Full auto ownership


PDA






Americanmade
July 8, 2012, 07:37 PM
Im sure you guys have seen this a thousand times before but what are the steps to proceed on owning a full auto firearm.

If you enjoyed reading about "Full auto ownership" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
vaeevictiss
July 8, 2012, 07:43 PM
1. Find the fa you want.
2. Spend anywhere from 3k to 80k and up depending on what it is.
3.have it transferred to an ffl with sot
4. Send form 4 and 200 bucks to atf and forget about it for 6-8 months
5. When it comes back and you pick it up, immediately notify state police that you are taking possession of it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Telekinesis
July 8, 2012, 07:56 PM
5. When it comes back and you pick it up, immediately notify state police that you are taking possession of it.

It's not always necessary to notify the police depending on your state's laws. Other than that, steps 1-4 are exactly right.

The main hassle in transferring any NFA toy is the wait. The price is a pretty big annoyance as well, but that only really affects machine guns. As far as the background check, if you can possess a pistol you can possess a machine gun. The big factor with the price of machine guns is that the registry was closed in 1986, so the supply is frozen. With a small supply and growing demand over the past 25 years, prices have risen to the point that a relatively cheap full auto now costs about $3,000 used.

Swing
July 8, 2012, 10:13 PM
Yeppers, some states don't give a rip, provided the feds are all set.

AlexanderA
July 8, 2012, 10:35 PM
You can have about 95% of the fun with a semiautomatic clone -- with no wait, no $200 stamp, at a fraction of the cost. Remember, with an FA you are paying mostly for the registration papers, and not for the gun itself. If the registry is ever reopened, you would stand to lose a good portion of your "investment."

crazy-mp
July 9, 2012, 03:00 AM
Not entirely true, the Browning BAR for example, not many people would want a 18 lb 30-06 machine gun that feeds from a 20 round box mag. Even manufacturers would most likely not "tool up" to make this gun again, for the simple face that it is a slow, heavy, long machine gun. Most people wanting machine guns want the 10/22, Glock, MP5 or M16, some of the older machine guns would maintain much of their value original MG42, Bren guns, Vickers, West Hurley Thompsons, Sten guns, even some of the old M60's would maintain their value. Some 07/SOTs would make them but a hand built PPSh would still cost several thousand dollars, parts kits would cost as much as the guns.

Bubbles
July 9, 2012, 10:20 AM
OP what is your state of residence? Certain states (IL, NY, etc) prohibit ownership of f/a firearms. So, depending on where you live, step 1 may very well be to relocate.

medalguy
July 9, 2012, 12:27 PM
Add this: If the gun is located in your state, you don't need to involve a SOT. Buy it directly from the seller.

JTW Jr.
July 9, 2012, 08:19 PM
You can have about 95% of the fun with a semiautomatic clone -- with no wait, no $200 stamp, at a fraction of the cost.

True, but the value of those semi's goes down , where almost every FA out there has went up ( some majorly up ) year after year.

ammended steps:
1. Live in a free state that allows you to own NFA items.
2. Find the fa you want.
3. Spend anywhere from 3k to 80k and up depending on what it is.
4.have it transferred to an ffl with sot
5. Send form 4 and 200 bucks to atf and forget about it for 6-8 months
6. Buy LOTS of ammo

another good thing to invest in is aspirin, you see, when you shoot FA stuff, you end up smiling too much and it makes your eyes squint and you get headaches ;)

Shadow 7D
July 9, 2012, 08:31 PM
No, first step is
'get comfortable with being poor and spending more money on ammo for a day out than most people spend on guns per a year.'

remember at 2-300 per 1K and a cyclic rate of 800 RPM, that's over $250 a minute to operate.

JTW Jr.
July 9, 2012, 09:00 PM
Most FA shooters don't do full dumps with each pull of the trigger. Most of them actually prefer shooting at targets.

Once you LEARN to control the trigger, you can manage your ammo bill.

With the UZI I can get single shots at will , same with the MG08 , Tommy and many others. Even the very fastest of the FA's you can keep at 3-5 rounds per burst if you do your part.

Shadow 7D
July 9, 2012, 11:59 PM
Yes, I understand that, but your range sessions are measured in the hundreds or thousands of rounds, compared to the tens of rounds, that was my point, you shoot more ammo with a FA.

AlexanderA
July 10, 2012, 10:23 AM
I have a bunch of FA guns but I never shoot them. Zero ammunition bill. (The point being that everybody's experience is different.)

BTW, one of the major annoyances, to me, in going to Knob Creek is all the noise and dust emanating from the range. I go there strictly for the FA gun show.

jmorris
July 10, 2012, 10:38 AM
You can have about 95% of the fun with a semiautomatic clone Let me guess, you don't have any do you? Everyone that has ever shot one at our farm would give more than +5% fun factor.

JTW Jr.
July 10, 2012, 03:06 PM
Let me guess, you don't have any do you? Everyone that has ever shot one at our farm would give more than +5% fun factor.

my guess is he doesn't , but is one of those that think the registry will open again some day.

AlexanderA
July 10, 2012, 06:29 PM
my guess is he doesn't , but is one of those that think the registry will open again some day.

Read my post #13. I used to be a Class III SOT, and I have some former inventory guns I got to keep after that endeavor, plus some that I bought tax-paid. Needless to say none of these cost me anything like today's going prices.

I would not pay today's going prices for machine guns. (Perhaps because I already have what I have. If I was a newbie maybe that would be different.)

When you consider the high prices for full autos, plus the long wait for transfer approval, plus the need to trust someone with your money for that long period, semiauto clones become more and more attractive. For example, you can have a nice OOW semiauto BAR for about 10% of what a FA one would cost. The semiauto BAR, firing from a closed bolt, is actually way more accurate than the FA BAR.

I don't know if the registry will reopen some day. I hope that it does, and I think that given enough time, that's a distinct possibility.

Shadow 7D
July 11, 2012, 04:00 AM
I always wanted one of the 10/22 FA receivers or conversion trigger groups, but even them, if you can find one, run you in the thousands.

JTW Jr.
July 12, 2012, 12:13 AM
run you in the thousands.

around $8000-$9K lately.

BBDartCA
July 12, 2012, 08:32 PM
Select fire 22lr would be worth the wait. Uzi? Maybe. Too bad a SBR Uzi requires a wait too. BAR - ouch! Need a HELOC to feed one of those even if you handload.

Shadow 7D
July 12, 2012, 09:52 PM
there was a post not long ago by a guy in Czech republic? of a Croatian .22 rifle, fed from a pan mag, FA, said he loved it, neat little gun, and not that expensive, just wish we could get some too....

clarence222
July 14, 2012, 03:17 PM
I currently have 4 stamps and am awaiting approval on the 5th. Except for my suppressor, step 1 for me was convincing the wife. Step 2 was saving the money.

Brockak47
July 14, 2012, 08:23 PM
the easiest way is to just go talk to you class 3 dealer, they will usually help you each step of the way. Locate the gun you want then go talk to your local class 3 dealer. The hardest part is the waiting times involved

Kynoch
July 15, 2012, 12:31 AM
You can have about 95% of the fun with a semiautomatic clone -- with no wait, no $200 stamp, at a fraction of the cost. Remember, with an FA you are paying mostly for the registration papers, and not for the gun itself. If the registry is ever reopened, you would stand to lose a good portion of your "investment."
Not only that, from what I understand the 1986 was well anticipated by licensed traders and many, many thousands of fully automatic firearms that exist in paper only that could now be built-up and sold at any time.

AlexanderA
July 15, 2012, 10:39 AM
Not only that, from what I understand the 1986 was well anticipated by licensed traders and many, many thousands of fully automatic firearms that exist in paper only that could now be built-up and sold at any time.

It's true that manufacturers worked overtime, in the month between congressional passage and the date Reagan signed it, to "paper" as many guns as they could. But the process of manufacture had to reach a certain stage of completion, or else the "papering" would be declared invalid. The ATF checked the manufacturers, and disallowed many such registrations.

In any case, the incomplete guns have long since been completed. There is no "reservoir" of papered guns waiting to be manufactured.

As a side note, most of the hastily papered guns were things like MAC flats and Sten tubes -- in other words the low end of the market.

Kynoch
July 15, 2012, 11:12 PM
It's true that manufacturers worked overtime, in the month between congressional passage and the date Reagan signed it, to "paper" as many guns as they could. But the process of manufacture had to reach a certain stage of completion, or else the "papering" would be declared invalid. The ATF checked the manufacturers, and disallowed many such registrations.

In any case, the incomplete guns have long since been completed. There is no "reservoir" of papered guns waiting to be manufactured.

As a side note, most of the hastily papered guns were things like MAC flats and Sten tubes -- in other words the low end of the market.
"In any case, the incomplete guns have long since been completed. There is no "reservoir" of papered guns waiting to be manufactured."

That's simply not true. No way did the BATF inspect every completed gun/stripped receiver/lightning link. Not even close. And the anticipation was far more than a month.

Let me say it in these terms. If a federal law was coming that would permanently preclude the transfer of fully auto weapons to private individuals who were not specially licensed, a TON of fully auto "guns" would show-up on the market. The effective supply would explode in size. The demand might too...

Telekinesis
July 16, 2012, 12:00 AM
Let me say it in these terms. If a federal law was coming that would permanently preclude the transfer of fully auto weapons to private individuals who were not specially licensed, a TON of fully auto "guns" would show-up on the market. The effective supply would explode in size. The demand might too...

So you're saying that even after 26 years, some manufacturers STILL haven't finished manufacturing the backlog of papered machine guns? That doesn't give me much hope for any gunsmithing I may need in the future...

Ok, lets say you're right and they still have these guns/papers in reserve and not in actual circulation among shooters. Why in the world would someone sit on a gun that cost them less than $200 to make, that now retails for $3,500 used? (Thinking specifically of a Mac 11) And that doesn't even take into consideration some belt fed machine guns that are going for more than $25-50,000 a piece :what: Anyone who had a bunch of registration papers would have cashed out years ago when the prices skyrocketed.

I do believe that if the laws get even more restrictive, there may be more unregistered machine guns in circulation (SMGs are laughably simple to make), but there won't be more transferables.

AlexanderA
July 16, 2012, 12:22 AM
Kynoch: I don't understand what you're trying to say. The cutoff was 26 years ago -- 26 years of escalating prices. Anyone holding a stock of incomplete registered receivers would have had plenty of time, and financial incentive, to complete them and sell them. The downside risk to such a person is that in the event of an overturning or relaxing of the Hughes Amendment, he would lose the inflated value. On the other hand, there's little incentive for holding on to them in the hope of incremental increases in value.

I was a Class III dealer at the time the Hughes Amendment was enacted. Believe me, in the six months or so after May 19, the ATF visited most of the MG manufacturers. Lots and lots of incomplete receivers were deregistered.

The other side of the coin is that the incomplete receivers, for which registration was disallowed, were "non-guns" -- and thus could be sold freely with no regulation whatsoever. This is where the concept of the so-called "80% receiver" comes from. ("80% receiver" is actually a meaningless term. At one time, the test, according to the ATF, was whether the gun could be completed within 8 hours in a fully equipped and staffed machine shop. By that standard, all the disallowed guns should have been registered -- but they weren't. ATF is not known for logical consistency.)

Kynoch
July 16, 2012, 04:11 AM
So you're saying that even after 26 years, some manufacturers STILL haven't finished manufacturing the backlog of papered machine guns? That doesn't give me much hope for any gunsmithing I may need in the future...

Ok, lets say you're right and they still have these guns/papers in reserve and not in actual circulation among shooters. Why in the world would someone sit on a gun that cost them less than $200 to make, that now retails for $3,500 used? (Thinking specifically of a Mac 11) And that doesn't even take into consideration some belt fed machine guns that are going for more than $25-50,000 a piece :what: Anyone who had a bunch of registration papers would have cashed out years ago when the prices skyrocketed.

I do believe that if the laws get even more restrictive, there may be more unregistered machine guns in circulation (SMGs are laughably simple to make), but there won't be more transferables.
Please don't suggest that I said they were backlogged in production all these years. I said no such thing.

The guns are only getting more valuable. Dump them on the market and the price/unit drops. Begin dumping them from the very beginning in 1986 and today's prices would never have been realized -- at least not yet.

AlexanderA
July 16, 2012, 09:21 AM
The guns are only getting more valuable. Dump them on the market and the price/unit drops. Begin dumping them from the very beginning in 1986 and today's prices would never have been realized -- at least not yet.

And here is the point of disagreement: your whole theory rests on the assumption that there is a huge reservoir of registered, incomplete guns left to "dump." This assumption, from what I can see, is totally incorrect.

The number of guns that were in process on May 19, 1986, (and which were finally accepted for registration by the ATF) were sold within a few years, for the most part before the big runup in prices. In fact the big runup in prices was partly due to the exhaustion of those supplies. Sure, people like Oefinger (DLO) may have a few sideplates available to be assembled, but this doesn't have a significant effect on the market.

The second fallacy in your argument is the belief that the law is headed for further restrictions on machine guns, when more probably the opposite is true.

Kynoch
July 16, 2012, 01:50 PM
And here is the point of disagreement: your whole theory rests on the assumption that there is a huge reservoir of registered, incomplete guns left to "dump." This assumption, from what I can see, is totally incorrect.

The number of guns that were in process on May 19, 1986, (and which were finally accepted for registration by the ATF) were sold within a few years, for the most part before the big runup in prices. In fact the big runup in prices was partly due to the exhaustion of those supplies. Sure, people like Oefinger (DLO) may have a few sideplates available to be assembled, but this doesn't have a significant effect on the market.

The second fallacy in your argument is the belief that the law is headed for further restrictions on machine guns, when more probably the opposite is true.
You have any proof?

leadcounsel
July 16, 2012, 04:10 PM
An incredibly expensive hobby....

I love guns as much as the next guy, but there's no room for FA in my life or budget. Kudos to those that have time/money.

Too much paperwork to keep track of and the ammo is expensive.

I've fired a lot of FA in my time in the Army... Uzi, MP5s, MG42, RPK, AK47 variants, SCAR in several calibers, M4, Miniguns (thounsands of rounds)...

If you're going to get a full auto and spend tens of thousands of dollars, ask yourself why? You aren't going to use it for self-defense or home defense. And if you're just going to go fire a few short bursts, then what's the point?

I think that the 'thrill' of FA will get old after a few paychecks worth of ammo are blasted in a range trip...

But to each their own.

JTW Jr.
July 16, 2012, 07:53 PM
If you're going to get a full auto and spend tens of thousands of dollars, ask yourself why?

ask yourself why not ?

I saw plenty of folks trying to sell off ar15 & other black rifles during the economy downslide, all at a loss. Full auto stuff, hmm when was the last time you saw prices drop ?

Ian
July 16, 2012, 09:45 PM
Actually, the last time prices dropped was when the economy tanked in 08, and the market still hasn't recovered. I bought my machine gun for 60% of what the previous owner paid in 2005.

Just because the supply if fixed doesn't mean they aren't still subject to market forces.

leadcounsel
July 16, 2012, 11:22 PM
Why not? $$$$$$$$$$

$20,000 buys a lot of more useful things than a full auto rifle that eats ammo and serves no practical purpose... Spare me the conversation about hobbies. I understand it. Just offering that it's a big investment just to shoot full auto... a $1000 comparable semi-auto rifle does everything you need with a lot less cost and hassle.

And if through some miracle full autos were once again fully legal and new ones able to be made... you'd lose nearly all of your investment in the gun.

Admittedly, that's fantasy...

JTW Jr.
July 18, 2012, 01:04 AM
Yet people drive to and from work daily in 40, 60 and 70K cars.

Imagine that , people buy what they want with their money.

And no, a semi-auto does not do everything a FA does. I see enough guys at the range trying to fake full auto with their AR's & AK's. It's not the same, not even close.

Either you get it , or you don't , those that do, understand. Those that don't, don't have to, which is what makes this such a great country.

:)

clarence222
July 19, 2012, 01:44 AM
Why?

Because I wanted to. I now have three FAs waiting approval on the fourth. Currently looking for number five. Call it investing or hobby or whatever you want. I simply call it fun. Granted I'm no where near wealthy, however my wife and I live within our means and it doesn't bother me to save for what I want.

The simple fact is that you could ask yourself or anyone else why they need any gun. Hunting maybe but the how many people in the US really need to hunt anymore, there are supermarkets everywhere. But for those that do need to hunt I could see an 870 or Mossberg 500. If you need a hunting rifle an inexpensive 30-06 will most certainly do the job. For home or personal defense the shotgun will cover the home and a 357 will provide all the personal defense one need.

So I guess the real question should be why the $1000 semi auto?

You certainly don't need one.

smkummer
July 21, 2012, 09:40 AM
DLO may still have some sten tubes and 1919 sideplates. Erb may still have a couple of MP40 tubes. The market did a modest correction from late 2008 until about early 2011, meaning a drop in price but it appears that is over now. I have told myself that this is my last form 4 unless I see a good deal. the veternans heritage presevation act is one of the bills that could come to frutition and soften the market again and I hope it happens. I hope the hughes ammendment is overturned and my 50K "investment" drops to maybe $15K. But that appears less likely soon. So to play legally, one has to pay. And a true full auto puts a smile on anyones face the first time. A reising, tube sten, mac (with a lage upper) or MK760 are all available for about $4K and are fun guns.

crazy-mp
July 21, 2012, 02:50 PM
I always wanted one of the 10/22 FA receivers or conversion trigger groups, but even them, if you can find one, run you in the thousands.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=294401542

One sold on Gunbroker a couple of days ago registered Norrell 10/22 trigger group 10K

Snook135
August 12, 2012, 11:38 PM
I love my FA MG's... And honestly say you shoot 9 boxes of 9mm your spending exactly or more than I reload a 1,000 rounds for. My advice for FA is buy a reloading press!

FA's are freaking awesome! I used to be the guy saying, man I dont even want one of those, I can't afford the ammo. But I probally shoot at least 1,000 rounds a month just from my FA.

AlexanderA
August 13, 2012, 10:00 AM
I get more joy from watching my FA's go up in value than from shooting them. Actually, these two goals work at cross purposes: putting wear on them has an adverse effect on their value. Shooting FA's is like burning money. Would you burn money just for the momentary thrill you might get? There's also the idea of preserving a heritage for future generations, especially since legal FA's have been capped.

Snook135
August 13, 2012, 06:36 PM
I buy firearms to shoot them, not let them sit... Of course I shoot some more than others. But I don't buy firearms as an investment. I also buy at the best price, but Its nice to always be ahead of the value...

JTW Jr.
August 13, 2012, 07:43 PM
Shooting FA's is like burning money

might be like burning your money...but these are way too much fun to not enjoy.

If you use them and maintain them, the values don't decrease that much.....of course the people I shoot with would rather use them than have them sit and collect dust.

HK182
August 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
Hey guys, I don't own any fa, but I want to. I think part of the need to own one is because of what the 2nd amendment says and stands for. Btw, this site is awesome, thanks all for the wealth of info.

bbuddtec
August 13, 2012, 10:24 PM
....what, .... no pics????

..."Haarumphh!!"

jmorris
August 13, 2012, 10:54 PM
I can tell you why I didn't have any before I did. I thought it took a bunch of legal hoops I had to jump through. Once I found out all I needed to do was get Quicken will maker (no I don't own stock) and have at it, made it a different game.

45ACPGUY
August 26, 2012, 04:44 PM
I always said I don't need nothing like that. Then about 7yrs ago I went to my first MG shoot! And I have been in love with NFA stuff ever since. It took me a while to figger out what it took to own FA! Now the last five items I have bought have been NFA's. (3 MG's) (2 SBR's).
You know you don't burn as much ammo as you think you will, you run a few mags through and then you shoot all the stuff you have always shoot 1911's,AK's and other stuff. MG's are like land, thay can not make and sell to the public any more so pretty safe investment. I'm on the lower end of MG world! $4K to $6K. And I don't have the money to play in the Thompson $ range. Would if I could! I think they are easier to sell than the $20,000 ones. But still very fun. And you can always sell....just my 2cents

Jim K
August 29, 2012, 11:58 AM
Another note on interstate transfer.

If the gun is a C&R (all WWII and before are), AND the out-of-state transferee (buyer) has a C&R FFL, the gun can be shipped/taken directly to him without the need of a class 3 SOT dealer in his state. If the transferor (seller) is unlicensed or a non-SOT dealer, there is no need for a Class 3 dealer in either state.

Of course BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the tax (if applicable) must come before the actual transfer takes place.

Jim

zignal_zero
August 30, 2012, 08:59 AM
No practical purpose?!?! Mine is my car gun. Seriously, my SMG has taken the place of the rifle I used to tote everywhere (fl's wonderful). So, no, mine's not just a hobby or toy. Its a legitimate SD tool.

That said - why? Because they're freakin awesome! Everyone knows it. Heck, goes ask a 9yr old. They can also be quite effective, like mine - it's heavy, short, shoulderable, slow rate of fire, equipped with both a flashlight and an eotech.

A full auto and a silencer have been my firearm goal since I was a child. My toy guns had suppressors on them. I finally got an SMG and I will be ordering my silencer in two weeks. I'm finally "done", there's nothingelse I really want. I have a carry piece and an M4gery or SMG for the car. I don't want a big collection, I just want a couple guns that I truly love.

I almost built an SBR M11as a semi for the cost savings compared to going full auto. My wife talked me into the machinegun. She believed I would never be truly happy and always look at the SBR with anger and regret. I'm glad she pushed me into going all the way :)

AlexanderA
August 30, 2012, 10:16 AM
Seriously, my SMG has taken the place of the rifle I used to tote everywhere (fl's wonderful). So, no, mine's not just a hobby or toy. Its a legitimate SD tool.

With all due respect, you need to rethink this. If you ever have to actually use it for SD, your legal position won't be too good. (Juries tend to think that using a SMG for "self defense" is "overkill" -- and that's putting it mildly.)

Another issue is that keeping a SMG in the car poses a theft risk. I once sold a Browning beltfed to a guy who later had it stolen out of the trunk of his car. This was a big deal to the local police and the ATF (thankfully, the gun was eventually recovered, but not some of the accessories that were with it).

I know that you're in Florida, but here in Virginia, routinely carrying a FA in your car could get you into legal trouble if it came to light (due to the Uniform Machine Gun Act, which is also the law in several other states).

zignal_zero
August 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
I've considered all of these possibilities, but until I finish building my AK pistol I still consider it the most appropriate tool for what purpose it serves. Thank you thouh :)

Edit to add - yea, I forgot to mention the AK pistol when I said I was "done" oops.

If you enjoyed reading about "Full auto ownership" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!