the barrel from the slide and chamber the above round by pushing it in by hand. This will get you close to what the col needs to be for that bullet. Shorten it a little for to allow for slight differences in the bullets. Check reliabilty by loading a small batch first.

get rid of the LCD.

murf

Using an auto pistol barrel find a MAX O.A.L with your bullet (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678)

This link may help. It is a pictorial of the advise already given.

I load for an XD and a Kahr in 9mm. I keep my OAL between 1.125 and 1.130 and have never had any problems. I run just enough powder to cycle the action so Im not concerned with the pressures. My XD is more forgiving, the Kahr will not feed anything longer than about 1.140

Buckeyeguy525, is that OAL for a round nose (RN) profile?

We still do not know what nose profile the OP is using. The OAL used could vary quite a bit depending on the nose profile (RN vs FP).

These are with Friendswood lead bullets.

These are 115gr RN lead bullets.

I will try the drop test. I just dropped a resized brass into the gauge and it fell right in. No restriction at all.

I didn't have time to make a couple of dummy rounds, but the ones that I have already made, stick out of the gauge about 1/16".

That's why I didn't think it was a length problem, since they don't just fall into the gauge, even at shorter lengths.

It seems to be wide at the base, like it is being crushed a tiny bit, just enough to make it fat at the base.

As others have said, seat the bullet deaper.
Take the barrel out and test to make sure the bullet will fall in and out of the chamber.

I will try it. Thanks guys. On vacation next week, I will check back and update results.

So much information here, glad I joined.

If the bullet is being pulled out of the casing (is what you said in the first post), then the bullet is being held in the barrel when you try to extract the round. I can't think of any other reason for that to happen other than the OAL is too long.

9mm is a tapered case. After seating the bullet you should run it though the taper crimp die. Adjust it so that finished cartridges will seat freely in the chamber, by hand.

Had the same issue happen with my brothers S&W M&P 9mm. I had some 124 Gr LRN made for my gun which was a Stoeger Cougar and made the rounds out to 1.100 IIRC and one round jammed so hard into the rifling that it took both of us to open the slide.

When the slide did open, The bullet was stuck in the barrel.
The case fell out and powder was everywhere. We know it is the OAL issue because they work in my gun and not his and since then have made adjustments for his lead boolits and all has been well.

This will prolly start a HUGE debate, but Taper or factory crimp?

I switched to factory crimp to try to eliminate any bulging that might happen after seating.

Right now I seat with a taper crimp die, without a crimp, and next, crimp with the factory crimp die. The rounds got better, but not perfect. I am going to shrink them down a bit and go from there.

Bodam, don't worry about the debate. There are two possibilities.

1. Case does not have proper taper and won't seat in the chamber. ( I put this number one, and I believe this to be the issue.)

2. Finished cartridge is too long, and bullet is engaging the rifling. Is a possibility, but extracting the unfired cartridge should not result in the round being pulled apart.

You know what to check. Good luck.

You need to use a taper crimp die to remove the bell, or a hair more. I adjust mine so the shotrest cases get all the bell removed. The longest cases will get a hair of a crimp. Maybe .001.

The 9MM headspaces on the case mouth, so a roll or heavy taper is not suitable.

I consider my FCD to be a huge waste of money. I purchased it when I started reloading and discovered that it fixed nothing that I had screwed up, and wasn't necessary for a well assembled round. Just my experience.

A "simple" push test: Use an "UNsized" range pick-up case that the bullet will just hold when you push it in slightly.
Using the bbl only, push this slowly into the chamber until it seats on the case mouth.
Carefully pull it back out and measure the oal. Do this several time with different spent cases until you get a consistent MAX oal. The bullet is contacting the rifling/cone at this length.
When you get the oal that's hitting the rifling/cone, subtract about .015 to allow for some headspace, bullet nose and press variation. That's the max "usable oal" that will run in your XD.
As said, the XD (and CZ) have short chambers, so the oals for some nose shapes have to be loaded a little shorter than other pistols.

Use a light taper crimp.

Hope this makes sense.

^
Excellent post.

I switched to factory crimp to try to eliminate any bulging that might happen after seating.

Why? The bulge you see is the case exerting tension on the bullet. Leave it alone.

It's not a length issue. We keep them around 1.135.

When the brass is resized, it falls into the gauge and barrel.

When the bullets are seated, something happens and it must bulge it somewhere. Because it's a tapered round, it makes it hard to determine where the bulge actually is.


It is a length issue. Make dummy rounds. Seat the bullets to various OALs. Since 1.135" sticks, make one at 1.115". If that one sticks make one at 1.095".

Is the lead bullet sized or are you using it as cast? What diameter is it sized to? Who cast the bullet?

It's not a length issue. We keep them around 1.135.

When the brass is resized, it falls into the gauge and barrel.

When the bullets are seated, something happens and it must bulge it somewhere. Because it's a tapered round, it makes it hard to determine where the bulge actually is.
If you are using the FCD, that should eliminate any question of bulged brass.

When you drop a reloaded round in to the chamber, does it REALLY go in as far as a factory round or sized, empty brass?


If the bullet is being pulled out of the casing (what you said in the first post), then the bullet is being held in the barrel when you try to extract the round. I can't think of any other reason for that to happen other than the OAL is too long and SOMETHING is grabbing the bullet. The only thing I can thin of to grab the bullet would be the rifling.
If your chamber is properly dimensioned and cleaned (check to see if factory ammunition passes the "plunk test and gravity extraction test), the ogive of the bullet getting jammed into the rifling is the only explanation for the symptoms you have described.

What bullet are you using? Each bullet mold has a "model" number that will allow knowledgeable casters to further diagnose your situation. The shape of the nose and ogive is CRITICAL here.

Lost Sheep

P.S. If you follow 1SOW's advice (which is excellent, by the way) take particular note of this dimension:

Overall length minus bullet's actual length (of the slug)

With flat base bullets, this will give you an idea of the volume of the chamber available for combustion. Squish that volume too small and you get elevated pressure. Dangerous.

bodam,
You said several times sized brass falls right into the gauge and barrel but it's not sized brass that you are supposed to be checking, it's a complete round.

The most likely reason why the bullet pulls from the case and sticks in the barrel and powder gets all over the gun is the bullet is jamming up against and into the rifling. When when you pry the slide back the rifling holds the bullet and pulls it from the case. OAL that's listed in the books means nothing at all unless you are using the same exact bullet and case they used. Even then if your gun is different than most the OAL can still be too long.

Like said above, make dummy rounds with no powder or primer to see how deep you have to seat the bullet so it doesn't hit the rifling.

bodam,

what is the diameter of the bullet you are loading?

(don't use the fcd die!)

murf

This will prolly start a HUGE debate, but Taper or factory crimp?

I switched to factory crimp to try to eliminate any bulging that might happen after seating.

Right now I seat with a taper crimp die, without a crimp, and next, crimp with the factory crimp die. The rounds got better, but not perfect. I am going to shrink them down a bit and go from there.
The Factory Crimp Die for 9mm IS a taper crimp die.

Lee makes their FCDs as roll crimp dies for the (typically revolver) rounds that headspace on a rim and taper crimp for the (typically semi-auto) rounds that headspace on the case mouth. Same as they do for their combination seat/crimp dies. Same way Redding, RCBS and Lyman do.

Lost Sheep

Why? The bulge you see is the case exerting tension on the bullet. Leave it alone.
Unless the bulge interferes with chambering. Then the FCD's post-sizing function will fix the problem.

Fixing the problem with the FCD MAY cause a new problem, (as 918V correctly points out).

The BEST solution is to ensure the bullets are properly sized to fit your bore and to not bulge the (brand) of cases you use to the point of causing chambering problems. Oversized bullets will bulge your case and require the use of the FCD to cure that defect. Avoid the defect in the first place and the post-sizing function of the FCD (and the problems it carries) are avoided.

Prevention is preferable to cure every time, yes?

Lost Sheep

By adjusting the OAL of the bullet in the case you are adjusting where on the bullet tip radius--the ogive--your seating die will contact the bullet. Also where the rifling will sit in relationship to the ogive differently on each style of bullet. That location not the tip of the bullet is where your problem lies. You have to push the bullet in far enough that it does not jam into the rifling but ends up just short of contacting it. A different style bullet on a loaded round that fits your barrel and has the SAME OAL (at the tip of the bullet) will have the ogive radius shaped differently and run in freely while yours hits and jams because the radius is more of a blunt design. Where the tip of the bullet sits is of more importance in regards to contacting the feed ramp and good feeding than to placement in the chamber of your loaded round. To make the round fit and fall out as described above you will have to make the bullet shorter than it is currently now. I had this trouble with some 9MM bullets that were a flat point design, they were hitting the rifling on my pistol and I had to seat them a good bit deeper. Make sure to work up the load with the new OAL when you find out what it is, just to be safe as seating the bullet deeper will raise pressures fast a lot of times.

Lead bullets need to be loaded very short. Almost to the band typically.

The barrel test works. Or, have a case guage that's smaller, cut closer to min spec. I find Midway to be cut on the small side which means anything that fits it will fit anything.

Unless the bulge interferes with chambering. Then the FCD's post-sizing function will fix the problem.

These bulges never cause chambering problems. Chambers are so generous you would have to seat the bullet at a 45 degree angle to stick the round.

OK guys, have an update:

It seems like it was an issue with the OA length and shape of the lead bullet. The lead bullets we were using were round nose, and the width of the bullet was getting stuck in the rifling. We weren't very comfortable with the length that was required for them to actually work in the XD chamber, so we switched to plated Parabellum bullets.

We loaded 4.2g of Titegroup, and they worked great in the XD. A little on the light side, but they shot so well, I think that is our recipe for that gun.

The remaining lead bullets that we already made work OK through his M&P and my new
LC9, so fortunately we didn't have to pull all the ammo we had made.

I have a XD9mm and what I do is load a dummy round if that good no problems then I set OAL to the dummy round.

Forget the gauge for now, use the barrel taken out of the firearm to check OAL!! Plunk test is far more reliable than the gauge in this respect. If it doesn't plunk and, or, fall back out of the chamber with gravity alone, then your OAL is too long, meaning the bullet is contacting or jamming into the lands. Keep seating deeper until the round will drop out of the chamber WITH THE BARREL TAKEN OUT OF THE FIREARM!

I have some 9mm's that have very generous chamber dimensions, while others are short and require considerably deeper seating depths. OAL is firearm specific. Always start with minimum or low end data and work up once you've determined a proper OAL. The 9mm is can be very OAL pressure sensitive in this respect. Speer says they seated a bullet .030" deeper than what was determined to be functional spec. and pressures increased from 28,000 cup to 62,000 cup as a result.

GS

Forget the gauge for now, use the barrel taken out of the firearm to check OAL!!
Like this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678