What is considered "good groupings" for handguns?

Just recently got into handguns, and I'm not certain whats good and what isnt. I took my xd to the range yesterday and my best grouping was about 2-3 inches from 7 yards. Other groupings were futher away due to me jerking the trigger and my hand shaking.

Five inches at 25 yards offhand will get you by. Go slow and keep at it and you'll surely get better. Keep it up and focus on that front sight!

Whatever makes ya happy, I reckon. I shot this one the other day and was tickled pink. But I usually shoot from a bench, and use a pistol rest. I'm terrible at freehanded shooting.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/targets%20and%20stands/DSC_0033-2.jpg

First time I ever fired my new RIA Compact, I was very happy with this group. Standing and freehanded @ 21 feet.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/targets%20and%20stands/compact1sttarget02.jpg

Try to do a lot of dry-fire. Be safe. If you drop the "hammer" with the sights on target, you hit it. You can "call the shot" also. Anyway, good luck.

I used to be able to shoot fairly small groups but now if I can recognize a group instead of a shotgun-like pattern I'm happy.

Yeah that's good for a standard pistol with fixed sights.

If you're just practicing with your SD pistol that's a good grouping at that range.

Now I've got target pistols with adjustable sights that will cut a ragged hole at that distance but most of my "combat" type handguns have that sort of grouping.

Note that ammunition makes a big difference in the size of your shot groups and your pistol may group better with a particular brand/bullet weight.

With good factory or reloaded ammunition, the reference I use is one inch at 15 yards off hand for full size polymer/striker fired pistols like Glock/M&P and 1.5-2.0 inch at 25 yards for 1911 off sand bags (shot group measured center-to-center, not edge-to-edge).

The size of your fist at 25 yds is very very good if shot twohande freetyle. A platesized at 25 yds in combat scenario will suffice.

With time and some training/corrections you'll be able to produce the same size group at around 17 to 20 during slow aimed fire. But for now 2 to 3 at 7 is fine for a newbie.

The key is to work on your grip stability and lose the flinch.

If your hand is shaking while holding the gun out you're likely tensing up and squeezing too hard. You want to hold the gun with the sort of grip that you'd put into a firm but friendly handshake. And you want your arms supportive but not tensed up. Sort of like the amount of control tension you'd have in a baseball bat while waiting for the pitcher to throw.

With your hands try to hold the gun and move nothing but the trigger finger. If you can do this with no gun in your hand it's a good drill for trying to isolate your trigger finger motion from the stable non moving grip of the rest of your hand.

Another useful trick is to focus on building pressure on the trigger rather than actually moving it. You want to simply ramp up the pressure in your trigger finger and allow the trigger to move or not as it wishes under the influence of that pressure.

You want to move the trigger with a purpose. And that purpose isn't to fire the gun. Instead it is to smoothly move the trigger back as far as it can go in the frame. Somewhere along the way the gun will go BANG!. To focus on this sort of motion you want to move the trigger back and then learn to actually hold it there at the rear travel limit for the recoil and as the gun stabilizes for the next shot. If you can do that you are controlling the gun despite the recoil and blast. And that is what you want to do.

At that point if you relax your trigger finger pressure with the same sort of control as you pulled it back you'll feel the trigger travel forward and feel a little "click" thru your finger. That was the reset point. You can now reverse the release and build up pressure to the rear again.

This all sounds very "Zen" like. And I suppose it is. You want to disconnect yourself from the BANG! and focus on trigger pressure and motion. Along the way if you do this well you'll find that you're simply not flinching at all.

With practice this pressure build and release can occur very quickly. But at first so you can concentrate on a smooth pressure build you want to time it so from the beginning of the build to the trigger stopping at the rear travel limit requires about one full second.

Try some dry firing with this trick to get a feel for it. Then do the same thing at the range.

At 7 yards anything outside of a jagged hole is shooter error. Good shooters (not great) should be able to consistantly shoot 3" groups at 25 yards.

When I started shooting handguns about 4 years ago, I was told to pay attention to my mechanics, shoot slow. Work on your sight picture grip and trigger pull.
Speed comes with lots of practice. 2-3 inches is very good for a newbie. Keep shootin!

At 7 yards free hand, all rounds should print about an inch or under. I usually use B-27 targets. The score ring numbers give you something to shoot at.

At speed, as long as all rounds on target are hidden by my hand when i lay it over the target.....I call it good.

don't worry about the size of your groups. it's like "countin your money while your sittin at the table". just a distraction.

just get into a routine of grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow-through. make it the same every time, you won't have to worry about group size!

fwiw

murf

On the internet, 1" @ 25 yards offhand and standing is considered par ;). With video evidence that will open up to about 6"+ from what I've seen from people that have actual videos.

I never even try at 25 yards in my local indoor range as I can't even see what I'm shooting at. I have a little better than 20/15 vision so I know it's not me. They need better lighting
I guess. In fact now that I think about it I've never seen anybody in there shooting past 15 yards unless they come in and rent a gun, goof around and shoot everywhere except their target.
How any people in here or any gun website for that matter that are older than me and even wear glasses get 1" @ 25 yards is beyond me. I've never seen anybody in there have anything close to
1" groupings at even 15 yards. Inside that range at 10 yards, I'm happy with 3" or less with standing offhand and pulling the trigger every 1.5 to 2 seconds. At 7 yards they stay 1.5-2" and good 10
shot group are under 1" and a few through the same hole.
This is with shooting a CZ75b. With the Kahr CW9 I carry, those will open up a little but out to 15 yards with either gun they are all pie plates and less.

i shoot one inch groups all the time.......until the second shot.

murf

I often hear of all kinds of incredible groups that people say they can shoot offhand, but rarely ever get to witness them being shot in person....IMO, if you can hit a paper plate every time at 25 yards with a centerfire handgun of carry length, you are a pretty darn good shot.

I often hear of all kinds of incredible groups that people say they can shoot offhand, but rarely ever get to witness them being shot in person....IMO, if you can hit a paper plate every time at 25 yards with a centerfire handgun of carry length, you are a pretty darn good shot.

That's good enough for me. In reality, your target is moving and can be shooting back at you. One inch groups are best left for competition and bench rests.

I'm happy to keep most of the hits in the circular Shoot N See Targets at 10-15 yards.

Although I will shoot at 7 yards to determine the ability I have to shoot the chest of the little silhouette in the left hand corner of the target. My Ruger Gp100, Colt Python, P238, and Ed Brown Special Forces can do it.

Just recently got into handguns, and I'm not certain whats good and what isnt.
Depends on what you're trying to do - for target competition, etc, tighter is better.
For SD, if you're shooting too tight a group, it's time to speed up.

Training for SD is a balancing act between accuracy and speed.

With a small caliber pocket pistol, my goal is to empty it out in less than second, hitting multiple 6 inch targets 4 times at 10 yards (6 shots). On the other hand, with a revolver I expect to hit a 2 inch target at 20 yards every time. The range master at DCWC can hit a 6 inch target with my Super Blackhawk on the rifle range. I have tried it but I can't get accustomed to shooting off a bean bag.

Dry firing really helps me with a new rifle. I am sure it would transfer to a pistol.

If I can keep four or five shots in two or three inches at 25 yards I would consider myself having a most excellent day.

Two CZ75's , 5 shots at 25 yards. Two hands resting on the bench, no bags or other support. The flyer was me. Excluding the flyer, the groups are not a lot bigger than the triggerguard area of the gun. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06470.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06469.jpg

I thought I was a decent shot til I read this thread...<sigh>

Note that ammunition makes a big difference in the size of your shot groups and your pistol may group better with a particular brand/bullet weight.
If you are shooting factory ammo, you maybe at a disadvantage in obtaining smaller shot groups.

I thought I was doing OK shooting S&B/PMC ammo for USPSA matches until I started reloading and my shot groups shrank by about 50%. I have done several factory vs reload comparisons over the years using different brand factory ammo with the same results ... good match grade reloads shoot better than average factory ammo.

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards? I mean it also depends on the type of gun you're shooting. A 1911 with target sights or a ruger mk 2 with a red dot is going to shoot tighter than a glock 19 with standard sights.

If I can make headshots at 25 yards I'm happy...with standard 3 dot combat sights.

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards?
You don't know about bullseye shooting competition? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_%28shooting_competition%29

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards?

It didn't just happen overnight. I've spent a lifetime getting there.

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards?

People who care about shooting 2 inch groups @ 25 yards. Certainly not me. Tight rapid-fire groups at combat distances are what I care about. One ragged hole at 3 yards, quarter sized groups at 7 yards, golfball sized groups at 10 yards, baseball sized groups at 15 yards, and a decent pattern at 25 yards (all within the 9 ring of a Texas DPS target).

Like this'un.
http://www.speedwelltargets.com/cart/images/speedwell/b27fsagr.jpg

1.5" groups at 25 yards? Bah, I couldn't give less of a crap about them. I think if everybody who said that they can accomplish this online actually could we'd have a lot more champion shooters out there. I'm often the best shooter at the range when I go, and I have no special shooting ability.

I thought I was a decent shot til I read this thread...<sigh>

Yeah. I'm going to slump back to my humble abode and think about how inadequate I am.

Just about the best groups you'll ever hear about will have been shot on a keyboard. ;) Guy on another forum used to claim that he could shoot "1", 10-shot, groups, with his Sig 9mm @ 25 yds, freehand, 'all day long.'" I attempted to make a substantial wager with him regarding his abilities, offering to have my son, who was doing business in the claimer's city of residence at the time, witness the performance.

The claimer's religion, of course, precluded such a wager.

Good luck on eliciting honest opinions on this subject!! :rolleyes:

I've read American Rifleman handgun tests for many years. It seems that "out of the box" descent quality, full size handguns are generally capable of producing an average of 3" groups at 25 yards. I'm personally not capable of shooting groups that small but do so occasionally. I'd say if you're capable of routinely keeping five shots in a 6" circle offhand at 25 yards you're a pretty good shot.

Initial firing: 117 rounds @ 21' rapid fire ... as fast as I could fire and reload. After this I installed a higher rear sight to raise the grouping to the center of the target.

My interests are now strictly combat distances and combat accuracy having several years ago given up Bullseye competition as my eyes aged and focus on many things changed.

To the newbies: Don't get discouraged by the babble of the prevaricators!! ;)

Good shooters (not great) should be able to consistantly shoot 3" groups at 25 yards.

This has been my standard answer. The gun has to be able to deliver the goods, though.

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards?

Not just bullseye shooters. As CZguy said, good shooting doesn't happen overnight, but it is achievable. It's all about applying the fundamentals better and better. I don't claim 1" @ 25 yards is my norm (pic below), but I'm pretty consistent @ 2 - 2.5".

People who care about shooting 2 inch groups @ 25 yards. Certainly not me. Tight rapid-fire groups at combat distances are what I care about.

Eh...they're more related than you might think. Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, wrote on his forum "you never go beyond the fundamentals; you just apply them quicker". Most good practical shooters can shoot a very respectable 25 yard group when they want or need to.


http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/SW617B-16Freestyle.jpg

Just about the best groups you'll ever hear about will have been shot on a keyboard ... newbies: Don't get discouraged by the babble of the prevaricators!!
I've read American Rifleman handgun tests for many years. It seems that "out of the box" descent quality, full size handguns are generally capable of producing an average of 3" groups at 25 yards.
hentown, this is "The High Road" after all and I certainly don't want to prevaricate anyone (deviate from the truth).

Rick, looks like pistols and ammo have improved over the years. These are taken from March 2012 edition of Combat Handguns regarding accuracy obtained at 25 yards shot off hand (not on mechanical Ransom rest) and Glock 21 was even shot prone and not off sandbag! If these level of accuracy can be obtained from factory ammunition, imagine what can be achieved with handloads?

Over the years, I have learned that a 1911 with a good trigger and open sights from a solid mechanical rest will produce groups approximately 45% of what I can average shooting off of a good sandbag rest at 25 yards. So, remember to at least cut in half the following averages to get an idea
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=167827&stc=1&d=1341756487

As to overall accuracy, there are no benches at Gunsite for target shooting ... so the closest we could come was prone
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=167829&stc=1&d=1341756487

Who are these people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards?

The gun and ammo combo is the key factor. My Dan Wesson that is made for target shooting has a 10 inch barrel on it. You can't expect a Colt 1911 to shoot as well as a gun that spares no expense to achieve greater accuracy. All guns are tools. Any tool has trade offs. The Colt is made to be accurate enough for self defense yet small enough for a soldier to carry all the time. The Dan Wesson is only meant to be carried to the range. I can't even recommend the Dan Wesson as a hunting weapon, unless you want to hire a porter to carry it around for you. Well you could go to a saddle shop and have a holster made so you can carry the Dan Wesson like a rifle.

I would consider myself average to ok shooter. Definitely not a competitive shooter by any means. I would expect that an average shooter with decent equipment should be able to do about like this: All were shot with a Les Baer PII 38 super, 50 shots 15 yrds. These were the first 6 groups shot from the gun.

http://eickpm.com/picts/lb1_012112.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/lb2_012112.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/lb3_012112.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/lb4_012112.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/lb5_012112.jpg
http://eickpm.com/picts/lb6_012112.jpg

The gun and ammo combo is the key factor.
+1 and if you reload, bullet selection will also affect accuracy. While I used to hold the notion that FMJ bullets with lead base was accurate (i used Montana Gold jacketed bullets for match shooting), Berry's hollow base bullets produced more accurate shot groups than my reference Winchester FMJ loads.

These are from my comparison powder work up using Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrel at 15 yards offhand (target squares are one inch) - - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=141044&stc=1&d=1303618922

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=141045&stc=1&d=1303618922

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=141048&stc=1&d=1303620287

Offhand at 25yd, I am happy with 6-8in groups. I have been shooting actively for about 2yr. The biggest issues I have at distance are 1. Seeing the target or aiming at the same place on a larger target and 2. Being able to hold steady.

My best groups can be cherry picked 5 shot groups. To date my best 5-shot 25yd group is about 2in with handloads and good luck. That IME is exeptional. Typical is the 6-8in 10 shot pattern that I usually put out there. At 5-7yd if I don't pull shots I can typically do a 2in group even at rapid fire rate. That group has gradually been getting smaller over the las couple years. As a new shooter my 7yd rapid fire group wouls be 12-18in.

A couple pics for ref.

I get them all on the plate at ten yards, standing. What are you talking about?

Small size group is nice. But, honestly, for me it's more about a consistent grouping around POA. Pulling to the left or right (with or without up/down) is harder to fix IMO and I've found, for me, relates more to ergonomics of the gun in my hand.

Eh...they're more related than you might think. Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, wrote on his forum "you never go beyond the fundamentals; you just apply them quicker". Most good practical shooters can shoot a very respectable 25 yard group when they want or need to.

Most likely true. I don't know who Brian Enos is but I'm sure he's a better shooter than me. However, in my humble opinion a better test of "practical" shooting ability is an "action" style shooting range with dynamic, moving targets that the shooter is allowed to walk through. I've seen great "bullseye" shooters [fellas who put their weak hand on their hip/extend their 1911 outward and have no trouble shooting a sub 2" group at 25 yards] fall to pieces when asked to WALK (gasp!) through a course and engage some moving targets and NOT engage others.

If I could control who was at my side when doody hits the fan, I'd much rather have a guy who can move, hit what he's aiming at with reasonable regularity, and NOT shoot at things he's not supposed to than some guy who gets 1.5 inch groups on a bullseye target at 25 yards.

This is pretty representative of what I can do rapid fire at 10 yards, 5 shots as fast as I can pull the trigger to the small targets and then a mag dump on the center target with my Glock 17.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/strikefire83/Range%20Pics/G1710Yards.jpg
Am I an expert or a "bullseye" shooter? Certainly NOT. But from what I've seen I'm better than 95% of the yahoos that come onto the public ranges that I frequent (including off duty cops) and I'll continue to improve as time goes on.

This is what I can do @ 25 yards, two rapid-fire mag dumps from each gun to each target. The middle target was shot with a Springfield XDm 4.5 9mm.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/strikefire83/Range%20Pics/25Yards.jpg
Again, I'm certainly no expert bullseye shooter, far from it, and these groups are far from 2"...and I'm sure my fellow keyboard commandos can all do much better than this:D, but from what I've seen, the general public cannot do this. Most of them cannot come close. Shotgun patterns at 3 and 7 yards are the norm. I carry a pistol for self-defense, I'm planning to go up against one maybe two armed criminals [worst case], not a spec-ops force.

I get a little bored with paper targets. I save soup cans and smack them, but the larger calibers tear'm up fast. So I got a few of these.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=All-Outdoors-Impact-Seal-Self-Healing-Bouncing-Target-Dancing-Ball&i=438377

They come in a few shapes and seem to get better at dancing as they collect lead.

My Dad taught me this philosophy in regards to handgun shooting and it works for me...
For SD and general purposes, when you can place 5 rds in 5 inches at 5 yds in 5 seconds consistantly, you and that pistol know each other pretty well.

I've come to the conclusion that if I can do the above, my handgun serves me well enough. I do try to keep 5 rds on a paper plate at 25 yds, but not within 5 seconds. Every once in awhile I'll try to shoot out a bit farther, one at a time, just to see what I can do with whatever handgun I'm shooting... usually minute of soda can at 30+yds, maybe 50 every now and then.

But a 3" semi auto or a snub nose .38 is not a 6" 586 or 15-2 if ya know what I mean (but I have seen videos of Bob Munden doing, well, you know, amazing things with a snub nose wheelgun. Of course he probably puts more rounds downrange daily than I do yearly.)

Bullseye shooting is a whole 'nother thing. My old man had a DW 15-2 w/ an 8 inch barrel and he was consistantly amazingly able to place shots and call them using that thing at 75 yds + (he had great eyesight as well, which helps).

StrikeFire and Peter, looking at your handiwork... as my Dad used to say, "That old boy can shoot a little". ;)

My Dad taught me this philosophy in regards to handgun shooting and it works for me...
For SD and general purposes, when you can place 5 rds in 5 inches at 5 yds in 5 seconds consistantly, you and that pistol know each other pretty well.

...

StrikeFire and Peter, looking at your handiwork... as my Dad used to say, "That old boy can shoot a little"

Thank you sir. I'm a decent shot ;) and I know there are people on this board who can put me to shame. But I also think there's a lot of horsepucky on internet; people saying how amazing their shooting is and what they can do. I think some new shooters get discouraged when they come here (and other places) and hear about all this amazing shooting that "everybody" is supposedly doing, we see few pictures and even fewer videos...and most of it is a steaming pile of pony loaf.

I dig bullseye shooters and I respect them. Anybody who owns guns and likes to shoot them is alright in my book. But ritualized shooting dime-sized groups at 25-30 yards just isn't my thing. :cool:

Lots of good advice above (especially the emphasis on basic technique), but here's another take on a 'good group'. It's call the 4 5's drill. I've seen it printed in at least 3 places. It's not as much a technique drill...it's really a good performance drill. It will keep you humble.
The 4 5's are: 5 shots, in 5 or less seconds, into a 5" circle, at 5 yards. Simple, but hard to do consistently. And you shouldn't 'cheat' by using a .22 with a bull barrel and great sights. Use what you like to shoot, and especially try it with your home SD weapon (assuming it's a pistol). I use my SA 9mm compact, and can't do it consistently yet. Really fun to do with shooting buddies to see who has to buy the beer!

Good shooting,

KCAce

I shot 50 rounds 0f Win 165 FMJs at 25 feet with my Sig P250c 40sw. Standing and two hand holds.

First ten rounds:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9581/s5030465.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/s5030465.jpg/)

Last ten rounds from a box of 50:

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/3933/s5030469.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/s5030469.jpg/)

I patched the holes after each ten round sessions. My shots were one second apart with rest periods between mags. Nevertheless, fatigue sets in and the 40sw loads does beat on your hand.

You'd think this deep into a "how small are your groupings" post, somebody would have posted up a video with proof of these 1-2" claims.
More of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f7XsGp3mLM&feature=related and less typing and pictures would be nice to separate fact from fiction.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06456.jpg

As you can see, the definition of "good groupings" vary. It all depends upon how the question is qualified.

I would say a good grouping is what makes the BG go "UGH!!" :)

Am I an expert or a "bullseye" shooter? Certainly NOT. But from what I've seen I'm better than 95% of the yahoos that come onto the public ranges that I frequent (including off duty cops) and I'll continue to improve as time goes on...

...Again, I'm certainly no expert bullseye shooter, far from it, and these groups are far from 2"...and I'm sure my fellow keyboard commandos can all do much better than this:D, but from what I've seen, the general public cannot do this. Most of them cannot come close. Shotgun patterns at 3 and 7 yards are the norm. I carry a pistol for self-defense, I'm planning to go up against one maybe two armed criminals [worst case], not a spec-ops force.

Well stated and IME quite true.

Based on the responses in this thread, I must be about the worst shooter on THR.

This was my first target of the day, today. I shot from 50 feet, standing, off hand, with the Walther PPQ in the picture, and Federal 115 gr FMJ. 15 rounds, fired at about 3 rounds every 2 seconds.

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9909/target1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/target1.jpg/)


No ego, here. I can't hang with guys putting together 2" groups, standing, off hand, at 25 yards.

I'm curious how long you've all been shooting. I took this up about 6 months ago.

Depends if you want all 10s or Xs, or if your going for a tactical bullseye were you want the target to have more damage and holes.

RBid, pretty damn good for 6 months. I've been shooting pistols since I turned 21, which was 7.5 years ago.

At 10 yards I can do 3in groups more or less, at 25 yards I'm damned lucky if I can keep them under 12 inchs,
But thats about as good as I'll get at my age, 46 and shooting most of them.
So I"m happy when I shoot and don't worry about what someone else can do.

StrikeFire,

Thank you, sir!


olderguns,

Good news, sir! I suspect that you'll never have to defend yourself from a mugger who is 25 yards away :) I have a hunch that you're actually one of the better shooters at your range on any given day.

Most likely true. I don't know who Brian Enos is but I'm sure he's a better shooter than me. However, in my humble opinion a better test of "practical" shooting ability is an "action" style shooting range with dynamic, moving targets that the shooter is allowed to walk through.
That's funny right there.

That's funny right there.

Well, I live to give, fella, I live to give. For those who were confused, I meant walk through the range, not the targets.

Well, I live to give, fella, I live to give. For those who were confused, I meant walk through the range, not the targets.
Oh that's not the funny part
http://www.atlantafirearmstraining.com/uploaded/images/Brian%20Enos.jpg

Hmmm, well, seeing as how his book was first published when I was 6 and he was never mentioned in my CHL class and I've never seen any of his literature for sale at any of the 6 or 7 gun shops that I frequent in several Texas cities...there's no reason why I should have known who this guy is.

Good thing I said that he's "a better shooter than me" ... looks like that statement was a correct one.

Oh that's not the funny part

Yep. ;)

Lessee...you don't know who Brian Enos is, yet you simultaneously presume to know & tell others a "better test of practical shooting ability" than him? All while accusing others of being keyboard commandos? Yep, it's is a real knee slapper, alright. You need to get out more, sonny. :)

Again, I'm certainly no expert bullseye shooter, far from it, and these groups are far from 2"...and I'm sure my fellow keyboard commandos can all do much better than this:D, but from what I've seen, the general public cannot do this. Most of them cannot come close. Shotgun patterns at 3 and 7 yards are the norm. I carry a pistol for self-defense, I'm planning to go up against one maybe two armed criminals [worst case], not a spec-ops force.

With the weapons in the picture I wouldn't even attempt a 25 yard shot. You are doing far better than I am doing. I shoot great groups because I select a weapon that makes it very easy.

MrBorland

Hold on there, porkchop, I never said that this Brian Enos guy y'all all seem to be in love with is wrong. I never said that I knew better than him, that I'm a better shooter than him, or anything of that nature. I merely said that participating in an action shooting/walkthrough course would seem, LOGICALLY, to be a better better indication of your ability to defend yourself against multiple attackers (while at the same time NOT shooting innocent bystanders) than one-handed, slow fire, bullseye style shooting for sub 2" groups with a .22 target pistol or a souped up 1911 race gun. I fail to see how any of this contradicts what Senor Enos said about the best practical shooters "applying the fundamentals, just faster." I disagreed with the poster, not with the the Enos quote.

Thanks, One_Jackal.

And since we're all about name-dropping, the names don't get much bigger than Massad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, and Thunder Ranch...who all advocate the kind of training I just mentioned as much more useful when it comes to surviving a lethal force encounter than traditional bullseye shooting, ie struggling to get 1.5" groups offhand at 25 yards. So maybe some of you could look at what I actually posted about your golden boy before you let your asses overload your mouths.

http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7

http://www.gunsite.com/main/

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/home/index.html

In StrikeFire's defense...

1) Brian Enos isn't Jeff Cooper, Jerry Miculek, etc. He's a guy that some of you have heard of, but I haven't seen or heard the name before. While you may say, "Didn't you just say you've been shooting for six months?", you'd be missing the point. In 8 months (2 months of research, 6 actively shooting), over which I have been on multiple boards, devouring all kinds of information, I have never seen that guy's name. Clearly, he's not a household name, even in the community.

2) Most of the 'great minds' in any pursuit got to that level of respect by challenging what came before, and trying to find a better way.

^Thanks, man. Some people's cows are so sacred that they get their panties in a bunch when it just APPEARS that somebody disagrees with them.

Brian Enos isn't Jeff Cooper, Jerry Miculek, etc. He's a guy that some of you have heard of, but I haven't seen or heard the name before.
It's ok to be ignorant, willfully remaining ignorant is not. www.brianenos.com
Strikefire, I've seen you use the term rapid fire a few times what were your split times on those targets.
I'd also point out that the OP asked about "good groupings" not how fast is fast. but since you brought it up how fast is fast?

mavracer, I read up on Mr. Enos. As I said from the first post, before I knew "who" he is, I FREELY ADMITED that he's a better shooter than me. There are a lot of better shooters than me. For all I know you're a better shooter than me. I don't disagree with the statement that the better you get the "easier" it might get to achieve that vaunted 1.5" 25 yard group.

On the 10 yard target that I posted, I was shooting as fast as I could pull the trigger... five rounds fired at the small targets and then the rest of the mag dumped into the center target. As fast as I could fire.

As for the 25 yard target, I was shooting a little faster than a round a second. I don't have a timer, but that's about right. As you can see, there were fliers. And those were the larger Birchwood Casey targets, like 5 or 6 inches across.

Based on the responses in this thread, I must be about the worst shooter on THR. I can't hang with guys putting together 2" groups, standing, off hand, at 25 yards.

I'm curious how long you've all been shooting. I took this up about 6 months ago.
Over 30 years including Army and USPSA match shooting. Yeah, I was a lousy shooter when I first started too. :D

To all the relatively new shooters who can't imagine how tight shot groups can be obtained, there's hope but you gotta work at it. I can't throw baseball on a consistent basis to make the strike zone; but if I received proper coaching with deliberate and sufficient practice, I am quite certain I would throw better than I can now. Same thing with shooting. Just shooting a lot of rounds at the range won't necessarily improve your shot group size as you maybe perpetuating bad shooting habits.

Here's one deliberate practice I suggest to new shooters. Do a lot of dry fire exercises BUT really watch the front sight to see if it moves when you release the hammer/striker. If your front sight is moving because you are pushing/pulling on the trigger, it will translate to shotgun pattern on the target. On your next range trip, aim at the target and dry fire to see if the front sight moves. If you practiced enough to not move the front sight (or move minimally), commence fire and see if your shot group size is smaller. ;)

If you are willing to spend a little time and effort, there are plenty of threads that discuss stance/grip/trigger control to improve your shot group.

"As fast as I could fire."
"I don't have a timer, but that's about right."
So that I have this straight you really don't know how fast, fast is. but you just know fast is better.:rolleyes:

I often hear of all kinds of incredible groups that people say they can shoot offhand, but rarely ever get to witness them being shot in person....IMO, if you can hit a paper plate every time at 25 yards with a centerfire handgun of carry length, you are a pretty darn good shot.
If I can just keep 90% of the rounds on a 10-inch plate at 25 yards with a fixed-sight defensive pistol, I'm happy. With a .22 target pistol, I'd expect much smaller groups, but I mostly shoot IDPA or Steel Challenge with a 9mm Glock 26, instead of bullseye target competitions.

mavracer

Bottom line is this: I don't know you and I don't really care to get into a pissing contest with you.

I don't have enough money (yet) to attend an Ayoob course, or to go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, but when I do, I'll ask one of the people teaching these classes (many of whom have presented a pistol in a lethal force encounter and lived to tell about it) what's more important:

1) The ability to quickly distinguish between threatening targets and innocent bystanders, deliver several shots reasonably accurately to the threats without hitting the innocents at contact distances, and being able to do all of this while moving/under stress.

2) The ability to shoot a 1.5" group slow-firing at 25 yards in a bullseye setting.

[Pssst, I know what Ayoob/Col Cooper (RIP) would say because I've watched their videos.]

Strikefire,
Is there something in a rule book someplace that says a person can't possess both skills. If there is I missed it.
BTW Mr Cooper is also a hero of mine I love his writings and I also know he was an accomplished pistol shot well capable of sub 3" groups at 25 yards. I beleve he would certainly scoff at your seaming contempt for the study of the fundementals of accurate fire.

So that I have this straight you really don't know how fast, fast is. but you just know fast is better.:rolleyes:

What a snide response. Pretty much anytime you have to use the "roll eyes" smiley, consider not responding or rephrase into something more constructive so that we may have a healthier discourse.

Strikefire,
Is there something in a rule book someplace that says a person can't possess both skills. If there is I missed it.
BTW Mr Cooper is also a hero of mine I love his writings and I also know he was an accomplished pistol shot well capable of sub 3" groups at 25 yards. I beleve he would certainly scoff at your seaming contempt for the study of the fundementals of accurate fire.

I could tell you that I never displayed "contempt for the fundamentals of accurate fire" (whatever the heck that means) but I'll just say this, for someone who holds Col. Cooper as a personal hero, you know precious little about what he taught/advocated.

But don't take my word for it, this is from Fighting Handguns, Jeff Cooper's most famous and celebrated work:

"It’s an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights, but circumstances do arise in which the need for speed is so great, and the range so short, that you must hit by pointing alone, without seeing your gun at all. Pointer fire is not as hard to learn as sighting, once you realize it’s range limitations. Using the 1911 auto-pistol I have found that I can teach the average infantryman to stay on a silhouette at 10 yards – using pointer fire in two shot bursts – more easily that I can get him into that 25 yard bullseye using slow fire and sights. Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges ( 30 feet and under) ….

But up close pointer fire can be murderously effective, and it’s mastery is often the difference between life and death.” Page 97-98.

Sucks when facts and quotes get in the way of a good, incoherent, angry argument, doesn't it?

"Who is a good shot? That would have bothered me awhile back without a definitive answer. I know half a dozen practitioners I consider to be good shots (excluding those present, of course). Let us say a man who can do with his weapon what it was intended to do - always and every time - is a good shot. A man who spends much time in a target-rich environment with unvaried success may be called a good shot. This depends to a certain extent upon the nature of the challenge. If a shooter is never confronted with really hard problems, this standard may not apply. But if a number of challenges were reasonably difficult, I suppose he may be considered to be "a good man with a gun." I know half a dozen or more field marksmen who are really good, and I have seen them prove their point." - Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 14, No. 4, April 2006

Sucks when facts and quotes get in the way of a good, incoherent, angry argument, doesn't it?

Really? That is a tad snarky.

Probably so. But those guys were calling me a jerk and putting words in my mouth and a few quotes from Col. Cooper seem to have shot them down.

Fair enough.

Based on the responses in this thread, I must be about the worst shooter on THR.

So?, based on letters to Penthouse I read in Junior High I have lead a very sheltered life ;)

Going to a competition of whatever sort interest you (Bullseye, IDPA, USPSA, Cowboy Action, etc..). will give you a better idea of where you stand skill wise compared to other entusiast than all the internet post in the world.

I'm a USPSA a C class Production shooter (less than 2% from B class for over a year :banghead: ), and Sharpshooter in IDPA the one time I ran the classifer on it. If you put a paperplate down range from me with a full size Glock I'll keep the vast majority on it, but if I shoot enough I will start flinging a few off now and then.

Don;t know if that helps, but it's my 2 cents, :cool:

A good grouping is smaller than the one you shot last week, but probably much smaller than what you were shooting last year.

i think we scared the op away!

i think we are all good shots.

i think we can all get better.

good luck and good shooting.

murf

It’s an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights...Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges ( 30 feet and under)
It's obvious at least to me that Mr Cooper feels sighted fire at longer ranges (beyond 30 feet) is an important skill as well.

<sigh> This thread's gonna get locked if it doesn't get back on topic.

Had I realized someone's name would've been a distraction, I wouldn't have dropped it. The point was that the better one applies the fundamentals, the better their shooting will be for it, whether it's target or action.

As for me, I don't compete in bullseye. I love target shooting, though, and got to the point where I felt 25 yard cloverleafs became a skill looking for an application, so I started shooting IDPA for balance. I spend a lot of time on speed with accuracy, but still take time at every practice session to work on pure target accuracy. It's worked well for me, and I have a legit shot at a National title later in the year.

As to the OP, he specifically asked about "good groupings", not "good shooting". Let's save additional "good shooting" discussion for another thread, eh? Besides, I think he's aware by now the 2 aren't necessarily the same (though the balanced shooter can be accurate, or fast, or both when the situation calls for it). My standard for good grouping remains 3" @ 25 yards. That's an honest and consistent 5-shot unsupported group, shot without any time constraints, and with a service-sized handgun that's capable of 1" or better. Revolver shooters should be able to do this in double action as well.

Shooting is fun. It's funnest and desirable to be able to hit what you want/need to.

It depends on how it was shot. If you're knocking out a 4 inch group at 7y.. but you have 4 pieces of brass in the air at a time.. thats a pretty good group. If you're slow fire.. You have a bit to work on. I do about a 4" at 15y (and I can only keep about 2 pieces of brass in the air.. takes me less than 5 seconds to get off 5 aimed shots), nothing I have has target sights, and nothing I have is anything special. I don't qualify as a fast shooter. I wouldn't classify myself as overly consistant. I have a shake, and it's present with a gun and without it. I've had people use my lords name in vain when I shoot (and I wasn't shoot much worse than them.. just about 2-3x as fast). I don't think my shooting deserves any sort of praise. Can the guns do better.. probably, but when the 10 ring is missing after a box of ammo.. I'll consider it a go.

I'll repeat.. I'm a 3-4" "rapid (as fast as I can aim it) fire" at 15y. I've always been too chicken to try a double tap at the range.. I don't like getting kicked off.

It's obvious at least to me that Mr Cooper feels sighted fire at longer ranges (beyond 30 feet) is an important skill as well.

True. And I'll give you a shoebox full of twenties if you can point to the post where I said that sighted fire at longer ranges is not important. You can't, because I never said that.

I just said that the OP shouldn't beat himself up if he doesn't have 1.5" groups at 25 yards. And that maybe...just MAYBE...it's a little more important to be able to put 5 or 10 shots into a decent sized group on a human-sized target quickly at 7-10 yards before one agonizes over bullseye shooting.

The point was that the better one applies the fundamentals, the better their shooting will be for it, whether it's target or action.
I agree. Moving on.

It would appear that we have MANY hickock45 esque pistol shooters here... very impressive. Sounds fishy, though.

Not me bro. Hickhock45 could smoke me any day of the week.

Bah.

Hikock45 is nothing! He's an amateur! Man, I could hit that gong from too far back for the camera to even reco-


Oh, woops. I've actually posted a picture of my shooting.


Yeah. He's pretty good. :)

This is what I did on Saturday, with my Phantom. Quick snapshot. 5 shots, one all the way down on the bottom of the paper. 25 yards, standing two hand hold, getting the night sights tapped to the right windage.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Phantom%20targets/Phantomsightinat25yards.jpg

I am, according to the Internet, a bad shot, both rifle and pistol. But I put up honest pictures and now that I got my video system worked out, that will be coming soon, too. Won't do anything but embarrass me, according to many, but that's OK. :)

What's important to some doesn't have to be important for all. The OP may be a purely recreational shooter with no intent of using his XD for defense. Shooting faster may only add cost to his range time.

I think the bullseye guys and action shooting guys can both be right and still not in agreement. It all depends on the desires of the individual.

I think the bullseye guys and action shooting guys can both be right and still not in agreement. It all depends on the desires of the individual.

That is a damn fine point, sir.

Well played.

It would appear that we have MANY hickock45 esque pistol shooters here... very impressive. Sounds fishy, though.
150,000 gun enthusiasts world wide on THR and you think it's fishy that there are some that are very impressive shots?

150,000 gun enthusiasts world wide and you think it's fishy that there are some that are very impressive shots?There are 166,000 members of this particular website. There's probably like a billion gun enthusiasts worldwide. give or take

Depends on what your firing. I can't group for snap with this one.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/4-BarrelPistol-1a.jpg

However, this one will shoot the baking powder out of a biscuit.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/EdBrownKobra.jpg

There are 166,000 members of this particular website.
not sure where that number comes from, according to the members list there are 150403.

150,000 gun enthusiasts world wide and you think it's fishy that there are some that are very impressive shots?

I think that the comment was referring to the volume of great claims that are made on any forum when these types of threads pop up. It's not unbelievable that there are guys out there who make Hikock45 look bad. I'm sure he'd name a few, if he were around. The part that is hard to believe is the number of people who claim to be on that level.

Invariably, somebody comes into threads like these and says, "prove it". When that happens, a small percentage of guys will actually produce photo or video. I'm sure you've seen the dance more than a few times.

Adding to the skepticism is what people actually see at the range. What most of us see most frequently is what we are likely to adopt as our concept of "normal" shooting. In reality, what we usually see is probably pretty bad. Still, an extreme departure from "normal" can be a bit to accept.


Having said all that, I can't prove that people exaggerate on the internet. Maybe it doesn't happen.

not sure where that number comes from, according to the members list there are 150403.

It's on the bottom of the home page where all the forums are listed, right below the list of members currently on the forums -called "THR Statistics".

Says 165,780 members right now.

not sure where that number comes from, according to the members list there are 150403.
Pretty much. Your original post that I responded to did not include "on THR".

Pretty much. Your original post that I responded to did not include "on THR".
Hmm wonder what the discrepency is as I said there are 150,404 listed members on community page.
Yes I added that as that was what I meant sorry for any confusion.
Adding to the skepticism is what people actually see at the range. What most of us see most frequently is what we are likely to adopt as our concept of "normal" shooting.
don't just judge on saturday afternoon open range session. Find an IDPA,USPSA or NRA Bullseye club that has weekly matches, it'll raise the bar for your concept of "normal"

Adding to the skepticism is what people actually see at the range. What most of us see most frequently is what we are likely to adopt as our concept of "normal" shooting.

don't just judge on saturday afternoon open range session. Find an IDPA,USPSA or NRA Bullseye club that has weekly matches, it'll raise the bar for your concept of "normal"

What mavracer said. And many (or most) really good shooters shoot & practice at private ranges, so you're unlikely to see them until/unless you compete against them.

In reality, what we usually see is probably pretty bad.

This part appears to have been missed.

In the paragraph that was partially quoted, I was using "we" in the universal sense, to touch on the human tendency to base ideas of "normalcy" on what they see most frequently, despite the fact that the sample selection is often a poor representation of the actual norm.

I had hoped that, by including the line that I quoted here, I might demonstrate that I am aware that the bar is higher than what I see on a regular basis.

I have also acknowledged in this thread that I believe it to be true that the majority of THR posters are better shooters than me. This is relevant, because I am well above average where I shoot, which I know would not be the case, if the people I saw regularly were a fair representation of "normal" skill level.



...and again, I submit that it is a possibility that some people exaggerate on the internet.

You may disagree. I respect your right to do so, and freely admit that I can't prove it to be true.

Find an IDPA,USPSA or NRA Bullseye club that has weekly matches, it'll raise the bar for your concept of "normal"


Isn't that like going to a AAA baseball game and defining the players as normal? I think normal would be better defined by the folks in the stands.

I may be wrong, but when I think of the average shooter I consider the masses that show up at the range on any given weekend. Not the guys and gals who shoot competitively.

There's no way the average handgun shooter (at least not the ones I've seen) can put most of their shots on a 3x5 index cards at 25 yards.

There are some who would be disappointed if they miss an index card at that distance but I don't consider them to be "average" shooters. If that was the norm I think Bullseye competitors would have to set their targets much further back to determine a winner.

And many (or most) really good shooters shoot & practice at private ranges, so you're unlikely to see them until/unless you compete against them.

That's my point. "Average" shooters are not necessarily "really good" shooters.

Hmm wonder what the discrepency is as I said there are 150,404 listed members on community page.
Yes I added that as that was what I meant sorry for any confusion..As I said, the "discrepancy" was that your original post didn't say "on THR" nor "community page". hence the billion shenanigans/remark nevermind this is actually pretty funny and I'm getting pretty close to calling you a simple liar. It was my mistake on not quoting you. Sorry. Perhaps next time but who cares?

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/SWK-22CCI40grsubsonicat50feet.jpg

This is good for me with my scoped K22 at 50 feet.

My brother can shoot a ragged hole with his scoped Ruger Mark III at 75 feet.

The following pic is good for me with 38sp from a 357 mag at 50 feet.

I'm really really fast and accurate too. I get into gunfights all the time. Multiple bad guys or maybe just people I don't like. I kill them all with a couple of heart shots and then a head shot just to make sure. I never miss and have only been winged once.

Afterwards I usually wake up and have to go pee but only afterwards.:what:

Isn't that like going to a AAA baseball game and defining the players as normal? I think normal would be better defined by the folks in the stands.

I may be wrong, but when I think of the average shooter I consider the masses that show up at the range on any given weekend. Not the guys and gals who shoot competitively.

To be sure, "good" is relative, so "what's good?" threads are difficult terrain to navigate without defining the group of shooters being compared. Merely "good" bullseye shooting won't cut it at some level, but is far and away better than most will see at their local range. That said, to categorically divide shooters into either pro-level competitors or spectators based on whether they compete is a big oversimplification.

Most who compete are just regular guys & gals with families & jobs, no sponsorship, and few (if any) trophies. They spend some (but not big chunks) of time practicing, and do ok within their classification at matches. And talent- and equipment-wise, what got them there is well within most everyone else's ability. IMO, then, I'd consider them "good" shooters overall - there are plenty better and many much worse.

Yep, 3"@25 is "good", IMO. That's my story & I'm stickin' to it. ;)

.3"@25 is "good"..
3" will put some meat on the table. most times

As I said, the "discrepancy" was that your original post didn't say "on THR" nor "community page". hence the billion shenanigans/remark nevermind this is actually pretty funny and I'm getting pretty close to calling you a simple liar. It was my mistake on not quoting you. Sorry. Perhaps next time but who cares?
The discrepancy as in membership numbers, and for the record I beleve 166k includes banned members and 150K represents current membership.
and I realize my post didn't include on THR hence the reason I would say "Yes I added that as that was what I meant sorry for any confusion"
Also for the record you did quote me in post 98 so would you saying you didn't be a mistake or a lie?


Yep, 3"@25 is "good", IMO. That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.
Me too

I'm really really fast and accurate too. I get into gunfights all the time. Multiple bad guys or maybe just people I don't like. I kill them all with a couple of heart shots and then a head shot just to make sure. I never miss and have only been winged once.

Afterwards I usually wake up and have to go pee but only afterwards.:what:
And that's when real life accuracy comes into play. LOL!!

I have several defensive guns that have proven to be 1.5-2" capable/accurate at 25 yards. I, however, am not that consistent, and as others have stated, real life accuracy for even good shots can be about 3" at that range with some consistency. It is nice when the gun is at LEAST as accurate as the shooter. As a matter of fact, it gets to be really annoying when the gun ISN'T as accurate as the shooter.

I have been following this thread for awhile. The whole "what constitutes average" question is interesting to me. Especially the baseball analogy. I consider myself a pretty good ballplayer. If you took everyone in an MLB stadium: players, coaches, fans, employees...I bet I'd be in the top 10% of players. That sounds good, but consider that "average," or 50th percentile, is probably some middle-aged, out-of-shape guy, and the 10% that is better than me includes the players, who are WAY better than me. So basically, the disparity grows exponentially as you reach the higher levels. Also among the 10% better than me, are probably some college players, high school all-stars, or former minor leaguers who are crazy good, maybe 99th percentile of skill, and even THEY wouldn't have a shot in heck of making it on a pro team. That's just the nature of the bell-curve beast.

To tie it back into shooting:
I consider myself above average but definitely not a great pistol shooter. One ragged hole from a full mag at 7 yards is what I consider good. Sometimes the ragged hole is 1" more often it is closer to 2"

At 50 ft (farthest I ever try shooting pistols) if I can hit all my shots within 8" of each other I am pleased, and I know that is above average because most people I see at the range can barely keep all their shots on a silhouette at 7 yards much less 50 feet. Some maybe just don't care. But most I really think that's the best they can do and they are satisfied with that level of performance.

I'd be willing to bet that is top 10% of all shooters (to be defined as people who own a gun and go to the range at least once a year), probably lower half of THR members (who represent a biased representation of the overall population), and probably BOTTOM 10% if I were to ever try to compete.

Thought-provoking post, holdencm9.

I enjoyed it. I'll probably be pondering that while I work through the second half of my workday.

It probably depends on who you ask or what you want to do. If you ask a professional agency what their parameters are, well, it is what it is but for some folk, it's pretty pedestrian, literally. If you ask a handgun hunter what is "good groupings", that'll be different, and then it goes on. If you're asking what is the possible intrinsic accuracy of any given pistol, there's always that.

I did this some time ago, a 9mm 124 grain cast lead load subsequently deemed too hot when the powder manufacturer changed reloading data. The taped shots are 50 yards standing, two hand hold, the un-taped are 50 yards braced, kneeling, IIRC. Not quite rested - didn't have a real rest. I have been told this merely shows what a terrible shot I am, and how I should fall on bended knee to beg (insert favorite gun guru's name here), for ultra expensive lessons. This is also where fans of other firearms jump in to tell me if I had only been shooting a, (insert famous firearm brand name here), that group would have been half that size.
I will try again now that new sights have been installed and sighted in.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Phantom%20targets/Phantomat50yards-1.jpg

Since I can't afford lessons from any gun guru, and I am fond of my CZ pistols, I'll look at that and mutter to myself, "well, not too bad for a fat old man".

50 yards is a hell of a long way. If I were shooting I'll probably miss the target completely.

Thought-provoking post, holdencm9.

Though I used a hypothetical very average competitive shooter as my example, my benchmark for good groupings (3"@25) isn't based on a bell curve. It's really based on what I believe is within reasonable reach for most shooters, within a reasonable time frame, given the motivation, some good instruction and quality practice. It's got nothing to do with how much better than average one is, or how "bad" the average is. IOW, if those in the 50th percentile - or even the 95th - are "bad", it's not because of the bell curve - it's because they haven't achieved what they're likely capable of in the right environment.

50 yards is a hell of a long way. If I were shooting I'll probably miss the target completely.
No, it's fifty yards. And that's the wrong attitude. If you think you can do it, or want to do it, you can do it. nevermind

Armoredman, your "advisors" telling you you need professional coaching are full of crap. Wouldn't that kneeling group fit into the 9/10ring if the sights were adjusted? Grouping like that in the chest @ 50 yards is just fine by me. I like training on the B-29 (half sized silhouette), though. "Aim small, miss small.":)

T'ain't advisers - it's the "experts" on the internet. :) I have this terrible problem - I can't post a target I shot at 10 yards and call it 100 yards. There's a lot of people better than me, and yes, the sights on the Phantom are now both adjusted and new, should be a more interesting group next time. We'll see.
I was just showing that something I consider a personal good job, others here and elsewhere would consider barely adequate, if that. The OP should work to his or her personal best, and ignore those who say disparaging things.

The OP should work to his or her personal best, and ignore those who say disparaging things.


Sage advice for anyone.

Though I used a hypothetical very average competitive shooter as my example, my benchmark for good groupings (3"@25) isn't based on a bell curve. It's really based on what I believe is within reasonable reach for most shooters, within a reasonable time frame, given the motivation, some good instruction and quality practice. It's got nothing to do with how much better than average one is, or how "bad" the average is. IOW, if those in the 50th percentile - or even the 95th - are "bad", it's not because of the bell curve - it's because they haven't achieved what they're likely capable of in the right environment.

I think the definition of "good" inherently DOES depend on what "average" is. Good is not based on what is within reasonable reach, since "reasonable" isn't even the same for everyone. Not everyone can afford lessons and to go to the range 3x a week. So if we establish that good is better than average, the only remaining question is what subset of the population you want to sample for determining your average. Take it from competitive bullseye shooters, okay, 3" at 25 yards may only constitute adequate. Take it from the general population of gun owners at my local range, that would be probably awe-inspiring, and people would come up to you and ask for advice.

It is only natural to want to compare ourselves to our peers. Just as long as we don't delude ourselves into thinking we are all that and a bag of chips because we are the best shooter at the range that day. It's the whole big fish little pond concept. And we should all strive to improve, but I don't think it would be good to have new shooters see this, and someone says that 3" at 25 yards is what constitutes respectable, and they are having a tough time achieving 3" at 7 yards, then they get discouraged and lose interest.

And we should all strive to improve, but I don't think it would be good to have new shooters see this, and someone says that 3" at 25 yards is what constitutes respectable, and they are having a tough time achieving 3" at 7 yards, then they get discouraged and lose interest.

We're in agreement that we want to encourage all shooters, new ones in particular, to strive to improve if that's what they want.

Again, I feel 3"@25 yards is reasonable because it's is very do-able with instruction and practice, so it's my hope that it encourages, rather than discourages new shooters.

Setting the bar artificially low, though, doesn't help anyone in the long run, and IMO many on this thread do a disservice to new shooters by giving them permission to shoot below their potential. And no, you don't have to be a bullseye shooter, need to be a pro, or have go to the range 3 times a week to be able to shoot "good" groups. These are rationalizations.

Some on this thread called others who claim good shooting skills "internet experts", "keyboard commandos", outright liars. Not High Road at all, for one thing, but more importantly, it's another bar-lowering disservice to new shooters. You'd think that a shooting forum would be all about shooting better, but human nature tends to put that secondary to equipment, and yes, ego. There are a number of really good shooters on this forum, but they tend to be much quieter than those who seem to believe they're "good" simply because they're a gun enthusiast. But "believing" don't make it so. The great majority of people believe they're "above average" drivers, after all.

I think it's time for me to move on. I wish all some "good" groupings! :)

Group hug!

I don't think anyone set the bar artificially low, and I never called anyone a liar. Some others had alluded to the fact that some posters may exaggerate slightly, but not me. And I don't think it is a disservice to say to a shooter you are doing pretty good if you can keep all your shots on a 8" target at 25 yards, or 50' or whatever. Maybe it is just personal preference, but to me, knowing I am in the upper quadrant of ALL shooters, but that there are still A LOT of shooters WAY better than me and there is a lot of room for improvement, that is a motivation.

There is a difference between saying "good!" and saying "meh, good enough"

Very good post MrBorland.

I'm settling into work, so I don't have time for a long reply. I wanted to take a moment to state plainly that the discussion put forth by myself and others never suggested that any shooter, at any level, should not try to continually improve.

I think that this thread has demonstrated how subjective 'good' is, as most debate centered around different ideas of what is 'good' (naturally, given the topic).

It appears that the best way to answer the topic question is:
"Don't worry about that, just strive to be the best that you can be."

I've been shooting handguns for 46 years, served 20 years in law enforcement and security, did reserve time in the Army, and have been an active shooter most all my life. I can get occasional 2" or under groups with some guns at 25 yards, standing, two hands. I do not yet own "target" grade guns, although some have been pistolsmithed. I get a kick out of stock guns that shoot well, and on previous occasions, have posted targets I have shot, mostly because I am just happy with the results, and that that particular gun is "up to snuff". Here are a few more targets. While less proof than having ya'll standing next to me, submitting the targets themselves and telling you how I got them is about all I, or any of us, can do. You may believe they are the truth, or not. If you have similar guns, similar skills, you MAY get similar results. I know I have enjoyed seeing others shooting results with a particular gun before I went out to buy one. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06472.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06471.jpg

Good is not based on what is within reasonable reach, since "reasonable" isn't even the same for everyone. Not everyone can afford lessons and to go to the range 3x a week.
So then we should lower the standards of what good is because some can't or won't do what is needed to be good.

So then we should lower the standards of what good is because some can't or won't do what is needed to be good.

Wow, misinterpret much?

All I am saying is that good is relative to average, and the average should be taken from what population you consider your peers. If your peers are competition bullseye shooters, so be it. If your peers are everyone else at the range, that's fine. As long as you aren't deluding yourself about how great you are, talking a big game and bragging about how you can school anyone, what does it matter? Maybe instead of good it should be "proficient" or some other such term, but the point is, it is all relative. Otherwise I guess I am "bad" at everything I do because I am not the best at anything I do, or up to snuff with what some online consider "good" because it is reasonably within reach with a little time and effort. If only I had all the time and effort I could shoot 1" groups with my LCP at 25 yards and shred on the guitar and run a 5 minute mile and hit a baseball 500 feet.

Read about half a page of replies, not going to waste my time as I've seen this discussion enough to have an idea what the rest of them say. In case you are still looking for input, when I was new to handguns (XD .45ACP), my first target at 10 yards looked worse than a shotgun pattern. The spread was about 10" side to side with most in a 6" center (couple boxes of ammo in that target). I worked at it and worked at it, dryfiring, drills, etc. Balancing the penny on the frontsight is probably the best of them all. Got my groups down to a fairly consistant 3" at 25, with a couple escapies here and there. I relaxed on my handgun shooting a bit but I still feel confident stapeling an 8" target at 25 yards and knowing that I can keep them all on the paper with a majority toward the middle, specially if I take my time instead of just burning up ammo so that I can run home and reload more :D

After 4-5 boxes of ammo and dryfire practice, 8" target at 25 is nothing, and you should be able to hit 3" at 10yrds all day long. Just takes a little time and a couple hundred rounds.

How accurate SHOULD you be?? haha, that depends on your application. Remember the generically quoted rules of SD. 3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds.

What if we each had a different definition of what 'good' was, but we all continually worked toward being better?


@ SharpDressedMan,

Nicely done, sir! Good post, as well.

What if we each had a different definition of what 'good' was, but we all continually worked toward being better?

Agreed.

Sharps, nice work, sir. :)

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

That would be a blast! :)

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

I personally can't imagine it being heaven without guns. :D

It makes me glad that we can share our shooting on the internet. It makes me sad that we cannot do it on a sunny afternoon, with all of us in attendance. Maybe we'll rate a day of such comradery and relaxation in the hereafter.

Best post in the thread.

Well said, sir. See you, when we get there.

Well, I'll own up to the fact that I'm not a good shot.

Took the Taurus pt99, the beretta 96 (modified) and the Heritage Arms 25 to the NRA range in VA today.

In in this format.
Weapon
Caliber
Ammo
Shots fired
Group size
odd notes

pt99
9mm
Remington umc 115g
29
7" at 15y (45ft)
1st time shooting this gun. Dont know if it likes this ammo. Everything centered, but a good deal of vertical stringing.. most likely me. Only 4 shots outside of a 4" column in the center. The gun doesnt like 15 rnds in the 15rnd mags.. 14 is fine. No failures other than to feed from full mag

Beretta 96d
40 S&W
22
Remington Golden Sabre, 180 gr
shotgun pattern.. no discernable groups - 15y (45 ft)
kicks like a mule, modified 96D centurion to be DA/SA. No failures of the trigger to reset, but the trigger pin tried to walk itself out

H25
25 Auto
CCI blazer and somethinig else
19 - to failure to fires, appears to be light strikes.. didn't second strike em cci works like a champ
6" at 5y (15ft).
7 outside of the main group.. the other 12 have a spread of 3" wide x 2" high
failure to extract on 1 cci.. could be dirty ammo fouling stuff up.. need to clean chamber. Could be a weak extractor spring. Same thing as a FIE Titan.. Would use as a pocket carry, using only cci ammo.

It depends upon the purpose. The answer is obvious if you're betting upon who can get closest to the bullseye. A 4" group at speed at 15 yards is fine for defense. That same 4" group won't win many competitions.

3 inches from 15 yrds

Snake

Ruger Security Six at 25 yards with 158 grain 357 federal

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/mesinge2/My%20heaters/2.jpg

Maybe my favorite drill that makes you shoot on the ragged edge of both is the 25 yard Bill drill. I run mine with IDPA scoring... You need a timer obviously. Draw and fire 6 rounds on an IDPA target at 25 yards, score by IDPA rules, and see what happens.:)

mesinge, nice shooting...that's just a round fly who landed on the paper off to the right, right? :)
Seriously, nice shooting, sir.
Sharps, if we meet up in the hereafter to go shooting, I'm calling Earth rules for all shots, no angelic assistance! :D

Every breath is a shot. perhaps

Last I heard, 2" at fifty yards is required to ace some courses of fire. I could be wrong though

mesinge, nice shooting...that's just a round fly who landed on the paper off to the right, right? :)
Seriously, nice shooting, sir.
Sharps, if we meet up in the hereafter to go shooting, I'm calling Earth rules for all shots, no angelic assistance! :D
Thanks and nope, no fly. I just pulled one shot. D'oh

All this talk about the hereafter sounds fine and dandy, but I ain't in no hurry. So if any of you are in the Wichita area between now and then PM me, we can meet up at the local indoor range. Win, loose or draw I'll buy the burgers. There's a great burger joint right around the corner.

That's the dang thing about Wichita. It's only about 16-18 hours by car! By the time I got there, the shoot AND the refreshments would be over............:D

You're closer than I am. :)

I went to the range this morning with my PPQ, 100 WWB 115gr, 50 federal 115gr, and a goal. I wanted to slow down, and really try to shoot a great 3-shot group.

I gave it 10 tries (30 rounds).

My best was 1.5". Sadly, it was 3" up and 1" right from POA. The worst was two rounds about 3" apart, with the third on the other side of the 8" target. Yuck.

After that, I put 120 rounds into 8 targets, 15 rounds at a time. It started and ended well, but I had one run where I slung 3 rounds about 8" out at 9 o'clock. I was happier once I corrected that, but I hate having a bad run. I am going to have to go back in the next few days, to punish that paper for laughing at me.

My best was 1.5". Sadly, it was 3" up and 1" right from POA.

What distance were you shooting from?

50 feet. At this range, that's all we can do.

I used to be frustrated if I couldn't shoot cloverleafs at 7 yards. Now that I cannot see so well, anymore, I am happy with substantially larger groups.

practice practice practice. The more you shoot the better. Your most likely jerking because your prob anticipating the recoil. As for the shakes I just try and breath evenly. When I was first getting into handguns my biggest prob was anticipating the recoil (I started with a 357 mag).

Also how you position your hands on the gun plays a big roll. I got some instruction from a fellow range member and it made all the difference in the world for consistency.

Someone said they wanted video evidence.
Here is my proof that I am a terrible Internet pistol shot. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-i8dO6I0U&feature=youtu.be

Here is my proof that I am a terrible Internet pistol shot.

Hey, I would of taken your word on it. :D

I am wondering if hitting a steel target at 25 yards is suppose to be hard. Why did you do a video? I haven't read the entire thread.

Why did you do a video? I haven't read the entire thread.

If you read the thread it will make sense.

"Invariably, somebody comes into threads like these and says, "prove it". When that happens, a small percentage of guys will actually produce photo or video. I'm sure you've seen the dance more than a few times."

Is that what prompted the video?

armoredman, I commend you for manning up and owning what you produce, but I hope you weren't under the impression that I was calling you out. The bolded part of that quote is key.

If I were to call an individual out, I would do so by name. Having said that, I have an extra level of respect for anyone who has the rocks to put it out there, like that. Very cool.

Nice range.

Rbid, no issues. :) Gave me a chance to show off that I finally figured out how to do video with that camera. :)
Eb1, I've been shooting with LEOs who can't hit a B-27 target at 25 yards...any part of it. Rumor has it POST cert will remove the 25 yard line requirement, drop it to 15 for qualification.
I'm not saying I'm any great shakes as a marksman, but I try, when I can see around my gut. ;)
CertainDeaf, that this range,

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/ElzyPearsonrangesatelliteview.jpg

Free, unmonitored, city maintained, one of the best outdoor ranges I've used. South of Casa Grande in Arizona.

Thank you for the positive comments. That was just the third video I've made.

..Free, unmonitored, city maintained, one of the best outdoor ranges I've used. South of Casa Grande in Arizona..

Dang, I'd live there.

T'ain't advisers - it's the "experts" on the internet. :) I have this terrible problem - I can't post a target I shot at 10 yards and call it 100 yards. There's a lot of people better than me, and yes, the sights on the Phantom are now both adjusted and new, should be a more interesting group next time. We'll see.
I was just showing that something I consider a personal good job, others here and elsewhere would consider barely adequate, if that. The OP should work to his or her personal best, and ignore those who say disparaging things.

What sight for the phantom did you get?
I need to get better one for mine.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

As far as shooting at 25 yards, I have a 9 x10 metal plate. When I hear the gong every time I shoot, I am happy

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Accuracy.. it's the little things that make you happy. tm

For a perfect score at 50 yards in Bullseye slowfire you have to have 10 shots touching the 10-Ring which is about 3 1/4 inches, this is shot slowfire you have 10 minutes for 10 shots. At 25 yards same size 10 ring of about 3 1/4 inches and timed fire is 2 5 shot strings at 20 seconds each, rapid fire is 2 5 shot strings at 10 seconds each. All are shot one handed standing with no support allowed. There are lots of perfect targets shot but to my knowledge no one has shot an entire 900 or 2700 point bullseye match with a perfect score.

My CZ SP-01 Phantom is certainly no bullseye gun - it's a full size duty pistol. :) I would never ever be able to turn in a "perfect" bullseye target without Divine intervention. :D
Loic, my target is a 1/2 scale IDPA 3/8" thick AR-500 plate that measures 12x8, including the "head" portion. :) The sights on the Phantom are now Tru-Dot night sights, as the Phantom is the only SP-01 that doesn't come with night sights.
CertainDeaf, during the cooler winter months, I do go more than once a week - keeps my lead pot busy. ;)

.CertainDeaf, during the cooler winter months, I do go more than once a week - keeps my lead pot busy. ;)
Yea, yer a bastard. That's code for I'm jealous.

gr8gift,

i think 100-10X is a "perfect score in bullseye competition imop. i believe the x-ring diameter is 1.5 inches.

if i ever had ten shots in a row touching the x-ring, the target would be in a frame hanging on my wall.

murf

My CZ SP-01 Phantom is certainly no bullseye gun - it's a full size duty pistol. :) I would never ever be able to turn in a "perfect" bullseye target without Divine intervention. :D
Loic, my target is a 1/2 scale IDPA 3/8" thick AR-500 plate that measures 12x8, including the "head" portion. :) The sights on the Phantom are now Tru-Dot night sights, as the Phantom is the only SP-01 that doesn't come with night sights.
CertainDeaf, during the cooler winter months, I do go more than once a week - keeps my lead pot busy. ;)

Ok, thanks, I'm going to look it up. Right all I did was adding a tiny drop if mail poolish, its a bit better but not good enough.
Thanks again

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Loic, CZ-USA carries them - that's how I got mine, Call 1-800-955-4486, press 2 and ask away.